From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V9 #189 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Wednesday, July 12 2000 Volume 09 : Number 189 Today's Subjects: ----------------- hard rock live guest? [overbury@cn.ca] Re: addendum [Michael R Godwin ] Re: Vegetarianism all over the world [Michael R Godwin ] Re: Hunting (Tree hugging hippie crap content 100%) [Eleanore Adams ] Re: honky-tonk piano all over the world [Glen Uber ] Re: Meat! (No RH content, aside from the song reference in the subjectline) ["Noe Shalev" ] Re: Hunting (Tree hugging hippie crap content 100%) ["sbuckalew" Subject: Re: addendum On Tue, 11 Jul 2000, Glen Uber wrote: > John Vyvyan apparently discusses Hitler's stances on animal rights, > vivisection and vegetarianism in his book "The Dark Face of Science". I > don't know if that's one of the sources of the essay I mentioned, though. What was he up to with all those Tibetans, though? There was a brilliant prog about Nazi anthropology and archaeology on BBC-TV last year, with all these blond Nazis measuring Tibetan skulls, then charging off to Iceland in search of Ultima Thule etc. Not to mention the castle where the SS performed their bizarre quasi-Arthurian ceremonies. Not nice, preciouss, not nice at all ... Mike "occasional lapses into eating fish and wearing leather shoes" Godwin PS: A E I O U - hhrmph! E I U A O - corwumph! U E O A I - bah! "What's up with him?" "Oh, you know, that embarrassing problem - irritable vowel syndrome". ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:26:51 +0100 (BST) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Re: Vegetarianism all over the world Right on, Glen! Keep up the good work. You probably won't convert anyone, but never mind. The only thing I disagree with you about is whether it makes a moral difference if you kill the animals yourself. I really can't respect anyone who is happy to pay other people to kill their brother and sister animals, but wouldn't have the noive to do it themself. But I'm wearing leather shoes, so that includes me ... - - Mike Godwin PS Who plays the piano on the Beatles version of Chuck Berry's "Rock'n'roll music"? It sounds too boogie-woogie for George Martin but I can't think who else it could be. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:36:10 -0700 From: Ry Subject: Rew In A Town Near You! (2nd try) Fegs, Just wanted to let everyone know (if you don't already) that Kimberley Rew is playing the states next week. He is touring with Julian Dawson (who you may remember is one of the guest artists on KR's new CD "Tunnel into Summer") The dates are as follows: July 18th - Nyack, New York "Mostly Music on the Hudson" festival July 23rd - (Wash., DC) Arlington Virginia, Iota July 24th - Baltimore - Fletcher's July 25th - Philadelphia, PA - Bishop's Collar July 26th - Hoboken, NJ - Maxwell's Hope to see everyone there! Walking on Sunshine, Ryan Carey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 07:09:56 -0700 From: Eleanore Adams Subject: Re: Hunting (Tree hugging hippie crap content 100%) Ok, I am neutral....But....Questions......This meat plant, who bought this meat, like, what brand was this? I know it makes no difference, just curious. I do concur with the fact that our gov't took much of he reservation land away from the tribes in the 1930's - 1970's because the land was perfect for water resorvoirs. They would negotiate with a tribe (I remember specifically a case in Minnesota) tell them they would give them new land, relocate them to a barren wasteland with unfertile grounds, and then flood the old reservation lands. The tribe would loose the land and not get a proper percentage of the energy generated from the new dam, ending up a lot worse than before. (And that wasn't that great to begin with) There is this great book called Cadillac Desert, concerning land reclamation for the use of water distribution. There was also a story on NPR this past Sunday about the tribes who live in Alaska, where the ground is too frozen to grow crops, and how the tribes today live 80% off of the land, and only purchase overpriced imported veggies for 20% or less of their diet. The imports from the lower 48 are overpriced and of very low quality, but the old ways are free (except for the lonf days of work) and plentiful (But this is changing with the help of modernization) Just some neutral thoughts.... eleanore "Randy R." wrote: > Glen raises his rifle, and defends..... > > > > > Shit, I'm a freekin' vegetarian!!! I only eat what I catch out of the > water, > > > or get by my own hand. > > > > Then you're not a vegetarian. > > Correct. I'm not. But in the larger sense of the word, I am. There are > those who believe that a vegetable touched by animal feces are strictly off > limits. heh. Every vegetable you eat has somehow been touched by that, > errrr, shit. > > > > > I used to work in a slaughterhouse. You wanna see how our > > > *civilized* society turns a cow into a side of beef in 35 minutes? It > aint' > > > pretty. I also used to work in a chicken factory. That was less > > > traumatizing, but still gross. > > > > You're preaching to the choir here. > > The cattle were herded in to the chutes, and there were 3 crazy guys in > there who prodded them with electric poles. At times, the cattle would kick > one another to death, causing me (I worked in the blood pit) to crawl > through the chute, attatch the chain to it's ankle, and drag it through. > The *leggers* hated that, as dried blood made it more difficult to do their > job. If that didn't happen, the animal was led into the kill shoot, it's > belly was hoisted by a shelf, it's snout was lifted by a grotesque *nose > ring*, and it's throat was slit. > > I worked in a kosher kill plant, so it was Jews who did this. > > So after it stopped mooing and kicking really hard, I had to step in there > and attatch it's back leg to a chain. Once it was done, I pulled the remote > control (covered in blood, of course) and the kicking beast was swung out > into the *blood pit*, where there were many more moving slowly along the > chains, bleeding. > > Is my job done yet? Hell no. I had to reach up into it's neck and slice > one of the main arteries, and let the black blood spill all over my rain > slicker and football helmet. Yes, football helmet. I was kicked quite > often. > > Twice in my 7 months I had failed to chain the beast properly, and it > dropped. Damn thing went after the first thing I saw; me. They had constru > cted a pole in the corner of the blood pit (kind folks, those slaughter > house owners) for myself to duck behind should I ever fuck up. The first > time it happened, the line stopped, and all the workers started banging > their knives against metal, watching to see if I could get away. Who were > they cheering for? hmmmm > > > > > I hail from an Indian Reservation in northern Minnesota, and we hunted > out > > > of fear of going hungry. > > > > I have some respect for that. I don't fault someone who is hungry killing > as > > a matter of survival. After all, humans are the only animals who kill when > > they are not hungry. I have a problem with someone who does it for > "sport". > > Hunting won't be a sport until the animals are given guns. > > > > > Of course it was fun. > > > > So much about your comments about doing it for pleasure. > > Do you admit to the growing of vegetables as *fun*? Anytime you take > pleasure in taking matters into your own hands, it should be fun. > Otherwise, all life is lost. > > > > > Damn, the > > > implications of a day long trek and coming home empty? shit. > > > > If it was so much work, why not just plant a garden? That's work too, but > > had the end of it you'd have SOMETHING to eat, right? > > Yeah, right. Take a look into the lands the US Government gave us. After > the homestead act, they gave us lands that were mostly un-farmable, and the > game were mostly gone. We relied on our wits, and I was taught how to get > something out of nothing. My credo, "if there are 2 fish in that lake, I'll > get one of them" > > > Weren't you just talking about how gross a slaughterhouse and a chicken > > factory were? I'm sorry, but I don't see any difference in gutting your > own > > or having someone else do it. You may be doing it in a cleaner workspace, > > but the process still seems gross to me. > > Processed foods, you mean. It's different if you do it yourself. > > > By cool, do you mean there was a certain amount of pleasure involved? > > Absolutely. I would hope that hunting down an elk would give me more > pleasure than a soccer mom buying hot dogs at the local Safeway. > > > When I was poor, I found that grains, beans, fruits and vegetables went > much > > further than meat. I subsisted rather well on a vegetarian diet when I had > > no money. Now that I do have (some) money, I still subsist rather well on > a > > vegetarian diet. As a matter of fact, I've gained 15 lbs. since switching > to > > a veggie diet, so I don't think it's likely that a person can go hungry > from > > a veggie lifestyle. > > Again, try farming on the majority of Indian Rez's around. hehe, good luck. > You'll find yourself yearning for fresh vegatables for sure. The nearest > veggie stand is off the Rez, and white folks in N. Minnesota don't take > kindly to Injuns swarming about their stores. Just ask the cops awaiting > patiently outside the Rez border. geez. > > > > > You also made it sound as if it was a thrilling, exciting adventure. You > > made it a point in a previous e-mail to specifically describe yourself as > an > > experienced hunter. Now, we may just be splitting *hares* over semantics, > > but, to me at least, a "hunter" is someone who does it for the thrill, not > > for survival. > > Thrill=Survival > > > At least you're taking a higher ground than the Makah Indians who insisted > > on whale hunting in order to preserve their "traditions". As people > change, > > so do traditions. > > You're treading upon shallow waters here. If I were in a worse mood, I'd > really get pissed off for that statement. > > See interleague play and the designated hitter if you > > don't believe me. > > yah, Edgar Martinez gets screwed, and has to play first base. Big whoop. > Fuck it, I'm waiting for football season. > > > > > My Uncle Steve taught me to spear fish, and get beaver tails. He also > > > taught me to jar maple syrup. All can be sold for precious money. Tree > > > hugging? Sorry dude, we jabbed that stick right into that screaming > tree > > > and sucked the life out of it. We needed money. > > > > Sometimes we have to unlearn things. > > Not me. My roots are my steadying rock, and if I need to resort to the food > chain, it would not be for pleasure. I have the skills and know-how to do > it. I survive, and my people survived. Let's try it, Glen. C'mon up to > the Rez and plant a garden. The wolves and wild dogs would tear it up in a > heartbeat. What a fukkin joke. > > > > For example, my dad taught me to be a bigoted, misogynistic, paranoid who > > thought that the Jews ran the banks, all Italians were in the Mafia and no > > one could be a good person unless they were a U.S.-born white Christian > > male. He also had lots of guns and encouraged me to learn to use them. I > > ignored all that and decided I might best be benefit society and myself by > > evolving past that shit. As Bill Hicks once said, "Evolution did not end > > with us growing thumbs. We need to evolve new ideas." I would like to > think > > that we as a species have evolved beyond the need to kill for profit > and/or > > pleasure, but every day I'm reminded that that's not the case. > > > > > fuck you. > > > > That was uncalled for. > > Fuck you again > > > > > Last year, the DNR was offering a 50 dollar bounty on beaver tail. It > seems > > > the beaver were doing beaver things like building dams. I abhored the > > > killing of them, but damn, I was poor. I like beavers. They're cool, > and > > > don't really bother anyone. The DNR thought differently. So Uncle > Steve > > > and brought the boat upriver, and drifted down through the night, > flashing > > > our lights on the banks looking for the tell-tale eyes. 50 bucks? hell > > > yes. Steve's transmission was sticking, and I needed to start getting > gas > > > money together to make it back to Seattle. > > > > You keep proving my point here. Every time you mention hunting or trapping > > or whatever, you seem to justify it by saying you needed money. See my > > comments above about the human race not evolving past the point of killing > > for profit. > > and again...My offer stands, Glen. C'mon up to the Rez. Your tree hugging > ass wouldn't last one day. Of course, I forgot. You could find a job (good > luck, they only hire to relatives), and plant a garden. And the tribal > police would be most kind to you, of course. Fukkin hippie do gooder they'd > say, take you along the lake and beat you senseless. Believe me, I've been > there. I still have a scar. > > > Why don't we agree to disagree? These are some of the same arguments I > have > > with my dad all the time and they never go anywhere. All they do is serve > to > > cause more and more anger leading to each side saying ever more > increasingly > > hurtful things without really resolving anything or enlightening the other > > side. > > > > I don't mean to attack you personally and I wouldn't have said anything at > > all had it not been for the comment about shooting the dog. > > That was a sarcastic comment. Debora and I spent one thousand dollars in 6 > weeks trying to save our pet rats. Yep, my beloved rats. We finally had to > cave in, and let them go. I cried. Yep, Rat Roxy died in my arms and I > cried. > > > > > Don't put me in your killfile just yet! > > No way, dude. This is just getting interesting. > > Vince ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:35:17 -0500 (CDT) From: GSS Subject: Re: Hunting (Tree hugging hippie crap content 100%) On Tue, 11 Jul 2000, Glen Uber wrote: > I have some respect for that. I don't fault someone who is hungry killing as > a matter of survival. After all, humans are the only animals who kill when > they are not hungry. I have a problem with someone who does it for "sport". > Hunting won't be a sport until the animals are given guns. That is so wrong. I don't know if I should even bother replying, but what the hell, nothing to do hear but work anyway. The difference, or so it would appear, is that at this point we know of no animal, except for the human who kills for fun or sport. Lions and other predatory animals seriously injure and kill other members of their pride regulary. I have about 16 cats living around my house and I have seen both males and females attack and kill each other and food had nothing to do with it. I have seen a dog kill another dog and FOOD had nothing to do with the conflict. I 'adopt' injured and stray animals of all sorts and have had to break up fighting chickens, rabbits, dogs, cats, squirrels, raccoons etc... Also, unless seriously injured and only for their own protection, I will never put an animal in a cage or even lock it up behind a fence in a yard. And, I am not a vegetarian, but I do go for days sometimes without meat, though I do regularly consume dairy products. TGQ wrote: > Gregory Stuart Shell Jeezus fucking Christ, its: 'g' fucking 's' fucking 's', REMEMBER!!!! goddamnit you piss me off sometimes.... ;-{} Love gss ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:18:22 +0200 From: "Noe Shalev" Subject: Re: Hunting (Tree hugging hippie crap content 100%) >Your human capacity for reasoning might enable you to allow yourself to die >rather than eat meat, but I don't think that's a certainty. let me start by by saing I'm a meat eater, and think I can justify it moraly in an acceptable manner. yet, there are two things I'm not agree to in your opinion. not all of us completley meat eating animals. our incisors are not realy developed and more important our digest system is not fuuly compatible with those of a predator. that's y we get poisened from eating bad meat. (by the way, I found that most of my friends who don't eat meat Ideologicaly, also don't fancy meat or more often just don't digest it very well) second and more important: our moral lives basicaly based on winning our biology and not acting the way our animal instinct guides us to. we don't rape although we meant to multiply and most of us won't murder even if starving. for someone who thinks it imoral to eat animals he won't hunt even if starving. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:58:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Meat! (No RH content, aside from the song reference in the subject line) On Wed, 12 Jul 2000, Noe Shalev wrote: > let me start by by saing I'm a meat eater, and think I can justify it moraly > in an acceptable manner. yet, there are two things I'm not agree to in your > opinion. not all of us completley meat eating animals. our incisors are not > realy developed and more important our digest system is not fuuly compatible > with those of a predator. that's y we get poisened from eating bad meat. Well, if I remember Intro to Physical Anthropology correctly, humans are *neither* complete meat-eaters or complete plant-eaters; we are omnivores. This is most obvious in human teeth: a true carnivore would have lots of sharp incisors, a true herbivore would have lots of flat grinding teeth, and humans have a little of both. You can probably prove that a well-constructed vegetarian diet is more healthy than eating meat, but no one can prove that humans are strict herbivores by nature. (There are individuals who can't digest meat properly, but that's different -- I'm talking about the species as a whole here.) > second and more important: our moral lives basicaly based on winning our > biology and not acting the way our animal instinct guides us to. we don't > rape although we meant to multiply and most of us won't murder even if > starving. for someone who thinks it imoral to eat animals he won't hunt even > if starving. Not necessarily. Someone might think it's immoral to eat animals, but not immoral *enough* to die rather than eat meat. Just like I think it's immoral to steal, but if I was starving to death and I saw a nice lasagna sitting unguarded on your table, I'd steal that sucker in a second.... But I'm sure there are *some* people who think eating meat is evil enough that they'd die to avoid doing it. BTW, Glen Uber sent me proof, off list, that Hitler really wasn't a true vegetarian. Although he ate much less meat than the average German of his time, he did enjoy some sausage and the occasional slice of ham, and apparently had a fondness for squab and quail. - --Chris, who eats meat in moderation ps: Okay, I made up the part about quail. ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:39:15 -0700 From: Glen Uber Subject: I'd like to thank the academy On 11.07.2000 20:03, nyquilthotep wrote: > serendipitously, glen also wins today's frequent-poster award. ;) Uhh.. I was thrilled just to be nominated It was an honour being included among this group of fabulous posters. I need to give credit to Vince for drawing a good performance out of me. He was a wonderful director. I accept this award on your behalf because it belongs to all of you. Cthulhu bless! - -- Cheers! - -g- "I have two very rare photographs: one is a picture of Houdini locking his keys in his car; the other is a rare photograph of Norman Rockwell beating up a child. '' --Steven Wright +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Glen Uber uberg@sonic.net http://www.sonic.net/~uberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 09:43:25 -0700 From: Glen Uber Subject: Re: honky-tonk piano all over the world On 12.07.2000 06:26, Michael R Godwin wrote: > PS Who plays the piano on the Beatles version of Chuck Berry's > "Rock'n'roll music"? It sounds too boogie-woogie for George Martin but I > can't think who else it could be. I seem to remember that it is John Lennon and George Martin playing the same piano at the same time. I'll check a few reference sources and confirm this. - -- Cheers! - -g- "Half the world's starving and half the world bloats, half the world sits on the other and gloats." - --Robyn Hitchcock +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Glen Uber uberg@sonic.net http://www.sonic.net/~uberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:19:27 +0200 From: "Noe Shalev" Subject: Re: Meat! (No RH content, aside from the song reference in the subjectline) - -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Gross To: Squidmaniax! Date: יום רביעי 12 יולי 2000 18:54 > >Not necessarily. Someone might think it's immoral to eat animals, but not >immoral *enough* to die rather than eat meat. exactly. and they will eat it not bcz of their animal instinct or order but bcz in their moral Living values more than not eating meat. this is exactly what I meant. All the best (and so id music) NOE ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 10:04:45 -0700 From: Glen Uber Subject: Shameless ass-kissing On 11.07.2000 15:00, Mark_Gloster@3com.com wrote: > Glen also likes to listen to the sound of the horrid mistreatment of > large rubber sharks. I don't think he's completely off the hook. Those large rubber sharks are not complete without the delightful complement of _Monday's Lunch_ (available from Tigermonkey Records). It makes for a mighty tasty treat. > -the evil perpetrator of sizeable rubber shark mistreatment And second-best Stickist on the list. - -- Smooch! - -g- "I think the chief problem in the world is that people are breeding like rats on viagra and are too stupid to figure out that WE ARE THE PROBLEM." - --Mark Gloster ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:02:58 -0400 From: "sbuckalew" Subject: Re: Hunting (Tree hugging hippie crap content 100%) Noe, I'm not saying we are exclusively meat eaters...I said we were omnivores, that can eat meat as one potential food (and one we were partly designed to eat, (exclusive herbavores have an extra stomach to convert vegetable matter to protien, we dont have this extra stomach). My point was that sometimes biology actually kicks in over our thinking intentions. And I was only speculating (this being the key word here) that it is difficult for us to *predict* with certainty how we will behave in any given situation. I am always suspect of statements of future intent. Especially when the circumstances surrounding the enactment of the stated intent have not yet been experienced by the person making the statement. S.B. - ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Noe Shalev" Reply-To: "Noe Shalev" Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 18:18:22 +0200 > >>Your human capacity for reasoning might enable you to allow yourself to die >>rather than eat meat, but I don't think that's a certainty. > >let me start by by saing I'm a meat eater, and think I can justify it moraly >in an acceptable manner. yet, there are two things I'm not agree to in your >opinion. not all of us completley meat eating animals. our incisors are not >realy developed and more important our digest system is not fuuly compatible >with those of a predator. that's y we get poisened from eating bad meat. >(by the way, I found that most of my friends who don't eat meat >Ideologicaly, also don't fancy meat or more often just don't digest it very >well) >second and more important: our moral lives basicaly based on winning our >biology and not acting the way our animal instinct guides us to. we don't >rape although we meant to multiply and most of us won't murder even if >starving. for someone who thinks it imoral to eat animals he won't hunt even >if starving. > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:41:35 -0400 From: "sbuckalew" Subject: Re: Hunting (Tree hugging hippie crap content 100%) Actually, one thing I've always been curious about was the position of vegans and vegetarians towards the use of antibiotics. After all, by taking antibiotics to fight infection, we are purposfully killing millions of living organisms. At the same time, we could avoid taking antibiotics and hope that our immune system can do our dirty work for us. That our bodies are engaged in a 24/7 campaign of warfare and killing within our own shells just to survive is an interesting fact. And how low on the chain of "life" do we go to have compassion for other living things? I'm not flaming vegetarians btw, I know and respect many...these are questions I've asked myself before. S.B. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:49:36 -0700 (PDT) From: "Andrew D. Simchik" Subject: Re: Meat! (No RH content, aside from the song reference in the subject line) - --- Christopher Gross wrote: > and humans have a little of both. You can probably prove that a > well-constructed vegetarian diet is more healthy than eating meat, but I'm curious: how much agriculture is necessary to create a well-constructed vegetarian diet? Let's say vegan, actually -- would it be practical to eliminate meat from one's diet if one had access only to plants growing in the wild? Drew, slowly discovering the many joys of the soybean ===== Andrew D. Simchik, schnopia@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:58:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "Andrew D. Simchik" Subject: Re: Hunting (Tree hugging hippie crap content 100%) - --- sbuckalew wrote: > Actually, one thing I've always been curious about was the position of > vegans and vegetarians towards the use of antibiotics. > > After all, by taking antibiotics to fight infection, we are purposfully > killing millions of living organisms. At the same time, we could avoid > taking antibiotics and hope that our immune system can do our dirty work > for us. > > That our bodies are engaged in a 24/7 campaign of warfare and killing > within our own shells just to survive is an interesting fact. And how > low on the chain of "life" do we go to have compassion for other living > things? Cooking vegetables also presumably slaughters any number of microorganisms. It's very important to me that I feed _something_ when I die. Dying by being eaten by some large animal would probably rank among the least pleasant "accidental" deaths available, but philosophically it would make me feel very good. The other option for me is to find some way to become compost, or "worm food" in some way that doesn't involve gradual decomposition in a box. Would I help or hurt the environment by being cremated? All the yummy nutrients in my body would go up in smoke, but I can't see them chopping me up and feeding me to the cats after I die. (My cats are finicky anyway and don't like fish, so they probably wouldn't like human. Then again, I will probably outlive them.) This is starting to seem very Robyn-related again, actually. One of the reasons I feel such warmth toward his music (as opposed to merely appreciating and admiring it) is the squishy biological content of the lyrics (and the sound, if that makes sense). It was lucky that my first two Robyn albums were _Globe of Frogs_ and _Eye_, wasn't it? Drew ===== Andrew D. Simchik, schnopia@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:01:11 -0700 From: ultraconformist Subject: Re: Hunting (Tree hugging hippie crap content 100%) >After all, by taking antibiotics to fight infection, we are purposfully >killing millions of living organisms. At the same time, we could avoid >taking antibiotics and hope that our immune system can do our dirty work >for us. No offense, but this is actually a bit ridiculous, since we also have to kill plants to live, eh? Bacteria et al will get killed (or *gasp!* eaten :)) in that process as well, and some bugs have to die too. There is no way around it. But I still would avoid antibiotics unless we're talking life or death, because I think they're overprescribed and their overprescription is leading to the creation of superbugs. >our own shells just to survive is an interesting fact. And how low on the >chain >of "life" do we go to have compassion for other living things? For me it tends to diminish as you go down the chain. Bacteria and mold I will mercilessly slaughter. I will make an effort with bugs, putting them outside when I see them or if they're the kind you can't live with, I'll give repelling my best shot before resorting to poison. This actually isn't so much about their suffering tho. It's more that I feel that the planet has room for me and the rodents both, it's not as if they deliberately got together and decided to nest in my house to be an annoyance to me, and I'd much rather take a shot at repelling/redirecting them than just poisoning them right off. But if repelling didn't work I would rather kill them than live in a houseful of roaches. Love on ya, Susan ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V9 #189 *******************************