From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V10 #156 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Wednesday, April 25 2001 Volume 10 : Number 156 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Ghost Threads, Take 1 ["Spring Cherry" ] Let me invest in you, GSS. [Capuchin ] Re: Violence? [Stephen Mahoney ] Re: FTAA [Capuchin ] let's go ride a bike [Viv Lyon ] Re: I was an anar-CHIST! I was the anti-CHRIST! [Capuchin ] WanderLust ["Sirloin Stockade" ] Re: let's go ride a bike [Stephen Mahoney ] Re: let's go ride a bike [dmw ] Ghost Threads, Take 2 or biking thru ["Spring Cherry" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 22:53:47 -0000 From: "Spring Cherry" Subject: Ghost Threads, Take 1 Its Wednesday evening. I havent read any digests since Fri night. There are 15 ahead of me. So to reinvent the past... Digets 139-141 GSS wrote: >Cayard Batron wrote: So Bayard, is it pronounced Cay or Key?;-) Ross: >Man reads death, woman reads sex, same old thing happen every day. :) Well, it is -still- the same ole story... Glad the 2 Bobs keep you interested in poetry. If you could go back in time with today's tech, and you recorded Robert Johnson(the third Bob?), what would it sound like? Would the lyrics be clearer or was that his voice? Inky connecting to my mind: I hear it as "head", not "hair", on the tennis court. I get an image of a severed head bouncing on a grass court like a tennis ball. Macabre and beautiful. Like Gory or "Im Set Free." Kovar: >Unfortunately, part of the same attraction I have for >Robyn H and his ability to tap into madness yet stay sane also makes >me >fascinated by sick folks like Lennon's killer and the Columbine boys. Funny, I dont see them as the same. At all. Robyn experiences things within, no one is effected but him. These sickies choose to externalize it and great harm is done. Branscombe: >I believe both the >hypothalamus and the amygdala have strong sexual functions). Hypothalamus is like the control center of the brain, it coordinates, and its where a sensation can turn into an emotion or reaction. It also influences how the pituitary secretes hormones. The amygdala has to do with emotion -and- memory. Still, how do we know for sure the songs talking brain physiology? I like the idea thou that the first world took rock n roll from Africa, the third world -- but gives nothing back for it but ill. Kay, digesting away _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:00:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Let me invest in you, GSS. On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, GSS wrote: > Good fences make good neighbors but only when the fence is low and the > gates swing freely in both directions. This makes no sense to me. It's not a fence if the gate's always open and you can hope over it anywhere you like. > What NAFTA alone has done for Mexico, especially Northern Mexico in > regard to the standard of living for many people is unbelievable. I've heard this same sentence from both sides. > There are huge subdivisions of middle class homes going in all across > the Texas/Mexican border. Oooh! Subdivisions! Do they have Taco Bell and Wal*Mart, too? That's progress! Subdivisions are the veal fattening pens of corporate culture. It's where consumers are born and bred. Subdivisions are a means of disconnecting people from the world that surrounds them and filling that void with surrogate world of television and consumables. > There is a new powerful third class in an area that previously had > two. And how does this class have power? They don't have land and they're not the food-producing labor. What makes you say they are powerful? > There will be problems of course, but with open borders we can go > anywhere and help organize the people around these problem areas to > find a solution. Except when that organization is considered a barrier to trade... > If all we do is allow the current elite, politicians, landowners etc. > to retain control of these economies, nothing will ever change. Huh? Removing all barriers to trade just makes it easier for those with money and power to take control over new markets. > Feed 'em just enough you and they will just stand there waiting to be > fed again. Feed them well and they will have the extra time and the > extra energy needed to start feeding themselves. Except they don't own the land anymore and it's illegal for them to grow their indigenous crops. > Don't misunderstand me, some of the corporations have and will bring a > great deal of problems, but for instance the initial estimates of > waste and chemical runoff that was expected to wash right out into the > Gulf of Mexico from the Rio Grande as a result of the flurry of large > business developments both Mexican and American, and the huge number > of small and medium sized businesses opened by Mexicans as a result of > these big businesses, has not come to be. Has the amount of waste and chemical run-off gone DOWN? No. Has it stayed the same? No. It's just not AS BAD as projected. I've used the analogy before, but if you're driving south at 100 Mph, it doesn't do a bit of good to slow to 60 if you want to be driving north. > Allowing foreign investors, be they small or medium level companies, > and corporations to invest in these countries is the first step that > absolutely must be made. G, this is important. Investment does not add money to an economy. Investment is not "welfare". Investment is when a company brings in a small amount of money now in order to draw out a large amount of money later. When Wal*Mart comes into a community, they "invest" and create jobs, but they never spend more than they draw out... that's not profitable. Only by taking more money out than they put in can a company succeed in a profit-motivated system. You can't always get more out than you put in... somebody loses. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:04:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Stephen Mahoney Subject: Re: Violence? yeah the destruction of personal property is intimidating and those who believe nader underminded gores election will always believe that and yes buddism is cool because it does promote the idea that the physical world is illusion thus detaching ourselves from it and becoming more concerned with say our personal spiritual enrichment. and maybe the reason many of us are so much in opposition of the wto and the world bank is that they can operate outside of any jurisdiction and there has been a history of corruption which has burnt the weaker people in the past so why should we trust it? if only the nader and gore camps could stop bickering and try to work together......that is after gore cuts his ties with corporate( us and multnational) sponsers. call me silly, but progress can be made. and as far as unsafe bike riders are concerned, they should know that the basic laws of science are against them, so if those certain individuals get their kicks zig-zagging between cars and accidentally get obliterated into a million bits, well thats physics! another of my overused .02 cents! are there any byrne fans out there? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:24:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: FTAA On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, GSS wrote: > What is wrong with immigration? Where do you live? > > Did you mean "brain-drain of the third world" or did you actually mean > what you typed? I think JH3 put it best, but I'll put my few cents. The best and the brightest (but not the most ethical or long-sighted) come to the US (or other complicit first world nation) to get their education. Then they stay and make more money. All the while, their motherland has one less smart, ambitious person to solve local problems and defend local people. The whole process increases third world dependence and staves off fair trade, let alone self-sufficiency of nations. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:32:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Viv Lyon Subject: let's go ride a bike On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Stephen Mahoney wrote: > if only the nader and gore camps could stop bickering and try to work > together.... You mean, if the Green Party and the non-DLC part of the Democratic party could get together, right? The Naderites and the Gore people are never going to get together. But if they stop thinking of themselves as supporters of one person or another and start thinking of themselves as people with similar goals, maybe then there's a little hope. > and as far as unsafe bike riders are concerned, they should know that the > basic laws of science are against them, so if those certain individuals > get their kicks zig-zagging between cars and accidentally get obliterated > into a million bits, well thats physics! > another of my overused .02 cents! Yeah, doing stupid things on a bike is, well, stupid. However, I am an extremely cautious bike rider and have my life threatened by the willful caprice or simple negligence of car-drivers all the time. They, of course, should remember that there other laws besides those of physics, and some of those laws will come back to bite them should they one day succeed in running me down. Vivien ps- the goal of Critical Mass is not to stop traffic, but rather to highlight the fact that legally, cyclists ARE traffic, and deserve the same rights (and responsibilities) as car drivers. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:35:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: I was an anar-CHIST! I was the anti-CHRIST! On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Christopher Gross wrote (both quotes): > > > It's more like this (I'm speaking for myself here, not Pat): a person > > > who joins the "black bloc" and smashes the window of a Gap, thinking > > > that this is a good political tactic, probably has a predisposition to > > > violence. Persons with such a predisposition are not going to get it > > > out of their systems and spend the rest of their lives peacefully; > > > they're more likely to commit violence again, whether or not they have > > > a political excuse for it. NOTE: I don't claim *all* anarchists (or > > > other violent radical demonstrators) are predisposed to violence, > > > though I do suspect a good many of them are. And I don't think > > > everyone who has had violent tendencies will always be that way; some > > > of them probably do grow out of it.> > > I don't think so. The way I understand it, the idea of a "gateway drug" > is that it's a drug that leads you to take other drugs and become a > junkie. If it wasn't for the "gateway drug," supposedly, you'd never have > tried any other drugs either. It's the drug's fault. The equivalent of > this in violent protest would be if smashing The Gap's window led you to > commit other violent acts, which you never would have done if it wasn't > for that first "gateway" act of violence. My argument was almost exactly > the REVERSE of this. I think these people, or many of them, have a > tendency toward violence as a part of their personalities. This makes > them more likely to choose violent ways to protest now, and it will > similarly make them more likely to act violent throughout their > lives. One bit of violence doesn't cause any of the others, and there > is no "gateway" act. Do you see the difference? You can still say I'm > full of shit, just don't go misrepresentin' my arguments.... Actually, I wasn't misrepresentin'. We just had different understandings, going in, of the 'gateway drug' argument. And, as far as I'm concerned, you're still in line with my perception of it. The idea of a "gateway drug" is that it is a socially acceptable drug with relatively mild effectives that "opens the door" to more dangerous and less socially acceptable drugs in the future. The classic example, of course, is the reefer -> heroin argument. I understood what you were saying to mean that a person would go out on a "protest" and smash some windows or throw a rock at a cop and that kind of violence would become casual enough so that other forms of violence seemed less frightening or repulsive and the person was more willing to commit them on through life. If you're not saying that and you ARE just saying that there are people who CAN commit violence and people who CANNOT, then what's the point? A person who can be violent at a protest may be violent elsewhere (given proper stimulus). But it is equally true that people who cannot be violent at a protest (because they don't agree with violence in that context and have self-control or because they aren't moved to violence by their political beliefs) may be violent in other situations given proper stimulus (say, their romantic jealousies move them to violence or defensiveness of their personal pride). We all admit that there are some people who cannot commit acts of violence under anything like normal circumstance. They abhor it and it's not part of their composition. They are incredibly unlikely to commit violence in the future. There is a chance that any random person fits in this category UNLESS that person is known to have or is currently committing an act of violence. If that's the case, then the surely this person is capable of violence and then (because of their exclusion from the "wholly non-violent" category) is slightly more likely than a random person to commit an act of violence in the future. Duh. So what's your point? J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 19:41:24 -0400 From: lj lindhurst Subject: Re: let's go ride a bike >ps- the goal of Critical Mass is not to stop traffic, but rather to >highlight the fact that legally, cyclists ARE traffic, and deserve the >same rights (and responsibilities) as car drivers. I think TGQ is referring to New York's TA, which stands for "Transportation Alternatives". Not sure if they're involved in Critical Mass or not. They routinely stage protests where they purposely clog up all the traffic in the few streets that cut through Central Park because they are against traffic being allowed in the park. I pass no judgment one way or the other on this, I'm just passing on the info... "I bring you.... peace!" lj ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:49:46 -0700 From: "Sirloin Stockade" Subject: WanderLust Chapter 2 Los Angeles: Year Zero "Now," began Delbart quizzically, "why is it that you're always putting all those Cheetos in your a-hole?" "Keeps everything niiiice and moist," drawled Eb in an exhalation of pipe smoke. "And besides, you don't expect me to *eat* them, do you? I've always HATED Cheetos." "Yeah, I guess I see what you mean," conceded Delbart. "Anyhoo, i get 'em free with a carwash and waxing." "Oh, so *that's* why you wash your motor-car so frequently." Eb nodded knowingly. "Cool...but, wouldn't it be cheaper to just--" Eb waved him off as the phone rang. "Hullo, Marvin! What ya got for me? ... Yeah. ... Uh-huh. ... Well, maybe. But he... Oh, right. ... Not if I... I don't... You don't say? Well, FUCK me running! If that doesn't beat... Yes, of course. ... Okay, ciao!" Eb slammed the phone down, and, bending down to remove his mocassins, announced, "We've got to get down to the duplex. NOW!" "The *duplex*," whistled Delbart, turning to address the streaming web-cam. "I would never have expected that. Would you?" "Good god, man!" screamed Eb. "Quit horsing around, and help me take off these pyjamas!" *** ON THE WAY TO THE DUPLEX *** "I've always kind of had a crush on Cathy," admitted Delbart. "Kathy...Ireland?" "No, *Cathy*. From the comic strip." "Oh, shit yeah!" confirmed Eb. "She's hotter than a fucking firecracker in hades. I'd take Lucy van Pelt out behind the woodshed, too." "Well, that's a little...I mean...she's kind of young, don't you think?" "No, not at all. See, the Peanuts strip started in 1950. So, any time after about 1962 or so, Lucy became fair game." "Yeah, I guess I see what you mean," conceded Delbart. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:59:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Stephen Mahoney Subject: Re: let's go ride a bike right- as a ped I have had my fair share of near death exp. with those careless driving folk( cell phone talking suv loving crowd included!) then again I have also crossed when I shouldnt have( but I swear I was led by the treachery of others!) greens and demos: right they forget they arent just in support of a single figure head but ideas which used to be housed in the same party ( before the big big money changed things) On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Viv Lyon wrote: > On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Stephen Mahoney wrote: > > > if only the nader and gore camps could stop bickering and try to work > > together.... > > You mean, if the Green Party and the non-DLC part of the Democratic party > could get together, right? The Naderites and the Gore people are never > going to get together. But if they stop thinking of themselves as > supporters of one person or another and start thinking of themselves as > people with similar goals, maybe then there's a little hope. > > > and as far as unsafe bike riders are concerned, they should know that the > > basic laws of science are against them, so if those certain individuals > > get their kicks zig-zagging between cars and accidentally get obliterated > > into a million bits, well thats physics! > > another of my overused .02 cents! > > Yeah, doing stupid things on a bike is, well, stupid. However, I am an > extremely cautious bike rider and have my life threatened by the willful > caprice or simple negligence of car-drivers all the time. They, of course, > should remember that there other laws besides those of physics, and some > of those laws will come back to bite them should they one day succeed in > running me down. > > Vivien > ps- the goal of Critical Mass is not to stop traffic, but rather to > highlight the fact that legally, cyclists ARE traffic, and deserve the > same rights (and responsibilities) as car drivers. > "THE CATS ARE HUNGRY...RUN FOR YOUR LIVES! Alone, only a harmless pet... One thousand strong, They become a man-eating machine!" - -ad for THE NIGHT OF A THOUSAND CATS, 1972. Stephen Mahoney Multnomah County Library at Rockwood branch clerk stephenm@nethost.multnomah.lib.or.us 503-988-5396 fax 503-988-5178 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 20:23:14 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: let's go ride a bike On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Viv Lyon wrote: > ps- the goal of Critical Mass is not to stop traffic, but rather to > highlight the fact that legally, cyclists ARE traffic, and deserve the > same rights (and responsibilities) as car drivers. oh, come on. you don't actually *believe* that do you? (i mean about the goal of CM, not that cyclists are traffic) i can't discuss the portland critical mass with any great authority, but i *can* (and will) talk about washington dc. events are staged on friday afternoon, shortly after the peak of rush hour (for whatever reason, friday rush hour is consistently worse than other days of the week). meeting points are selected in areas which are almost certain to be congested. now, anyone who knows me will tell you i'm the last person on earth to defend the f.p-k. car-drivers -- but as far as i can determine, this is just plain stupid. drivers -- and damnit, police -- do become more aware of cyclists, sure -- not responsible vehicle operators, but as nuisances that impede their progress and possibly even cause accidents. cyclists take advantage of safety in numbers to get back at motorists in various little ways for the abuses they've doubtless had heaped on them in the past. which, hey, i understand the temptation -- but the motorists receiving the abuse in return are not necessarily those who dished it out to start with. total number of chips on shoulder goes nowhere but up. it seems to me that the folks riding in CM (or whatever our local equivalent calls itself, i'm not sure if it's an "official" CM at this point) have included some of the bike couriers, who i routinely see jeopardizing themselves, automobiles, pedestrians and other cyclists. look, i believe in actually working to achieve goals, like public/non-powered tranportation advocacy goals. so i do things like lobby the metropolitan transit authority to expand bike-on-rail hours and facilities. the transit authority is not controlled by some mega corporation, it's a bunch of skittish people who are terrified that one lawsuit by a patron injured by a bicycle could blow their annual budget. they need to be convinced that cycle commuters are responsible citizens who will take all reasonable safety precautions. and every time some damn critical mass fistfight makes the papers -- even if it's in san francisco, not at home -- it makes that work that much harder. you say that Portland is one of the most bike-friendly cities in the country, and that's great -- i'm happy for you. i hope it stays that way despite your best (or worst, depending on how you look at it) efforts. - -- d. - - oh no, you've just read mail from doug = dmw@radix.net - get yr pathos - - www.shoddyworkmanship.net -- post punk skronk rawk = the new thing - - www.pathetic-caverns.com -- books, flicks, tunes, etc. = reviews - - www.fecklessbeast.com -- angst, guilt, fear, betrayal! = rock music ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 00:49:33 -0000 From: "Spring Cherry" Subject: Ghost Threads, Take 2 or biking thru Digests 142-145 Johnson wrote: >Sometimes I waddle out of my local branch and labor home on my >bicycle >with >more materials than I can handle. ! Gee--what a perfect sentence, praise for libraries and a bike all in one. Which brings up something Ive been meaning to post. I finially have a hybrid bike with gears! And hand brakes! And for $250!!! Now, if I could just figure out how to -use- 21 gears and remember to press down on the back wheel brake first ... Its amazing how much all the hills in my vicinity have shrunk. So thanks to everyone who wrote me with advice, especially Michael Wolfe who sent me a very well-thought out, well-explained buyers guide off-list. Dignana: >'scuse me from putting in a slightly dissing voice here, but the >extent to >which they succeeded is probably measurable by the extent >to which people >on mailing lists discuss them rather than discussing >the fact that >sickfuck kids can take guns to school and shoot up >their classmates. >Discussing the >killers is just adding to their exposure. Ignore them. Refuse to >discuss >them. If you must talk about anything, discuss how society got to the > >state >where it was ever allowed to happen in the first place. Amen. What amazes me is that a kid can have guns and bombs out in his room and the parents dont "notice." How do you not notice that your kid is turning into a homicidal maniac? By being one hell of a problem yourself. How are these kids getting guns? I really think that any adults involved thru either helping them or thru negligence should get the book thrown at them. As it is Im appalled by our gun laws, or lack of them but what really breaks me up is that parents are so out of touch with their kids that they dont have, or want to have, a clue. Brian wrote of Robyn Jagger: >I'm afraid I didn't see anyone videoing. I saw some still photography >in >evidence, but that couldn't hope to do justice to the performance. >Until >they find a way of dumping human memory to some media, you'll just >have to >imagine as hard you can... >Brian, failing to imagine the Bowie dance. Ahhh, for a temporary brain switch;-)(So did he do the Tina Turner pony thing?) Traveling Riverside Blues: >Worst joke of the week: >"Joey Ramone Passes Away A-Hey A-Hey" Many digest to go before I should leap but what the hey... If you think thats the worse you havent yet heard "I Want To Be Cremated" (outch) Ross: >I agree w/ the feeling of wanting to prove he does make sense to >people >who >say he's impenetrable nonsense, but sometimes I also want to take up >arms for impenetrable nonsense. I really admire songs like "The End >of >the World >As We Know It" or "Jewels for Sophia." Strings of disconnected >stuff, >yes,but >those strings can still stir me up. I like surrealism that has a >human >side & lets you in, lets you find emotion (death or sex in >recent >mails),but it's also fun to push the fragmentation, see how >finely you can >chop things up and still recognize the world in them. Very well put. Sometimes he quite consiously uses surrealism, as does Stipe, to very good ends(love EOTWAWKI.) Piling on discordent images can open up your unconsious and a feeling, a sense comes thru which isnt articulatable but nevertheless real. Something past words. It was me who made the comment bout wanting to proove he makes sense, and that only cause I hate the stereotypical blurb about Hitchcock- "This tall, eccentric(I think its obligitory for those two adjatives to be used)English(yup, that one too) purvayer of skewed pop tunes with nonsense lyrics." Its just such a cheap, condescending write-off of decades of really fine work. Grrrr So I oversimplified and overstated my case. Thanks for adding the proper corrective. Ohh, and its nice to see a ref to the horn and ivory gates. Its in Spencer's Fairy Queen as well(talk about a surrealistic work:-) Ross also said: >The main, clear progress I've seen in my >lifetime has been the Civil Rights movement. My >take on M. L. King is that in addition to >staying true to his high moral ground and having >a shitload of courage, he was also an eminently practical man. Exactly. He made a huge difference without sinking to the level of what he fought. So when people say force is the only way to go, MLK is a perfect, recent, Western refutation of that. By the way, has any one ever read Simone Weil's essay on force? I think I need to go and find it again. Its right up this alley but was written around WWII. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 19:46:21 -0500 (CDT) From: GSS Subject: Re: Let me invest in you, GSS. On Wed, 25 Apr 2001, Capuchin wrote: > On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, GSS wrote: > > Good fences make good neighbors but only when the fence is low and the > > gates swing freely in both directions. > > This makes no sense to me. It's not a fence if the gate's always open and > you can hope over it anywhere you like. That was my point. Fences, borders, whatever impedes movement, sucks. > > What NAFTA alone has done for Mexico, especially Northern Mexico in > > regard to the standard of living for many people is unbelievable. > > I've heard this same sentence from both sides. I will use this reply to answer both your and Eddie. I cannot point to anything as reference except my own first experiences in Mexico and the information that my girlfriend and her family have given. I have been traveling to Mexico regulary for over 20 years. I have spent a great deal of time on both sides of the border, from El Paso all the way down to Brownsville and everything in between, along the Rio Grande and throughout the Rio Grande Valley and the improvements to the human condition for the Mexicans on both sides, which is a direct result of NAFTA have been absolutely incredible. > > There are huge subdivisions of middle class homes going in all across > > the Texas/Mexican border. > > Oooh! Subdivisions! Do they have Taco Bell and Wal*Mart, too? That's > progress! No Taco Bells in Mexico at least in the parts of Mexico I have seen. The Wal-Marts that are sitting on the Texas side are filled with Mexicans both shopping and working. Just as the Fred Myers in and around Portland are filled with people just like you. Previously they had shanty subdivisions and now they have solid adobe and acme brick homes. I don't see a problem, just an improvement in conditions for people who deserve it. > Subdivisions are the veal fattening pens of corporate culture. It's where > consumers are born and bred. Subdivisions are a means of disconnecting > people from the world that surrounds them and filling that void with > surrogate world of television and consumables. First it was the urban ant farms that you so much enjoy and now it is suburban ant farms that others enjoy. Coke or Pepsi, who the fuck cares. > > There is a new powerful third class in an area that previously had > > two. > > And how does this class have power? They don't have land and they're not > the food-producing labor. What makes you say they are powerful? They now have sustainable incomes that allow them to get loans for property and for opening small businesses. They have bank accounts and savings accounts and can make investments, short and long term, locally and globally if the wish. They are building schools and community centers and hospitals and post offices. Wow, what a drag for us and them. > > If all we do is allow the current elite, politicians, landowners etc. > > to retain control of these economies, nothing will ever change. > > Huh? Removing all barriers to trade just makes it easier for those with > money and power to take control over new markets. > > > Feed 'em just enough you and they will just stand there waiting to be > > fed again. Feed them well and they will have the extra time and the > > extra energy needed to start feeding themselves. > > Except they don't own the land anymore and it's illegal for them to grow > their indigenous crops. Shit, they didn't own the land or anything else before. You've never been to Mexico, have you? > > Don't misunderstand me, some of the corporations have and will bring a > > great deal of problems, but for instance the initial estimates of > > waste and chemical runoff that was expected to wash right out into the > > Gulf of Mexico from the Rio Grande as a result of the flurry of large > > business developments both Mexican and American, and the huge number > > of small and medium sized businesses opened by Mexicans as a result of > > these big businesses, has not come to be. > > Has the amount of waste and chemical run-off gone DOWN? No. Has it > stayed the same? No. It's just not AS BAD as projected. > > I've used the analogy before, but if you're driving south at 100 Mph, it > doesn't do a bit of good to slow to 60 if you want to be driving north. Well, the person driving sixty won't be as far from the intended destination after an hour as the person driving faster for the same amount of time. > Investment does not add money to an economy. Investment is not "welfare". > Investment is when a company brings in a small amount of money now in > order to draw out a large amount of money later. That is an absolute incorrect generalization and you know it. If you give people jobs where before there were no jobs, the local government would then use the taxes generated from the new incomes to build a waste water disposal system or a school or pave the dirt roads or hire new teachers or dig new wells or clean the streets or organize counseling for abused woman and Leninist Utopian Smoozers or whatever the hell else they decide should be done. The city now needs to hire more employees, the local food market can't keep the shelves stocked because now the people have money to buy thing they could never have before afforded and must now expand. These are the types of things that I have seen happen. Damn, what a terrible thing. > When Wal*Mart comes into a community, they "invest" and create jobs, but > they never spend more than they draw out... that's not profitable. > Only by taking more money out than they put in can a company succeed in a > profit-motivated system. You can't always get more out than you put > in... somebody loses. What the hell are you doing living in a concrete jungle, supporting and being a part of the systems you so despise? Why don't you move into the woods, grow pot and turnips and carrots and beets and use Hot Tuna bootlegs for currency? That's what I'll be doing starting next summer. gSs ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V10 #156 ********************************