From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V10 #152 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Wednesday, April 25 2001 Volume 10 : Number 152 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: John Quaindy [GSS ] argh ["Andrew D. Simchik" ] Re: FTAA [GSS ] Re: Free trade [GSS ] RE: peaceful & violent [] Bottom Line 6/00? ["Mike, also known as a different Mike" ] Re: Worst commute of the week [steve ] RE: violence? we don't need no stinking violence!!! ["Yudt.Matthew" ] Re: wasting my sunny day [steve ] Re: netflix dvds and geekdom. [steve ] Re: Enough. [steve ] Robyn? [Mike Swedene ] Re: Robyn Hitchcock? [steve ] Re: underwatermoonlight.com subscriptions ["brian nupp" ] Re: Worst joke of the week [Capuchin ] Re: underwatermoonlight.com subscriptions [Mike Swedene ] Re: Worst joke of the week (or Eric the clueless) [HAL ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 20:03:56 -0500 (CDT) From: GSS Subject: Re: John Quaindy On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, a taller, thinner, younger TGQ wrote: > >John Candy is the only one who could pull the Quail thing off correctly. > > OK, this is getting strange. When LJ first met me three years ago, > she told me that she thought I would be "heavier." Dont't ask me why but whenever I think of you I see John Candy and then whenever I look in the mirror I either see Cycil Myers or Eugene Levy. Weird isn't it? gSs ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:12:18 -0700 From: "Andrew D. Simchik" Subject: argh >From: "Thomas, Ferris" >Subject: Whack the bees' nest with a stick: > >While we're on touchy subjects: Reparations for Slaves. Is this really necessary? Not that any of you should care, but the following statements are all true: 1. I really enjoy and respect the writing and arguments of the major interlocutors on both sides of this discussion. 2. I like fegs and am glad to be part of this "community." 3. I have a strong interest in the topic of discussion, feel educated by the conversation, and detest rabid topic policing. 4. I'm this close to unsubscribing from the digest and sticking to the announce list for quite some time. I think QUITE enough touchy subjects come up naturally without people having to deliberately and knowingly bring up new ones. Drew - -- Andrew D. Simchik, drew at stormgreen dot com http://www.stormgreen.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 20:14:26 -0500 (CDT) From: GSS Subject: Re: FTAA On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, JH3 wrote: > >How can free trade not benefit everyone? > The cumulative effect resulting in increased immigration and > brain-drain from the third world? I'm just guessin'. What is wrong with immigration? Where do you live? Did you mean "brain-drain of the third world" or did you actually mean what you typed? > >If I have a product or service, > >be it a new designer drug or a new treatment for feline leukemia or > >whatever, how would I not benefit from being allowed to market it to the > >Bolivians or the Peruvians or the Cubans or the Iraqi's? Closed boarders > >in any regard suck. I should be allowed to visit any part of any place > >anywhere in the universe. > > Fine by me, but what are the advantages for those *other than > youself*? Well, some new fun for the ravers and the cats would love me, along with their keepers. Think of all the locals I could employ to help produce and market the new treatment? What is wrong with that? gSs ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 20:37:17 -0500 (CDT) From: GSS Subject: Re: Free trade On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, James Dignan wrote: > >GSS writes: > >>How can free trade not benefit everyone? > > Basically, it'd be survival of the cheapest. Economies with humane laws as > regards pollution, working conditions and labour requirements would suffer > in comparison to economies where there is no legislation regarding these > things. It would sure benefit us as consumers if we could get clothes > cheaply, manufactured in Indonesian and Philippine sweat shops, rather than > having to pay more and buy locally produced clothing. I can only say in regard to the US that today clothes can be purchased from US stores that are manufactured in Indonesia, the Philippines, Somalia and especially China. Often we cannot find the same item manufactured by an American company and have to buy stuff that is produced in China, some in sweat shops which may have little or no regard for the enviroment or the workers. But I'm sure you refuse to purchase an item when you see an R.O.C or Made in China label. gss ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:16:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Subject: RE: peaceful & violent On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Viv Lyon wrote: > On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Thomas, Ferris wrote: > > > Am I going to ditch a programming gig to bag groceries just to save a > > commute? > > If the commute started to bother you enough, you would. Agreed. At first, I agreed with Ferris on this, and then I remembered that one of the big impetusessesesses for me to leave Atlanta, despite having a totally rockin' librarian gig, was the 75-to-90-minutes-each-way that I spent in my car, mostly parked, mostly screaming. More noticeable than the ozone hole I generated was the hole that I was creating in my driver's side door by punching it repeatedly... to say nothing of the hole being enlarged constantly in my psyche. dolph who is still filling his brain with Psyche Bondo (tm) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 10:46:13 -0700 From: "Mike, also known as a different Mike" Subject: Bottom Line 6/00? Anyone know if the Bottom Line 6/00 show on Unidec is the early show or the late show? Thanks, Mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 21:50:39 EDT From: Robcow@aol.com Subject: #9? There have been 8--that's right, 8 digests so far with the date 4/24/01. You know if we all try very hard we can squeeze at least one more out... 8-) Bill Drummond The Man Bill Drummond is a name which is relatively unfamiliar to the press and public, yet he has enjoyed world-wide success with a number of musical endeavors. Not unlike the impressario Malcolm McClaren, Drummond has created a veritable empire which reaches into almost every aspect of the music business. Through his record label, publishing firm, managerial prowess and his own releases, Drummond has emerged as a modern-day musical svengali. His most recent work explains a good deal of both his anonymity and his success. With the advent of rap music and sampling techniques, Drummond released a studio project in 1987 under the name of The Justified Anciests of Mumu. The project caused a great deal of outrage and legal wrangling due to the inclusion of snippets from Margaret Thatcher's speeches, an Abba single and various BBC broadcasts. Sure that he had happened upon a good thing, Drummond released a single called 'Doctorin' the Tardis' in the summer of 1988. Once again he used an alias, this time calling the 'band' The Timelords. The song toned down the sampling a bit, while its monster beats led to gold and platinum status the world over. Still, the name Bill Drummond remained obscured by his numerous monikers. Drummond's musical history actually began in 1977, when he performed with the group Big in Japan. Upon the band's demise, Drummond and David Balfe (another Big in Japan alumni) created a music business enterprise called The Zoo. Acting as producers and label managers, the duo released the debuts of Echo and The Bunnymen and The Teardrop Explodes - both of whom Drummond went on to manage. Balfe and Drummond also started the highly successful Zoo Publishing, which had hits with The Woodentops and Zodiac Mindwarp. After a short stint as an A&R consultant for WEA, Drummond began work on a solo project entitled Bill Drummond - The Man , now available in America on Bar/None Records. The release examines his experiences in the music business and reflects on his own growth over that time. Perhaps his most heart-felt and personal statement to date, it features accompaniment by the Australian band The Triffids and backing vocal work by Voice of the Beehive. Far removed from the scratch and sample beats of his most recent work, The Man includes the infamous track "Julian Cope is Dead." Something of an answer song to Cope's "Bill Drummond Said," Drummond suggests he kill Cope as a way to sell more records and make Cope 'bigger than the Beatles, for sure.' Although his latest work includes a book, a film and a new alias (KLF), Bill Drummond - The Man is the only glimpse which the public has ever been offered into the true heart and mind of the man - Bill Drummond. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - -- Bill Drummond Discography 1989 - Time For A Change (Bar/None Records compilation) 1989 - Bill Drummond - The Man (Bar/None Records) - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - -- KLF For more info on the KLF Email majordomo@xmission.com with "subscribe klf" in message, to find out all the answers to questions such as: Who are the KLF? Why haven't the KLF released a record for ages? Why did they retire? Why are you still discussing a dead group? I saw a gig by/ a flyer for a gig by the KLF. I thought you said they'd retired? Why is songname so awful when songname is so good? What did Drummond/Cauty do before the JAMs? What other online resources are there? How often did they appear live? Was the music live or on tape? How can I contact them? What are their addresses? What's the One World Orchestra? What does "The Magnificent" sound like then? Were 1300 Drums (featuring the Unjustified Ancients of M.U.) really Bill and Jimmy? - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - -- It's a joke you know. No, really... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:24:04 -0700 From: Traveling Riverside Blues Subject: Re: fegmaniax-digest V10 #148, 149, 150 So, uh, anybody out there like Robyn Hitchcock? He's pretty good, huh? Mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:57:37 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Worst joke of the week Hal, having degraded himself to a mere "troll" role on the list by now: >/hal, waiting for another flame from Rupert's boytoy You know, sweetie, this comment swings dangerously close to an unconscionable "You like that queer Rufus, so you must be a FAGGOT!!" sentiment. You might watch your tone more closely in the future, and try not to get too lost in your childish bloodlust for petty revenge and conflict. Eb PS General announcement: Amy Correia sings on the Conan O'Brien show, tomorrow night (late Wednesday). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 21:14:44 -0500 From: steve Subject: Re: Worst commute of the week On Tuesday, April 24, 2001, at 01:16 PM, Tom Clark wrote: > Pearl Jam is McDonald's Grunge. I'd pay big money to see Mark Arm and Kim > Thayall beat the living shit out of Eddie Vedder, all the while yelling > "This is for Kurt!! No, no, no! Eddie is an admitted Split Enz fan, and just did those shows with Neil. This gives him Total Unconditional Triple-Your-Money-Back Absolution for any musical crimes that he may commit - past, present, or future. You'll just have to be satisfied with burning some Pearl Jam CDs - --- or not. - - Steve __________ Is this thing on? Sent via OS X Mail. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:26:12 -0400 From: "Yudt.Matthew" Subject: RE: violence? we don't need no stinking violence!!! > Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 19:27:50 -0500 (CDT) > From: GSS > Subject: violence? we don't need no stinking violence!!! > > On Fri, 20 Apr 2001, Viv Lyon wrote: > > Now, I've seen you post sensible things on this here list > > Could you give us an example? > Sir, YOU started this thread. Don't tell me you are now only STARTING to read the replies. Just for kinda fun, kinda maybe to read too, I cut and paste almost ALL of this thread into a word file. Its 73 pages long. Granted, lots of it is quoted from previous parts, but I'm still guessing about 30 pages isn't. However, my guess is it aint over yet either... > People should be allowed to live work and play, pretty much wherever > the > hell they desire. > I think the argument is that, no they can't, if it is affecting the air, water, soil and quality of my life too. Uses of technologies are moral issues and choices, and when others lives are being affected, without choice or consent, they have a right to be angry. > Good fences make good neighbors but only when the fence > is low and the gates swing freely in both directions. > Pollution doesn't heed to fences or international borders. I think the key word/phrase in your statement is "in both directions". And from what I believe, from what I've read, is that consumption goes one way (USA) and the low paying, dirty, polluting jobs and companies go the other. Not a freely swinging gate, aye? I also don't see how these treaties change that much, but I haven't read them. Perhaps if the environmental and labor protections and standards were ALSO the same across these borders it would be different. As others (Jeme?) stated - free trade is NOT fair trade. I think he is right. > What NAFTA alone has > done for Mexico, especially Northern Mexico in regard to the > standard of > living for many people is unbelievable. > Including my father?, who now works longer hours in a PA steel mill for substantially less pay than he did a half dozen years ago. Companies buy there steel cheaper in Mexico. No EPA. No pensions. More profits. > There are huge subdivisions of > middle class homes going in all across the Texas/Mexican border. > ... millions now who > just 10 years ago lived in wood and sheet-metal shacks with dirt > floors, > no running water with open septic systems, now live in brick homes > with > electric stoves, right across our border. > WOW! I took a ride through Chapel Hill, NC the other day. Those new neighborhoods put those brick houses to shame! To think, these folks lived with only TWO cars and 2500 square feet only a few years ago. And that's right across the border from my home in Durham. > If all we do is allow the current elite, politicians, landowners > etc. to retain > control of these economies, nothing will ever change. > I think most would agree, and those who protested FTAA and WTO etc, will ask you who do you think made these treaties and organizations (answer: the elite, politicians and particularly those that own them). I agree with Jeme and Viv and that group, who argue that all these treaties and organizations are essentially setting the ground rules for their legal expansion to control the world as a giant market, with some areas set aside for consumption, some set for production etc... > I won't waste time try to > explain the importance of a healthy ecosystem as most of us will > agree on > its neccesity, but since the population growth is out of control, we > need > to find a way to reduce this growth in population. > Corporations don't care about this. More population means more consumers. Free trade agreements are about nothing more than the spread of one way of life (our form of regulated capitalism) to another way of life, where these practices are foreign and can be devastating, socially. > There are the easy > things like famine, disease and war that have up until now been a > reasonable cure > Now as a medical researcher, I am slightly confused: disease is a cure for population growth? I see your point, but is it reasonable? > They are underdeveloped only one reason, THE STATE. > Yeah - which one? Texas? CA? of the whole USA? > Had the > individuals of these countries been allowed to trade, develop, > migrate > whatever, like in the US, their country would not be in it's current > condition. > Oh boy. I'm an optimist. I think capitalism can work. I think we are a great country. BUT we have fucked up other places by imposing and forcing our views and our economic system where it wasn't asked for. You arrogance in this statement is repulsive, even to me. By the way - you can't do ANY of those things in THIS country without a passport, a contract, sufficent capital, or a permit of some sort. You are not as free as you think you are. > Ok it ain't perfect, but it was the best I could do in 5 minutes. > You should spend more time on these ideas. Its worth it. I could've gone on, but I need to do something else tonight... Matt - off to change my voter registration/party membership - after writing that, there's know way I'm libertarian... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 21:25:06 -0500 From: steve Subject: Re: peaceful demonstrators & violent idiots On Tuesday, April 24, 2001, at 05:32 PM, Brian Huddell wrote: > It may also be that racists, xenophobes, homophobes, religious > fundamentalists, cannibals, etc... simply will never have the numbers, > or the organization skills, to create an effective popular movement. Leaving aside the cannibals, it's called the Republican Party. - - Steve __________ Never underestimate the power of a Dark Clown! - Darph Bobo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:03:29 -0500 From: steve Subject: Re: wasting my sunny day On Tuesday, April 24, 2001, at 10:55 AM, Natalie Jacobs wrote: > p.s. Speaking of the Wondrous Partridge, last night - three years after > receiving it at the Quail fest - I FINALLY put Steve Schiavo's XTC > sticker on my car. It looks dandy. Thank you again, Steve. Ah, Natalie's back from the wilderness, and just in time for all those Japanese reissues. - - Steve __________ Is this thing on? Sent via OS X Mail. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:08:57 -0500 From: steve Subject: Re: netflix dvds and geekdom. On Tuesday, April 24, 2001, at 01:19 PM, Stephen Mahoney wrote: > the other nice thing about dvd players is that they read more info than > the conventional cd player( 24 bit rather than 16 bit) so that you can > hear more sound, the 20 bit remasters were designed to be heard in this > way! I may be wrong, but I think you should look into this a bit more. Aren't 20 bit remasters still converted to 16 bits for Red Book standard CDs? Besides, everybody knows SACD is the way to go for music. - - Steve __________ Never underestimate the power of a Dark Clown! - Darph Bobo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:18:03 -0500 From: steve Subject: Re: Enough. On Tuesday, April 24, 2001, at 04:52 PM, Ken Ostrander wrote: > oh well...let's give everyone an suv and drill in the artic wilderness > for a > couple of years of juicy profits for the oil companies that have > demonstrated > time and time again their complete disregard for alternatives. hand in > hand > with the auto manufacturers. who's going to change this? The Congress of the United States, by adopting a reasonable CAFE standard, which would include light trucks. This would be a start. This presumes we someday get a reasonable bunch of legislators, and by that time the Supreme Court hasn't declared the federal government unconstitutional. - - Steve __________ Never underestimate the power of a Dark Clown! - Darph Bobo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 20:37:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Swedene Subject: Robyn? anybody ever hear of this guy Robyn Hitchcock? Hey! Where are the reviews from our buddies in the British Isles??? Are the Trade talks too much for you? Herbie Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:43:59 -0500 From: steve Subject: Re: Robyn Hitchcock? On Tuesday, April 24, 2001, at 06:24 PM, Traveling Riverside Blues wrote: > So, uh, anybody out there like Robyn Hitchcock? > > He's pretty good, huh? You bet. I'm especially looking forward to the new Soft Boys album, which is Robyn as Nature intended him to be. - - Steve __________ Is this thing on? Sent via OS X Mail. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 00:32:50 -0400 From: "brian nupp" Subject: Re: underwatermoonlight.com subscriptions >From: "Tracy A. Copeland" <> > As of today, we're enabling the underwatermoonlight.com >subscriptions. The membership page at >http://www.underwatermoonlight.com/members.html >and the membership FAQ at http://www.underwatermoonlight.com/faq.html >should cover most of the information, but since I suspect that a good >many of the people who'll end up subscribing are right here on this >list, here's the deal... >Matthew Seligman >recorded the shows on minidisc and they were ripped to MP3 either by >him >or by Steve the Cat. Has anyone else had a problem with the Mr. Kennedy, Detroit mp3 from UM.com? It downloads, but the song cuts at about 5:07 (right in the guitar solo!) and there is just hiss for a while, then it ends. Nuppy PS would love to hear "Tonight" from Detroit. PSS These songs sound good, but they sound much fuller if you boost the 80Hz, 90Hz, and 125Hz. Matthew's sweet bass comes through much better. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 00:36:54 -0400 From: Ben Subject: Re: Robyn played bassitone? > > >http://www.underwatermoonlight.com/large_images/africa.html > > > > Looks like a Danelectro bass to me... possibly used for Insanely Jealous > > (I reckon the album version has 2 bass)... any ideas? > > They sometimes switched instruments, at least in the Egyptians days (on > listening to the higsons and.... tell me about your drugs, i think?) maybe > this was an early example of that. where was the link to this photo? Its on the UM site, on the first page scroll down to What's New and it says "we've some lovely new photos on the Pictures page." And folks are right its not a baritone but a Danelectro bass. I guess I was fooled by the instrument looking small compared to the giant Robyn. ;-) But in the photo you'll see Matthew is also playing bass, so I guess it's not and instrument switcheroo like Higsons and Drugs. Of course on this current tour Robyn played guitar on UM. PS - a new mystery to ponder in these photos, why are they named "Africa"? Was there a secret, sub-Saharan tour nobody knows about? PPS - did anyone subscribe to the members section? I don't know how successful it will be, I think it would be better if instead of $15 for MP3's, they instead sold something you can hold on to, like a CD. Maybe highlights of the tour that won't be covered by the "Fillmore" (if it comes out), or maybe some more early UM demos and rehersals. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:45:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: Worst joke of the week On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Kettle wrote: >/hal, waiting for another flame from Rupert's boytoy On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Pot wrote: > You might watch your tone more closely in the future, and try not to > get too lost in your childish bloodlust for petty revenge and > conflict. You're both black. J. PS. RE: Amy Correia. Nobody cares but you. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:41:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Swedene Subject: Re: underwatermoonlight.com subscriptions I had the same issue.... This looks like a cool thing. Herbie NP - The Smiths "Meat is Murder" "How Soon Is Now?" - --- brian nupp wrote: > >From: "Tracy A. Copeland" <> > > As of today, we're enabling the > underwatermoonlight.com > >subscriptions. The membership page at > >http://www.underwatermoonlight.com/members.html > >and the membership FAQ at > http://www.underwatermoonlight.com/faq.html > >should cover most of the information, but since I > suspect that a good > >many of the people who'll end up subscribing are > right here on this > >list, here's the deal... > >Matthew Seligman > >recorded the shows on minidisc and they were ripped > to MP3 either by >him > >or by Steve the Cat. > > Has anyone else had a problem with the Mr. Kennedy, > Detroit mp3 from UM.com? > It downloads, but the song cuts at about 5:07 (right > in the guitar solo!) > and there is just hiss for a while, then it ends. > > Nuppy > > PS would love to hear "Tonight" from Detroit. > > PSS These songs sound good, but they sound much > fuller if you boost the > 80Hz, 90Hz, and 125Hz. Matthew's sweet bass comes > through much better. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 01:53:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Terrence Marks Subject: Re: fegmaniax-digest V10 #148, 149, 150 On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Traveling Riverside Blues wrote: > So, uh, anybody out there like Robyn Hitchcock? Hmm...I've heard of him. I would've mentioned his stuff a few weeks back, but I'm trying to shake my reputation as a neo-psychedelic fanboy. I'd give him a B+ if Eb is watching, or an A- otherwise. Terrence Marks Unlike Minerva (a comic strip) http://www.unlikeminerva.com The Nice (an organization for comic strips) http://nice.purrsia.com normal@grove.ufl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 01:57:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Terrence Marks Subject: Re: #9? On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 Robcow@aol.com wrote: > Far removed from the scratch and sample beats of his most recent work, The > Man includes the infamous track "Julian Cope is Dead." No, he's outside looking in. Terrence Marks Unlike Minerva (a comic strip) http://www.unlikeminerva.com The Nice (an organization for comic strips) http://nice.purrsia.com normal@grove.ufl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 00:20:58 -0600 From: HAL Subject: Re: Worst joke of the week (or Eric the clueless) Capuchin wrote about pots 'n' kettles (of fish?): > You're both black. Watch out. He'll be calling you a racist next. /hal (the misogynist, homophobic, Deadhead troll) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:54:35 -0700 From: "Motherfucking Asshole" Subject: Re: Robyn played bassitone? 05/22/80 SB Africa Centre Brainlode Benefit, Covent Garden ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 23:58:59 -0700 From: "Motherfucking Asshole" Subject: Re: Worst joke of the week not sure how inclusive "those days" is. but might include mike watt, bob mould, the minor threat crew. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 01:11:47 -0700 From: "Motherfucking Asshole" Subject: fegs in zen jesus god. i *explicitly* said that i consider myself a pacifist. i *explicitly* said that while i don't consider property destruction "violence", i still don't advocate it because i (like chris g.) don't see that it generally produces any results. if you're referring to my remarks concerning the zapatistas and palestinians. well, the mayans have been living under the boot for five hundred years. they *finally* took up weapons for a *few weeks*, and *finally* got some notice. since the initial ceasefire, it has been only the mexican government (armed by the united states) which has used violence. the palestinians have been living under *military occupation* for over 30 years. while rock throwing may be an hopeless act borne out of complete desperation, it is a form of resistance to military occupation. (completely legal under international law, by the way.) the palestinian situation is particularly tragic as its so-called "leadership" is living high on the hog, complicit in the occupation, and by all accounts the p.a. is every bit as brutal as the direct israeli occupation. if you're referring to my remarks concerning plowshares actions. well, i have to admit i think they're very, very, very, very cool. and if a lot more people were to take them up, they might actually start producing some results. (though even here, i think mass tax resistance would be much more effective.) moreover, a group in britain that disabled a bunch of fighter planes bound to be used against east timor was actually acquitted -- on the grounds it was against british law for britain to be exporting weapons of destruction. in short, i *would* mind being called a terrorist. is this true? it's been my perception that quite a large percentage of israelis are pretty ashamed of the whole thing. certainly it's true that the israeli press is much more critical of israeli policy toward the palestinians than is the u.s. press. in point of fact, it *has* happened since, and is happening as we speak. the problem with remembering it and studying it is that we're taught that it's something *those* people did, once. i visited the holocaust museum while in d.c. last month, and the air of self-righteousness pervading the place was really just astounding. this is an attitude that's popped up (in some form or another) quite a few times today. so i'm not just asking you, terry. but, what is the "present situation", and how did it get here? you find it "more tolerable" that we slaughtered 15 million native americans? that we slaugthered 6 million indochinese? that we're murdering 5,000 iraqi children a month? that the "present situation" is wholly backed up by the united states military -- that our solution to any problem is, "bomb first, don't ask questions later"? somebody overturning a coke truck is less tolerable than living in a country with the largest prison population in world history? i mean, i know some people have said that they don't support violence by the government, or that violence begets violence so it is always to be condemned. but, fuck, it's like we're through the damned looking glass here. if the "present situation" is more tolerable, if mcdonald's and coke are to be happily patronised, if civil disobedience is to be scorned, if wimpy reformism is the only acceptable avenue of change; then a simple "i don't believe the state should be violent, either" rings EXCEEDINGLY hollow. how can participation in a system founded upon and propagated by continual, unceasing waves of violence so gargantuan that it's bordering on pathological to even mention them in the same breath as throwing red paint on somebody's fur coat be considered anything other than tacit approval? you can *say* you don't approve of state violence, but can you demonstrate that anything even remotely resembling the present, tolerable situation would obtain were it not for the millions upon millions of corpses stacked up by state/corporate/church violence? and if not, then how is not violent to taste the fruits of a "present situation" built upon nothing but? i'm afraid you'll have to cite sources for this one. every study i've seen shows (quite convincingly) the opposite. for the record, i advocate the general strike. "We have long understood that words have different meanings for the oppressors and the oppressed." --Ho Chi Minh "America has this problem that it wants to erase its own past. Otherwise, it's a great place." --Robyn Hitchcock ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V10 #152 ********************************