From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V9 #332 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Thursday, November 16 2000 Volume 09 : Number 332 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: and is Chris's's Mac collection visible fom space? [Bayard ] Re: Creatures of Light [drop the holupki ] National Discount Brokers ["Crazy Unca' Nick" ] "a total moron" writes ["jbranscombe@compuserve.com" ] Re: love, PJ, etc. ["Irish Airman" ] Re: and is my ass visible fom space? ["J. Brown" ] Re: and is my ass visible fom space? [Capuchin ] Re: u before g ["John Bastin" ] Re: u before g [Eb ] What is it about California? [steve ] Re: u before g ["Andrew D. Simchik" ] More movie stuff [steve ] Re: Americans!! [Carole Reichstein ] Re: Americans!! [Capuchin ] Re: u before g ["Chris Gillis!" ] (Can't resist)Fwd: Serbian peacekeepers deploy in Washington DC [Ethyl Ke] Re: and is my ass visible fom space? [Terrence Marks ] The Point ["Brian Hoare" ] yo blatzman , heres more !(Long boring reposte) [great offwhite dude Subject: Re: and is Chris's's Mac collection visible fom space? On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, chrisg wrote: > It is my understanding that the Great Wall is NOT visible from space with > the naked eye. Remember, huge though the Wall is, most of this > hugeness is length; it's no more than ten or fifteen meters wide, and you > simply can't see a 15 m wide object from 200 km away. so that's one no, one yes. Or was JH3 joking? I have not had time to read his post super carefully. > As for the "rule of thumb," we seem to be talking about two different things > here. Yes, husbands were allowed to beat their wives (by custom if not by > law); but no, this is NOT the origin of the phrase "rule of thumb." So where does it come from, smart boy? Did Cecil know? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:05:02 -0800 From: Asshole Motherfucker Subject: Re: and is my ass visible fom space? >i probably should continue this silliness, but i've always wondered if an >ellipsis functions as a period. that is, should it be i think it's more important to be consistent than "correct". anyhow, i like to use three dots if it's not a complete sentence as written, and four if it is. basically do the same thing with quotes: if the quoted material is a complete sentence, i put the punctuation on the inside; if not, i put it on the outside. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:06:36 -0500 From: Ben Subject: Re: Creatures of Light Whoo the final message of this digest is the only one containing Robyn-speak!!! It's from an issue of Ptolemaic Terrascope. Yes I have it! The pressing is real crackly, but it kind of makes it sound cooler... Creatures Of Light is a cool song, it has psuedo-celtic acoustic guitar and a great melody. As Lemons Chop (Drop? Flop? Plop? I can't remember either...) is the same as the released version. P.S. speaking as someone who has been in outer space several times I can tell you with authority that the Great Wall of China IS viewable from orbit! P.P.S. concerning the "rule of thumb", from my own experience I have found this does NOT hold up in court! But sometimes they just won't listen.... > Right, well I just got done watching an exciting bid war on E-Bay. It was > one of Robyn's. I'm sure some of you are familiar with this one, so maybe > you can tell me what this is and where it came from. It was 7 inch split > with RH on side and Tiny Tim on the other. RH songs: Creatures of light and > As lemons drop (I thought it was chop, but I guess I'm wrong). I don't think > I've heard Creatures of Light. Sounds like an Moss Elixir out take. Any way > the bidding went from 13.50 to 36.00 in about the last half hour. Must be a > rare one. Does anyone have MP3s of this song? I'd love to know the story > behind it. The auction said it had no picture sleeve and it might have come > from a magazine or something. > Curiously > Brian Nupp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:21:36 -0500 From: drop the holupki Subject: Re: Creatures of Light when we last left our heroes, Ben exclaimed: >It's from an issue of Ptolemaic Terrascope. Yes I have it! The pressing >is real crackly, but it kind of makes it sound cooler... Creatures Of >Light is a cool song, it has psuedo-celtic acoustic guitar and a great >melody. yeah, what he said. if there isn't a mp3 of this already and no one else volunteers, i can make one. >As Lemons Chop (Drop? Flop? Plop? I can't remember either...) says "chop" on my copy of the 7". >is the same as the released version. on _mossy liquor_. >P.S. speaking as someone who has been in outer space several times I >can tell you with authority that the Great Wall of China IS viewable >from orbit! you some kind of shuttle pilot? woj ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:08:17 -0800 From: "Crazy Unca' Nick" Subject: National Discount Brokers For those of you who live in the Untied State of Indecision: 1. Call National Discount Brokers at 1-800-888-3999. 2. Listen to the options. Be sure to listen to what #7 says. Every good company should have a #7. _______________________________________________________________________ More Fegfotos coming soon. ...honest! http://www.njaz.com/fegfotos "If two wrongs don't make a right, try three" - Lawrence J. Peter ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:06:23 -0500 From: "jbranscombe@compuserve.com" Subject: "a total moron" writes On Tue, 14 Nov 2000, jbranscombe@compuserve.com wrote: > Christ, I guess that puts me in my place... >No, you put yourself there a long time ago. This just reinforces your >position. >gss And black is white...blah, blah, blah... By the way, just for future reference, it's Guinness with a double 'n'. I don't want you going around making a fool of yourself :-) jmbc. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 18:34:43 -0500 (EST) From: Terrence Marks Subject: Re: and is my ass visible fom space? On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Capuchin wrote: > On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Bayard wrote: > > > > also, is the Great Wall visible from space or not? > > > you kiddin'? they've got satellites that can almost read newspapers from > > > space! > > yes, and someday we'll all get our news this way! but no, mr. pathetic, i > > meant with the naked eye (wise guy). > > No, it is my understand that a naked eye would explode in space and, > hence, be unable to see anything. No, it wouldn't. Pressure is about the difference of the force on the outside and inside. Humans appear to operate best at 1 atmosphere of pressure (which is what you're approximately at). Total vacuum has 0 atmospheres of pressure. 10 meters underwater has 2 atmospheres. We can survive tolerably well at +/- 1 atm. Terrence Marks Unlike Minerva (a comic strip) http://www.unlikeminerva.com HCF (another comic strip) http://www.mpog.com/hcf normal@grove.ufl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 18:37:04 -0500 From: "jbranscombe@compuserve.com" Subject: how dare they...! London's Time Out magazine bills Robyn's Underworld gig thus... Erstwhile Soft Boys mainman Hitchcock has long endeared himself to a large, largely underground, obsessive fanbase, who love him for his sharp humour and impeccable pop melodies. He's also beloved by an impressive number of big-name artists, including REM's Peter Buck, who guested on his latest album JfS (actually aSfB is his latest, you rubbish journalist...did he just say 'obsessive'?). Expect both reverence and revelry at this show. Well, I reckon he's got 'large' wrong, any road up....:-) The bar is completely crap at The Underworld BTW. Very narrow. For any alcoholics attending I recommend buying your pints in twos. It's also bloody hot, what with it being underground and nearer to Hell an' all. Maybe see some of you there, Gary S., Ghost Surfer, Tony (Can't make Oxford. I've got to go and see Macbeth for the ninety-third time...) joe.mbc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:44:29 -0800 (PST) From: "Andrew D. Simchik" Subject: u before g > From: "John Bastin" > When you fill in the form, in the block labeled "Request for > information", > type "e-mail notice Courses". > > Do I place the comma and period inside the quote even though some > dunderhead > might just take it literally and not find the appropriate text field > and, > even if he/she does, might type the period along with the rest? Usability before grammar. Leave the period outside for sure. I think the comma will be safe either way. > From: Jeff Dwarf > oh, PJ? i thought i heard something about nick cave.... not that' i'm > eb. Nick Cave was the last record (_Is This Desire?_). Cave was all over that record and frankly, I think it was a good thing. I wish she hadn't dumped him. _The Boatman's Call_ suffered for it, I think, though some of those songs are incredibly lovely, too. My take was that the sound of the new record was a reaction to the sound of the previous record, a burying of Cave-isms. > From: Eb > Heck, Thom Yorke's the one who sings on the new album...could it be...? > Or > maybe Nick's crony *Mick* Harvey, her prime collaborator on the new > album? > Mick Harvey sounds plausible. But can you imagine: "Bjork Yorke"? > Incidentally, isn't it peculiar that Hynde is *still* such a major, > high-profile name despite releasing very little of note beyond her first > three albums? I mean, it's been 16 years since Learning to Crawl...how > much > slack should we cut her? _Viva El Amor!_ wasn't so bad. But in general, I think you're right. I think everyone's just scared of her. Drew ===== Andrew D. Simchik: drew at stormgreen dot com http://www.stormgreen.com/ Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 18:48:24 EST From: "Irish Airman" Subject: Re: love, PJ, etc. Eb wrote: >Incidentally, isn't it peculiar that Hynde is *still* such a major, high-profile name despite releasing very little of note beyond her first three albums? I mean, it's been 16 years since Learning to Crawl...how much slack should we cut her? Well its been a few, but isnt Last Of the Independents with "Night in my Veins"(oh yeah), "Im a Mother" and her cover of "Forever Young" within the last 5 years? That works for me. She does has a life folks. Then Jeff Dwarf added: >i think it's because great female rock voices*, especially somewhat deeper ones (would she qualify as a true alto?) like Hynde's are so rare that we tend to overcling to the ones we have. Yes, great alto(or close too it, alot of us slide around tween second soprano and alto;-), but its not just the notes--its the phrasing. This woman has incredible phrasing. The actual beauty of the tone is one thing, its something youre pretty much born with the potential for . Phrasing is intelligence. There are voices I love for tone(John Sebastian being one), there are voices I love for phrasing(Robyn being one)and then there are the voices of the divine with tone and phrasing(as in--are you ready--yup--here he is again, John Lennon(oh, and Chrissie Hynde too.)) And as for Quails organic assesment of Robyns work and Simchik's elaboration-- Ill save the cut and paste and just say yeah. (Join us! The Dark Side is strong, young Skywalker... .)is how I would do it. No style manual. Just the makes-sense-to-me rule. By the way I noticed no one picked up on Blazman's --most-- controversial topic: Respect--the great neglected underated Hitchcock albumn. The CD which tore a listserve apert. But love will keep us together. K _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:58:35 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Brown" Subject: Re: and is my ass visible fom space? On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Terrence Marks wrote: > > > yes, and someday we'll all get our news this way! but no, mr. pathetic, i > > > meant with the naked eye (wise guy). > > > > No, it is my understand that a naked eye would explode in space and, > > hence, be unable to see anything. > > No, it wouldn't. > > Pressure is about the difference of the force on the outside and > inside. Humans appear to operate best at 1 atmosphere of pressure (which > is what you're approximately at). Total vacuum has 0 > atmospheres of pressure. 10 meters underwater has 2 atmospheres. We can > survive tolerably well at +/- 1 atm. true but the vacuum would dry your eye out and they'd get all scratchy an blurry! Jason Wilson Brown - University of Washington - Seattle, WA "Everybody needs your meat, But no one meets your needs" -Robyn Hitchcock ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 17:12:18 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: love, PJ, etc. >Well its been a few, but isnt Last Of the Independents with "Night in my >Veins"(oh yeah), "Im a Mother" and her cover of "Forever Young" within the >last 5 years? That works for me. She does has a life folks. Aww, come on. Anyone sounds good, singing "Forever Young." It's a gimme. I remember about 10 or so years ago, Hynde gamely did a cover of 10cc's "I'm Not in Love" for some film soundtrack. That was the point of no return, for me. Either that, or her "I Got You Babe" duet with the UB40 guy. Eek. Eb np: Pru (ehhed album#300 of the year) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 18:48:32 -0800 (PST) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: and is my ass visible fom space? On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Terrence Marks wrote: > Pressure is about the difference of the force on the outside and > inside. Humans appear to operate best at 1 atmosphere of pressure (which > is what you're approximately at). Total vacuum has 0 > atmospheres of pressure. 10 meters underwater has 2 atmospheres. We can > survive tolerably well at +/- 1 atm. Well, I was imagining putting your eye up to, like, a little port hole or something the pressure isn't equalized all 'round. J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 23:32:08 AST From: "John Bastin" Subject: Re: u before g >When you fill in the form, in the block labeled "Request for > > information", > > type "e-mail notice Courses". > > > > Do I place the comma and period inside the quote even though some > > dunderhead > > might just take it literally and not find the appropriate text field > > and, > > even if he/she does, might type the period along with the rest? > >Usability before grammar. Leave the period outside for sure. >I think the comma will be safe either way. Really?? What is "correct," though? Ebbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 19:46:04 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: u before g >Really?? What is "correct," though? Ebbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb? To be honest, I haven't been paying attention to this thread. What was the question? Eb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:59:53 -0600 From: steve Subject: What is it about California? From scifi.com: >B5's Doyle Loses House Bid >Babylon 5 star Jerry Doyle was soundly defeated in his Republican bid to >unseat Democratic incumbent U.S. Rep. Brad Sherman in California's 24th >congressional district, according to news reports. Doyle polled just 30 >percent (63,040) of the district's voters, while Sherman got 67 percent >(142,398), according to CNN.com. >Doyle was running for U.S. Congress in the district that represents parts of >Los Angeles and Ventura counties. He entered the race when the GOP's >previous candidate, former Doobie Brothers guitarist Jeff "Skunk" Baxter, >pulled out of the race. - - Steve _______________ We're all Jesus, Buddha, and the Wizard of Oz! - Andy Partridge ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:05:42 -0800 (PST) From: "Andrew D. Simchik" Subject: Re: u before g - --- John Bastin wrote: > > >Usability before grammar. Leave the period outside for sure. > >I think the comma will be safe either way. > > Really?? What is "correct," though? I think what's "correct" is incorrect and what's incorrect is correct. Then again, I also spell "judgement" with two e's, avoid using quotation marks when referring to letters of the alphabet when I can't figure out how to use them, begin sentences with conjunctions, and doggedly insist on retaining the last comma in a series. > Ebbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb? But you seem to want an answer from our resident grammarian, so I'll go back to publishing music reviews. :) Drew ===== Andrew D. Simchik: drew at stormgreen dot com http://www.stormgreen.com/ Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays! http://calendar.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:15:58 -0600 From: steve Subject: More movie stuff http://www.apple.com/trailers/columbia/final_fantasy/trailer_hi.html - - Steve - ---------- If they know our secrets, why can't we know theirs? - Dana Scully ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:15:41 -0800 (PST) From: Carole Reichstein Subject: Re: Americans!! Lawrence (forwarded by Viv) spoke thusly: > You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary. >look up "aluminium". Check the pronunciation guide. You will be amazed >at just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it. So, how do British people pronounce "Aluminum" anyway?? The American way is "A-LOOM-ah-num." (emphasis on "LOOM") How is the English way different? Carole ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:34:28 -0800 (PST) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: Americans!! On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Carole Reichstein wrote: > So, how do British people pronounce "Aluminum" anyway?? > The American way is "A-LOOM-ah-num." (emphasis on "LOOM") > How is the English way different? The british not only say, but also spell the word "aluminium". a-loo-MIN-e-um J. - -- _______________________________________________ Capuchin capuchin@bitmine.net Jeme A Brelin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:37:56 -0800 From: "Chris Gillis!" Subject: Re: u before g > > Really?? What is "correct," though? > > I think what's "correct" is incorrect and what's incorrect is correct. I think if we all had one of these... http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0226103897/qid=974349364/sr=1-1/104-9831869-9693545 ...on our desks, we'd never have to raise the issue. Kindly, .chris - -- chris@photogenica.net http://photogenica.net - -- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 00:13:24 -0500 From: Ethyl Ketone Subject: (Can't resist)Fwd: Serbian peacekeepers deploy in Washington DC Serbian peacekeepers deploy in Washington DC >BELGRADE--Serbian president Vojislav Kostunica deployed more than >30,000 peacekeeping troops to the U.S. Monday, pledging full support >to the troubled North American nation as it struggles to establish >democracy. >"We must do all we can to support free elections in America and >allow democracy to gain a foothold there," Kostunica said. "The U.S. >is a major player in the Western Hemisphere and its continued >stability is vital to Serbian interests in that region." Special Report Nation Plunges Into Chaos >NBC News Reverses Earlier Report Of Gore's Death Serbia Deploys Peacekeeping Forces To U.S. Bush Executes 253 New Mexico Democrats Communication With Florida Cut Off Clinton Declares Self President For Life Kostunica urged Al Gore, the U.S. opposition-party leader who is refusing to recognize the nation's Nov. 7 election results, to "let the democratic process take its course." "Mr. Gore needs to acknowledge the will of the people and concede that he has lost this election," Kostunica said. "Until America's political figures learn to respect the institutions that have been put in place, the nation will never be a true democracy." >Serbian forces have been stationed throughout the U.S., with an >emphasis on certain trouble zones. Among them are Oregon, Florida, >and eastern Tennessee, where Gore set up headquarters in Bush >territory. An additional 10,000 troops are expected to arrive in the >capital city of Washington, D.C. by Friday. Though Kostunica has >pledged to work with U.S. leaders, he did not rule out the >possibility of economic sanctions if the crisis is not resolved >soon. "For democracy to take root and flourish, it must be planted >in the rich soil of liberty. And the cornerstone of liberty is >elections free of tampering or corruption," Kostunica said. "Should >America prove itself incapable of learning this lesson on its own, >the international community may be forced to take stronger measures." Be Seeing You. - -- "Questions are a burden for others. Answers are a prison for oneself." **************************************************************************** C. J. Galbraith Ketone Press meketone@ix.netcom.com www.bogdescu.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 01:12:53 -0500 (EST) From: Terrence Marks Subject: Re: and is my ass visible fom space? On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Capuchin wrote: > On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Terrence Marks wrote: > > Pressure is about the difference of the force on the outside and > > inside. Humans appear to operate best at 1 atmosphere of pressure (which > > is what you're approximately at). Total vacuum has 0 > > atmospheres of pressure. 10 meters underwater has 2 atmospheres. We can > > survive tolerably well at +/- 1 atm. > > Well, I was imagining putting your eye up to, like, a little port hole or > something the pressure isn't equalized all 'round. Right now, you've got thereabouts of 1 atm of pressure inside you pushing out, counteractng the 1 atm of pressure that the atmosphere is pushing in on you with. Outer space is just 1 atm of pressure more. If the spaceship was pressurized to "eye-popping minus 1", it'd work, but not otherwise. Terrence Marks Unlike Minerva (a comic strip) http://www.unlikeminerva.com HCF (another comic strip) http://www.mpog.com/hcf normal@grove.ufl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 09:26:36 +0000 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: myths n' legends Bayard wrote: > > again i ask with curiosity, what is your source? I always thought that the rule of thumb related to the observation that various dimensions of one's thumb are approximations of one inch. Thus one could measure something, and say "six inches, by rule of thumb". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 04:19:10 -0800 From: "Brian Hoare" Subject: The Point [demime could not interpret encoding binary - treating as plain text] Is anyone else going the Oxford Point on Nov 17? Brian - ------------------------------------------------------------ - --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Before you buy. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 23:54:29 +1030 From: great offwhite dude Subject: yo blatzman , heres more !(Long boring reposte) I see Maestro Blatzman has responded to my diatribe against his :"successful people " statement and I see I pissed him off, well perhaps you now know how Eleanor felt when you blew her out of the water and were rather nasty about her mum having seven kids. . Well Mr B, perhaps I was a tad nasty, but I was not the one to make such trenchant statements against welfare recipients in the first place . You made the comment and perhaps it was wanton trolling, , but you must have thought that it would create a heated response from those of us who believe that government ( and as an extension of that - taxpayers in general ) has a place in helping people in need , for whatever reason they fall into that category. It was you that stated that "successful people" should not have to support those who had problems , I argued that we all need to do so, so that when we run into hard times we have a safety net because we all might need it some time ,as well as its a normal community responsibility in a civilized society . I note that you did not actually manage to mount any sort of argument against THAT particular part of my post. Or perhaps you were too busy calling me a dipstick moron , ouch . I 'm really glad you do give a fuck , I realize now that I misjudged you ., you are a veritable saint and I take back all my nasty comments about you now being a caring person . Since you asked about my contribution to the community, I do some stuff, I am environmentally active , been growing and planting trees for ten years now -probably have grown 30,000- before my back gave out I organized major plantings to regenerate native scrub . Plus I teach , in pretty tough schools. I try to get as many facilities of the kids as possible so they have as good an educational opportunity as those in private schools, I have fund raised thousands of dollars for equipment , given thousands of hours of my own time to various school activities over the last 20 years and I constantly fight the administration and the lousy governments who are all screwing public education in this country. So I'm a fucking saint too....... I don't think so . c'mon, I could make all this up, just like you could ,throwing our social credentials at each other proves nothing . ........... Like wise I'm not a sage -I was being facetious - but in this context it wasn't evident . I thought that might be misconstrued , but I only noticed it after I sent the post, but too late to change it . I'm often silly as well as ascerbic, and I'm ascerbic at the moment because I'm in a mean mood over conservatives in general because they too often try to simplify complex situations into black and white issues. . Your conservative sentiments deserved a serve as far as I was concerned , because you WERE making an absolutist statement about an incredibly diverse set of circumstances, the needs of welfare recipients. You stated. >But it makes me want to puke >even harder when someone makes welfare a lifestyle. I don't like it either , but just because SOME people abuse the system it doesn't mean that we have no system of support at all- and which was the logical consequence of your statement -that successful people should not have to contribute to fixing the problems of others . The percentage of people who prefer to live on social security is pretty small compared to those who would rather work. Also, lets not forget that there are a hell of a lot of working poor, especially in the states where you have such low minimum wages-and they would be even lower if the republicans /right wing democrats and the bosses had their way.In many cases you are better off on welfare than you are working , and that makes me want to puke too. >oooooh, poor little drunk in the gutter! Give him money for another drink > when you pass him on the overpass! Misfortune does happen to people who contribute to the tax system and their past contribution should be used to help them out .See , you missed the point blatz, I was saying that the drunk used to pay taxes when he WASN'T a drunk and was productive. I wouldn't give him money so he could piss it away on booze, but I'd rather he was housed and fed by my taxes to some extent than have him vomit on me whilst I was walking home at night. I could take you to Newcastle in NSW where they axed the steelworks last year and show you two thousand guys who might fall into that category over the next few years. Marriages fall apart under financial strain, people take to drink when there is no hope. In the Newcastle scenario many of those guys worked there for 30 years -went to work there direct from school. They have no employable skills , the town had a huge unemployment problem before they axed the works, its only going to get worse. At present , there are very few jobs for 50 year olds or even thirty year olds with no skills, or even with some skills.. There are lots of places in the UK as well as Australia where this happened, the drug and alcohol problems there now are huge. Meanwhile BHP the erstwhile employer, posts a four billion dollar profit. and guess who pays the social security bill - not BHP .The town has been largely left to shift for itself . Without welfare many of these people would be homeless. Now your argument , if we take it to the extreme , is that all of these guys should now start taking night classes so they can become successful. They CAN better themselves as long as they have the right mental attitude and work hard. Bullshit. Perhaps a small proportion of them could do so over a long period, but your argument ignores circumstances. Depression ( its on the increase and not just in the ranks of the unemployed ) peer pressure ( its there in older people too) lack of education in the first place and all the other pressure you get when you are thrown into stressful situations takes its toll, you need a a lot of willpower to begin a new job path when you are half way through life. You trained when you were young, its the relatively easy time to do it. The adult dropout rate in adult community colleges is around 50 % over here and its mainly due to feelings of inadequacy, lack of basic education skills, lack of money and family responsibilities. I note you have no kids, they do tend to get in the way when one is trying to study and become a brain surgeon .Put yourself into the shoes of these people , try to see their mindset, their experiences, their background and then make your judgements about how many of them can realistically re-educate themselves. >So the guy is depressed, it's up to HIM to pull himself out of the >gutter. You think you're going to do it for him? People have to want to >change, or they won't change. >they would only be 3rd generation unemployed if all assistance were CUT OFF and they >were forced to go to work/school to support themselves. Well they are doing this in Australia in many cases , but the result is often that we have lots of trained people who cant find work , because there are not enough jobs for them to do, or they became working poor who are below the poverty line . I agree that people should have to do something rather than wallow in unemployment , but only if there are realistic chances of their training leading to a job . Cutting off benefits often leads to more problems , the charities in Australia have been complaining that in the midst of an economic boom they are flooded with people who have been cut off govt benefits for various reasons , many of whom have never been on welfare before, but who have spent all their money supporting their families and now are destitute-I say again, do we leave the children of these people to starve, even if its the fault of their parents that they are destitute through feckless behaviour ? It may cost MORE in the long run for us to pick up the pieces in terms of foster care, juvenile courts, mental illness, suicide, drug dependency, etc., etc., then it would to pay the family a few hundred bucks a fortnight . People do have to want to change, but sometimes they need some help to do so. That's my argument .We need a social net which is contributed to by everyone, especially the "successful people " because they can afford to do so and not miss the money. , Also if the guys a drunk, and he has four kids, then what about the kids, is it their fault the dads a drunk, is it the wife's fault? Ok in an ideal world everyone would be intelligent, motivated, able to look after themselves and to haul their arses out of the gutter. But it s not an ideal world, there are lots of people who for various reasons , can't manage to do this. Rather than label them all as leaches , recognize that we all need to band together as a COMMUNITY and support them . We don't do a very good job of this in Australia , but you do a worse job in the states from what I can see - and yet you are supposedly the wealthiest country in the world . However,, when my daughter went over to LA recently she remarked on all the homeless sleeping out in the streets, because she's hardly ever seen it here, its a fairly rare sight - -( apart from Aborigines that is - and we do a fucking awful job dealing with their problems , they need a bloody huge bucket full of affirmative action as they are discriminated against hellishly ) - although under this conservative govt , its an increasing problem Lets face it the trickle down effect doesn't work and the poor are getting poorer whilst the rich get richer. The rich are getting greedier - and many don't want to spend any money on supporting the less fortunate, so they blame the poor for their own misfortune and say that if only they worked hard they could all be billionaires and doctors. This then makes them feel better about their obscene degree of wealth and their general tax avoidance. I don't say that people shouldn't try to help themselves, but until the basic system becomes fairer to those at the bottom , so its easier to rise up through the system -and until those at the top pay their fair share of taxes to enable this to happen , we won't see any improvement in equality in any of our societies in the near future . Commander ( still pissed off at conservatives in general and proud of it ) Lang ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V9 #332 *******************************