From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V10 #242 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Friday, June 15 2001 Volume 10 : Number 242 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: act your age judge [Stephen Mahoney ] kidses ["Andrew D. Simchik" ] Re: kidses [Stephen Mahoney ] sport, politics, and shoes [grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan)] Re: kidses [Capuchin ] Act your IQ, not your blood alcohol level! [Capuchin ] Warping thru Time ["Tigger Lily" ] A Vincent Black Lightning, 1952 [Jeff Dwarf ] Re: Take me out to the big underground pyramid [steve ] the real lowdown on political philosophy [steve ] Re: Political compass [grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan)] Re: Political compass [Jeff Dwarf ] new mp3 format released [bayard ] Re: Political compass [Miles Goosens ] Re: Political compass [Miles Goosens ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 15:58:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Stephen Mahoney Subject: Re: act your age judge knock knock,open up its the pol....er... pizza delivery! On Thu, 14 Jun 2001, victorian squid wrote: > to knock and identify themselves when dealing with drug cases. Here is article: > http://reagan.com/HotTopics.main/HotMike/document-4.29.1997.0.html > > loveonya, > susan > > > > > > > Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com > anagram: MacDonalds = Clam and Sod Stephen Mahoney Multnomah County Library at Rockwood branch clerk stephenm@nethost.multnomah.lib.or.us 503-988-5396 fax 503-988-5178 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:03:41 -0700 From: "Andrew D. Simchik" Subject: kidses >From: Capuchin >In tutoring dozens of students for their "Mathematics for elementary >school teachers" courses while in college, I developed the extremely >cynical (but quite real) belief that people teach elementary school >because that's the most complex material they can comprehend >themselves. Honestly, most of these people were extremely dubious about >long division. Well, I suspect that most people who teach elementary school do it because they like helping kids that age learn, and only secondarily because they are fascinated by complex intellectual subjects. I also suspect that few of them are all that strong at math, though they may have some love for English or history. At that level, I think that if there's a choice, I'd rather see a teacher who enjoys teaching kids than a teacher who's a nearly-brilliant mathematician but didn't get that cushy collegiate job. Hell, even in college I learned a lot less from geniuses who hated teaching (paging my Calc prof) than relatively mediocre intellectuals who liked their jobs. >From: Eb >Homer Simpson's Phrase in Dictionary Nothing personal, dude, but sometimes I hate the internet. I have heard this earth-shattering news at least ten times today. Drew - -- Andrew D. Simchik, drew at stormgreen dot com http://www.stormgreen.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:22:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Stephen Mahoney Subject: Re: kidses On Thu, 14 Jun 2001, Andrew D. Simchik wrote: > Hell, even in college I learned a lot less from geniuses who hated > teaching (paging my Calc prof) than relatively mediocre intellectuals > who liked their jobs. and every once in awhile theres a(1) genius who(2) loves to teach and is (3)good at it. very few of them indeed. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:19:18 +1200 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: sport, politics, and shoes >> Rugger: A game for hooligans played by gentlemen >> Soccer: A game for gentlemen played by ruffians > >You're forgetting Rugby League, which is a game for professional hooligans >from the North of England (although, bizarrely, the Rugby League Cup Final >used to be played at Wembley until the recent fiasco). It's moderately >easy to tell the difference as Rugby Union has XV players per side, >whereas Rugby League has (I think) XIII. I believe that Union has gone >professional now, too, so the gentlemen seem to have fallen by the >wayside. as I said: football, soccer, and league! Rugby Union (football) is favoured in NZ, South Africa, Wales, Scotland, France, parts of Australia, and the south of England. 15 a side, lots of scrums, lineouts, ball is released in a tackle often leading to change of possession. (Rugby) League is favoured in the north of England and parts of Australia. 13 a side, eams can be tackled six times before they automatically release possession. After a tackle a player stands and 'paws the ground', moving the ball behind him to a waiting player of the same team - this is probably the easiest way to tell the codes apart. Also, traditionally (but less often nowadays), RU players wear hooped shirts, RL players wear shirts with "V" patterns. Bring back Eddie Waring, I say! >> > - -Wars and social chaos may well be ended by a catastrophic >> > flood or earthquake. sure - they could entirely wipe out both warring factions. The question is whether you interpret it to mean "Will God send down a disaster to stop a war?" or "given that there is a war and a disaster, could the latter stop the former?" >> a parent said to her three kids when checking out books >> "act your age, not your shoe size" >> >> was that a saying before the prince song? it must have been! > >I thought maybe you were kidding, but I'm going to write as though you're >not. > >My older sister used to say that to me in the late seventies. I remember >my witty comeback (when I was maybe five?), "My shoe size is >thirteen!" > >I imagine it's not an idiom common outside the US. :) well it was common in the UK before I moved to NZ in 1975... and it's certainly common here, too, as is "is that your shoe size or your IQ?" James James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand. =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= -=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- You talk to me as if from a distance -.-=-.- And I reply with impressions chosen from another time =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-. (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:38:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: kidses On Thu, 14 Jun 2001, Andrew D. Simchik wrote: > Well, I suspect that most people who teach elementary school do it > because they like helping kids that age learn, and only secondarily > because they are fascinated by complex intellectual subjects. Actually, my thesis was that they teach elementary school because the like the IDEA of helping kids and are trying to avoid complex subjects. Most of them are only capable of teaching the most mechanical applications and almost none of them know why their processes work. This is exactly the way computers are introduced to children in school. > I also suspect that few of them are all that strong at math, though > they may have some love for English or history. Slightly tangential: There was a very bizarre tendency at my university to assume that, because the humanities and language students (who did so much writing) were terrible at mathematics, the mathematics department was obviously deficient in writing education. As a result, there was a one credit sophomore level mathematics class that involved writing twelve to twenty pages per week. Of course, all of the writing was quite passable because we'd all taken HEAPS of writing in the past. They forget that while writing is an essential part of at least eighty percent of the liberal arts curriculum, mathematics is part of less than five percent. > At that level, I think that if there's a choice, I'd rather see a > teacher who enjoys teaching kids than a teacher who's a > nearly-brilliant mathematician but didn't get that cushy collegiate > job. How about a teacher who can answer students' questions on a subject? How about a teacher who understands the underlying principles well enough to give a second or (heaven forfend!) third and different explanation to help those students failing to grasp a topic the first time around? I'm not talking about "brilliant" or even "nearly-brilliant". I'm talking about competent. Here are three answers to "What is the decimal system?" I received in Mathematics for Elementary Educators: "The decimal system is when we put dots in numbers like 1.5" "The decimal system allows us to have numbers less than ten." "The decimal system is a system of putting a point between whole numbers and parts of whole numbers." Phew! Out of five points for a correct answer, if I were feeling QUITE generous, I'd give the second and third answers one point... but I'd have to be in a GREAT mood. All three of these students passed the class. At least one of them (I forget which) was taking it for the third time. I'm sure at least one of those three is a real live public school teacher today. > Hell, even in college I learned a lot less from geniuses who hated > teaching (paging my Calc prof) than relatively mediocre intellectuals > who liked their jobs. We all have that experience. I'm certainly not implying that all teachers must be in the top of their field... nor am I implying that people at the top of their field are the best teachers. In fact, I don't think I came close to mentioning or supporting either of those notions. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:42:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Act your IQ, not your blood alcohol level! Re: "Act your age, not your shoe size" On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, James Dignan wrote: > well it was common in the UK before I moved to NZ in 1975... and it's > certainly common here, too, as is "is that your shoe size or your IQ?" That surprises me because when we buy shoes here with "european sizing" the numbers are quite large. For example, my Mephistos are size 42 while my Chuck Taylors are size 10. Oh, and for those that don't use sizes like that, there are two size thirteens... one for very large feet and one that is just below size 1. It's the largest childrens' size. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:30:06 -0400 From: Terrence Marks Subject: Re: hackin' and coffin > It's nice to hear that he may not be as moronic as he appears. > Of course, this doesn't excuse the non-sequitur lyrics of "Fly." > I'm quoting from memory: > > "All around the world, statues crumble for me > Who knows how long I've loved you? > Everyone I know has been so good to me > 25 years old, my mother, God rest her soul" > > And so on. I do not know what the fuck this means. It actually > looks less stupid written out than it sounds when sung, which is > an achievement of sorts, I guess. Perhaps he studied the Dadaists > at Cambridge? Hmm.... Am I the only one here who thinks that Robert Wyatt probably could've pulled off a song with lyrics like that? - -- Terrence Marks Unlike Minerva (a comic strip) http://www.unlikeminerva.com The Nice (an organization for comic strips) http://nice.purrsia.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 03:12:11 -0000 From: "Tigger Lily" Subject: Warping thru Time First of all I want to explain/apologize bout the repetative Bball messages showing up recently but really from quite a few days ago. I did not mean to insult Bono 3 times, once really would have been enough. I was sending messages in, they werent showing up so I would send it again.... Anyway--sorry to waste peoples time and space. Its either Woj or syncronisity but--Lets do the Time Warp Again. - --------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you folks who brought up that the political compass thing is subjective, overly-simplified and flawed. It is--but hey... The following is 4 digests and my own ramblings smushed together. You stand warned. Im not suprised our Feg left/right orientation is not entirely uniform(thou, on a whole IMHO, left of your average American) but -everyone- it seems is pretty libertarian(and I think there is some accuracy in that if the comparison(sorry all Non-Yanks) is to the average American Homer.) I think of left/right as being pro-people/pro-corporations and liberterian/authoritarian as being pro-freedom/ pro-control. Obviously Im not a politico, these are loose intuitive definitions for me. I wonder if the kind of psych which thrives on Robyn's elliptical, seemingly chaotic, often surreal imagery --where little is laid out plainly for you and everything can metamorphasize in a heartbeat -- are psyches inherently comfortable with freedom? I got it off Plastic where there was a really good comment on it. The poster said how it was just a redo of an old Dungeons n Dragons thing, where characters are created along the axi of good/evil and chaos/law. This was his example: Lawful Good:King Arthur Lawful Evil: Emporer Plalapine Chaotic Evil: I forget, but for Star Wars I'd offer up Jabba the Hut or for Arthurian Balan Chaotic Good: Han Solo I never did D n D but I bet some of you have. Does this hold water? So--metamorphising it all slightly more--and assuming Left = Good (which I think -most- of us would agree with;-) does that mean we're all ... Han Solo? (Is that a Harrison Ford poster rolled up in your desk or are you just glad to see me?) Yes-Im punchy and its summer so Ive gone absurdest. And Ive finially come up with a label Im not entirely uncomfortabe with: Chaos Christian:-). Continuing on in an absurdest and now poetastical vein: Drew: >even I would rather fuck Mark McGrath >than Robyn, as long as I wouldn't have to talk to him afterward. Ahhhh but Drew-- The problem is -- you do. >All around the world, statues crumble for me Maybe he's a secret Robyn admirer and the song is his very misguided attempt to imitate Underwater Moonlight? Dont think of it as fucking him, think of it as a caring attempt to enlighten the poor boy. He -needs- you, Drew. Dont deny him! It wouldnt be good Etiquette.:-) Capuchin: >JH3 is certainly correct in their failing to have a disinterested >option, >but it would really require a third axis to run from "civic" to >"egoist". Id bet an overwhelming Feg outcome towards, yup, egotist. Or am I just projecting from my own vigorous amour-proper onto everyone;-)? Hmmm-so putting in the 3rd axis then Im a Kaos Kristian(scuse me--my shoe is ringing.) (bet no one undr 40 gets -that- one;-) >You THINK you're more "left" than you really are. Hell, you >supported Gore. Was Gore elected? Hmmm, let me rephrase that--is Gore now in Europe making a boobie of himself? I know you dont like this--but Fegs you think are conservative are considered left of center in America. Maybe not in the corner of America you live in, but America as a whole. The fact is that feg conservatives voted for Gore but at least considered long n hard bout voting for Nader. Thats more left than 75% of the American public for whom Nader wasnt even on the screen. Just to even things out--I very much agree with you that people's attitude towards children is -very- relevant to their political stance. The idea that your children are your property is one of the most perniscious on the planet(IMHO.) And lacks respect(Drew) for every human as a human. This said--you also have to sit on the little buggers so they dont blow things, themselves or you up inadvertenly. BTW, judging from your answer to Jill--youre going to make a good parent if you so choose(and having dropped the bomb--I will now run like hell;-) Mike: >Was thinking last night how I emabarassed I should be for having >missed >the >best, really most obvious one: >"Tangled Up In Blue" by Uncle Bob I kept thinking of that one,-- but then thought it was cause it mentions Dante, getting his century 1/2 wrong, and deciding that alone wasnt enough. But yeah--dosnt it start--"twas in another lifetime...." or is that "Shelter from the Storm"? That one niggles me too. Hell, that whole albumn niggles me. Unbeleivably great albumn. >Mike, whose "lower right quadrant" rating makes him look like Himmler >on >this list. Well not Himmler. I dont -think- youve murdered anyone recently(does the rest of the list know about your -real- job.) Would you settle for Speer;-). Ross: >Kay *You* should know that the ultimate time song >is-- Yes I should! But yestersday's songs can be like ...sigh, yesterday's papers;-). Sam or Mick singing? Or should I know that too;-)? Speaking of time songs-- we all missed, even with the Woody Allen clue- "Play it Sam. If she can take it so can I." >Also loved "What's Up Tiger Lilly" cause I like >MST3K type humor and cause it had some great >shots of the Lovin' Spoonful acting all goofy. Id forgotten that. And they -always- acted goofy. 3 of them were from nearby on Long Island where I partially grew up. Always goofy. Must rent Tiger Lily to see them. Is it Tiger Lily or Casino Royal where Woody plays the evil son? John: >Not only can I contradict >apparent rationalizations, I don't even believe my own >applications! Heh(thats a techie joke, right?). A poet after my own heart. Or rather mind. Truth, if it exists at all, tis far too great for my big little ego to entirely comprehend it. So it fragments into pieces sufficiently limited for my consiousness to comphrehend. And I pick up my fragmented piece and try to beat other people over the head with it cause theyre too pigheaded to admit my little piece is shinier than theirs. Morons;-). But short of turning into Keanu Reeves at the end of the Matrix(and I refuse to turn into Keanu Reeves under -any- circumstance;-)--what are the alternatives? >Also, I think if you're going to put a third axis in there, you could >do worse than "realist vs. utopian." I say make that the 4th axis. We are fast approuching Chris's multi-dimensional fractal blob. Except on this one I want to be on both ends of the axis. That must mean I want to apply my rationalized contradictions.(Whew, thats a mouthful;-) Max: >I'm going in a couple of weeks, I'll post a review. The movie is one >of >my all time favorites. Please do. Mine too. By the time I can afford to see it(the play of the Producers) it will be staring Rick Springfield and Sean Cassidy at a dinner theater somewhere. I hope Nathan Lane is a as good in it as I think he should be. Lucky you. Jill: >As for Sugar Ray and Andrew and fucking and all that, Andrew (!!), >what a >horrible fate!!! It must be very frustrating not to desire >the body when >the brain is so good. I always fall for the brain, >which, in my ancient >past wasn't always such a good idea because >great brains can also create >great mindfuckers, and I'd rather have >it somewhere else. Jill, have I told you lately that I love you?:-) Thats a perfect nutshell. And--if you get tired of the "Beacause I say so" bit to your kids--heres a way to sneak some really insidious torture in. Kid: "Its not fair. I hate you. Youre the worse mom in the world. Everybody else can do it. Why can't I?" Me: "There are 5 good reasons-- can you think what some of them are?" Kid will see this as a logic/intelligence challenge and actually try to think out why you're taking the position you are--so they can argue against it. Let them come up with a few reasons then... Me: "Those are pretty good but you forgot the most important one" Kid: "Whats that?" Me: "BECAUSE I SAY SO. THE OTHER 4 DONT MATTER!" The only drawback is it only works once, so use it wisely. Hmmm-perhaps -Im- the Himmler of the list;-). James: >Hell, you can't play hockey if there's any ice around - it's too cold >and >the players would fall over! Hockey is played on a field slightly >smaller >than a soccer field, but with smaller goals and a much >smaller ball, about >the size of a cricket ball. As in soccer, one >point is awarded for each >goal. Hockey, like soccer, favours a medium >build, able to sprint, but >also to turn rapidly. Here in weird America hockey as you describe it is -only- played by girls at private schools with outdoor fields. Its called field hockey and dosnt really -count-. Dont tell my daughter this, who is fantastic with the stick and specializes in wacking opponents in the kneecaps. She thinks any game where you get to permenently cripple others is a gas and counts. We dont want to disillusion her innocence. >There is a similar >sport played with a puck. This is called *ice* >hockey, >and involves >two heavily padded teams hitting each other >with sticks >until full >time or three submissions, whichever comes >first. Or which ever team looses all its teeth first. Please-- read the rules before you spout off. >Hurley, which is like a cross between hockey and soccer as >it would be played by berserkers. How -did- you know Judy's last name?(the girl who went -under- me to score in bball.) And yes, she was a berserker. Isnt Hurley the one on ice with brooms? And everyone hopes a player will fall over so their kilt will flip up. But with it being played on ice theres shrinkage so its not -quite- as exciting as it sounds. Oh and instead of a ball they use this thing which looks like a small metal vacumn cleaner. BTW--if you can make -any- American understand cricket, I'll eat my 76ers flag(which it looks like Im going to have to do anyway. Sob.) Steve--love your link. With trepidation in my heart, sure that they would ask me my hair color and then tell me I was Brittany Spears, I entered the fearsome portals to discover my inner rock star is --SADE. I love it. Im African-American. Im a Marquis. Plus I can really sing! Its perfect. I finally get to be slinky and cool. Eb--what, a non-music post! Fie. But a great word post. Thanks. Kay _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:23:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: A Vincent Black Lightning, 1952 "Jason R. Thornton" wrote: > Mark Gloster wrote: > >I love Molly Ivins political work. I've had to put down her > >book about jr. Shrub. Unlike most books I put down, I am sure > >I'll pick it up again. I know she has been struggling with > >cancer and I hope she'll be okay and write for a looooong > >time. > Oh man, I didn't know about this. I used to share an apartment with > her niece (and some other girls) back in the early 1990's. Molly > took us out to brunch once, right around the time Ross Perot was > making big political waves, and she had some hilarious stories to > tell about a man I knew very little about at the time. She's a very > sweet and very funny lady, and I really hope she'll come through this > as well. actually, she's been in remission since last late summer/early fall; wrote a single column about it and how all the life-affirming changing feelings etc that people talk about when they have cancer didn't happen to her; that she promised to be just as mean as ever. she has recently cut back to two columns a week so she can work more on books and other longer pieces. a good archive if you have local newspapers who don't like to carry liberal/progressive columnists: http://www.sacbee.com/voices/national/ivins/ ===== "Loyalty to a petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul." Mark Twain "For every fatal shooting, there were roughly three non-fatal shootings. And, folks, this is unacceptable in America. It's just unacceptable. And we're going to do something about it." George W. Bush, May 14, 2001 Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:53:29 -0500 From: steve Subject: Re: Take me out to the big underground pyramid On Thursday, June 14, 2001, at 11:22 AM, Viv Lyon wrote: > Colin Wilson! He's a crackpot, not a philosopher! What? Nobody can tell me that The Space Vampires is not a work of great philosophical import. http://www.raintaxi.com/wilson.htm http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jbmorgan/cwlinks.html - - Stev __________ At least three top White House advisers involved in drafting President Bush's energy strategy held stock in the Enron Corporation or earned fees from the large Texas-based energy trading company, which lobbied aggressively to shape the administration's approach to energy issues. - Joseph Kahn, New York Times ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:01:06 -0500 From: steve Subject: the real lowdown on political philosophy http://lowendmac.com/uk/010614.html - - Steve __________ "...if you're having a hard time deciding whether you're actually talking to your best friend or a giant bug from the Proxima system wearing a mask of your best friend - you're having a phildickian moment." - K.W. Jeter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 21:10:15 +1200 From: grutness@surf4nix.com (James Dignan) Subject: Re: Political compass ye gods, my scores are almost level with Red Ken's! but also, ye gods some of the questions are shite! "My country has lots of unique virtues." What country doesn't? "Sex and sin are two sides of the same coin" Does that mean they're the same, or opposites? James James Dignan, Dunedin, New Zealand. =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-= -=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.- .-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=- You talk to me as if from a distance -.-=-.- And I reply with impressions chosen from another time =-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-.-=-. (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 04:03:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: Re: Political compass - --- James Dignan wrote: > ye gods, my scores are almost level with Red Ken's! > > but also, ye gods some of the questions are shite! > > "My country has lots of unique virtues." > What country doesn't? > > "Sex and sin are two sides of the same coin" > Does that mean they're the same, or opposites? "Class background determines peoples' consciousness more than their membership of a particular nation." history (especially in the 20th century) has shown this to not be terribly true; once WWI started german workers became germans first and british workers became british first, etc. it's matter of interpreting history, not of socio-political philosophy. ===== "Loyalty to a petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul." Mark Twain "For every fatal shooting, there were roughly three non-fatal shootings. And, folks, this is unacceptable in America. It's just unacceptable. And we're going to do something about it." George W. Bush, May 14, 2001 Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 07:40:39 -0700 (PDT) From: bayard Subject: new mp3 format released http://formen.ign.com/news/35808.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:14:27 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: Political compass At 09:10 PM 6/15/2001 +1200, James Dignan wrote: >ye gods, my scores are almost level with Red Ken's! That's where I ended up too. We too (two?) can be Lord Mayor of London. Slap me silly and call me "Dick Whittington." >but also, ye gods some of the questions are shite! Indeedy. I'll also second those who wanted a "Don't care" choice. Seemed like a very Poly Sci sorta approach, that quiz. (And I don't mean Jean Bethke Elshtain or George Graham's fluid construction of "poly sci," but the type of recidivist positivists who emphasize the "science" part of the moniker.) Incidentally, I'm delighted to see that Rose McGowan is joining the cast of CHARMED, but I question their logic of the show's producers if they think they're getting someone who's easier to work with than Shannen Doherty. Shannen may be a temperamental prima donna, but Rose is Clearly Insane. Utterly voluptuously delectable, but Clearly Insane. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:52:03 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: Political compass At 04:03 AM 6/15/2001 -0700, Jeff Dwarf wrote: >"Class background determines peoples' consciousness more than their >membership of a particular nation." > >history (especially in the 20th century) has shown this to not be >terribly true; once WWI started german workers became germans first and >british workers became british first, etc. it's matter of interpreting >history, not of socio-political philosophy. I didn't think this was one of the bad questions, even if it was a sort of standard "commie/economic determinist" detector. I just got done taking the methodology to task, but it's determining *your* tendencies. In your case, sounds like you'd answer "disagree" or "strongly disagree" and you'd be accurately pegged, at least on this one issue. As for WWI, as the slaughter went on to no visible end, every European army was faced with soldiers "striking" and the threat of revolution at home. The French government put down a huge rebellion in the ranks in 1917, even though a "nationalism uber alles" theory would dictate that the French would be the *most* committed of the western combatants, since the Germans were occupying their sacred soil 'n' all. Russia *did* collapse. Desertions in the Italian and Austro-Hungarian armies were enormous, and by 1917 both nations needed units from their more committed allies just to keep their fronts stable. At war's end, Germany had its moment of social chaos, and several other European states (Romania) had socialist governments.* Even stolid Britain eventually elevated Labour's Ramsay MacDonald to PM (though he wasn't any more a socialist than Bill Clinton is a Democrat). While I'd say that war-weariness had a lot more to do with all this than an overarching "workers/soldiers of the world unite" consciousness, the latter quality *was* present and shouldn't be discounted. Nationalism shouldn't be discounted either, since it held millions in the trenches for years of grim attrition, but even that had its limits. There's no question that all the belligerents entered the war with an impressive surge of nationalist fervor; I think there's little question that nothing but the threat of cold steel kept the war machines running. OK, I've just turned this into a more complex WWI argument. The recovering academic in me still gets bent out of shape at sweeping phrases like "history has shown," when usually what "history has shown" us is umpteen shades of grey rather than something as cut and dried as class being irrelevant or nationalism being dominant. (I'd also venture that the wealthy act with considerably more "consciousness" of their position than those in other socioeconomic rungs. Or maybe it's just that I like Fitzgerald more than Hemingway.) later, Miles *The U.S. did its usual part in trying to suppress them, as the Herbert Hoover-led American relief efforts withheld their medical and food aid until "acceptable" governments were in place. ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V10 #242 ********************************