From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V10 #341 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Wednesday, September 12 2001 Volume 10 : Number 341 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Prodigal Dog, call home [Glen Uber ] Re: Prodigal Dog, call home [Christopher Gross ] Re: Discomfort [Capuchin ] The last couple days' events [Scott Hunter McCleary ] symbols or not ["Walker, Charles" ] what else? [Eb ] Re: Discomfort ["Sweet & Tender Hooligan" ] hey eddie [bayard ] Re: hey eddie [John Barrington Jones ] meanwhile, amongst the aged ["Natalie Jane" ] Re: Discomfort [Capuchin ] how to react ["Andrew D. Simchik" ] Re: meanwhile, amongst the aged [Capuchin ] I'm sorry for the future, I'm sorry for the past ["ross taylor" ] Security [The Great Quail ] donations at amazon ["victorian squid" ] Re: meanwhile, amongst the aged [Christopher Gross ] If you're still looking for someone ["victorian squid" Subject: Prodigal Dog, call home fegs, Has anyone heard from Scott McCleary? I know he works -- or used to work -- near the Pentagon. Scott, let us know you're okay. Love, health and happiness to all of you during this sad time. - -- Cheers! - -g- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:44:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: Prodigal Dog, call home On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Glen Uber wrote: > Has anyone heard from Scott McCleary? I know he works -- or used to > work -- near the Pentagon. Actually yes! I just got an off-list email from him. I'm sure he'll respond to the list himself, if he sees your note. Anyway, he seems to be alive and well. Having trouble getting through to 1-800-GIVELIFE, Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:56:16 -0400 From: "Poole, R. Edward" Subject: RE: Prodigal Dog, call home DC got pretty lucky, in comparison to NYC. If you weren't actually in the Pentagon, you should be OK; the Pentagon is only 5 stories high, and there aren't many other buildings in the immediate area, so we did not experience the "secondary" destruction caused by the fires and collapses in NYC. Also, the area of the Pentagon that was hit had recently been renovated, so its occupancy was lower than normal. Obviously, these facts don't diminish the devastation to the est. 100-800 people feared dead in the Pentagon or to their friends and families, it's just that many of us in the area are thankful it wasn't worse. I don't like being downtown today, though, because I'm not convinced this is over. - -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Gross [mailto:chrisg@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 2:45 PM To: Squidmaniax! Subject: Re: Prodigal Dog, call home On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Glen Uber wrote: > Has anyone heard from Scott McCleary? I know he works -- or used to > work -- near the Pentagon. Actually yes! I just got an off-list email from him. I'm sure he'll respond to the list himself, if he sees your note. Anyway, he seems to be alive and well. Having trouble getting through to 1-800-GIVELIFE, Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ============================================================================This e-mail message and any attached files are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the addressee(s) named above. 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To reply to our email administrator directly, send an email to postmaster@dsmo.com Dickstein Shapiro Morin & Oshinsky LLP http://www.legalinnovators.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:03:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: Discomfort On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Michael R Godwin wrote: > And would you consider the bombing of the Conservative Party > conference or the rocket attack on a Cabinet meeting to be attacks on > legitimate military targets? Doesn't the US Constitution outlaw that > kind of thing? You might want to take a few minutes and read the US Constitution. Really, you can do it an hour. It's short. It doesn't cover stuff like this at all. It's more of a mission statement with administrative guidelines. > Finally, does anyone yet have evidence that ObL was responsible? My guess > is that the operation was too big to have been carried out by one group. Too big? I honestly don't see it as very big at all. Thirty people could have pulled it off. There's no evidence (and I don't believe there will be any) of infiltration of the airlines or bribing security or anything like that. Honestly, four guys with a couple of ceramic knives and box cutters can get on and take over a plane. That's a simple fact of life. Quite frankly, I think airport security in the US is the most intrusive thing we should allow as it stands... any "enhancement" to those security systems would just be further violation of civil liberty. I'm absolutely appalled the Michael Moore would be pushing for those kinds of restrictions... but I've never been a fan of Michael Moore because he's never understood the relationship between freedom and equality. As Michael Wolfe said, madmen (and, in particular, suicidal madmen) are going to be a threat no matter what policies we enact. Our very best move toward preventing future attacks is elimination of the inequalities and tyrannies that cause people to lash out against perceived power. When there is equality, there is no power to lash out against. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:02:54 -0400 From: Scott Hunter McCleary Subject: The last couple days' events First, I'm overjoyed that the fegs came through the last few days intact. Second, I wish more of the debate was as honest and deeply felt as it is here. I wish we could share it. I'm really humbled by the kind of wrangling I get exposed to here. I had friends and coworkers two blocks from the WTC and in the Pentagon who came through unscathed. The woman who sits next to me at work was on a plane out of Newark as the attacks took place and saw the first strike on the WTC from the air. But she's okay (well, she's stuck in Detroit, but given the alternative...). I do have two losses to deal with: - - my boss's long-time boyfriend was director of security for WTC. He was last seen going back into the south tower to help with the evacuation. - - a close friend's son is one of the NY firefighters unaccounted for. While I mourn all the loss of life, these are particularly hard because of the personal ties I have with those they left behind. I'm thankful that there were no fegs to add to the list. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 12:04:38 -0700 From: "Walker, Charles" Subject: symbols or not >The "cause" seems pretty clear to me. They're symbolic targets. Chas in LA writes: Actually i believe that the folks really thought that these attacks would dissemble our society completely, that they would send our country into complete economic/social chaos. we of course know this wouldnt happen and sounds silly. but dont forget when 'terrorist' activities occur in their country, a third world nation, it tends to crumble whatever system that is in power. 'they' are smart but they arent geniuses and they fall prey to the tactic of applying what happens in their own land to what they think will happen in ours. the fourth plane was probably headed to the white house, being near campp david was a coincidence i think and here is my insubstantied theory of that plane: as it took off later and was in the air longer, i believe that i was shot down by the us military. now this is just my opinion of course, but they had enough time to get into the air. i dont think that the us pilot was still in control when it went down or that he grounded the plane to avoid the kamikaze effect as they couldnt be completely aware of the hijackers intentions. all in all this is such a sad day and my personal shock/numbness is wearing off and i am afraid of the emotions that will well up and replace the void i felt yesterday, not just in myself but in everyone. i am so proud of the new yorkers who remained amazingly cool and collected. i dont think my city of LA would have reacted in such a manner. shoe stores in manhatan were giving out sneakers for free to women in heels so that they could walk home. and there was no looting and rioting either. i am ashamed of those people in indianapolis who jacked up gas prices to $5/gallon to gouge their fellow citizen - that is contemptible. there is a gift in this somewhere and hopefully it will surface at some point. but new york is the one city i know that can take anything that anyone can dish out! that is for sure. i am glad to hear everyone on this list is safe. i am checking in with my people but it is slow and frustrating. cool heads will prevail, cheers - chas ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:16:58 -0700 From: Eb Subject: what else? Chris: >In times of crisis, stability and continuity can be a source of >comfort; so maybe I should be glad that Michael Moore is still an idiot >and an embarrassment to liberals everywhere. Word. Charles: >and here is my insubstantied theory of that plane: as it took off later and >was in the air longer, i believe that i was shot down by the us military. Someone in the Shanksville area called the Howard Stern show this morning, and claimed to see an explosion while the plane was still in the air, plus two other nearby planes. Hmm. James Dignan: >For fuck's sake He did it again! Times are grim, indeed. Eb, ever wary of those who equate economic sanctions with mass murder PS Who are they kidding, claiming that Capitol-steps rendition of "God Bless America" was "spontaneous"? :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:11:27 -0500 From: "Sweet & Tender Hooligan" Subject: Re: Discomfort > Our very best move toward preventing future > attacks is elimination of the inequalities and > tyrannies that cause people to lash out against > perceived power. I've been keeping out of this discussion, perhaps because I'm finding it difficult to discuss this situation in abstract terms, but I have to comment on this. I agree with you that inequality and tyranny, perpetrated by anyone - including the United States - is cause enough for some people to lash out. And it's morally repugnant. But do you honestly fail to understand that IF this attack was perpetrated by a radical Islamic fringe group, no amount of equality or goodwill would have prevented it. Religious fanatics - and, yes, lunatics - are not governed by rational thought or reasonable compromise. They are men with a mission who aren't about to let something as petty as goodwill get in the way. This is not a political war that can be diffused by passing out credit cards, cell-phones and Juicemakers to the enemy, it is a "jihad" (as Osama himself puts it). While your ideas are admirable, they are not inspiring or even relevant in this current crisis. Peace to you. s&th cirhsein@yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:30:47 -0700 (PDT) From: bayard Subject: hey eddie am i mistaken, or did the lyrics to "Family Guy" change from "effin' cry" to "laugh and cry"? what an effin' shame... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:32:20 -0700 (PDT) From: John Barrington Jones Subject: Re: hey eddie "family guy"? who sings that? =jbj= On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, bayard wrote: > am i mistaken, or did the lyrics to "Family Guy" change from "effin' > cry" to "laugh and cry"? > > what an effin' shame... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:33:34 -0700 From: "Natalie Jane" Subject: meanwhile, amongst the aged Some random notes: Gad, I'm so, so glad I'm stuck here instead of in an airport - or worse yet, on a plane. The problem is, there's nothing to do here, and we seem to be grounded indefinitely - at least until Thursday. But I shouldn't complain. I would like to thank Mike Swedene for offering to put me up at his place - I forgot to do so before. The old folks are having a "Happy to be an American" happy hour, and the staff have put up little American flags everywhere. Yecch. Quail and I, of course, are very worried about Yog Sothoth escaping from the Pentagon, now that the five-sided barrier has been breached. Jeez - with all the other troubles going on, imagine having to deal with a bloodthirsty Elder God as well... I finally got ahold of my friend Eleanor (in Greenwich Village) at about midnight last night. She is OK, and glad that the wind is not blowing in her direction. She noticed that, contrary to some news reports, people seem to be stunned or sad, not angry. "They look like zombies," she said. She's worried the media might try to whip people into a frenzy. But how much whipping will they need? n. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:35:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: Discomfort On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Sweet & Tender Hooligan wrote: > I've been keeping out of this discussion, perhaps because I'm finding > it difficult to discuss this situation in abstract terms, but I have > to comment on this. Now that's the first thing I've heard that made sense to me from the folks that argue we "shouldn't talk about it". I can totally understand being so overwhelmed with emotion that you can't think clearly about the subject or abstract the greater issues and implications. That makes sense to me. My life, however, has consistently put me in situations where I HAD to analyze rationally in the face of strong emotion... so I guess I'm kind of used to it. I DO feel those great emotions, though... I guess I forget how other people are totally overcome by them. (This causes big problems in my personal life, I promise... particularly when the emotion DOES overpower me and I act irrationally and it is presumed to be my rational choice.) > I agree with you that inequality and tyranny, perpetrated by anyone - > including the United States - is cause enough for some people to lash > out. And it's morally repugnant. I really thought EVERYONE agreed to this, but I'm finding that's just not the case. > But do you honestly fail to understand that IF this attack was > perpetrated by a radical Islamic fringe group, no amount of equality > or goodwill would have prevented it. Religious fanatics - and, yes, > lunatics - are not governed by rational thought or reasonable > compromise. So are you arguing containment or extermination? As I see it, we have three options: Live with 'em. And every once in a while, shit will go down that hurts people. Contain them. And constantly imprison a large population in such a way that probably violates other human rights and certainly is in violation of the civil liberties we hold dear. Exterminate them. And we can become exactly what they are and fear most. We can even call it a reverse-jihad. > While your ideas are admirable, they are not inspiring or even > relevant in this current crisis. I'll know that as soon as someone claims responsibility or is found guilty in a court of law. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:39:01 -0700 From: "Andrew D. Simchik" Subject: how to react >From: Christopher Gross > >The funny thing is, yesterday's attacks shouldn't even matter to your main >argument, that US foreign policy is evil and should be changed. If it's >evil, we should change it regardless of whether or not anyone attacks us >for it. (And if it's not evil, then terrorist attacks are certainly not a >reason to change it.) Thank you. I was not really finding a way to express this, and it fingers exactly the reason why all this talk about us getting a taste of our own medicine bothers me so much. It's as if we're wrong to be upset about this because of what our country is doing on our behalf elsewhere in the world already... it's not as though no one has decried _that_ terrorism, when we have been able to learn about it. We could all probably find more ways to fight the evil our own country perpetrates in our names than we already do (assuming of course, that we see it as such). >From: "Poole, R. Edward" > > I'm torn on whether "frivolous" events, such as sports and >entertainment, should be suspended out of respect for the victims and to >allow space for reflection, or should continue to show that terrorists will >not dictate how we live our lives. The "American life is strong and goes on despite terrorism" argument is not one I'm all that excited about, myself. It's very hard right now to enjoy anything, but if you can manage it, just take a minute to reflect on how lucky we are that we're able to. I thought incessantly yesterday about how amazing it is that I could sit in my apartment watching this stuff on TV, cooking myself something to eat, petting my cats, checking my email, and trying to watch MST3K when reality was getting to be too much. In some parts of the world (big DUH coming up) reality -- this kind, too often -- is all they get. Drew - -- Andrew D. Simchik, drew at stormgreen dot com http://www.stormgreen.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:41:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: meanwhile, amongst the aged On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Natalie Jane wrote: > She noticed that, contrary to some news reports, people seem to be > stunned or sad, not angry. "They look like zombies," she said. > She's worried the media might try to whip people into a frenzy. But > how much whipping will they need? Well, they don't need an actual frenzy, just an illusion of frenzy. I'm sure NBC news is doing whatever it can to drum up sales for GE-built weapons of mass destruction. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:43:33 -0400 From: "ross taylor" Subject: I'm sorry for the future, I'm sorry for the past Not close to what others got, but it was weird yesterday, walking 8 miles home from DC, beautiful weather, drifiting clouds with occasional fighter planes. Eliz & I don't have cell phones so we were still wondering about the supposed fifth plane still in the air. Victims of the many-tongued Rumour who appears at the start of Henry IV part II. So far we've gone out to our first level of family & friends & everyone is OK. My futures- trading (!) bother-in-law Dan was determined to go in to work early but his girlfriend insisted he have breakfast w/ her. Saved his life. Eliz says "he probably should marry her." As we go out to the second tier of acquantances, maybe not so good. Kids from Merce's class were being called out of class yesterday. Perhaps trying to maintain my sense of irony, I've dug up a poem I wrote in the early eighties, certainly no later than 83. Anyhow this is my almost 20 year old unpublished poem about fear & hate. A BUREAUCRAT He's got enough quiet hate to power all the flights that use National Airport, across the river. At home, at night, he hears their roar and thinks he'd like to take a break-- do Chicago, or Nova Scotia. Again, before his clock goes off, he hears the distant turbines start and half-wakes, thinks the noise his heart. In dark he makes scenarios. Could some foreign crew, on their last approach, turn, speed up, "go in the grass" and hit the White-house? Terrorists, or decapitating first stroke of war? Lightheaded, he makes a fist to the planes' straining, feels his muscles warm. In New York, he thinks, the sirens keep one, in D.C. the booming keeps one sane. Suddenly every thunder is in vain at the semi-musical beeping of his alarm. Sorry to dump a poem on the list, but it's my natural reaction. I don't understand politics, don't even understand people I think. It may be that Pre-Columbian Native Americans had just as good a life as we have, just shorter & different. Recent events have given me an early 80s kind of vibe -- conservatism & the prospect of serious war. The dread comes from different sources, then it was Reagon/Andropov nulear insanity, now it's perhaps the largest # of Americans killed in 1 day, beating Antitam. Black Sea, Unknown Pleasures, Black Snake Diamond Role all go well w/ these vibes. Aside from the losses, it will be a long shadow. a) Pandora's box is open, people see it can be done. With impunity? Who cares? These folks seem to have been calm & businesslike about dying. b) "The first casualty in war is the truth." Among other things I expect the internet to change greatly. I plan to give blood, thanks for the advice. Love, Ross Taylor Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:48:23 -0700 From: "victorian squid" Subject: Re: IRA On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:04:43 The Great Quail wrote: >The Middle Eastern terrorist groups don't seem to make distinctions >between America, its government, its military, or its citizens. We >are one big convenient satanic concept. Osama Bin Laden has made many statements to the effect that anyone who pays taxes in America is the enemy. To him there is zero distinction between Jeme Brelin, your harmless old aunt Mildred, and a raving right wing loon who thinks we should nuke the entire Middle East. loveonya, susan Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:58:47 -0700 From: The Great Quail Subject: Security Capuchin writes, >Quite frankly, I think airport security in the US is the most intrusive >thing we should allow as it stands... any "enhancement" to those security >systems would just be further violation of civil liberty. >Our very best move toward preventing future attacks is elimination of the >inequalities and tyrannies that cause people to lash out against perceived >power. When there is equality, there is no power to lash out against. Yes, well, until we establish world peace and turn the United States over to you to run, so we can finally become an enlightened nation loved by one and all, I will happily sacrifice a few moments of inconvenience at an airport if even ONE out of the next fifty hijackers are caught. You say airport security is the "Most intrusive thing we should allow as it stands?" For god's sake, having someone read your mail and bug your phone is obtrusive. Just because we have the freedom to travel doesn't mean we should be allowed to walk onto a plane we don't even own, and bitch about having someone peek into our suitcase out of a realistic concern for national security. I mean, it's not like I really need to carry a Swiss Army knife on-board. I would hardly call it intrusive -- it's a small annoyance at best. Jeme, why don't you fly out here to New York and walk around? I can still see the smoke outside my window. This is not an abstraction, nor is it something even on the scope of Oklahoma. This was a coordinated act of war, and most people around here have the suspicion that the death toll will be about 20,000. I really don't think you have grasped the scope of this yet. There are thousands of corpses out there, and I think that any one of them is worth an extra few moments at an airport. - --Quail PS: And yes, I know the Ben Franlin quote about liberty and security; but like all things, it can become just as ludicrous when taken to a fundamentalist extreme. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:11:44 -0700 From: "victorian squid" Subject: donations at amazon Just thought some would want to know, Amazon.com is taking monetary donations for the Red Cross. If you want to donate and can't get through to the official site (as I couldn't), this is useful. loveonya, susan still has a cold and can't give blood yet Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:22:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: meanwhile, amongst the aged On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Capuchin wrote: > Well, they don't need an actual frenzy, just an illusion of frenzy. > > I'm sure NBC news is doing whatever it can to drum up sales for GE-built > weapons of mass destruction. Is your certainty backed up by the slightest bit of evidence? For example, is NBC's coverage noticeably different from anyone else's? Or are you just sure of this because you are convinced that it's just the kind of thing that "they" would do? - --Chris, cranky 'cause he woke up at 2:30 am and couldn't get back to sleep. And 'cause thousands of his countrymen and women were massacred yesterday. ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:26:42 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: meanwhile, amongst the aged At 01:41 PM 9/12/2001 -0700, Capuchin wrote: >On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Natalie Jane wrote: >> She noticed that, contrary to some news reports, people seem to be >> stunned or sad, not angry. "They look like zombies," she said. >> She's worried the media might try to whip people into a frenzy. But >> how much whipping will they need? > >Well, they don't need an actual frenzy, just an illusion of frenzy. > >I'm sure NBC news is doing whatever it can to drum up sales for GE-built >weapons of mass destruction. Before Jeme wrote this, I had been pondering sending a message to the list expressing my dismay at the harsh reaction a few folks had to Jeme's initial posts on this subject. Perhaps he should have made his regret about the deaths a more central feature of his early posts, but I'd wager that more Fegs besides Jeme wish that the United States would reevaluate its foreign policy assumptions and their affect on a substantial portion of the Islamic world. I for one wish this would happen even if it were to turn out that the perpetrators of this crime were McVeigh-like home-grown extremists. At the time, it seemed to me that Jeme was well within the bounds of civil discussion to include this point, even if he did follow it with a couple of assertions and dogmatic assumptions that could have used some more careful phrasing. But then I read this. Sheesh. Jeme, at this point, you *are* grinding that axe. I've gotta pitch in with doug and James "For Fuck's Sake" Dignan: We can argue about this some other goddamn time. Me, I'm entirely relieved that my Feg and Loud-Fan friends all appear to have survived, I'm glad that I have an apartment and a wife and two cats to go home to, and I'm sickened and shaken to my core over what's transpired in New York, Washington, and Pennsylvania. Some moments of silence and contemplation seem more in order than a few Fegs monopolizing this forum to revisit personal feuds that were tiresome and corrosive even in better times. Because I can't improve on doug's eloquent phrase, I'll borrow it wholesale: right now it is far more productive to focus on "how fragile and precious the connections between us are," and I don't see taking some time to do that, or asking other Fegs to do so, as somehow acquiescing to some sort of Dubya status-quo groupthink right-wing Nuke-the-Third-World agenda. So I'm gonna take some time to do that contemplation, OK? I hope everyone else does too, for fuck's sake. For all our sakes. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:30:58 -0700 From: Eb Subject: wow, have you seen this? http://www.girlieaction.com/coup/coup-cover-300.jpg This is (was!) the planned cover for an upcoming album by an Oakland rap group called "The Coup." The album isn't out until November 6th, and you probably wouldn't be surprised to hear that the artwork is now being last-minute changed. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:23:20 -0700 From: "victorian squid" Subject: If you're still looking for someone A site where survivors have posted their names and current locations: http://okay.prodigy.net/#newyork Also try: http://safe.millennium.berkeley.edu/ (On the bright side, A LOT of listings. On the other side, I didn't see Rob Leas listed on either of these. Has anyone heard from him yet?) Anyone who is interested in helping the families of NY firemen (they aren't yet set up to take web donations or direct bank deposits, this is checks/money order only for the moment): New York's Bravest Memorial Fund c/o firehouse.com 9658 Baltimore Ave., Suite 350 College Park, Maryland 20740 loveonya, susan Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V10 #341 ********************************