From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V9 #232 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Thursday, August 17 2000 Volume 09 : Number 232 Today's Subjects: ----------------- One Tolkien over the line? [steve ] Re: The Who at the Hollywood Bowl [Chris Gillis ] still waiting for a Talking Heads reunion [Eb ] Never mind the 15 minutes of fame, where's my action figure? [steve ] Re: eb all over the world ["Stewart C. Russell" ] Re: Hmuhs in the ring! [mrrunion@palmnet.net] helpful factoids about Kosovo [Christopher Gross ] Open question(s) [JH3 ] Re: Open question(s) [Glen Uber ] Temporarily Unsubbing [Tom Clark ] Re: Temporarily Unsubbing [steve ] Re: Open question(s) [Jeff Dwarf ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 22:12:31 -0500 From: steve Subject: One Tolkien over the line? http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/2000/08/16/lord_rings/index.html - - Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 20:20:07 -0700 From: Chris Gillis Subject: Re: The Who at the Hollywood Bowl Eb wrote: > > it was purely the core band: just the three > original members, plus drummer Zak Starkey What is the deal with Kenny Jones not being around. Never got called? Dead? Too rich? Dignity? .chris - -- chris@photogenica.net http://photogenica.net - -- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 20:39:11 -0700 From: Eb Subject: still waiting for a Talking Heads reunion >> it was purely the core band: just the three >> original members, plus drummer Zak Starkey > >What is the deal with Kenny Jones not being around. Never got called? >Dead? Too rich? Dignity? I've read material which indicates Roger Daltrey really *hated* Kenny Jones' drumming, and was a vocal critic of Jones' style throughout his stint with the group. Hence.... Hey, West/ipalindromei, how much were your tickets? I'm still curious about the spread of ticket prices, and since you must've had the cheapest ticket possible.... Eb, who can't believe he saw both Wire and the Who during the year 2000 (and heck, there's a chance I might see *the Bangles* next month...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 22:49:10 -0500 From: steve Subject: Never mind the 15 minutes of fame, where's my action figure? >What's next? Action figures of H.P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu, which >drive you mad if you look at them? Maybe for Verhoeven's remake of "The Dunwich Horror." But I imagine they won't be able to swing an Old Ones Happy Meal if he gets final cut. - - Steve __________ Well, Jesus ain't no astronaut And Buddah, he's no fool Cathedral bells don't ring in hell 'cos cats down there don't think that's cool. - Bill Nelson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 16:36:35 +1200 From: digja611@student.otago.ac.nz Subject: Re: Only the stones remain >>Does anybody know for a fact that Only The Stones Remain didn't >>derive from this Inca story? I also pointed out on one occasion that both this song and Underwater Moonlight could easily have been influenced by the same Camus essay about Oran (or somewhere else in North Africa - I can't remember now, it's quite a while since I read it). I was also recently walking through an old crumbling cemetery and thinking existential thoughts about the ephemeral nature of life, and how everyone will be forgotten in centuries to come. All that will be left is names on gravestones, and they'll eventually weather to the point where only the stone will remain. James (who think this dreaded flu is making him feel more morbid than normal. I have a sneaking suspicion that this is the strain Eb had last year - the one that hung around for weeks...) PS - Chris - don't fret! I haven't forgotten your tape - just trying to work out what to put on the other side of it! James Dignan___________________________________ You talk to me Deptmt of Psychology, Otago University As if from a distance ya zhivu v 50 Norfolk Street And I reply. . . . . . . . . . Dunedin, New Zealand with impressions chosen from another time steam megaphone (03) 455-7807 (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 22:42:42 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Only the stones remain >>James (who think this dreaded flu is making him feel more morbid than >normal. I have a sneaking suspicion that this is the strain Eb had last >year - the one that hung around for weeks...) BEWARE THE BROWN MUCUS! IT HAS COME FOR YOUR CHILDREN! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 11:03:06 +0100 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: eb all over the world David Bowie wrote: > > ... Statue with a Walkman > > yes, as stewart has mentioned. it's stunningly beautiful. Plus it has Robyn's comedy-Dylan impersonation which is very amusing. Well, to me, at least. Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 11:55:21 +0100 From: "Stewart C. Russell" Subject: Re: His name is Robert Paulson GSS wrote: > > Isn't the problem over there more about religious intolerance? It's a bit more complex than that. Just some of the issues: - - the Serbs are urban, the Kosovo-Albanians rural - - the Serbs are mostly Christian (a mix of Orthodox and Roman Catholic, I think), the Kosovo-Albanians nominally Muslim - - many of the sites of historic Serbian battles (about 800 years ago) were in Kosovo. As Serbian nationalism is built on the mythology surrounding these events, it would be easy to claim that Kosovo was Serbian by historic right. - - the Serbs got worried about the proliferation of arms coming into Kosovo from the looted armouries of Albania, after the Berisha government went bankrupt after the chain-letter scam. (Though whether the arms came through because of the Kosovo-Albanians' fears after the Serbian activities in Bosnia is hard to say.) An unstable situation, ripe for exploitation by any populist orator. The sentiment amongst some of the Kosovo-Albanian refugees I have met is pretty much, "Thanks for bombing those pesky Serbs, now we can go back and kick their butts but good". Which is missing the point somewhat, if there ever was a point to the bombing. Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:07:11 +0100 (BST) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Re: His name is Robert Paulson On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, Stewart C. Russell wrote: > It's a bit more complex than that. Just some of the issues: > - the Serbs are mostly Christian (a mix of Orthodox and Roman Catholic, > I think), the Kosovo-Albanians nominally Muslim. On the whole, the Croats are Catholic and the Serbs Orthodox. Greeece and Russia tend to support Serbia because they are all mainly Orthodox. Before the Nato strikes, 90% of the population of Kosovo was Albanian. Yet under Milosevic the K-Albanians had been expelled from all technical jobs (e.g. working in power stations and hospitals) and the best jobs given to Serbs. And when one of our postgrads visited Pristina about 5 years ago, there was a sign at the Grand (i.e. only) Hotel in Pristina reading "We do not serve dogs or Albanians". K-Albanians were no longer allowed to go to college and had to study secretly in 'underground' universities. Before 1989, the Serbs and K-Albanians had got along (albeit uneasily) for 40 years. It was Milosevic's deliberate persecution of the Albanians which really started the trouble. - - Mike Godwin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 06:54:13 -0700 From: mrrunion@palmnet.net Subject: Re: Hmuhs in the ring! A bit late coming in to this, but what the hell... Quail warbled: > You live in a very liberal area. Try spending the > weekend in central PA, where I was told that "Gore > is an asshole," and "Bush will obviously win." I > think the race is going to be very close. > > I hate to say it, but there is a young element in > this country that dislikes Gore and the Democarts, > and associates with the Republicans. They don't even > need to be that religious. Or c'mon down into Jeb's Florida! I honestly can't think of one person that I know who is pro-Gore or willing to admit that they have democrat-ic leanings. Allow me to make a slight racial distinction here: the blacks I know still maintain the Democrat moniker, albeit any statement left of center are spoken generally in hushed tones; all of the whites I know are either Republicans (25%) or Greens (1%)...the other 74% yawn at the mention of politics*. *Degree of Uncertainty +/- 4% It's weird. I'm still literally surrounded by pick-ups bearing those red "Impeach The Clintons" bumper stickers, or "Clinton" with the Soviet hammer & sickle in place of the C. I figure the hatred of liberalism here is so high that these stickers'll still be in place 10 years from now. I think ol' G.W. has this thing locked up...at least in Florida. Mike (Keep Hope Alive...Keep Hope...eh whatever...) Runion - ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 12:50:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: helpful factoids about Kosovo Just to expand on what Stewart and Mike posted.... - -Serbs are, not just mostly, but almost exclusively Orthodox Christians (or agnostics of Orthodox descent). Albanians in general are variously Muslim, Roman Catholic or Orthodox, but those in Kosovo are overwhelmingly Muslim. Muslim Kosovars are practicing, not just nominal, Muslims (unlike the Muslims of Bosnia, who until recently were very relaxed and secular). - -The central event in Serbian history was the Battle of Kosovo Field in 1389, where the Serbs were defeated by the Ottoman Turks. (BTW, are there any other nations that center their national mythology around their biggest defeat?) Before the battle, Kosovo was a fairly important part of the Serbian empire, so it's understandable that they think it's rightfully theirs. On the other hand, contrary to Serb myth, a large number of Albanians already lived in Kosovo by the 1300s, and many fought on the Serbs' side against the Turks. But ever since the Turks conquered Serbia, Serbs have been a bit resentful of Muslims in general, Kosovars not excepted. (In fact the common Serbian word for any Muslim is "Turk.") - -Although Serbs made the Battle of Kosovo Field the centerpiece of their national mythology, few Serbs visited or cared much about the actual battlefield until Milosevic stepped in. The "plight" of the Serbian minority in Kosovo was one of the first issues he exploited in his rise to power. He was also the one who made re-Serbifying Kosovo a national goal. - -I doubt that the flow of arms into Kosovo was much of a motivation for Milosevic in Kosovo. More important was his need for a new nationalist issue to exploit after Serbs lost the war in Croatia and had been fought to a stalemate in Bosnia. The rise of armed resistance in Kosovo probably determined the *timing* of Milosevic's crackdown, but didn't actually *cause* it. - -You might hear the word "Kosova" instead of "Kosovo." It's still the same place. Kosova is the Albanian form, Kosovo the Serbian. - --Chris np: Skinny Puppy, 12" Single Collection ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 10:47:00 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: Hmuhs in the ring! I heard recently that Florida actually has state issued anti-abortion license plates. Is this true? - -tc On 8/16/2000 6:54 AM, mrrunion@palmnet.net wrote: >Or c'mon down into Jeb's Florida! I honestly can't think of >one person that I know who is pro-Gore or willing to admit that >they have democrat-ic leanings. Allow me to make a slight racial >distinction here: the blacks I know still maintain the Democrat >moniker, albeit any statement left of center are spoken generally >in hushed tones; all of the whites I know are either Republicans >(25%) or Greens (1%)...the other 74% yawn at the mention of politics*. > >*Degree of Uncertainty +/- 4% > >It's weird. I'm still literally surrounded by pick-ups bearing >those red "Impeach The Clintons" bumper stickers, or "Clinton" >with the Soviet hammer & sickle in place of the C. I figure >the hatred of liberalism here is so high that these stickers'll >still be in place 10 years from now. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:40:58 -0500 From: JH3 Subject: Open question(s) It's me, JH3! I'm back! Didja miss me? I've been unable to participate around here recently for a wide variety of reasons, for which I apologize. (Among other excuses, I too, had the dreaded brown mucus problem...) First, I desperately need some advice. Has anyone on this list ever been involved in the purchase of a domain name from an opportunistic (but not *necessarily* untrustworthy) domain-name grabber? If so, could you write down a quick sentence or two about how the deal was handled and send it my way (privately, unless you really want everyone else to know)? Please? Thanks...! You folks are the best! BTW: I knew a guy in high school named John Paul Jenks, but that was in Northern Virginia, so I'm assuming it isn't the same guy. I have nothing Robyn-related to add, other than that I managed to convince the wife that we should schedule our UK vacation next year to coincide with the annual Robyn boat trip/bus tour or whatever it's going to be, assuming it happens. I can't wait! (Did anyone who was there this year get any impression as to whether or not he's doing it again next year?) In other threads, Chris Gross writes: >-The central event in Serbian history was the Battle of Kosovo Field in >1389, where the Serbs were defeated by the Ottoman Turks. (BTW, >are there any other nations that center their national mythology around >their biggest defeat?) Texas? >Before the battle, Kosovo was a fairly important >part of the Serbian empire, so it's understandable that they think it's >rightfully theirs. Now this I disagree with. There never *was* a "Serbian empire" - this, too, is part of the mythology. Before the Turks showed up, Serbia was nothing but a series of petty kingdoms and fiefdoms that fought among each other fairly constantly. The defeat in 1389 was no more significant than any number of other battles that took place around the same time, but the 19th-century Serb propagandists (who were struggling to attain Serbia's complete independence from the Ottomans at the time) emphasized it because it was the least embarrassing of their major defeats (at least they managed to kill Sultan Murat I at the end). And it was early enough that the written records of the event were, to say the least, scant. The reason Kosovo is part of Serbia is because Serbia won it from the Ottomans in the Second Balkan War of 1912, and Albania - still technically part of the Ottoman Empire - was on the losing side. But much of the hostility that's been taking place over the last 12 years originally stems from what happened in World War II - the Italians "invaded" Albania and made a deal with the Germans to administer Kosovo along with it, so for the first time the Kosovars were not only free of Serb persecution, but they were also free to visit their relatives in Albania without fear of not being allowed to return to their homes. So they cooperated with the Italians. Of course, after the war they paid the price for that cooperation - they were returned to Yugoslavia. Tito treated them a lot better than they'd been treated before the war, and FWIW they were also better off than they would have been under (Albanian dictator) Enver Hoxha, but the Italians had given them a taste of things like being allowed their own schools and not having their land confiscated in favor of state-subsidized Serbian immigrants, and after that, well, you know how it is with people. As Mike Godwin suggested, nobody in the Balkans has much love for the Albanians; they were the only European vassal state to remain loyal to the Turks to the bitter end. The Turks often used them as mercenaries, and there are few people in southeastern Europe to this day who haven't heard some sort of horror story about 19th- century Albanian raiders blasting their way into some innocent little town and carving up anyone suspected of not being loyal to the Sultan. That's why everyone in the Balkans hates them; it has *very* little to do directly with their religion. It all sounds terrible, and it is; but remember, here in the United States many people are only *now* starting to see Native Americans as actual people, rather than as a bunch of scantily-clad Hollywood movie actors on horseback waving tomahawks and making crazy whooping noises. Propaganda is a very powerful tool, I'll have you know. (Recommended reading: "Kosovo: A Short History" by Noel Malcolm. It isn't *that* short, but it's quite fascinating, if you can get past the unprounceable names.) - - JH3, who only two hours ago finally discovered after three years that his CD player could be operated by remote control! D'oh! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:35:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Glen Uber Subject: Re: Open question(s) On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, JH3 wrote: >>-The central event in Serbian history was the Battle of Kosovo Field in >>1389, where the Serbs were defeated by the Ottoman Turks. (BTW, >>are there any other nations that center their national mythology around >>their biggest defeat?) > >Texas? What about the former Conferderate States of America? Okay, maybe it's not fair to lump everybody who now lives there under the same antebellum banner, but can we at least include the redneck pinheads who insist on flying the "stars-n-bars" to celebrate their heritage? Cheers! - -g- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 16:25:01 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: Temporarily Unsubbing Ladies and Gentlemen of Fegland, Thursday, August 17th is my last day at Apple. I am taking a week off before starting my new gig at a top secret Sillycone Valley startup, so I'll be offlist until then. If you need to reach me for some reason, I can always be found at "tclark_97@yahoo.com". Have fun, but make sure you clean the place up before I get back. Emergency numbers are on the refrigerator. - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 21:12:54 -0500 From: steve Subject: Re: Temporarily Unsubbing Tom Clark: >Thursday, August 17th is my last day at Apple. Not as shocking as Bungie selling out to Microsoft, but it makes this unreconstructed Mac user sad to see Tom leave the Mothership. Still, all power to Tom at his new endeavor. - - Steve __________ "I pledge allegiance to the Mac of Apple Computer Incorporated, and to the developers for which it stands, one platform, under Jobs, indestructible, with creativity and multimedia for all." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 23:24:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: Re: Open question(s) Glen Uber wrote: > JH3 wrote: >>>The central event in Serbian history was the Battle of Kosovo >>>Field in 1389, where the Serbs were defeated by the Ottoman Turks. >>>(BTW, are there any other nations that center their national >>>mythology around their biggest defeat?) >> >>Texas? > > What about the former Conferderate States of America? Okay, maybe > it's not fair to lump everybody who now lives there under the same > antebellum banner, but can we at least include the redneck pinheads > who insist on flying the "stars-n-bars" to celebrate their heritage? at the very least, you have to include the revisionists who claim it was all realy about defending "state rights." ===== "Life is just a series of dogs." -- George Carlin __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V9 #232 *******************************