From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V10 #346 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Thursday, September 13 2001 Volume 10 : Number 346 Today's Subjects: ----------------- CNN.com - Debris found 3 miles from Pennsylvania crash - Septembe r 13, 2001 ["Bachman, Michael" ] Re: CNN.com - Debris found 3 miles from Pennsylvania crash - Septembe r 13, 2001 [Tom Clark ] make of it what you will [bayard ] Re: make of it what you will [Tom Clark ] dancing on god's thumb ["Edward of Sim" ] Re: make of it what you will [Capuchin ] Re: make of it what you will ["Maximilian Lang" ] Re: make of it what you will ["Maximilian Lang" ] Re: more LJ pictures - (nice ones!) [bayard ] in da air ["Walker, Charles" ] where's my IV?? ["Walker, Charles" ] Re: in da air ["victorian squid" ] Re: Security [Eleanore Adams ] Am I nor Feg? ["Viola Rockiss" ] A little humour [Brian Cully ] Re: more WTC pictures - peaceful ones [grutness@surf4nix.com (James Digna] Re: Canada? [grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan)] I wanna be sedated ["Randy R." ] weird [Glen Uber ] Historical digressions -- my favorite! [Christopher Gross Subject: CNN.com - Debris found 3 miles from Pennsylvania crash - Septembe r 13, 2001 http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/13/penn.attack/ This is interesting. If the investigators are finding debris miles away from the crash, that would mean Flight 93 broke apart before crashing. Which means the rumor that Eb heard about the F-16 taking Flight 93 down could be true, or maybe the hijackers did have a bomb that went off. Either way it sounds like the plane experienced something that caused it to break apart before ground impact. Michael B. [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of CNN.com - Debris found 3 miles from Pennsylvania crash - September 13, 2001.url] Message-ID: From: Eb Reply-To: Eb To: Fgz Subject: what else? Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:29:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > The heros on Flight 93 took care of the sub-human hijackers after taking a >vote >that Flight 93 wasn't going to reach the destination of the hijackers. They >gave >up their lives, but saved lives by crashing into rural Pennsylvania instead >of >the hijackers intended target. Casual note for the media-conspiracy-minded: I saw a White House press conference today (damn, I can't remember which person was speaking), and a reporter asked a question about rumors that one of our own F-16's shot down Flight 93. The broadcast immediately cut back to the anchor desk, without showing the speaker's answer! Over a decade ago when I was in New York, I walked over to the adjacent WTC, tentatively intending to take the elevator to the top with the other tourists. The long line discouraged me, and I blew it off. I didn't expect the towers themselves would get blown off, before I had another chance to do so. Eb, who will curious to see what Amtrak stock does, when the market reopens ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:46:42 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: what else? on 9/13/01 1:29 PM, Eb at ElBroome@earthlink.net wrote: > Casual note for the media-conspiracy-minded: I saw a White House press > conference today (damn, I can't remember which person was speaking), and a > reporter asked a question about rumors that one of our own F-16's shot down > Flight 93. The broadcast immediately cut back to the anchor desk, without > showing the speaker's answer! > FBI press conference in PA. just confirmed absolutely no military involvement. It looked like a GE refrigerator in the background though... > > Eb, who will curious to see what Amtrak stock does, when the market reopens > Does Amtrak have stock? I thought they were federally subsidized. - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:51:17 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: CNN.com - Debris found 3 miles from Pennsylvania crash - Septembe r 13, 2001 on 9/13/01 1:45 PM, Bachman, Michael at Michael.Bachman@fanucrobotics.com wrote: > This is interesting. If the investigators are finding debris > miles away from the crash, that would mean Flight 93 broke apart > before crashing. Which means the rumor that Eb heard about the F-16 > taking Flight 93 down could be true, or maybe the hijackers did have > a bomb that went off. Either way it sounds like the plane experienced > something that caused it to break apart before ground impact. FBI news conference stated the debris to be paper and other light objects and a 9 knot wind that day. - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:51:43 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: what else? On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Eb wrote: > > The heros on Flight 93 took care of the sub-human hijackers after taking a > >vote > >that Flight 93 wasn't going to reach the destination of the hijackers. They > >gave > >up their lives, but saved lives by crashing into rural Pennsylvania instead > >of > >the hijackers intended target. > > Casual note for the media-conspiracy-minded: I saw a White House press > conference today (damn, I can't remember which person was speaking), and a > reporter asked a question about rumors that one of our own F-16's shot down > Flight 93. The broadcast immediately cut back to the anchor desk, without > showing the speaker's answer! whether or not the heroes in question were on board the plane, tackling hijackers in the certain knowledge that they were sacrificing any chance of getting out alive, or giving or following the horrible order to shoot down a civilian aircraft with dozens of innocent citizens, they were still heroes, weren't they? they saved a lot of lives at a terrible personal cost. as good a working definition of "hero" as any other i know. > tourists. The long line discouraged me, and I blew it off. I didn't expect i thought the view from the observation decks was one of the best bang-for-buck experiences of any 'strictly tourist' activity (without any particular artistic or historical merit; a museum or the parthenon are in a different category for me) > Eb, who will curious to see what Amtrak stock does, when the market reopens it's almost impossible to get on their website, that's for sure. i wish i'd bought the damned ticket to atlanta while i still had the chance. i know it's crass and selfish but i really hope they open national airport by saturday. i have a ticket to go see my girlfriend that may not be honored, and i just don't want to be apart from her right now. - -- d. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:08:23 -0700 (PDT) From: bayard Subject: make of it what you will http://dailynews.philly.com/content/daily%5Fnews/2001/09/13/local/DEVI13C.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:12:27 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: make of it what you will on 9/13/01 2:08 PM, bayard at bayard@bitmine.net wrote: > http://dailynews.philly.com/content/daily%5Fnews/2001/09/13/local/DEVI13C.htm > looks to me like jack valenti - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:42:07 +0100 From: "Edward of Sim" Subject: dancing on god's thumb Hi, fellow-fegs, just uncloaking briefly owing to recent events and current discussion. How staggering what has happened and how awful. I wanted to voice up, though, that I agree with nearly all of what Jeme says -- then again, the way I'm reading the other posts, so do most of the people who are arguing with him. I pray that there can be any "response" to what has happened that will not create further tragedy, for anyone. I doubt that it is likely. I am glad that our New York fegs are all "okay". And thank you all for sharing your experiences, it defies my imagination to think of being in the vicinity of any of what has happened. It defies my imagination to have seen it at all, on t.v., over and over. Peace and love to you all, EoS +x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+ Edward of Sim a Californian in Lancashire edward@mysticinsect.freeserve.co.uk http://www.mysticinsect.freeserve.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:43:34 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: Let's Have A War! not sure these lyrics are correct... "Let's Have A War" by Fear Let's have a War So you can all Die. Let's Have a War We can all use our Brains. Let's Have a War Redeem this space. Let's have a War We have this place. Let's have a War Jack up the Dow Jones Let's have a War We can save New Jersey Let's have a War Blame it on the Middle Class Let's have a War Like rats in a cage. Let's have a War Sell the rights to the networks Let's have a War Nevermind about that last time. Let's have a War Give life a little twist. Let's have a War The Enemy's Within...... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:02:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: make of it what you will On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Tom Clark wrote: > on 9/13/01 2:08 PM, bayard at bayard@bitmine.net wrote: > > http://dailynews.philly.com/content/daily%5Fnews/2001/09/13/local/DEVI13C.htm > > looks to me like jack valenti Isn't that what the article said? Or are you not familiar with his other Names? J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:17:25 -0400 From: "Maximilian Lang" Subject: Re: make of it what you will >http://dailynews.philly.com/content/daily%5Fnews/2001/09/13/local/DEVI13C.htm That my friends is why I read the Inquirer. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:18:16 -0400 From: "Maximilian Lang" Subject: Re: make of it what you will >>on 9/13/01 2:08 PM, bayard at bayard@bitmine.net wrote: > > > >http://dailynews.philly.com/content/daily%5Fnews/2001/09/13/local/DEVI13C.htm > > > > >looks to me like jack valenti > >-tc Now that is funny. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:25:58 -0700 (PDT) From: bayard Subject: Re: more LJ pictures - (nice ones!) On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, forces' sweetheart wrote: > No he already did that when he had sex with Bayard! lj, for the last time, YOU'RE supposed to have sex with the male fegs! I've been assigned the females. Gad, I thought we covered this.... Of course, the whole sexual orientation thing makes it even more complicated... but I'm sure everyone will be happy in the end, or I hope they will be. =b "I did not have fegsual relations with that man, Ken Weingold..." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:23:30 -0700 From: "Walker, Charles" Subject: in da air > In the air, the cabin crew are defacto the law. As such, they should have > the means to overpower anyone who is unarmed. And no-one should be armed on > a plane (and for that reason I too agree with the Quail). chas in LA replies; in the fifties they had air marshalls, essentially cops, on every flight. there was no violence or hijacking until they took them off and then in the 60's and 70's hijacking became an international sport of some kind or other. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 15:26:09 -0700 From: "Walker, Charles" Subject: where's my IV?? >Anything is a weapon if you hold it right. >Perhaps all flights should come with IV drips that just sedated everyone >for the duration. chas in LA replies: i'd support that! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:07:08 -0700 From: "victorian squid" Subject: Re: in da air >chas in LA replies; in the fifties they had air marshalls, essentially cops, >on every flight. there was no violence or hijacking until they took them off They were not on every flight. They were on random flights. There still are air marshalls, but they no longer actually go on planes so what the point of them is is beyond me. I'm also not sure who was paying for them, whether it was the airlines, Federal, State, or City governments, or some combination of those. I do know that whoever it was decided that having them in the air was an unnecessary expense, since they apparently came to the conclusion that we were not at significant enough risk to warrant an "air police" presence, or at least to warrant their paying for it. loveonya, susan Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:13:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Eleanore Adams Subject: Re: Security Ok, now this is just silly..... It is good, you made me smile; I have been very depressed for the past few days...But knock out gas is just silly (we won't even go into medical conditions, logistics, and constitutional rights...). eleanore :-) - --- tclark@reardensteel.com wrote: > > On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Capuchin wrote: > > > >> My trumpet instructor had the best suggestion and > I was as shocked as > >> he was that it hadn't yet been suggested: Secure > the cockpit. Lock > >> it down and don't let anybody in or out. Duh. > It's a small measure > >> that could really help save lives. > > > > We were talking about this at the office yesterday. > Someone suggested > completely sealing off the cockpit and providing a > video feed into it from > the cabin. If the captain determines there's a life > threatening situation, > he presses a button that releases knock out gas into > the cabin. Probably not > feasible, but interesting. > > -tc > > > __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 00:03:05 +0000 From: "Viola Rockiss" Subject: Am I nor Feg? HAl wrote: >who went for a six-mile solo contemplative hike in Rocky Mountain >National Park yesterday Good for you Hal. Sounds beautiful. Ive been splitting my day-lillies. No, it dosnt solve a thing, but it keeps you more balanced. - ------------ Jeme: >.Our very best move toward preventing future attacks is elimination >of the >inequalities and tyrannies that cause people to lash out >against perceived >power. When there is equality, there is no power >to lash out against. While I would agree that less tyranny in the world would probobly lead to less violence(which I think may be what you were trying to say), I cant quite agree with the above statement as it stands. I dont think that equality necissarily produces equity and equality without equity -can- be a form of tyranny. As Blake said, the same law for the lion and the ox is oppression. Also, as for the theory that equal people have no power to lash out against, consider this. What if I fell madly in love/lust with you. But you, oh woe betide, had a heart true to Vivian. Are you saying I would feel no acrimony, no frustration, no desire to put something in her shampoo so all her splendiferous hair falls out and she developes oozing postuales in unseemly places? And are you saying that after a drink or two I might not at least kick her in the shins if the opportunity presented itself? Human nature is built to want the best for oneself and to resent whatever stands in one's way to an often misguided "percieved" good. Im not sure politics, or equality is capable of "solving" this tendency. And if youre perceived good is the extermination of the ungodly ... It seems to me that while what you said had truth to it, it was abit of an overstatement. And overstatement can drive people away from what they might otherwise welcome. I know personally it drives me away from ideas I could be open to. And I find that very frustrating. It makes me feel antagonistic when there is no real reason for such antagonism. I like what Doug said, and Miles quoted,-- how we should focus on "how fragile and precious the connections between us are." I like the idea of treating each other here not only with respect, but with care. Lots of care. - ---------------- Chas: >new york is the one city i know that can take anything that >anyone can dish out In my heart Im still a native New Yorker and I have always held that while NYers may be abit abrasive and unsentimental, we are golden when the chips are down. - ------------------- Thanks Susan for the firemen's link. - -------------- Ken on Woj's method of Nanooking: >Dork. ;-) This post is the perfect lead in to the glorius news of "Feg's" inclusion in the new OED. Its definition reads " A geek. A dork. Often with eccentric ideas relating to computer, library or prawn science. Sometimes also classified as a dissident, intellectual or pervert. Choice of headwear often inadvisable(see entry for "The Man with the Lightbulb Head.) AKA "a fucking fuckity fuck." - -------------- James: Thanks for distracting us with one of nature's best drugs. >>Some lions mate over 50 times a day. >> >>(I still want to be a pig in my next life...quality over quantity.) Agreed. Once in the zoo when Katie was little we saw a group of adults mesmerized in front of the lion's cage. Yup, the lions were doing it. Id say 90 seconds. If that. And yes, the lion roared at the end, but you know what, the lioness didnt even wake up! Thank you for the now bookmarked wit and wisdom of Tractorjunk.com - ----------------- For fartin Feg's sake, Kay, whose contemplating plastic surgery. 3 guesses which body part I want from what animal. PS I havent fucked Bayard. (sniff. snifff) Am I not Feg? Or is he just waiting for me to get my new pig cunt? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 20:05:04 -0400 From: Brian Cully Subject: A little humour This made me laugh, which is something in precious short supply these days: http://members-http-1.rwc1.sfba.home.net/biffsparky/WTC/ - -bjc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:06:48 +1200 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: Re: more WTC pictures - peaceful ones Tom said: > That elevator was so fast that I would suspect little children could >elevate off the floor as it descended. IIRC my physics correctly, if they could anyone could. James James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand. =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= -=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- You talk to me as if from a distance -.-=-.- And I reply with impressions chosen from another time =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-. (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:07:07 +1200 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: Re: Canada? >Here's something that will soon be circulated En Mass to everyone. So I >figured I'd jump the gun and get you all started on it. an interesting article, and one that is probably true to an extent. But it contains some whopping glossing over of the truth and some downright lies. This week, of all weeks, I don't want to write anything anti-American, but this article is just so full of shit that I've got to respond. >As long as 60 years ago when I first started to read newspapers, I read of >floods on the Yellow River and Yangtse. Who rushed in with men and money >to help? The Americans did. And the British. And the French. And the Italians. >They have helped control floods on the Nile, the Amazon, the Ganges, and >the Niger. Today the rich bottom land of the Mississippi is under water >and no foreign land has sent a dollar to help. Possibly if the US hadn't kept saying what a rich and powerful nation it was, more countries would have offered help. >Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out >of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars >and forgave other billions in debts. none of those countries is today >paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. True. And if it had been the US that had its infrastructure (and superstructure) ripped out, and europe was still rich, then it would have been the other way round. >When the Franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans >who propped it up and the reward was to be insulted and swindled on the >streets of Paris.....I was there.....I saw it. hell - that would happen no matter who helped out. A proud country hates being helped from outside. Especially if (a) they have been overrun by foreign superpowers over the previous 50 years; (b) used to be the major world power, and (c) are French. >When distant cities are hit by earthquake, it's the United States that >hurries in to help. Managua, Nicaragua is one of the most recent examples. ...which ISTR they have to do according to the Monroe Doctrine. The British also helped in Managua. >Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo >Jet, the Lockheed TriStar, or the Douglass 10? If so, why don't they fly >them. Why do all international lines except Russian fly American planes. Because approximately 70% of air travel is done through American companies, or those largely financed from the US. And those companies refuse to use non-American planes. So there's no financial incentive for overseas airline companies to build planes. Look at the trouble that British Airways and Air France had at getting the Concorde accepted internationally. >Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on >the moon? simple. (a) America was in a race with the USSR to do so (only the USSR couldn't really see the point of putting humans in danger when they could send unmanned, robotic craft there). And once it had been done successfully, there was little point in trying. >You talk about scandals and the Americans put theirs right in the store >window for everybody to look at. Countries overseas would never do that. That's why Profumo/Keeler made front page headlines and Kennedy/Monroe didn't, I suppose. Having said that, if by 'scandal' you mean a sex scandal like that, most countries realise that a politician's sexuality has nothing whatsoever to do with whether he or she is a good leader, so they don't waste valuable column inches on it. Only the US and UK seem bothered with such things. As to financial and other scandals, every western democracy puts those 'in the shop window'. I suspect that Canadians are just so near the US that their news coverage is saturated by US news (which rarely, if ever, mentions anything that happens outside America). > Even the draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our >streets most of them, they break Canadian laws, and getting American >dollars from Ma and Pa at home to spend here. Did the Canadian authorities arrest them and send them home? Perhaps they would have preferred it if the US military police continuously raided across the Canadian border? >When the Americans get out of this bind (as they will) who could blame >them if they said "the hell with the rest of the world....let someone else >build or repair foreign dams or design foreign buildings that won't shake >apart in earthquakes." When the railways of France, Germany, and India >were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. In the case of India and France, Americans and British rebuilt them together. >When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke nobody >loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. Did the US say "we have financial trouble and need help"? Have they EVER said that about anything? No. So the rest of the world thinks they are all-powerful and as rich as Croesus. No wonder no-one offered to help. Unlike the US, other countries don't simply rush in to help out without being asked. And given the US's record on what it thinks "helping out" involves, that's understandable. Given the US's response to other countries "helping out" in the same way, perhaps that's understandable. ISTR that that was the description that the USSR gave to its attempts to stabilise the government in Afghanistan. It was asked in by the Afghan government, who were on the brink of facing overthrow from hard-line Islamic rebels. International pressure and the impossibility of the task led to soviet withdrawal. I leave it to your judgement as to whether the current regime there is any better than the one that the USSR was trying to help. >I can name you five thousand times when the Americans raced to the help of >other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else >raced to the Americans in trouble? easily. Australian and New Zealand firefighters regularly help out with Californian bushfires. They've been doing so on and off for years. The US has taken on itself the mantle of 'saviour of the free world". Is it any wonder that other countries, who have seen what help it can give to them, think it's powerful enough to solve all its own crises? Perhaps, in this particular instance, America will finally swallow its pride and admit that it needs help from overseas. I'm not holding my breath waiting. James James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand. =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= -=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- You talk to me as if from a distance -.-=-.- And I reply with impressions chosen from another time =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-. (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 17:42:06 -0700 From: "Randy R." Subject: I wanna be sedated I for one would heartily agree with the IV drip idea. We could have "drip" and "no drip" flights depending on the person's preference, I suppose, but I'm not sure which one would be cheaper. (ahem, I'm not being serious but being claustrophic as well as a smoker, I have yearned for anything to ease the suffering) For the record, my mom's ex-boyfriend (everyone called him "Axe") was convicted of an attempted hijacking way back in the 70's. I've never bothered to get the complete details of the incident but I do know it took place in Hawaii, and he did 20 years for it. He's dead now so I am unable to ask him if a secured cockpit would have deterred his actions. The recent *discussions* on the list here have been helpful in sorting out my own feelings on these incidents so I would like to thank all those involved, whether I agree with them or not. Vince ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:04:19 -0700 From: Glen Uber Subject: weird A random thought: I just realized how eerily inappropriate "My Favourite Buildings" is now. - -- Cheers! - -g- "If we aren't careful, history will be rewritten to support the biases of the masses." --D. L. Beard Glen Uber // uberg (at) sonic dot net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:26:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Historical digressions -- my favorite! On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, James Dignan wrote: > >When distant cities are hit by earthquake, it's the United States that > >hurries in to help. Managua, Nicaragua is one of the most recent examples. > > ...which ISTR they have to do according to the Monroe Doctrine. The British > also helped in Managua. The Monroe Doctrine isn't a formal treaty at all, and doesn't obligate the US to do anything. It was essentially just a statement that the US wouldn't tolerate any more European colonization in the Americas. The aid after the Managua earthquake might have been required by some other treaty, but I think it was just voluntary. > simple. (a) America was in a race with the USSR to do so (only the USSR > couldn't really see the point of putting humans in danger when they could > send unmanned, robotic craft there). And once it had been done > successfully, there was little point in trying. Actually the Soviets did see the point of manned moon missions, and made a major bid to put a man on the moon first. However, their program wasn't as well funded as the Americans' (though still a major effort) and was badly rushed, and they ran into all sorts of difficulties and lagged behind the Americans. The end came in 1969 when their prototype booster, the N-1, exploded on the launch pad, killing dozens and devastating the launch facility. The program was cancelled soon after, and the whole thing was kept secret for twenty years. > perhaps that's understandable. ISTR that that was the description that the > USSR gave to its attempts to stabilise the government in Afghanistan. It > was asked in by the Afghan government, who were on the brink of facing > overthrow from hard-line Islamic rebels. This isn't quite accurate. In 1978 (I think) a coalition of Afghan leftist groups, not all Communist, seized power in a coup. The soon fell out with each other, and alienated many Afghans with their infighting, their changing traditions by fiat, and their general incompetence. The disorder that brought the Soviets in was thus the result of infighting among leftist groups combined with your ordinary peasant discontent, NOT an Islamic fundamentalist uprising. The fundamentalists only became important later, due to their major role in the anti-Soviet war. (The CIA probably hoped their aid to Islamic fundamentalists would later spread north, igniting unrest in Soviet Central Asia. Didn't quite work out that way, as is obvious now.) It's also said that the Politburo was all roaring drunk when they decided to invade. I don't know if that's been confirmed, though. - --Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V10 #346 ********************************