From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V9 #279 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Tuesday, October 10 2000 Volume 09 : Number 279 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: BBC News | SCI/TECH | Giant trilobite discovered ["Stewart C. Russell] RE: Happy Birthday ["Thomas, Ferris" ] RE: from 32% to .2%? quite a statistic ["Thomas, Ferris" ] Re: prison [Stephen Buckalew ] Re: Lennon: What is to be done? [Stephen Buckalew ] RE: Happy Birthday [Michael R Godwin ] Re: Liberty and Libertarians [Vivien Lyon ] Re: Liberty and Libertarians [Stephen Buckalew ] Re: Ich bin Uberweenie! (g/i edition) [Christopher Gross ] important note [hbrandt ] eb all over the world ["Polyandry Now" ] Re: The Dead (Easy, Eb! A different kind of Dead.) [Stephen Buckalew Subject: Re: BBC News | SCI/TECH | Giant trilobite discovered Michael R Godwin wrote: > > Well, I'm more worried about this _Longisquama insignis_ business! yeah, but every baby should have a name, even if it's only Zoot. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:38:42 -0400 From: "Thomas, Ferris" Subject: RE: Happy Birthday All right, all right...It's a slow day here at work and I don't mind research...(WARNING: meandering diatribe) Let me preface this by saying I'm not arguing for this to liberate myself from the possibilities of persecution; that's not the case. I just have a few Libertarian leanings (and a confusing amalgam of others I won't bother you with)... Eleanore points out one of the linchpins of the argument: drugs. If you really wanted to decrease the prison population--Hell, if you wanted to gut it--then ease or even better eliminate the drug laws in this country. An estimated 58% of Federal inmates in 1991 and 21% of State inmates were serving a sentence for a drug offense. Legalizing possession alone would take a lot of pressure off the already over-worked courts and free up piles of Federal money. Should the government want to go even a step further and legalize the growth and manufacture of drugs they could monitor it and, yes, tax it as a legitimate sale. The Feds seized over 1.2 million pounds of pot in 1999 alone. Hello...taxable income (somewhere around $369 million raised from a 6% tax--and that's on seizures alone). With such legalization you would have to stiffen laws for driving under the influence and increase penalties for working under the influence (I don't think I would want a crane operator whacked out of his skull on seconol), natch. You're going to more than likely have a few years of heightened problems until the novelty wears off (same with lowering the drinking age, but that'll never happen), but in the long run it would probably be better for the country in general. Frankly I haven't got a problem with removing detriments to society from the streets. With three strikes there's a greater chance of getting a difficult to catch career criminal off the streets. Yes, you do get people in the wrong place at the wrong time once too many times, but they've got to be the minority here. The simple fact that they shouldn't have been there in the first place (*duh*) makes a difference. There's a difference between right and wrong and most people know it. I know I'm supposed to pay taxes in this country. I do. I might fill out a form wrong as an oversight but that doesn't make me a criminal. Intentionally not paying taxes is. Killing is logically wrong and ethically immoral, ergo it's illegal. I don't know anyone who, off the top of their head, doesn't know that killing someone is, at heart, wrong. There are legitimate cases for justifiable homicide but circumstances have to allow it. Let's face it: regrettably, some people who don't belong in society. It's easy to cry about spiraling into a cycle of criminal activity and how hard it is to break free of it and how like a snake that eats its own tail it becomes self-consuming. What I just can't justify is passing an opportunity to remove an unnecessary strain from everyday society. The DOJ estimates that 1 of every 20 persons (5.1%) will serve time in a prison during their lifetime (and they further estimate that if the current trend continues an estimated 28% of black males will enter State or Federal prison during their lifetime--a horrific statistic. If it racial profiling proves to be as prevalent as it seems--and something's done about it--hopefully that number will prove false). Yes, I do think that life in prison isn't a life (and neither, on a different track, is painful terminal illness) but at the same time I don't see why a civilization (loosely using the term) should endure criminals in their midst. It shouldn't be 'part of life.' Should I want to live in a city (I don't happen to at the moment) then it ought to be a relatively safe place. There shouldn't be places you don't go at night and there shouldn't be wretched neighborhoods. Crime should be an exception rather than the rule and, yes, they should be removed whenever possible. I know that the penal system in this country doesn't work particularly well but it doesn't mean we ought to open the doors and let 'em all out. I'm with Russ on this one, frankly. I don't really care where they go. Prison should be that. Prison. It should be a miserable place that you never want to go. Perhaps if it was wretched (and, no, I've never been so much as cuffed so I don't know what it's like) people wouldn't want to go there and they sure as hell wouldn't ever want to go back. (Recidivism factoid: of the 108,580 persons released from prisons in 11 States in 1983, an estimated 62.5% were rearrested for a felony or serious misdemeanor within 3 years, 46.8% were reconvicted, and 41.4% returned to prison or jail. (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm#lifetime). Granted the numbers are a bit old ('83!) but I can't imagine they've gotten much better.) Violent crime in this country bothers the Hell out of me. Should I ever make it to elected office beyond Treasurer of my local Alchy Club (fat chance...I would never pass the character test) one thing I would push for is extreme (read: outrageously harsh) sentences for crimes committed using a gun. Sorry, but that's what I'm thinking. Even if it meant replacing freed drug offenders with weapons violations so be it. It's something that's more than a bit out of hand in this country. Our societal image has spread to our neighbors as well and violent crime's on the rise. England alone has seen a remarkable jump in weapons violations in the past, what, two years? The cops carry guns there now, for Christ's sake. Anyhow I've gotten off track and can't see getting back on. Re-reading this makes it look like I'm skulled writing it; it's more than a little scatter-brained and wanders all over the map. The simple fact is that should you want to drop prison population the lower or eliminate drug offenses. It's an inefficient program trying to push a rope and it's a gross misappropriation of tax dollars. (Example: In 1974 (what a good year!), the US spent $74.9 million dollars on DEA Staffing and Appropriations (from the DEA website) and which, 26 years later spent $1,550 million. That's up, what, 2069%? An 80% increase per year? The Office of National Drug Control Policy places Federal spending on drug control programs as having increased from 1.5 billion in '81 to 18.5 billion (estimated) for the year 2000. Up 1233% or 65% a year. Ugh). And, yes, it would seem that California and Texas (sorry, Marcy) are big names in the prison biz...Texas (163,190), California (163,067), and the Federal system (135,246) together held 1 in every 3 prisoners in the Nation at the end of 1999. - -ferris. np: Bowie at the Beeb, disc 1 (of the limited edition 3 disc set, I might add...) - -----Original Message----- From: Eleanore Adams [mailto:eleanore@tdl.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 12:51 AM To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Subject: Re: Happy Birthday Ok, I have not been following the thread carefully because I have been swamped...But I must concur on your point. I work at the SF Public Defenders office and I have to say that the DA's (and the DAs in SF are famous for being weak on crime) still over charge people in their complaints, and that non-violent crimesw have much heavier sentences than many violent crimes, especially with the new 3 strikes law. A rapist will get 6 years, out in 3, because it is only his first strike, while someone who has multiple felony convictions for rock or H will get real time in state because it is his 3rd. CA prisons are packed with drug addicts. Its a little F*cked up. elenaore Marcy Tanter wrote: > There ARE too many people in prison, but not because the guilty are still > there. It's because many innocent people are convicted or people guilty of > minor crimes are given ridiculous sentences. I am perfectly happy keeping > people who commit first-degree murder in prison for the rest of their lives > (I don't believe in the death penalty). The population of our prisons > would, in fact, be fairly low if sentencing was done properly and the > punishment did fit the crime. Unfortunately, it doesn't happen that way. > A petty thief gets 15 years and a rapist gets 2 yrs of house arrest. Most > murderers who are released from prison commit another felony within 2 yrs > or less of their release. I'm talking about first degree, not crimes of > passion or things like that. > > I live in Texas where people are gun happy and convicts get ridiculous > sentences, esp. if they are black or hispanic. That keeps the prison > population up, nothing else. > > Marcy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:41:09 -0400 From: "Thomas, Ferris" Subject: RE: from 32% to .2%? quite a statistic Eb: >Robbie Williams has said: "I think the best music at the minute is coming out >of America." Steve: Did he name any names? I hardly need to point out that "being on the charts" and "good" don't necessarily go together. Well I think Mr. Williams' integrity has been comprimised. He's probably looking to the likes of N-Stync for inspiration. (Although I'll make a guilty admonition: I bought his new single "Rock DJ" when I was in the UK). - -f. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:43:37 -0600 From: hbrandt Subject: Re: Lennon: What is to be done? TGQ wrote: > Setting a > murderer or rapist free is not compassion; or if it is, it's a blind > and selfish form that does not take into account...any possible > future victims. Just ask Norman Mailer! /hal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:38:00 -0400 From: Stephen Buckalew Subject: Re: prison I'm in the minority in the US on this issue, but I think all drugs, including heroin and cocaine, etc, should be legalized. If people commit crimes to obtain drugs or while under the influence of them, they can then should then be arrested for those crimes...ie, burglary or driving while intoxicated. Considering the current Supreme court review of the Indianapolis case of roadblock drug stops for all citizens, we won't have many liberties soon. And if you are a "good" citizen who doesn't ever use drugs (you know the type: "oh I drink, but I don't use *drugs*") and think...oh, let them lock up all the drug offenders...I don't use those things so it doesn't matter to me, etc....consider this, if drugs are now illegal as a matter of public safety and health costs, soon other behaviors now taken for granted will be regulated. Next stop: Your Diet. After all, it costs so much public money in medicare, etc, to treat people with cancer and heart failure caused by poor dietary choices, therefore, all fatty, fried foods will be illegal. You will eat what the state legislates you are allowed to eat. Why should you be allowed to drain the public coffers to eat what you want. And you'll be healthy and happier because of it. See....it's not sinister or frightening at all! Get rid of drug sentencing and legalize the stuff, and watch the prisons empty....In my past, I knew lots of users, both soft and hardcore. Even the hardcore folks rarely committed crimes to obtain their drugs (the ones I knew who did would shoplift electronics and return them to the store later for refunds)....and none of the soft drug users did. Rant over The libertarian party recently pointed out that neither of the two major candidates mentioned the words "freedom" or "liberty" once during their recent debate. I don't expect either of them to defend my liberty.....or reduce the prison population for that matter. They are both "lock 'em up and throw away the key" types.... Steve B. *************************************************************** "...isn't it good to be lost in the wood..."--Syd Barrett *************************************************************** At 11:22 PM 10/9/00 -0700, you wrote: >At 11:00 PM -0700 10/9/00, Eleanore Adams wrote: >>In our system the way to commit an equal right is through money damages and/or >>time served. For many crimes, wrongs, or torts, this is really the only >>pragmatic way to commit a proportional right. It can be implemented by force >>i.e. attach wages. And since most who are found to commit a wrong >>disagree that >>they have committed a wrong, this "works" (sort of, sometimes.) > >I don't know about pragmatic, but in my little dream world the debt would >be paid to society, perhaps in an unrelated way, and absolutely NOT through >money. I would think that taking money from people would not discourage >them from committing crimes. Labor restitution wouldn't either, but it >wouldn't take anything away from the criminal that prison doesn't. Paying >money is not committing a "right". It can't replace a person, or undo >a rape, or heal an assault. It can replace property -- maybe -- but that's >not all that should be done. That system supports the idea that crime >is a private transgression between two parties, as opposed to a "debt >to society." > >I don't know. It's kind of vague in my mind and probably not very well >thought out. Most fegs seem better informed about government and law >than I am and I'm probably just sounding sophomoric. > >Drew >-- >-- >Andrew D. Simchik, drew at stormgreen.com >http://www.stormgreen.com/ > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:43:09 -0400 From: Stephen Buckalew Subject: Re: Lennon: What is to be done? >It is good to remember our dead. They are still with us, and can >still teach us things. I thought you were a postmodernist?? The teachings of the dead only serve to oppress us here in the "now" (simply paraphrasing one of my profs) ;-) Woke up on the weird side of the be today.... All in fun, S.B. *************************************************************** "...isn't it good to be lost in the wood..."--Syd Barrett *************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:49:49 +0100 (BST) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: RE: Happy Birthday On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, Thomas, Ferris wrote: > Eleanore points out one of the linchpins of the argument: drugs. If you > really wanted to decrease the prison population--Hell, if you wanted to gut > it--then ease or even better eliminate the drug laws in this country. An amusing event occurred at the (opposition) UK Conservative Party Conference this year. The shadow minister came out in favour of a zero tolerance approach to cannabis (£100 minimum fine for possession of even the smallest amount) only for several of her colleagues to admit that they had been cannabis users. The first six or seven all made noises of the "never inhaled ... only tried it once ... I was a student at the time ... it didn't do anything for me" type. However, today, one of them came out and said "Yes I smoked cannabis and I enjoyed it!". Maybe the laws will eventually change ... "Legalise it and I will advertise it" (Peter Tosh) - - Mike Godwin PS OTOH, we are assured that 1/4 - 1/3 of all thefts and burglaries are by people seeking to fund expensive drug habits. Will legalisation make this better or worse? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:21:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Vivien Lyon Subject: Re: Liberty and Libertarians - --- Stephen Buckalew wrote: re: legalizing drugs > I'm in the minority in the US on this issue Actually, I'd be really surprised if you were. I think most Americans think (most) drugs should be legalized, only they're too chicken to do anything about it. It's sort of like abortion rights- over 70% of the people in this country are pro-choice, but we still face serious threats of having accessible abortion taken away. If people would stand up for what they believe, they would get what they want. But instead we have people too frightened of some amorphous reprisal to speak their minds. > The libertarian party recently pointed out that neither of the > two major > candidates mentioned the words "freedom" or "liberty" once > during their > recent debate. I don't expect either of them to defend my > liberty.....or > reduce the prison population for that matter. They are both > "lock 'em up > and throw away the key" types.... Funny- I just went to the Secretary of State debates last night- which included the Pacific Green Party and Libertarian candidates. Man, was that Libertarian a hoot! He and Lloyd (the PGP candidate) made a great case for opening up the presidential debates to third parties. I cannot imagine how dull last night would have been without them, ESPECIALLY the Libertarian. Don't get me wrong, I'm vehemently opposed to most of his positions, but man was it refreshing to see someone up there who openly disagreed with all the other candidates, not just on policy, but on the philosophies behind the policies. Even my man Lloyd seemed a little 'status quo' next to this wing-nut. It was great! Politics *should* be entertaining and stimulating. At any rate, I ran in to the Libertarian guy on the train afterwards. I was very cordial in not pointing out to him that without taxes, he would not have had that wonderful train to ride for free. As far as liberty and freedom, Lloyd had this great quote from Cicero- "Freedom is participation in power." Freedom isn't just being able to do drugs and own guns- freedom is being able to vote for candidates you believe in, being able to run for office without selling yourself to corporations, having access to all the institutions of power that now accrue only to those with the biggest bank accounts. Vivien __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 12:53:40 -0400 From: Stephen Buckalew Subject: Re: Liberty and Libertarians Great quote....couldn't agree more.... Here in Pennsyltucky, we have so many ridiculously powerful (often corrupt) politicians who run unopposed....it's getting kind of weird around here... >As far as liberty and freedom, Lloyd had this great quote from >Cicero- "Freedom is participation in power." Freedom isn't just >being able to do drugs and own guns- freedom is being able to >vote for candidates you believe in, being able to run for office >without selling yourself to corporations, having access to all >the institutions of power that now accrue only to those with the >biggest bank accounts. > >Vivien > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! >http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:37:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: Ich bin Uberweenie! (g/i edition) Oh, why did such a fun thread have to start while I was offline for four days? (I'll bet you did that on purpose, Quail.) But late though I am, I'll forge ahead anyway. > >and perhaps start a mini-thread: band names > >that include punctuation? :wumpscut: B! Machine !AiBoFoRcEn<~ (always written with the leading !, even when the funny capitalization and <~ are ignored) Unit:187 > 1. Have a deliberate misspelling (Phish, The Beatles, Led Zeppelin) Leaetherstrip (with an ae ligature as the third letter) Siouxsie and the Banshees My Life with the Thrill Kill Kult Cleen Xorcist Danse Society > 2. Contain spurious umlauts (Motorhead, Spinal Tap, Amon Duul, Moxy Cruxshadows (over the u) > 4. Are named for sexual references (Kiss, Hole, Come, Cream, 10 CC, Snog Prick Orgy Genitorturers Revolting Cocks Armageddon Dildos > 5. Are named for drug references (Rush, Morphine, Green Day, Lords of Crystal Method Sheep On Drugs Motorhead Soma (after the fictional drug in Brave New World) Ritalin (but they had to change name to Rx before releasing first album) > 6. Are named after places (Chicago, Boston, Kansas, Nazareth, Berlin, Laibach) Birmingham 6 Carfax Abbey Danzig X-Mal Deutschland Future Sound of London > 7. Are named after literary references (The Doors, Love and Rockets, Crimson Joy Alphaville (classic film reference) Voltaire Machines of Loving Grace Pere Ubu Fahrenheit 451 The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets House of Usher Soma (see above) > 8. Are named from other religious texts (Genesis, The Grateful Dead, Nirvana) Fields of the Nephilim Doubting Thomas Lilith Christ Analog > 9. There's always fun with torture devices! (Iron Maiden, Catherine Maybe Leaetherstrip and Genitorturers could go here, too.... > 10. The ever-popular groups named from other groups (Tangerine Dream, > Radiohead) Forma Tadre (named after the album Force Majeure by Tangerine Dream) Cocteau Twins (from a Simple Minds song) Big Electric Cat (after an Adrian Belew song (it CAN'T be a coincidence, can it?)) > 11. Are named for obscure historical figures, fictional or > agricultural (Uriah Heep, Jethro Tull) Rasputina Voltaire (again) Die Krupps yelworC Mussolini Headkick Kevorkian Death Cycle (admittedly, he's still news rather than history) > 12. Special "What the hell?" category (Meatloaf, Archers of Loaf, > Rinaldo and the Loaf) Don't get me started.... - --Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:39:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Terrence Marks Subject: Re: Ich bin Uberweenie! (g/i edition) On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, Christopher Gross wrote: > > >and perhaps start a mini-thread: band names > > >that include punctuation? > > Unit:187 And, my favourite band name, Unit 4+2. Yes, I want this thread to die too, but if I don't mention Unit 4+2, who will? Terrence Marks Unlike Minerva (a comic strip) http://www.unlikeminerva.com HCF (another comic strip) http://www.mpog.com/hcf normal@grove.ufl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:47:39 -0400 From: The Great Quail Subject: The Dead (Easy, Eb! A different kind of Dead.) >>It is good to remember our dead. They are still with us, and can >>still teach us things. > >I thought you were a postmodernist?? Oh boy. I could answer this in like a zillion word essay, but I will spare you by merely remarking that postmodernism does not eschew what the "dead" can teach us; it merely warns against any teachings that seem like "master narratives," and reminds us that their are more voices in the mix than just the dead. In fact, part of the PoMo ethic involves a functional knowledge and understanding of the past, mediated and distorted as it may be. >The teachings of the dead only serve to oppress us here in the "now" > >(simply paraphrasing one of my profs) I've heard that before, and I think its status as an obvious "master narrative" speaks for itself. - --Jean Francios Quaylotard - -- +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+ The Great Quail, K.S.C. (riverrun Discordian Society, Kibroth-hattaavah Branch) For fun with postmodern literature, New York vampires, and Fegmania, visit Sarnath: http://www.rpg.net/quail "The people asked, and he brought quails, and satisfied them with the bread of heaven." --Psalms 105:40 (Also see Exodus 16:13 and Numbers 11:31-34 for more starry wisdom) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:08:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: Ich bin Uberweenie! (g/i edition) On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, dmw wrote: > > Danzig > > bzzt! named after leader glenn danzig, who was using the name before there > was a band. True, the band was named after Glenn Danzig. But since that wasn't the name he was born with, I prezoom he named himself after the city of Danzig (Gdansk), perhaps because it has some signifcance for him or perhaps just because it sounds cool. Therefore the band was indirectly named after the city. I stand by my assertion. > > Alphaville (classic film reference) > > should then include Duran Duran (barbarella) Actually, the Barbarella reference should be enough to put Duran Duran in the drug category. (Type of drug: Sedative.) Dogly, Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 12:10:34 -0600 From: hbrandt Subject: grandmothers whip it out Did I mention that I saw a great (and cheap! $11.25!) show at the Gothic Theatre in Denver last Saturday night with The Grandmothers? I'd bore you with my review, but this website says it all in describing the Seattle show from a few nights earlier... http://www.poplust.com/mothers.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 12:31:51 -0600 From: hbrandt Subject: important note Correction: Should've been "poopchute" (not poopSHOOT) => ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:34:40 PDT From: "Polyandry Now" Subject: eb all over the world it appears that this will be the first time robyn has ever performed a "gig" on christmas day. there's also a difference between what's right (or wrong) and what we're "supposed" to do. i know i'm supposed to pay taxes in this country. i don't. because 50% of your federal tax dollar is spent on the military, i cannot in good conscience pony up. are you saying you're opposed to civil disobedience on principal? actually, it's precisely the opposite. as we know nuclear weapons have been ruled illegal under international law, and as we know international law (theoretically) supersedes national law, and as we know the united states continues to possess and deploy nuclear weapons, and as we know that it could not do so without our tax dollars; intentinally paying taxes is criminal. (mind, i'm not saying this is a more powerful or important argument than voting one's conscience.) there shouldn't be poverty. there shouldn't be racial profiling. there shouldn't be state-sanctioned drug pushers. there shouldn't be rampaging cops. good. then let's remove the *real* hardened criminals. viz., let's put clinton and albright out to pasture for their part in murdering 5,000 iraqi children per month. let's get rid of the tobacco company executives. let's lock up corporate polluters. let's send maquiladora owners down the river. and so on, and so on, and so on. like, say, war crimes committed by the u.s. military? you forgot the most dangerous drug of all: cigarettes. (although, as i understand it, it's not so much the tobacco as all the toxic additives that make cigarettes so dangerous.) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 14:39:54 -0400 From: Stephen Buckalew Subject: Re: The Dead (Easy, Eb! A different kind of Dead.) Quail, You must understand that my tongue was firmly planted in my cheek... I think you should have been teaching that profs class.... I was told many times by this particular prof (and to be truthful, actually believe) that I am not a very intelligent person, so I can't engage in a meaningful dialog with you about this, but I never felt that other schools of literary criticism (including modernism) necessarily endorsed the idea that past stories, or histories, or narratives, were to be viewed as "master narratives" and taken as gospel. In the case of this particular instructor, my point was that reference (such as knowledge of the past) is necessary to give meaning to events (such as our present experiences of life, art, etc), which seemed to be one of the points made in one of the books we studied (The English Patient). However, my bulb is dim, and I'm easily confused and lead astray.... This person claimed to not to wish to read or study anything other than contemporary works, which were the only works that were relevant. I realize that she doesn't speak for all postmodernists. My knowledge of criticism is terrible BTW, I always felt that the various schools of critical thought were much grayer, less defined, than they're various endorsers claimed them to be, and that postmodern ideas were around (undefined as such) long before the term was coined. Everyone and every generation likes to think they've come up with something really new and different. That and I despise *jargon*...lit criticism was very glad to let me go...I think you'ns gots to be smart t'study that there stuff! I realize that you love your field, and I don't mean to denigrate it....in the words of my former prof...I'm just attacking it out of frustration because I'm not intelligent enough to understand it. These days I just play my fiddle, walk through life drinking in whatever I can experience, and let the bulb fade..... Steve *************************************************************** "...isn't it good to be lost in the wood..."--Syd Barrett *************************************************************** At 01:47 PM 10/10/00 -0400, you wrote: >>>It is good to remember our dead. They are still with us, and can >>>still teach us things. >> >>I thought you were a postmodernist?? > >Oh boy. I could answer this in like a zillion word essay, but I will >spare you by merely remarking that postmodernism does not eschew what >the "dead" can teach us; it merely warns against any teachings that >seem like "master narratives," and reminds us that their are more >voices in the mix than just the dead. In fact, part of the PoMo ethic >involves a functional knowledge and understanding of the past, >mediated and distorted as it may be. > >>The teachings of the dead only serve to oppress us here in the "now" >> >>(simply paraphrasing one of my profs) > >I've heard that before, and I think its status as an obvious "master >narrative" speaks for itself. > >--Jean Francios Quaylotard >-- >+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+ > >The Great Quail, K.S.C. >(riverrun Discordian Society, Kibroth-hattaavah Branch) > >For fun with postmodern literature, New York vampires, and Fegmania, >visit Sarnath: http://www.rpg.net/quail > >"The people asked, and he brought quails, and satisfied them with the >bread of heaven." > --Psalms 105:40 (Also see Exodus 16:13 and Numbers 11:31-34 for >more starry wisdom) > > ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V9 #279 *******************************