From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V10 #148 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Tuesday, April 24 2001 Volume 10 : Number 148 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: the encyclopedia of everything nasty [Terrence Marks ] RE: peaceful demonstrators & violent idiots [Terrence Marks ] Re: Peter Buck arrested [Tom Clark ] RE: The Commutative Property ["Thomas, Ferris" ] Enough. ["Thomas, Ferris" ] Re: Worst joke of the week ["JH3" ] RE: The Commutative Property [Stephen Mahoney ] RE: peaceful & violent ["Kenneth Johnson" ] MMW [Mike Swedene ] Re: Violence? [The Great Quail ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:41:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Terrence Marks Subject: Re: the encyclopedia of everything nasty On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Aaron L. wrote: > What I find particularly interesting/fascinating about this information, if > it is close to true, is how very much food must be assimilated into our > bodies -- stored as fat, consumed for energy, etc. -- because the > difference between the size of "a car" and that of "six elephants," is of > course, *signfiicant*. When the human body takes energy from food, it does not reduce the food's mass. It's a chemical reaction. Not fusion or matter-antimatter. The law of conservation of mass still holds. (and compared to the total mass of food consumed, the mass of body fat is negligible.) Terrence Marks Unlike Minerva (a comic strip) http://www.unlikeminerva.com The Nice (an organization for comic strips) http://nice.purrsia.com normal@grove.ufl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:13:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Viv Lyon Subject: Re: Violence? I respect you, Quail, but I am close to losing that respect. So some posts today upset you. Instead of responding to people _individually_, you lump Jeme and Eddie and Michael Wolfe and I all into one all-purpose "terrorist" niche. We aren't the same person, we don't all agree that violence is an acceptable means to change society, and as far as FORCING you to do anything, my god! Do you think of us as a little society to Stalins- sitting around, waiting for the chance to outlaw cars and hamburgers? Well, "we" aren't. No one is suggesting that cars be outlawed- just superceded by a more sustainable method of transportation. I'm not going to burn your McDonalds down (don't worry- I'm afraid of fire), but I won't eat there. And I think eating there is a bad idea. And if so inclined, I might talk about how eating there is a bad idea. Am I judging your actions? Yes. Am I forcing you to change your behavior? Hell no. If you don't think high-speed rail is a good idea, why don't you present me with some reasons why? And if your main reason is "It's never gonna happen," then I'd like to remind you that people thought the airplane would never happen. They also thought that velocities higher than 30 mph would kill a person. What you wrote was so insulting, I don't even know what to say. It also speaks poorly of your reading skills (which I assume must be rather better than you showed today). You talk as if any of us expect (or would WANT) these changes to occur overnight. How naive do you think we are? Granted, I am naive enough to think a better world is possible, and I am naive enough to think that I can, in some small part, help to bring it about. But I don't think it's going to happen at 6 am tomorrow morning, or a year from now, or ten years from now. Thus, your "argument" that such changes would cause riots and fires and bombings is just ridiculous. Changes this massive must happen slowly, and with the will of the people. If the will of the people is to eat McDonalds and drive cars, I guess we'll always eat McDonalds and drive cars. I happen to think that the people are smarter than that, in the long term. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'll die very unhappy (just like my hero, HG Wells). Vivien ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:09:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Terrence Marks Subject: RE: peaceful demonstrators & violent idiots On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Capuchin wrote: > While it is true that I don't believe the proponents of corporate > economics should go smashing private property to "make their point", it is > only because it is hypocritical for them to do so. Their basic belief > depends on holding private property in the highest regard and to smash > private property is to smash their own belief system. So....you don't have a problem with, f'rex, the IRA or the Orange Order or the KKK using violence against property to persuade and coerce if they fail to get their way through other means? I hope you'll forgive me if I find the present situation more tolerable. Terrence Marks Unlike Minerva (a comic strip) http://www.unlikeminerva.com The Nice (an organization for comic strips) http://nice.purrsia.com normal@grove.ufl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:25:43 -0500 From: "Mike wells" Subject: In Support of Quail Thx for being one of the lone sensible voices in this thing. Michael "I think this whole Norway / Fist thing is getting a bit overdone" > Violence escalates and gets out of control very quickly -- from the > last Woodstock to Kent State to the LA Riots and so on. If you hate > the system so much you don't feel you can work within it, then by all > means drop out, join a religious commune and attend to your spiritual > world, but if you start claiming you have the "courage" to admit that > the time is ripe for a violent revolution, you just start sounding > like another dangerous fanatic to me. > > --Quail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:34:25 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: Peter Buck arrested on 4/24/01 11:32 AM, Stephen Mahoney at stephenm@multcolib.org wrote: > anyone else have bad flight > experiences in europe? Spain, 1992. The Madrid airport is so overbooked and antiquated that our flight back to the States is not even listed on the flight board. We rush around to find an American Airlines rep but have to instead wait in line with all the people buying tickets and baggage checking their chicken cages. We finally get to the front of the line and some woman tries to stick her head in to ask a simple "pregunta". My wife lights into her in a tirade of Spanish not seen since Franco met Picasso, and the line stares in silence. They inform us that our 767 is boarding, but since there are no free gates we must be driven out onto the tarmac to board. When we land in Dallas the customs agent asks us if we were anywhere else besides Spain. We admit we took the ferry across to Morocco for a day and they immediately call the dogs over to sniff us up and down. Our luggage is searched thoroughly and we are accusingly asked "what is that smell?" We have to convince the inspector that it's my wife's patchouli oil perfume that he's smelling, but he just keeps rifling through our belongings. All in all it was a great trip!! Salud! - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:37:57 -0400 From: "Thomas, Ferris" Subject: RE: The Commutative Property The size of the country has to do with dispersement of population. There's no money to be made to run a bus service around Southbury (where I live) or between Southbury and Farmington (where I work.) Until there's money to be made they're not going to put in public transport. Regarding the rail on government-run public transportation v. private: City (or metro-region) public transport is one thing. I hope y'all aren't promoting the idea of a federal public transportation system. Should I move closer to work? Probably. If it were affordable (or, yes, as nice as where I lived now) I would consider it. As far as the other points: Would my costs go down if I moved/changed jobs? Yes. Would my commute time be shorter if I moved/changed jobs? Yes. Would I have more time on my hands if I moved/changed jobs and used transport? Yes. Would I save money on repairs, maintenance? Yep. Dependance on foreign oil, decreace smog, and promote climate stability? Yes indeed. The problem: For fuck's sake, people--outside of the major cities (Read: Hartford, Bridgeport, New Haven, etc) there's NO PUBLIC TRANSPORT IN THE STATE OF CONNECTICUT. It's not that it's an option I refuse--it's not an option! The office park I work at's not on a bus line. > But how much would you save without a car $40 a week (gas and insurance--no payment--not including repair.) Will I move at some point in the next six months? Probably. May be closer to work, may be out of state. There's two reasons I live where I do now: 1.) My (now ex-) wife and I had to get out of where we had been before 2.) Where we moved to (and I still live) was 1/2 way between both our jobs. While I haven't got the wife any more I still have the drive. - -f. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:45:55 -0400 From: LDudich@ase.org Subject: Bill drummond, looking for Robyn quotes on songwriting > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 17:27:49 -0700 > From: Tom Clark > Subject: Bill Drummond > > While listening to Cope's "Fried" today I was compelled to look up the > name > Bill Drummond ("Bill Drummond Said"). His bio states that he produced and > managed Teardrop Explodes and Echo & The Bunnymen back in the day and then > put out his own album in 1989 called "The Man". I'd be curious to hear > from anybody who's heard this and has an opinion. > > Bill Drummond later attained mega pop-success as "King boy D" with the dance group, the KLF. http://www.detritus.net/archive/klf/ They (literally) wrote the book "how to score a number one record the easy way", and then left the music industry as the # 1 act in terms of record sales in the world in 1991 -after machine gunning a British music awards show with blanks, and dumping a dead sheep in front of it. ------------------------------------------------------------ Bill pissed off Julian Cope, IIRC, by suggesting he kill himself a la Jim Morrison in order to sell more records. -------------------------------------------------------- On another topic, I am teaching a class in June at one of the buddhist centers I'm part of on "spontaneous songwriting", and the idea of being truly 'in the moment' in order to create a work of art. Of course, the master of impromptu songs is Robyn. I would appreciate it if people could email me bits of interviews with the man himself with him talking about his creative process. thanks! -luther Luther W. Dudich Alliance to Save Energy Buildings Team Research Associate 1200 18th St., NW, Suite 900 Washington, DC 20036 202/530-2243 202/331-9588 (fax) ldudich@ase.org www.ase.org Click here to help the Alliance stop global warming. > http://www.environmentsite.org > > "Economic growth cannot go on forever. It is much better to be content with what one has now." - -HH Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama "Now, who started that damn "Millennium message good-luck mantra" email in my name? " - -not HH Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama > > ******************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:49:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Stephen Mahoney Subject: Re: the encyclopedia of everything nasty I just didnt want to come out and be unimaginative and say arse I would rather you people pick one..... ear was good, I also like nostril... how about tear duct? On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Capuchin wrote: > On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Aaron L. wrote: > > At 01:58 PM 4/24/2001, Capuchin wrote: > > >Or it could just mean the waste that comes out your left ear. > > I thought *I* was the only one with this problem. (*Breathing a sigh of > > relief.*) > > Actually, I was referring to YOUR problem with left ear waste. I think I > even said so explicitly. > > I had to sit behind you as you drove with the window down, remember... > J. > -- > _______________________________________________ > > Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin > the average person eats about three pounds of food a day, 1095 pounds per year. by the time you blow out the candles on your 70th birthday cake, you will have eaten 33 tons of food, or a pile about the size of six elephants. Your total waste exiting from a certain orifice will amount to the size of a car! - -"the encyclopedia of everything nasty" Stephen Mahoney Multnomah County Library at Rockwood branch clerk stephenm@nethost.multnomah.lib.or.us 503-988-5396 fax 503-988-5178 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:53:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Stephen Mahoney Subject: Re: Violence? AL gOrE statues????? ...I want OnE....... On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, The Great Quail wrote: > Please do not burn down my favorite MacDonald's or come into my home > and destroy my DVD player, set fire to my big-budget movies, and > smash all my Al Gore statues with hammers. Please do not force me to > work within a bus ride or walking distance from the job I want -- and > I say that not as a New Yorker, but someone who grew up next to a > farm and miles away from the nearest large town. Please do not label > my tenuous rights as a gay man, a pregnant woman, or a simple tax > payer as "selfish" in an attempt to marginalize them for the sake of > some half-assed, self-righteous "higher plan" that has a zero percent > chance of materializing in the midst of a complacent society. Please > do not overturn the Coke truck that passes outside my window and > dance on the burning wreck, and whatever you do, I beg you not to lob > Molotov cocktails at any convention center. Please do not dismantle > my cities and rebuild them around some idea espoused in a utopian > work of fiction. > > See, I just have the weird feeling, you know, that by redefining the > meaning of violence and by urban planning my life for me, well, I > can't help but feel that I may get a bit scared, you know. Of > anarchy, of riots, of conservative crackdowns, of burning libraries, > of overturned police cars in the streets, of harmless men being > dragged out of cars and beaten, of abortion clinics being bombed, of > collectivization and forced relocations, and of the sense that my > property is not my own, but subject the the "nonviolent" whims of the > people who know how to live my life the best. > > You know, what comes around goes around, and if you are prepared to > use violence and terror, be goddamn sure that you really want to live > with the result. And make no bones about it, what some people are > advocating on this list is terrorism. Despite the occasional rants > from ivory-tower, privileged bourgeois hypocrites, we are not living > in a Police State or some kind of Nazi Amerika. You start deciding > that burning down the local MacDonald's is justifiable, I for one > will not stand for it. In fact, the very idea sickens me. > > Violence escalates and gets out of control very quickly -- from the > last Woodstock to Kent State to the LA Riots and so on. If you hate > the system so much you don't feel you can work within it, then by all > means drop out, join a religious commune and attend to your spiritual > world, but if you start claiming you have the "courage" to admit that > the time is ripe for a violent revolution, you just start sounding > like another dangerous fanatic to me. > > --Quail > the average person eats about three pounds of food a day, 1095 pounds per year. by the time you blow out the candles on your 70th birthday cake, you will have eaten 33 tons of food, or a pile about the size of six elephants. Your total waste exiting from a certain orifice will amount to the size of a car! - -"the encyclopedia of everything nasty" Stephen Mahoney Multnomah County Library at Rockwood branch clerk stephenm@nethost.multnomah.lib.or.us 503-988-5396 fax 503-988-5178 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:55:21 -0400 From: "Thomas, Ferris" Subject: Enough. Things I already knew, but have been driven home today: Violence isn't a means to an end. Civil disobedience is one thing. Intentional destruction of property is a crime (and rightly so.) The car culture isn't an ideal one but it's what we have right now. The Quail, acid tongue and all, is the man. ______________________________________ Ferris Scott Thomas programmer McGraw-Hill Education 860.409.2612 ferris_thomas@mcgraw-hill.com (email) Friday or Saturday, what does that mean? Short space of time needs a heavy scene Monday is coming like a jail on wheels -The Clash ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:05:35 -0500 From: "JH3" Subject: Re: Worst joke of the week In one of the relatively less divisive threads of the day: >>you still have not yet defined what constitutes a "Real Old Punk". >someone that was a punk that was old. Or even better some one >that crusty old punk fans would call a punk. You mean like Joe Strummer? He's been appearing on VH1 fairly often recently, seems like. Folks could probably slag him for that. Then again, he never made any money back in the 80's either, so what do you expect? I agree with Jason, Billy Idol was a hair-band sellout of the worst kind, something you can't say of Lydon or MacGowan. Comebacks and reunited-band tours don't bother me much if the artist/band in question never got jack-shit for their efforts the first time around! Not so with Billy-boy! So to call him a "punk" is clearly an insult to the genre, and as to whether it's deserved, well, to each his own... OTOH, Hal did say "punk joke," so maybe he wasn't being so much disrespectful of the genre as of B. Idol himself only. Right, Hal? Hal's a good guy, really. In fact, my dad's name is Hal. Not that this is relevant. John "ain't comin' back 'til they're down to a nub" Hedges ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:06:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Stephen Mahoney Subject: RE: The Commutative Property god that sucks!I stayed in darien and was able to get around okay but then its on the new haven-gransd central train route... and I thought connecticut was progressive for not having state taxes ( am I right on this one?) - -the orifice guy On Tue, 24 Apr 2001, Thomas, Ferris wrote: > The size of the country has to do with dispersement of population. There's > no money to be made to run a bus service around Southbury (where I live) or > between Southbury and Farmington (where I work.) Until there's money to be > made they're not going to put in public transport. > > Regarding the rail on government-run public transportation v. private: City > (or metro-region) public transport is one thing. I hope y'all aren't > promoting the idea of a federal public transportation system. > > Should I move closer to work? Probably. If it were affordable (or, yes, as > nice as where I lived now) I would consider it. > > As far as the other points: > > Would my costs go down if I moved/changed jobs? Yes. Would my commute > time be shorter if I moved/changed jobs? Yes. Would I have more time on my > hands if I moved/changed jobs and used transport? Yes. Would I save money > on repairs, maintenance? Yep. Dependance on foreign oil, decreace smog, > and promote climate stability? Yes indeed. The problem: For fuck's sake, > people--outside of the major cities (Read: Hartford, Bridgeport, New Haven, > etc) there's NO PUBLIC TRANSPORT IN THE STATE OF CONNECTICUT. It's not that > it's an option I refuse--it's not an option! The office park I work at's > not on a bus line. > > > But how much would you save without a car > > $40 a week (gas and insurance--no payment--not including repair.) > > Will I move at some point in the next six months? Probably. May be closer > to work, may be out of state. There's two reasons I live where I do now: > 1.) My (now ex-) wife and I had to get out of where we had been before 2.) > Where we moved to (and I still live) was 1/2 way between both our jobs. > While I haven't got the wife any more I still have the drive. > > -f. > the average person eats about three pounds of food a day, 1095 pounds per year. by the time you blow out the candles on your 70th birthday cake, you will have eaten 33 tons of food, or a pile about the size of six elephants. Your total waste exiting from a certain orifice will amount to the size of a car! - -"the encyclopedia of everything nasty" Stephen Mahoney Multnomah County Library at Rockwood branch clerk stephenm@nethost.multnomah.lib.or.us 503-988-5396 fax 503-988-5178 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:14:34 -0700 From: "Kenneth Johnson" Subject: RE: peaceful & violent >I've seen 'engineered communities.' They're hollow, foul things. Cities >sprout where cities are needed. Cities die where they aren't. A nice >little necklace (or web) of settlements is just a bad idea. "I'm from Ohio >3117." "Really? I'm from 3115!" > >Ech. How are they hollow or foul? Why would they necessarily have to be that way? Have you no imagination? How does this offend? Please back up your grimace and disgust with a reason or two. Does this strike out at singular sense of charm and decorum that we are to expect out of modern American life? I'd like to think our collective consciousness could withstand the taking down a peg you seem to suggest "engineered communities" would bring about. Peoples: With the majority of citizens in this country clinging to their poisonous conveniences and standards of living, we are doomed. People need to wake the fuck up and realize there are sacrifices to be made (a minor ones at that when you consider they are being made to prolong a sustainable biosphere.) This country and its ignorant masses scare the shit out of me. With right thinking politics and a community awareness anything is possible. It doesn't necessarily have to sacrifice identity at all. I believe people can work together for the good of all. It requires a humble spirit and compassionate kindness that is altogether foreign to the modern American monster. The mess we are in stems from the fact that at the base of it all, despite all its achievements in technology, science, and humanities, the human being is nothing more than a dirty creature of habit (a filthy bird at that). We must all cultivate good, healthy habits to be happy and live full, beautiful lives. Those with power and money have, over such a period of time, convinced this prince of apes that it needs the convenience, comfort and standards it so desperately touts now. They don't need these things anymore than a butterfly needs a rocket-pak. In order to build their empires the American moguls (and others around the world too, to be fair) has exploited not only resources and land that was not theirs for the taking but also has conditioned a healthy nation of drones to support this madness, to continue to pad the pouch of the anti-christs. All in the name of progress! It amazes me what people can rationalize. How easy is it to capitulate to the status quo? Thirty years from now when this happy Disneyland existence collapses, we will drown in our convenience. If there is any justice to the world order, if there is a god of mercy and light, the wretch that willfully destroys all that is good and beautiful and conducive to life in the name a personal comfort or luxury will be banished forever more to extinction so that this miraculous earth, with or without civilization, may begin to heal. "What have we achieved in mowing down mountain ranges, harnessing the energy of might rivers, or moving whole populations about like chess pieces, if we ourselves remain the same restless, miserable, frustrates creatures we were before? To call such activity progress is utter delusion." --Henry Miller I try to speak in broad general terms, because I have no wish to attack or condemn a single person. I would like to change some minds, however. I speak of symptoms and possible simple solutions. Reducing the amount of automobile traffic seems paramount to me. (I could write a book, but I will not. Time and work will not permit me, but their are other examples of symptoms and solutions out there. Seek them out and treat or implement respectively as you go.) Being able to live in balance with the earth and trod lightly on it, is a lifestyle change I advocate in all peoples, by any means necessary. ; ) I doesn't hurt, it shouldn't take away from any quality of life we are meant to enjoy. In fact it will only make things better. What goes away is this evil notion of sovereignty and just desserts that the people of this country cling to like rabid weasels. Get over it. And get on with sustainable living. Protest, boycott, throw rocks, whatever makes you feel better, but in the end the only thing you have to do to bring about successful positive change, is to start living that way now. All it takes is a change of mindset or a re-evaluation of your needs and expectations. Time has come to re-invent yourself! peace, Kenneth _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:16:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Swedene Subject: MMW did anyone tape or record the KCRW Morning Eclectic program this morning with MMW? Email me off group. Thanks! Herbie NP - The Simpsons Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 17:28:13 -0700 From: The Great Quail Subject: Re: Violence? >I respect you, Quail, but I am close to losing that respect. >So some posts today upset you. Instead of responding to people >_individually_, you >lump Jeme and Eddie and Michael Wolfe and I all >into one all-purpose >"terrorist" niche. Actually, I had nothing at all against Mr. Wolfe. And I already think that Eddie is as politically crazy as he thinks I am a pawn of Coca-Cola, but not once have we ever really insulted each other on the List, and my respect for him is that of a friend. In fact, I was addressing Jeme, primarily, with a little aside to your postings. >We aren't the same person, we don't all agree that >violence is an acceptable means to change society, and as far as FORCING >you to do anything, my god! Do you think of us as a little society to >Stalins- sitting around, waiting for the chance to outlaw cars and >hamburgers? Well, "we" aren't. No, at worst, I see you more as Lenins, to be honest, filled with "correct" intentions that will be forced on the people for their own good, ignorant of the fact that Stalin is probably already lurking in the shadows of your rhetoric. At best, I see you as well-meaning, daydreaming Utopians that occasionally get in the way of more realistic social progress and change; but I have always been more "selfishly" concerned with issues of human and reproductive rights here and now, instead of global concerns, so that may color my thinking a bit. >I'm not going to burn your McDonalds >down (don't worry- I'm afraid of fire), That sarcasm adds a certain dangerous edge to your statement, and that's just the kind of thing I have been reacting against. How would you feel if a racist on the List wrote, "Don't worry, I'm not going to burn down your Negro Church (I'm afraid of fire)" in a posting with a subject line, "Oh No! They burned down my favorite church!" I believe that violence is violence, and it's application should be carefully weighed. Don't try to shrug away the menacing undertones of some recent postings, be yourself and Jeme. No, I don't think you would actually set fire to a corporation, but then again the intelligentsia never get their hands too dirty -- it makes wringing them in a show of despair more messy. >but I won't eat there. And I think >eating there is a bad idea. And if so inclined, I might talk about how >eating there is a bad idea. Am I judging your actions? Yes. Of course, that's all you (and a few others) ever seem to do, is judge, judge, judge and moralize. It gets wearying to some of us. >If you don't think high-speed rail >is a good idea, why don't you present me with some reasons why? Because it is not practical in rural America, where a car is a necessary fact of today's life. But what about electric cars, and more safe nuclear power? Oh, of course, that's not an option is it? I said the N-word. But where will the electricity for the rail come from? And so on. >And if >your main reason is "It's never gonna happen," then I'd like to remind you >that people thought the airplane would never happen. They also thought >that velocities higher than 30 mph would kill a person. That's totally different reasoning and you know it. Your example states technological states which are subject to scientific progress. Through testing and experimentation, popular disbelief can be conquered in a heartbeat -- a million people could feel the Wright Brothers would fail, but if they succeed, the fact itself has the power to sway them. I have said this before: I feel a lot of your Utopian thinking is predicated on a false belief that there will be a "waking up" of America. I feel that human nature is not going to change so radically - -- just because one person suddenly feels that cars should be abolished, it does not suddenly "prove" a fact. We are dealing with belief, complacency, and territoriality. These things are not going to change in any way but very slowly and naturally. Even raising the consciousness of people is best done when the society is fundamentally stable and complacent. For instance, do you think the recent gains in Gay acceptance would make this much progress if we weren't an affluent, complacent society? After we conquered the Indians, stabilized America, and made our society "safe?" Ah, but of course, these are selfish wishes. I forget that America is the cause of all the world's evil. So back to my point, your above comparison is not logically valid. >What you wrote was so insulting, I don't even know what to say. If I may take a cheap shot: You seem to have a lot of words for someone who doesn't know what to say. > It also >speaks poorly of your reading skills (which I assume must be rather better >than you showed today). So it speaks poorly only of my reading skills, and has nothing to do with the thinking or tone of some of these arguments? >Granted, >I am naive enough to think a better world is possible, But you define "better," and you set the only "correct" methods of realizing your goal. I, too, think a better world is possible, but I approach that from a very different angle. >and I am naive >enough to think that I can, in some small part, help to bring it about. >But I don't think it's going to happen at 6 am tomorrow morning, or a year >from now, or ten years from now. Thus, your "argument" that such changes >would cause riots and fires and bombings is just ridiculous. My argument is hardly that these changes would cause riots -- though they certainly might. My argument was simply that violence begets violence. Some of you don't feel that overturning someone's car and lighting it on fire, and maybe smashing some windows is violence. Bullshit. It's intimidation, and aggressive, and dangerous, and it usually leads to bad things. >Changes this >massive must happen slowly, and with the will of the people. Yes, so I agree. But many of your arguments past and present don't really seem to support this statement...? >If the will >of the people is to eat McDonalds and drive cars, I guess we'll always eat >McDonalds and drive cars. I happen to think that the people are smarter >than that, in the long term. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'll die very >unhappy (just like my hero, HG Wells). That's your prerogative; but my guess is that within a decade you will look back at this period of your life and smile wearily at some of your ideas. Maybe not; who knows? - --Quail np: Bob Dylan, "My Back Pages" PS: Just in case, Viv, you are still confused at where I am coming from.... Below are all excerpts from today's emails, which I see as filled with a level of personal insult, moral self-righteousness, hypocrisy, spite, dangerous innuendo and muddled thinking. In fact, part of the reason it makes me sick is there are some definite changes that need to be made, but a few people on this List think that unless you are getting tear-gas rammed down your throat or have voted the "correct" way, you can't possibly really be anything but a blabbering, idiotic pawn of the evil corporations. >I respect you, Quail, but I am close to losing that respect. >destruction of property is not violence. >so trashing a mcdonald's is really just an indirect >form of a plowshares action. >Subject: Oh no! They burned down my favorite McDonalds! >I'm not going to burn your McDonalds >down (don't worry- I'm afraid of fire) >What you wrote was so insulting, I don't even know what to say. It also >speaks poorly of your reading skills >Yeah, I guess you're not against violence...just violence against >McDonalds. Woo, what a stance. Bravo. >You don't know any anarchists, do you? Beating up their wives... you're >hilarious, you know that? >Well, this country's too big for a lot of things. And frankly, I'm >beginning to think it should be broken up. Secession! >Slowly, with great forethought and planning, by altering existing >cities and encouraging redistribution of population densities >And there are no jobs in western CT? >And you MUST live in CT? >Come on, there's a long chain of selfish decisions that lead up to your >"need" to use your car every day. >And you're too lazy to improve the situation. That's where it all really >comes down. >Try LA. They love your type there. >Chris, get out your head out of your ass. >THAT is why we need to move >to different methods of combat. >An appropriately named Motherfucking Asshole >As long as we quibble over selfish shit like abortion, gay rights, and >taxes, we're going to be manipulated completely on global issues. >While it is true that I don't believe the proponents of corporate >economics should go smashing private property to "make their point", it is >only because it is hypocritical for them to do so. >...and that's why you'll get exactly what's shoved down your throat. >And people have an amazing ability to rationalize, so you'll probably say >it tastes good and you wanted it. >Make no mistake, violence is an act of desparation. I hate to admit that >we live in desperate times, but I have the courage to do so. ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V10 #148 ********************************