From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V10 #340 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Wednesday, September 12 2001 Volume 10 : Number 340 Today's Subjects: ----------------- some thoughts ["noe shalev" ] Re: thanks, plus parochial aside [steve ] Re: shalom [Christopher Gross ] RE: thanks, plus parochial aside ["Poole, R. Edward" ] Aftermath ["Viola Rockiss" ] Re: Fwd: [Mike's Message] Death, Downtown [Christopher Gross ] RE: Mercury Prize ["Poole, R. Edward" ] Discomfort [The Great Quail ] Re: Discomfort [Michael R Godwin ] NYC [Mike Swedene ] pentagon pictures [bayard ] Akamai CTO killed in AA flight [Tom Clark ] IRA [The Great Quail ] Is Conflicted a good way to describe myself? ["Seth Frisby" Subject: some thoughts first of all I want to send my feelings to all US fegs. living here in Israel all my life didn't equipt me with the ability to understand such a huge disaster' yet it gave me the direction to begin and realise. As well as I always say to my Israli friends - as much as this sort of attacks are pure evil we don''t have the privilage not to go down into the minds of those who conduct it and at least try to understand: why? what do they want? whoever did this attack, did it as mentionrd here before for a reason. I might even speculate that that reason wasn't declared as evil. nevertheless most trror organizations believe to be on the good side and call us - Israel and the US - "the Devil". differences and disputes couldn't be removed by force. and this is working for both sides. the leaders of ours should try and understand the other sides "reasons" and hoever hard it is try and resolve the disputes. Iin this hard day I wish to dedicate you all this Zappa songs, not that it bears any hope but rather sanity or maybe understanding http://www.update.uu.se/~fbendz/lyrics/dumb_all.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:07:19 -0500 From: steve Subject: Re: thanks, plus parochial aside On Wednesday, September 12, 2001, at 12:04 AM, Jim Davies wrote: > There's also a tremendous sadness for the state of the world, and a > fear that the U.S. might become more xenophobic, more isolationist, > and more belligerent. Of course, _quite the opposite_ might happen - > we shouldn't underestimate, presume, or despair. I doubt there will be many voices of reason among the talking heads and politicians. Jeme's analysis of the reasons behind the attack is probably spot on. Beware of the Bush "administration" and other right wingers using this incident as a justification for advancing their own agenda. - - Steve __________ A New York Times investigation into overseas ballots that helped George W. Bush win the presidency found that Florida election officials, facing intense GOP pressure to accept military votes, counted hundreds of overseas absentee ballots that failed to comply with state election laws. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:22:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: shalom Singling out Michael Wolfe simply because he's the most recent of several who wrote on the same theme.... > I don't know if this is shouting in a hurricane, but. I'm > going to try to mediate a little bit. Not sure quite how you're using the word "mediate" here.... > If the people who did this did so for no reason at all, they are > clearly madmen. > [snip] > Therefore, in a discussion where we can agree on my three > premises, we can conclude that not only were these willed acts, > but for purposes of discussion they were committed by people who > were acting for a reason. A reason that, in their heads > justified these terrible murders. Your whole conceptual scheme, that the terrorists were either lunatics who acted for no reason or sane people who acted for a reason, is fundamentally flawed. It ignores at least two possibilities: that they were people who acted for a reason but are insane anyway; or that they are madmen who happen to have (or claim) a reason. Really, is it even POSSIBLE that these guys are sane? Their thinking seems muddled, to say the least. What did they think would happen? That the US would say, "Okay, you bombed us so you win -- we will now immediately drop all sanctions against Iraq, join in the struggle to destroy Israel, and convert to Islam en masse"? (Or whatever causes they espouse.) It should be perfectly obvious that the most likely outcome of the terrorists' act is the US will become even more hostile to their causes, while the terrorists themselves will be hunted down and killed. So, take your pick: the terrorists are either insane or very, very, very stupid. Either way, their grasp of cause and effect will be unreliable; and any plan to get them to stop their attacks by modifying our behavior to stop "provoking" them is ... problematical, to say the least. > Now. If we're looking for reasons, the US hasn't exactly been a > pious choirboy on the world scene in the last 20 years. [snip] True enough. But I think it's interesting that you, and other posters in the same vein, are willing to look for the terrorists' motives and try to understand their point of view, even though you don't share it; yet you make no similar effort for *American* actions. > In the interest of premise one, of wanting to stop > anything like this from ever happening again, let's stop giving > people reasons to do this, shall we? Your phrase "giving people reasons to do this" implies that these terrorist acts are a reasonable response to American acts. (If terrorists' attitude wasn't reasonable, you wouldn't say we should modify our behavior to accomodate it, would you?) And if you're saying the attacks were reasonable responses to US actions, then despite your disclaimer you you are, in effect, justifying them. I doubt this is what you *intended*, but when you think about it that's where your argument leads. Why can't there be another possibility: that this was an UNREASONABLE, UNJUSTIFIED response to US acts, however bad those US acts may have been? > Let's stop lobbing Tomohawk > missiles indiscriminately whenever our elected officials deem it > expedient to do so because of sagging polls. Let's see, when was the last time we TomAhawked someone? Was it when the President got bored with Quake III? No, it was after the 1998 bombings of two of our embassies. The missiles were aimed, not indiscriminately, but specifically at Osama bin Laden's facilities. Before that it was Iraq, for their refusal to cooperate with UN weapons inspectors. (And call me a jingoistic militarist, but I always thought trying to keep Saddam Hussein's regime from getting weapons of mass destruction was a pretty good fucking idea.) No cynically pointless attacks in either case. And please don't repeat the old bs about how Clinton bombed Iraq to distract the public from Monicagate. Attacks like that require WEEKS of planning; there's no way Clinton could have pulled one together 36 hours after the scandal broke. (And if he had tried, right wing military officers would have leaked the whole thing soon afterwards.) > Let's let democratically elected > governments rule, instead of sending in the "advisors" when US > transnats get skittish about rhetoric involving economic justice > in those countries. Sounds good. Now, which real-life attacks on democracies are you thinking of? If you reach back almost thirty years, the CIA's involvement in the Chilean coup would count. Other than that, I'm hard pressed to think of any even vaguely democratic countries that we've been in conflict with. Iran, Iraq, Libya, Cuba, North Korea, Sudan, Milosevic-era Serbia ... I think you'll agree there are no democracies on that list! The funny thing is, yesterday's attacks shouldn't even matter to your main argument, that US foreign policy is evil and should be changed. If it's evil, we should change it regardless of whether or not anyone attacks us for it. (And if it's not evil, then terrorist attacks are certainly not a reason to change it.) Though he unfortunately lost his temper yesterday, I think Eb was right when he expressed his disgust that Capuchin was "using this catastrophe to grind [his] usual axes"; and I kind of feel the same way about Michael's argument. (Maybe more saddened than disgusted.) If nothing else, you have to understand that arguments that it's all America's fault are going to offend people right now. If your neighbor just died of lung cancer, would you go up to his widow at the funeral and say "You know, it was his own fault for smoking, and this should be a lesson to quit smoking yourself"? - --Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:27:01 -0400 From: "Poole, R. Edward" Subject: RE: thanks, plus parochial aside Steve sez: >Jeme's analysis of the reasons behind the attack is probably spot on. That may well be true, but I (and others) objected to Jeme's posts yesterday *not* because we believe that the US can do no wrong and that the perpetrators of yesterday's attacks are just crazy zealots with no motivation other than baseless hatred. Instead, I was (and am) incensed with the causal toss-off of "yeah, but we provoked them and deserved what we got" type messages while the horrible loss of life was just beginning to unfold. Compare what Jeme said with Noe Shalev (and Michael Moore) had to say about seeking to understand the attackers' motivations. Now points out that we must "should try and understand the other sides 'reasons' and however hard it is try and resolve the disputes." (Moore makes a similar point). The point is that our response to this tragedy should *not* be "let's wipe the bastards off the face of the Earth" (as we here in DC have been hearing since we first heard the news and Congressmen evacuated from their offices took to the airwaves), but rather "let's try to increase our understanding of the root causes of the hatred directed at the U.S. and try to resolve/diffuse them." That's a big difference. Of course, it's also a tall order for people who still are fearing for their lives. As I walked from the Metro to work this morning (around 5 blocks from the White House), I passed Special Forces stationed at every intersection. I guess this is what Noe and other Israelis feels every day. ============================================================================This e-mail message and any attached files are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the addressee(s) named above. This communication may contain material protected by attorney-client, work product, or other privileges. If you are not the intended recipient or person responsible for delivering this confidential communication to the intended recipient, you have received this communication in error, and any review, use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, copying, or other distribution of this e-mail message and any attached files is strictly prohibited. If you have received this confidential communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail message and permanently delete the original message. To reply to our email administrator directly, send an email to postmaster@dsmo.com Dickstein Shapiro Morin & Oshinsky LLP http://www.legalinnovators.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:29:18 +0000 From: "Viola Rockiss" Subject: Aftermath Quail: >I can't describe it in any >other way that it seemed like reality was just being *violated* in >front of my eyes. >I swear to God I never >even imagined the sights I've seen today, the people, the terror. I >kept thinking it was just like a movie, but it was a lot stranger -- >every few minutes some new random weirdness would intrude. There was >no continuity to it, which was how I kept knowing it wasn't a movie >- -- you know, no director would think to add small details like all >the delivery vans stopped with radios turned up to the same channel, >or the thousands of cellphones, or the lost Jehovah Witnesses, their >suits and dresses covered head to toe in white ash, asking politely >for directions to the Manhattan Bridge. I can safely say this was >the >single most frightening event I have ever witnessed. Telling, heart-felt description. Glad feg had a poet on the scene. - ---------------- Its funny, I thought it would be CNN and Internet Web sites which would make this oh so different from anything that might have happened 20 years ago. Its not, its the ls. Its James in NZ being the first to post about it. Its Chris saying there wasnt a Mall fire before official reports confirmed it. Its Nat getting stranded in a stange place and Herbie offering to help. Its Quail telling us why its not just a movie. And its a place where, in the straightjacket of work(Act Professional!) and worried bout my dad I could unload and get caring feedback. Thank you all. Youve been a big help. - ------------- Im trying to eschew politics but the line Ive heard from some Arab commentators(not all)on TV, the bit bout how "the US"(as if the people who died were a thing, a mental concept, a country) deserved it, well-- it reminds me of the old attitude bout rape. Hey--she was a attractive woman who was sexual; she deserved it. Im not saying its an exact parrallel(its not) but it is an example of dehumanizing and blaming the victims. Kay _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:41:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: Fwd: [Mike's Message] Death, Downtown In times of crisis, stability and continuity can be a source of comfort; so maybe I should be glad that Michael Moore is still an idiot and an embarrassment to liberals everywhere. (Er, this is the "Roger and Me" Michael Moore, right? I guess it is a fairly common name.) Not that I disagree with *everything* he said, mind you. But why does he think it's impossible for Osama bin Laden to find four pilots willing to die for the cause? Does he think Arabs and other Muslims are all just a bunch of illiterate camel breeders? Arab nations have both airlines and air forces, ya know. (And his (vaguely racist) characterization of bin Laden as "a guy who sleeps in a tent" make him seem harmless and helpless, but not many men who split Saudi Arabia with a US$300 million fortune are all that helpless.) And while Moore might not have heard anyone raise the possibility that the attackers were Americans, I heard *several* people mention it yesterday, on NPR and elsewhere. Of course Moore probably thinks that everyone in the media, save only his own noble self, is just a mouthpiece for government propaganda, and probably shut his ears against any evidence to the contrary. No one likes to have their biases undermined, as Mike himself would probably point out if we were talking about someone else. And how about that insightful bit of socio-economic analysis when he says "the rest of the world [is] living in poverty so we can have nice running shoes." Not all the world is poor, Mike; and since the poor nations were poor before our Marines rounded them all up and forced them to take jobs in Nike plants, perhaps there are other causes for their poverty. But Moore isn't stupid when it comes to PR; he cleverly spent only half of his message blaming the US, rather than 9/10 of it. - --Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 15:53:53 +0100 From: "Rob" Subject: Mercury Prize Insignificant in the circumstances, but they went ahead with it last night anyway. PJ Harvey won. http://www.ananova.com/entertainment/story/sm_396415.html Rob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:00:56 -0400 From: "Poole, R. Edward" Subject: RE: Mercury Prize Rob: >Insignificant in the circumstances, but they went ahead with it last >night anyway. PJ Harvey won. Glad for PJ. I'm torn on whether "frivolous" events, such as sports and entertainment, should be suspended out of respect for the victims and to allow space for reflection, or should continue to show that terrorists will not dictate how we live our lives. I'm leaning towards the latter, which is the main reason I showed up for work today (and you can all see how much I'm getting done!), but I understand the former. That, plus the logistical nightmares involved with the grounding of all US air travel probably tip the balance towards a few days of respite. That said, I'd like to see the NFL back in action (though, with the sorry state of the Washington Redskins, perhaps some time off would be a good idea). ============================================================================This e-mail message and any attached files are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the addressee(s) named above. This communication may contain material protected by attorney-client, work product, or other privileges. If you are not the intended recipient or person responsible for delivering this confidential communication to the intended recipient, you have received this communication in error, and any review, use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, copying, or other distribution of this e-mail message and any attached files is strictly prohibited. If you have received this confidential communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail message and permanently delete the original message. To reply to our email administrator directly, send an email to postmaster@dsmo.com Dickstein Shapiro Morin & Oshinsky LLP http://www.legalinnovators.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:08:02 -0700 From: The Great Quail Subject: Discomfort I must confess, I have some discomfort at a few discussions going on here right now. I understand the anger against America. I understand several shades of anger, each one colored by a different reason. I can even understand how someone can build up enough hatred that they trade their souls away, and decide they can take such an evil action as this. But even given this, I am very uncomfortable with certain people on the List and their almost smug attitudes right now. Have we done wrong? Of course. Just to look at the big picture, I think Vietnam was an atrocious moment in our history, and I do not feel we had the right to drop the bomb the way we did. I loathe the support we give terrorist groups, though again, there are shades of distinction given the targets and context of a group. (Supporting Afghanistan "terrorists" struggling against a Russian invasion vs. supporting right-wing elements trying to overturn a legitimate Central American government....) But I cannot bring myself to internalize the idea that evil is either a quantitative thing that can be fitted to an equation, or a qualitative property that can be traded from one group to another. In other words, because we dropped the bomb on Japan, I cannot say this is justification for probable Arab terrorists to make an attempt at mass murder for some 100,000 civilians. Because the Vietnamese may have some very real concerns against us, I can't see how that legitimizes any other group to destroy my city. What evil is done must be addressed on its own terms. Two thing here, though. I do not think that Jeme or anyone else is expressing a direct belief that "we had it coming" and deserve it. I believe him when he expresses his own dismay at the attack. I do not think he is supporting the terrorists at all, not one bit. Secondly, I *do* believe that there is a difference in most of what we have done vs. *this.* Initiating sanctions against Iraq may be a morally ambiguous act that resulted in civilian death, but it is still an extension of national policy against another nation state, one that we are at war with, for whatever reason. If it is an unjust policy, that must be addressed, which is certainly difficult in our own media. If this attack would have been from Iraq, I could at least partially understand it. If it would have been directed at the Pentagon only, I could conceptualize it even more -- though murdering a group of clerks is hardly the way to cripple a military. Even Japan attacked a military target that made sense, despite the mendacity of all involved during those years. But this attack was from a nameless group, one that caused mass murder of civilians without warning, for one reason only, to cause terror. Because they hate us. Beacuse they are soulless. Because they are evil. I don't expect a lot of sympathy from Asia, Russia, Central America, or most other nations states that we have caused harm, whether justified or not. Hell, I don't even expect a lot of sympathy from England, given the fact many Americans support the IRA in some degree or another -- though they *generally* try to strike at "military" targets, which of course takes in the police as well. (This is not a statement meant to condone the IRA.) But what I do expect is my fellow Americans to show a little tact, sympathy, and understanding right now. It sickens me to perceive the moral tone of certain postings to this List. "I am very sorry" is so quickly followed by a "But...." It may be that some of you hope we will use this tragedy as an excuse to "examine" our foreign policy and address the reasons why we are so hated. That is a viable political desire, I think. But what I object to is the entire *tone* of many postings, and that includes the forward from Mr. Moore. There will come a time of discussion on the effects of this on the national psyche. But this is not the time to climb on a moral high horse and start preaching down at us. Some may think it makes your words of sympathy sound hollow indeed. Some may think it further highlights in in some hearts, ideology and the desire to be perceived as *right* undermines the simple empathy of being human. My discomfort does not come from hearing that some people have a reason to hate us, or that we have done evil, or even that in some people's eyes, we deserve this. My discomfort springs from the fact that some people are so anxious to rush to point all this out, it causes any real words of support and understanding to sound with the ring of empty words, of insincerity. Especially given recent discussions about the use of violence. Is pushing your political agenda so important that you have to appear tactless and uncaring? I suppose your hearts bleed so much for all the people America has wronged that is has precious little blood left over for thousands of your neighbors. The Left is always saying, "Hey! Look at what is going on in your own back yard" when someone points their finger at repression in other countries. Now, some of you Leftists might want to consider this yourselves. People you know have been attacked; hell, all of us New York Fegs were attacked, they tried to kill me, Lj, Mary, Ken.... It's not a pleasant feeling; nor is reading the List and finding out that this should be my personal wake-up call to realize that I live in an evil country, one which has created numerous "justifications" for this. We are an emotional mess over here; we don't even know how many people have died. Anyway, That's pretty much what I wanted to say. Though I do agree with Steve in that I would hate to see our "leaders" use this as an excuse to push our national agenda further to the right, and begin eating away at the Constitution. So many tragedies may spring from this. I think we all realize we will have to trade some freedom for security; I pray we are able to stop before we cause even more damage to our national soul. I hope this catastrophe ends up bringing out our best, and not our worst. I for one am scared of everything right now. - --Quail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:10:10 +0100 (BST) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Re: Discomfort On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, The Great Quail wrote: > Hell, I don't even expect a lot of sympathy from England, given the > fact many Americans support the IRA in some degree or another -- > though they *generally* try to strike at "military" targets, which of > course takes in the police as well. (This is not a statement meant to > condone the IRA.) Hold on thaar, Quail! Depends what you mean by *generally*. Off the top of my head I can quote Enniskillen, Omagh, Canary Wharf, that commuter station bomb, the BBC bomb, the massive Arndale shopping centre explosion in Manchester, the gigantic Baltic Exchange bomb and the bus that went up in the Strand as typical republican explosions which had no military target. There are plenty more (Hammersmith Bridge etc) which would have killed members of the public if they hadn't been defused. Blowing up a brass band in the park doesn't come under my definition of a 'military' target either, even if the bandsmen are in the forces. And would you consider the bombing of the Conservative Party conference or the rocket attack on a Cabinet meeting to be attacks on legitimate military targets? Doesn't the US Constitution outlaw that kind of thing? Having said that, yesterday's events make the whole Irish issue look small. Fewer than 4000 people have been killed during the troubles since 1969 and I dread to think what the total is going to be. Noe has expressed what we all know, which is that violence spirals upwards and that unless someone calls a halt it just keeps going under its own momentum. Quite often it rebounds: Osama bin Laden was financed and probably trained by the CIA in the days when his group were fighting to expel the Russians from Afghanistan - see: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_155000/155236.stm Finally, does anyone yet have evidence that ObL was responsible? My guess is that the operation was too big to have been carried out by one group. And the only official announcement which did not deny responsibility was from Iraq - http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1540000/1540029.stm - - Mike Godwin PS Pleased to see you are going to add Moorcock to your pages. I just read "The Dreamthief's Daughter" which is a real return to form - TWO black blades! Nazis! Tanelorn threatened by the forces of Law! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:14:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Swedene Subject: NYC I just found out last night (11 PM) that my girlfriend is ok. Her place is 2 blocks away from the WTC. She is in Long Island with her uncle. This is very messed up. Mike Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:13:53 -0700 (PDT) From: bayard Subject: pentagon pictures from an aquaintnce of mine: http://www.pentagononfire.homestead.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:28:57 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: Akamai CTO killed in AA flight http://www.akamai.com/html/en/nr/press/press292.html Those of us in "the industry" realize the contributions Daniel has made to internet technology. - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:04:43 -0700 From: The Great Quail Subject: IRA Michael writes, >Hold on thaar, Quail! Depends what you mean by *generally*. I meant it more or less at face value. Certainly, official IRA doctrine makes a statement about the IRA being a military organization, and they generally realize the value of keeping their targets "acceptable" in terms of guerilla warfare, as opposed to unfocused terrorism. Of course, they do not always follow this; and making matters worse, there are numerous other terrorist groups, such as the INLA, which don't even bother an attempt to adhere to such guidelines; not to mention rogue elements in the IRA or just plain evil-minded ideas. I am under no illusions that the Provisional IRA is a heroic group of rebels who confine their attacks to Paras. And again, I abhor their terrorist methods, even while I understand the causes beneath their anger. That does not mean I condone it, or believe that their terrorist attacks are justified. The Middle Eastern terrorist groups don't seem to make distinctions between America, its government, its military, or its citizens. We are one big convenient satanic concept. That's all that I meant, I hope I gave no offense. - --Quail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 14:07:44 -0400 From: "Seth Frisby" Subject: Is Conflicted a good way to describe myself? I don't really think we'll understand how devastating this really is until we have time to make connections with all our webs of acquaintances and friends. Very few in Vermont were directly affected, in fact Montpelier by all accounts was the only running capital, but I myself it seems am indirectly affected. As two of the planes were from Boston and as I grew up on Cape Cod, more eerie connections are being made as time passes. My first cousin is a steward for United in Boston and very likely could have been on either plane, what's stranger is that his Aunt's girlfriend/significant other WAS a flight attendant on one. I didn't know her but I certainly know Gerty, her lover, in fact she was the very first lesbian I ever met as a child and was very kind to her nephews' close cousins. Also one of the phone calls from the hijacked planes came from a Cape man who was married to a Gym teacher at Dennis Yarmouth high school; where my father as well as many friends attended. I dread other connections distance from the tragedy will bring. The sick thing (of many) of this is that these terrorists used innocent people from one state to attack other innocent people in another state. How surreal and twisted is that huh? I keep having to calm peoples violent nature with comments like "Attack who? All of THEM??". I'm filled with such conflicted feelings because I know violence causes further violence. My girlfriend's first reaction was to blame Bush, but even a nincompoop like him couldn't directly cause this. A system caused this, a system much larger than one lowly texan. A system as big as this globe. There are too many rumors and scant information. I want this to be put to right without unbalancing the scales more. Am I being too optimistic in hoping widespread reform and dare I say "good" comes out of this? I hope not. Peace Seth _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V10 #340 ********************************