From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V10 #252 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Friday, June 22 2001 Volume 10 : Number 252 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: DVD region query [steve ] Re: Sexy Beast/DVD region query [Aaron Mandel ] season cycle [grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan)] Re: RIP ["victorian squid" ] judging art ["Andrew D. Simchik" ] Re: Grimsby ["matt sewell" ] Re: Nuggets II [Michael R Godwin ] smoe.org downtime [the other white meat ] Re: Grimsby [Michael R Godwin ] Zep, Art, Cave [The Great Quail ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:10:46 -0500 From: steve Subject: Re: DVD region query >> ...does importing a Region 3 copy of _Crouching Tiger_ >> to pop in your region-free player while it's still playing >> here in the US constitue some kind of copyright >> violation? > > Absolutely, unequivocally, definitely not, in any way > whatsoever, so help me gawd. (Certain people in the > entertainment biz would like you to think otherwise, > of course.) We have decided to spend our foolish tax rebate on a multi-region DVD player. Anyone have a satisfactory experience buying one in the U.S.? I must have one because Buena Vista Japan has an actual release schedule for the Miyazaki flims. - - Steve __________ It is one thing for a software company to hype a product and then fail to deliver; it is another when the failure concerns nuclear weapons, for which "vaporware" takes on a whole new, literal meaning. - The Editors of Scientific American, on SDI ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 00:20:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: Sexy Beast/DVD region query On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, dmw wrote: > i certainly wouldn't expect everyone to LIKE zeppelin, but i think > it's difficult to argue credibly that they had little musical merit. the problem i have with drawing distinctions like this is that to me, "music" is that stuff musicians make, not the body of technical knowledge surrounding it. to talk about musical merit as distinct from artistic merit leaves you in a spot if you want to also discuss brilliant records that have little or no "musical merit". it's as if the Slits' first album is a ghost -- it has merit, but it's not musical merit or lyrical merit or merit in production... of course, to some extent this is just a quibble over language. i think i *understand* what you mean. nevertheless, i feel it's an odd road for so many discussions about records to go down. i'm sure the boys in Led Zeppelin were good at many things, but none of them made me like their music. though, hm, now that i think about it, the one place where it's unquestionably relevant to say "i may not like them but i respect them" is in discussions where someone's making recommendations (which mailing lists threads generally are, in practice) -- in that case, "respect" means something like "i suspect my tastes here may be more the result of idiosyncracy than usual, so i wouldn't tell someone else to avoid the band". or whatever. is it just me, or did anyone else not hear the clever tagline "Roll Your Own Blackout" until about two days ago, despite the email proposing the event having been around for a long time? aaron ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 16:37:01 +1200 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: season cycle >happy summer y'all! roll your own blackout tonight from 1900-2100. it's a >global solstice event rolling across the planet to protest dubya's energy >policy. >unplug what you can and have fun in the dark. humph. It's six degrees here, which shows the separation between here and summer solstice. And I seriously doubt whether me freezing my patooties off would impress Dubya much. Hell, nothing he does impresses me. Still, I did perform a nice little Yule ceremony last night... James James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand. =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= -=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- You talk to me as if from a distance -.-=-.- And I reply with impressions chosen from another time =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-. (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:37:27 -0700 From: "victorian squid" Subject: Re: RIP On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:27:38 Stephen Mahoney wrote: >no way!!!!!!! >he was supposed to be immortal! We went to see him in December. This article is actually a little misleading. Actually it's a lot misleading. What actually happened in Portland (and I see no reason to believe this was an exceptional show) is that he had an excellent, very tight band, and that that, and the ghost of his legend, were what brought the house down. He himself looked as tho he were about to fall off the chair he was sitting on. He seldom managed even three notes in a row and seemed many times to be confused about what song he was playing/singing (and this usually had little relation to what the band was trying to play, tho they did their best to roll with the changes). Everyone all yelled and screamed anyway, but they were really saying "we appreciate who you were and what you did and we're amazed you even made it onto the stage". His son, who warmed up for him, seemed to be the one actually leading the band and generally taking care of business. He had to gently hustle Dad off the stage when it was plain he was too tired to even attempt to do anything anymore but sort of sit there absently (but happily) enjoying the adulation and the band. It was clear that John Lee Hooker and the Coast to Coast Band probably weren't coming around again next year. loveonya, susan Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:25:52 -0700 From: "Andrew D. Simchik" Subject: judging art >From: Glen Uber > >doesn't everyone judge art by how relevant its >ideals are to one's own outlook on life? Nope. If I did that I would have had to love Sophie B. Hawkins' _Timbre_, and what a sorry fate that would be! It's really fucking irritating that all the great musicians don't share my politics, and all the shitty ones don't. Ditto writers. And so on. I'll weigh in on Led Zep because I know you're on the edge of your seats. I detected in Susan's post a history of being surrounded by the Zep, being played by annoying people. When I lived on the frat quad in college, all the frats surrounding our non-frat played Zeppelin whenever they weren't playing Blues Traveler, Phish, or the Dave Motherfucking Matthews Band. I still like the band, but this does color my impression of them. I think they made some kick-ass records that I admire, and I find their sexism and Tolkein to be integral parts of their music. You can't make music like that and sing about much else. I can see how some people would find that a major turnoff. I deal with it, in much the same way I deal with Nick Cave singing in horror about "a fag in a whalebone corset draping his dick across my cheek." I agree that "objective" standards for art are boring, however, and I think you (collective) remember why. >Am I any less of a music fan or >aficionado of rock because I find Zeppelin's music boring, their lyrics >trite, Plant's voice annoying and Page's guitar playing mediocre? If you were, would it be a big deal? I've learned to like Bob Dylan, but I wonder if I'm going to manage >Neil Young. It's a struggle. Drew - -- Andrew D. Simchik, drew at stormgreen dot com http://www.stormgreen.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 13:43:15 +0100 From: "matt sewell" Subject: Re: Grimsby I guess you must have been the unwilling victim of a million young men trying to convince you that you're totally wrong..! Hence the rancour... They're an easy target, though... another reason why I like them. Of course, I was drawn to their heavy rock riffage back when I was a teenager - there must be some kind of link between newly-acquired testosterone and the electric shronk of a heavy metal guitar - but as I've got older, my appreciation of them has become more complex. I still think the music is great, by-and-large, but that's being a sad muso for you, I also appreciate them in that postmodern, ironic way that I normally find so annoying. Also, they're visually hilarious - all that sweat and hair and macho posturing... I defy anyone to watch the fantasy clips in Song Remains the Same (otherwise a tedious mid-70s guitar solo of a movie) and not be completely in stitches... As for the lyrics - another easy target - I find them equally funny... isn't there any room in our culture for cringe-inducing doggerel? Anyway, I'm not looking to convert anyone... Now, what you said about the Doors.... now *that's* another matter! Matt "Jim Morrison 1988-90" Sewell >From: "victorian squid" >Reply-To: "victorian squid" >To: fegmaniax@smoe.org >Subject: Re: Grimsby >Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:13:49 - -0700 > >On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:11:45 matt sewell wrote: > > >Christ, I thought everyone liked LZ... > >Everyone doesn't. > > >macho and saurian they certainly > >And heavy-handed and bombastic, and obsessively, horribly tediously phallocentric. >Also the lyrics are so 6th form "deep, man". Like, wow, we're down to seeds and we're >buying the stairway to heavy, I mean like heaven, man. Dude. That's so sweet. > >loveonya, >susan > > > >Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 14:28:46 +0100 (BST) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Re: Nuggets II On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Eb wrote: > I'd be curious to know if Mike Godwin has any thoughts on Rhino's new > Nuggets box (which intentionally contains no American acts, and focuses on > European sounds). You asked for it. Briefly, there are lots of bands I've never heard of - which doesn't automatically mean that they're crap, but it usually does. It definitely means that they didn't come anywhere near the UK top 10. I would be delighted to hear that some of the obscurities are first-rate, but the only ones I hold out any hope for are the Wimple Winch and Kaleidoscope tracks, and maybe Rupert's People. And there are some big gaps. Obviously the Floyd tracks aren't available, which makes it a bit like those Merseybeat compilations without the Beatles. But couldn't they have licensed some of the Syd solo material? And some early Soft Machine / Kevin Ayers? And some 'Sunshine Superman' period Donovan? How about the (UK) Nirvana? And Art (of Supernatural Fairytale fame)? And the first, excellent Nice album? Come to think of it, there seems to be an emphasis on singles rather than album tracks. Where is 'I'm not your stepping stone' by the Flies? Or anything by Family ('See through windows', 'The breeze', 'Scene through the eye of a lens', 'Voyage' that sort of stuff). And a couple of Yardbirds tracks would not go amiss (Over Under Sideways Down for instance). Junior's Eyes? The Social Deviants? 'The idol' should definitely be there (who was it by?) and some more female vocal bands, such as Eclection and Julie Driscoll & the Brian Auger Trinity. I'm not sure how much of a psychedelic theme it's supposed to have, but to my mind there are too many straight pop / RnB records included (the Easybeats, for goodness sake!). I can see that the blurb mentions mod and RnB, but the cover surely indicates a psychedelic focus. The choice of early RnB Pretty Things when they went on to have an excellent psychedelic phase is inexplicable to me. And I suspect that at least one CD contains mostly fillers. Anyway, here are some detailed remarks for those who care. TRACK LISTING Making Time - The Creation * Not sure why they didn't choose 'Painter Man' - maybe it's on an earlier compilation. Father's Name Was Dad - Fire * Great record, don't anything about the band I Can Hear The Grass Grow - The Move * Wonderful, bought it when it came out on Deram, before they switched to Regal Zonophone. Offers? My Friend Jack - The Smoke * Killer noise, bought it when it came out. Northern band, I think. My White Bicycle - Tomorrow * You already know I'm a Tomorrow fan. I would have picked something different, maybe 'Revolution' (not the Beatles song of the same name) or 'Now your time has come' which has a nice Steve Howe guitar solo. I'll Keep Holding On - The Action * Not a psychedelic record at all, this is a (ugh) mod record. OK apart from that. When The Night Falls - The Eyes * Don't know Sorry - The Easybeats * Don't know this track. In my book, the Easybeats are an Aussie pop group * Imposters Of Life's Magazine - The Idle Race Oh wow, yes. Jeff Lynne on top form, almost as good as 'Skeleton & the Roundabout' How Is The Air Up There? - The La De Das * Don't know this - where _do_ they dig them up? *Mud In Your Eye - Les Fleur De Lys If this is Fleur de Lys (no 'Les') they were a prog soul band in the Vanilla Fudge mould. Everything (That's Mine) - The Motions * No idea Garden Of My Mind - The Mickey Finn * No Take A Heart - The Sorrows * Red hot, Shel Talmy production. The Life I Live - Q'65 * No Midnight To Six Man - The Pretty Things * Got this, of course, but it's early 60s UK RnB, not psychedelic. They should have picked 'S F Sorrow is born' or something else from that album I See The Rain - The Marmalade * I love the Marmalade, recently bought a Greatest Hits album, but I don't know this track. I can guess what it sounds like, though. The First Cut Is The Deepest - The Koobas * This makes no sense at all. The Koobas were a sort of second rate version of the Fortunes ('Here it comes again'/'Storm in a Teacup') and I imagine that this is a very straight reading of the P P Arnold classic written by Cat Stevens IIRC You Stole My Love - The Mockingbirds * No 125 (album version) - The Haunted * No My Mind's Eye - The Small Faces * Uh-huh. There are 5 more psychedelic Small Faces songs than this one, which is just a rip-off of 'Ding Dong Merrily On High'. I'd go for 'Tin Soldier' or maybe 'Afterglow'. Going Nowhere - Los Bravos * The only song I know by this Spanish group is of course 'Black is Black' They used to play it all the time in the Cabana Club in Sitges in 1966... All Night Stand - The Thoughts War Or Hands Of Time - The Masters Apprentices It's A Sin To Go Away - We All Together A Dream For Julie - Kaleidoscope I Read You Like An Open Book - The Tages * Don't know any of these. I might have the Kaleidoscope record somewhere. Children Of The Sun - The Misunderstood * Oh fuck, yes. But they are an American band, contravening the mission statement. And why not turn it over and choose 'I can take you to the sun' instead? Glen 'Fernando' Campbell did later join UK outfit Juicy Lucy. Save My Soul - Wimple Winch * They're very trendy but I don't know much about them. I think they might be proto-prog, actually. Desdemona - John's Children * Used to play this non-stop. Luscious. You can hear Bolan's unmistakable voice echoing 'Desdemona' on the "Lift up your skirts and fly!" chorus. I Can Only Give You Everything - Van Morrison * Well, I know this by Them - probably the same track though. I expect they've altered the billing to cash in on VM. Frankly I prefer the version by the Troggs, which has a better fuzz guitar riff. Lost Girl - The Troggs * Well, talk of the devil. I thought I knew all the Troggs stuff, but this must be an obscure B-side. I Must Be Mad - The Craig Say Those Magic Words - The Birds Baby Your Phrasing Is Bad - Caleb Daddy Buy Me A Girl - Golden Earrings Exit Stage Right - Ronnie Burns * Nope, sorry. The Birds always get on these things because of Ron Wood connection but they didn't mean a thing at the time. Exit Stage Right is of course the catchphrase of Snagglepuss, which dates that one. Are the Golden Earrings the same as Golden Earring, the Dutch band who had a hit with 'Radar Love'? I remember when their van completely destroyed the pavement at Bath Uni ... Gone Is The Sad Man - Timebox * I remember when Timebox had a residency at the Marquee. Very much a John Gee sort of thing with that jazz feel and Ollie Halsall doubling on vibes as well as lead guitar. Trying to remember this track - was it a steal from "I'm not the proud one"? Best record they did was "Beggin'" so it wouldn't surprise me. I'm Rowed Out - The Eyes * nope You've Got A Habit Of Leaving - Davy Jones * this turns up a lot. Not my sort of thing. Reflections Of Charles Brown - Rupert's People * Rings a distant bell. Words Enough To Tell You - The Mascots * no That's The Way It's Got To Be - The Poets * Now we're through is the only Poets number I know. I bet this sounds the same, droning modal chorus and amplified 12-string. 14 Hour Technicolour Dream - The Syn * This is an obvious choice. Did I ever tell you how I was booked up to go to the 14HTD and had to cancel because of a really bad asthma attack? I did catch Games for May, though... Walking Through My Dreams - The Pretty Things * That might be interesting. Why didn't they choose that one that begins "Sitting alone on a bench with you" - what's it called? You Said - The Primitives This Life Of Mine - The Lost Souls * no, no Shadows & Reflections - The Action * See comments on The Action above. Come to think of it, Reg King & co gave up being a mod band and went psychedelic under the name 'Mighty Baby'. That stuff would've been more appropriate, I think. Friday On My Mind - The Easybeats * This is just a nothing top 10 record. In The Land Of The Few - Love Sculpture * Yeah, nice. Dave Edmunds & co were another regular Marquee band in those days, always good value. For Another Man - The Motions * no Fire Brigade - The Move * Well, I love the Eddie Cochran whistle, but the Move did better things than this: Cherry Blossom Clinic, Here we go round the lemon tree, Useless information, Yellow rainbow etc Gaby - The Boots * no Biff! Bang! Pow! - The Creation * Might be all right, but I doubt it. Your Body Not Your Soul - Cuby & The Blizzards * Were they another Dutch band? My spies tell me that the only Dutch group worth listening to are Herman Broud' Wild Romance, and they're a 70s outfit. Cathy, Come Home - The Twilights * never heard it, but I can assure you that it's crap. Circles - Les Fleur De Lys Yes, 9it is the same Fleur de Lys. The 'Les' is quite wrong. This is an old Who number that they covered fairly effectively. Get Down From The Tree (album version) - The Matadors Cry In The Night - Q'65 Changing The Colors Of Life - Los Chijuas Social End Product - The Bluestars * no, collectively Crawdaddy Simone - The Syndicats * I've got a record by the Syndicats somewhere. This'll be straight RnB. Don't You Remember? - The Sound Magics *no It's My Pride - The Guess Who * Canadian harmony band, right? Loathesome if I remember correctly. Unless there were 2 Guess Whos. Magic Potion - The Open Mind You're Driving Me Insane - The Missing Links Who Dat? - The Jury * no. I think they may be scraping the bottom of the barrel. A Midsummer's Night Scene - John's Children * Yes, OK, but I'd rather hear "Come and play with me in the garden" (aka "Remember Thomas a Becket"). Listen To The Sky - Sands How To Find A Lover - The Mockingbirds * no Days Of The Broken Arrows - The Idle Race * Don't know this one. As I said before, why not 'Skeleton & the Roundabout"? By My Side - The Elois Path Through The Forest - The Factory * no Love Hate Revenge - Episode Six * oh Christ, they were young hopefuls in Wembley where I grew up. Always winning talent contests 'cos they were clean-cut and had a pretty girl in the band. Real nothing. Why not choose a great band like Eclection instead? Pictures Of Matchstick Men - The Status Quo * Yes, I loved this record, learned to play it and everything. That was when Francis Rossi was called Mike Rossi (cf. Jim / Roger McGuinn) The Train To Disaster - The Voice Sad - The (Australian) Playboys Slaves Time - The Slaves You Can Be My Baby (single version) - The Red Squares I Wish I Was Five - Scrugg * no. I might just remember 'Sad' if you played it to me. Glendora - The Downliners Sect * Very odd. I thought they were a Merseybeat band, or possibly London RnB. They were one of those endlessly gigging bands who never had a hit. Rosalyn - The Pretty Things * Super record, like an out-of-control version of the Stone version of 'Not fade away'. Strictly RnB. Come On - The Atlantics * Not the Chuck Berry number, surely? The Madman Running Through The Fields - Dantalion's Chariot * Excellent, I'd like a copy of this. Zoot Money's Big Roll Band gone psychedelic. Apparently they were wonderful live. How Does It Feel To Feel (U.S. single version) - The Creation * Yeah, OK I'm Just A Mops - The Mops * I can live without this sort of stuff. I bet it sounds like "We are the moles" by the Moles. Why Don't You Smile Now - The Downliners Sect Nothin' - The Ugly Ducklings Break It All (U.S. single version) - Los Shakers The Bitter Thoughts Of Little Jane - Timon Touch - The Outsiders Vacuum Cleaner - Tintern Abbey My Life - Thor's Hammer Bad Little Woman - The Wheels No Presents For Me - Pandamonium Bat Macumba - Os Mutantes Real Crazy Apartment - Winston's Fumbs No More Now - The Smoke (Nz) No Good Without You - The Birds Kicks & Chicks - The Zipps Dance Around The Maypole - The Acid Gallery Get Yourself Home - The Fairies I'm Your Witchdoctor - The Chants R&B But You'll Never Do It Babe - The Boots One Third - The Majority Flight From Ashiya - Kaleidoscope * Can't comment on most of these. Why not include the Bluesbreakers' version of 'Witchdoctor', which has a very psychedelic break by Clapton? I've just about heard of Winston's Fumbs, they're a Small Faces offshoot. Other people on this list know more about Tintern Abbey and Kaleidoscope than I do. Were there 2 Kaleidoscopes? If not, I'd say they were American. Here Come The Nice - The Small Faces * Again, not my first Small Faces choice. How about 'The Universal'? It's My Fault - The Rattles * German band, not much cop I suspect. When The Alarm Clock Rings - Blossom Toes * Whee! The only fan club I ever belonged to was for Blossom Toes. There were 4 of us. But I would have picked 'What on earth am I doing here?' or 'Saga of the Frozen dog' from the 1st album or anything at all from the (perfect) second album. - Mike Godwin PS And if you're going to include pop records, why not 'Mirror Mirror' by Pinkertons (Assort.) Colours? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:31:52 -0400 From: the other white meat Subject: smoe.org downtime just a head's up: smoe.org will be down for a short period of time sometime this weekend. the exact time is not certain yet, but it's likely to be around 4pm edt (gmt-5) today. woj ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:56:09 +0100 (BST) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Re: Grimsby On Thu, 21 Jun 2001, Mike wells wrote: > ...and how much of it was an amazing synthesis of styles and not simply > the white-man blues ripoffs people ragged them for. "Bron-Yr-Aur" and "Black > Mountain Side?" Tasty Celtic-and-Arabic influenced acoustic guitar pieces. Mm, you've touched a nerve there. If there's one Zeppelin piece which is a white man blues ripoff, it's 'Black Mountainside', which is a straight lift from Bert Jansch's arrangement of the traditional 'Black Waterside'. And as Martin Carthy found, the copyright people won't give you credit for an arrangement. And as for the way in which Page nicked Jeff Beck's arrangement of 'You shook me' and then didn't credit the song to Willie Dixon - words fail me. Not like Clapton, who used to make a point of including a song by an old blues singer so as to earn them some royalties. Dolph wrote: Somehow I have a suspicion that if Cale had stayed in the Velvet Underground long enough to be on their 3rd album, it would be in my Top Five Favorite Records Ever Ever. Well, VU has a few brill tracks from the 'lost' album, notably that "Electricity comes from other planets" one. - - Mike "Doors Si! Zeppelin No!" Godwin PS Who was it accused Cale of being English? Ouch! Listen to 'The Gift' again, bach ... :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:17:32 -0700 From: The Great Quail Subject: Zep, Art, Cave Here comes a real pedantic and argumentative post! Susan says about Zep, >Yet if one person does not love them, it makes people defensive. Ah, but it's not that you posted and said, "I don't love Led Zeppelin, they are not to my taste. I find them X, Y, and Z." You did not make a subjective posting, you made a very objective one, labeling the band with several negative traits: >[The are] heavy-handed and bombastic, and obsessively, horribly >tediously phallocentric. >Also the lyrics are so 6th form "deep, man". Like, wow, we're down >to seeds and we're >buying the stairway to heavy, I mean like heaven, man. Dude. That's so sweet First of all, your mocking tone certainly warrants a fan becoming defensive, so that's hardly surprising. But more importantly, you offered a critique of the band, and Mike just responded -- and very well, I think -- to that critique. He didn't say, "It is incomprehensible that you don't like this band," as you implied in your response. While some people may certainly have taken this attitude with you before, Mike was not -- he was responding to your objective statements, with of course some enthusiastic elaboration. He was trying to say that some of your comments may not be supported by the band's entire output. Glen then remarked, regarding Eb's comment: >What sort of comment is that? Art in and of itself is subjective. Call me >stupid (I heard that!), but doesn't everyone judge art by how relevant its >ideals are to one's own outlook on life? If that were not the case then all >art would be the same and would have to be judged equally and >non-subjectively. What fun would that be? I disagree. First of all, the alleged object of art is not subjective, it is objective, it simply exists. And while the *appreciation* and *recognition* of art certainly has subjective components; there are also an objective ones. For instance, a haiku, sonnet, sonata, or even a chair should follow a form, and may be criticized under a set of objective criteria. Even less structured objects of art can be appraised with a certain degree of objectivity, often relating to the skill of the artist: for better or worse, whole schools of criticism have grown up around these ideas. Secondly, I do not believe everyone *judges* art by how relevant it is to their own personal ideals. There are many other factors involved. Just because something may not be to your taste, doesn't mean that you cannot respect its artistry, originality, craftsmanship, and so on. As doug implied, you really can't say Jimmy Page was not a skillful guitarist; even if you think he was bombastic or whatever. In other words, I think your statement -- and the conclusion you draw -- is too simplistic, and implies that critiquing art, judging it, appreciating it, respecting it, and liking it are all one and the same. Drew says: >I deal with it, in much the same way I deal with Nick Cave singing >in horror about "a fag in a whalebone corset draping his dick across >my cheek." Ah, but that's Nick Cave singing as a "character" in his song. I don't interpret this to mean that Nick Cave is homophobic; after all, I know a few gay men who might complain about waking up at some twisted bordello with "a fag in a whalebone corset draping his dick across my cheek." It's intense imagery -- the whole song is a howl of anger and pain, really. The character singing the song comes across as being quite authentic, I feel.... - --The disagreeable Quail ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V10 #252 ********************************