From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V9 #85 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Sunday, April 2 2000 Volume 09 : Number 085 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: FW: say it ain't so!!!!!!!!!!!! [MARKEEFE@aol.com] Read this only if you know me [The Great Quail ] Fallibility and coffee. [Capuchin ] Re: Fallibility and coffee. [Capuchin ] April 1 [Terrence Marks ] Re: Comics and ads [Terrence Marks ] Capitalist Stooge [BLATZMAN@aol.com] Re: Capitalist Stooge [fartachu ] Re: Comics and ads [Aaron Mandel ] Re: Comics and ads [Terrence Marks ] Re: Capitalist Stooge [Eb ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 17:10:26 EST From: MARKEEFE@aol.com Subject: Re: FW: say it ain't so!!!!!!!!!!!! In a message dated 4/1/00 1:34:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, capuchin@speakeasy.org writes: << Well, this is a flawed position. You will stop buying CDs period, Brian. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind about that. In twenty years, a CD will have vinyl status... but without the benefit of being a fundamentally different medium (analog v. digital) because the new thing will also be digital. >> Digital-schmigital. People are always thinking up new things. How long will it be before they figure out how to use chemicals and gasses to store and transport information? Okay, maybe a while. But just you wait! One day, you will be injected with a vial marked "ROCK MUSIC" and you'll be able to select tracks from some Real Audio Jukebox installed right into your very own brain! << Books and CDs are the things people talk about buying online most often... which is odd to me for two reasons: Both are really just information media and the web is an information medium. In the future, I am absolutely certain that information media will be transmitted as bits (as opposed to transmitted as bits permanently etched in atoms). Books and CDs are for collectors. People who get books and CDs strictly for the information they contain will use something more reusable, versatile and compact. >> But how many people *do* get books and music strictly for this reason? Well, with music, I can see how any sort of artwork could be downloaded and printed and the like. The average consumer has already accepted the packaging compromises that have come with the post-vinyl era; they'll easily accept a little printed out album cover that one adheres to one's thumbnail-sized MicroDisc copy of the Backstreet Boys "Reunion Tour" album that they just downloaded and burned in 10 seconds flat (only to grumble about the new injectible chemical technology that replaces the MicroDisc three years later!). << They are two of the items that you would most like to check out in detail before purchasing. They're inspectable for quality. >> Yeah, but you can listen to real audio samples of albums before you buy them and read snippets and reviews of books. Now, with books, I really like checking out the typeset before I buy I specific version of a classic work. So, I can kinda see your point there. << In fact, I can't think of anything outside of electronics and items with which a person is extremely familiar (like a Robyn album for us, or an Evergreen Chino shirt for me) that is suited for purchase on the net. Nearly everything else benefits greatly from individual inspection. >> Soon, everyone will either be working in the warehouse that store these items that people buy online, or for a web design company, or for some company (UPS, USPS, etc.) that mails these items to customers, and then delivers them back to the manufacturer when the purchaser decides that the shirt doesn't fit properly, and then delivers a different shirt to that same consumer, etc. And, hopefully, there will be an increased demand for park rangers, as they tear down all the malls and put in wildlife sanctuaries in their place. Oh, sorry, got delusional there for a second :-) - ------Michael K. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 17:37:12 -0500 From: The Great Quail Subject: Read this only if you know me Fegs, This is going to be one of the most weird things I've ever written, not to mention one of the most personal things ever written to the Feg List. Forgive me for abusing the List. And, yes, drunk though I am, I know it is still abusing the List. LJ is away for the weekend. You mostly all know I met her on the List, and I love her as much as I love Life itself. So understand, right now it is Saturday afternoon, and I am alone, and depressed, and drunk. I have not posted lately. This does not mean I do not like being on the List anymore. But as most of you know, I used to be a chemistry teacher for 8 years. Then I had a divorce. Then I moved to New York. I found LJ in my moment of darkness. Like God smiled upon me. I am now the Vice President of a company I sort of started. Things are speeding up, my life is very very busy, and I am worried -- get this - -- that I might *start* something important on the Web. I may lose all my "hobby" work -- all my love of Joyce and Borges and the others - -- If this goes under, I may lose it all, in which case, I will be seeking for a new job, without the Libyrinth, without my "weekend passion." If it works, thought, things are cool, and its like a dream come true. Do you understand? My dream may come true. So of course I am risking this....even though I get a few emails every day or so, with people that wonder if I am "selling out." Oh, man, I love literature, and I want to bring it to people. (I do get many more emails from happy people, though., But al lit takes is a few comments to cast doubt on your soul.) But you know, business people have invested over half a million dollars into the site!!! And If I can't came through with it -- yeeeeesh. Bury me with the wormies. What am I trying to say? I love you. Some of you people, you Fegs, have been more than e-mail pen pals to me. I am listening to NIRVANA turned up at max volume, I am drunk out of my *head* and I am depressed. (I keep thinking, "why did Kurt do it? " You know, he was MY EXACT AGE to the WEEK. (And it is my 33rd B-day coming up soon.) It's a pretty depressing thought. Here's this guy, my age, and put a shotgun in his mouth, because he was sick of the world. I want to know -- because some of you guys are still my best friends, whether I've met you or not -- WHY??? Does it worry you when you are listening to "In Utero,"" *Why*???) Oops. Drunk speak. You are all embarrassed treading this, and yet -- ha ha! -- you have all, undoubtedly, engaged in drunk speak. I'm just foolish enough to have fired up my Mac. Anyway, "you can't fire me 'cuz I quit." Well, the point of this is, that I want to say, Fegz. (Note the Eb spelling, because Eb is my friend,) I love you Fegz -- and to Eb and all the Fegz, thanks for being there, during my painful divorce, during my falling in love with LJ, and during my career change, and the fears that are with my new direction. Chris Gross, Jon Fetter, Bayard, Scary Mary, Woj, doug -- you are already my friends, and I see you far too un-often. Tom, Mark, Nick, Mike Runion, Russ, J Kat, Carrie, Gnat, Glen, Vivian, Capuchin, Michael, my wonderful Eddie, Dave D. -- I know your faces, and I am graced by this, and I only wish there was a way to be with you all the more often. Eb, James, Randi, Terrence, Dave, Mike, Susan, Ross, Joel, Stephen, Drew, and God so may others, I only know you through your disembodied voice, transmitted through small black letters on a white field. But still, I know you are there. Thnak you. Bless you. You are part of That Which Keeps Me Sane and Alive. After this, only The Moody Blues and Titanic....heh. Um, WOW, I am depressed and weird, but I will sober up, and BOY DAMN, am I ever going to regret this post after I sober up! - --Q. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 19:03:25 -0800 (PST) From: Capuchin Subject: Fallibility and coffee. Hey, remember that awesome, cheap, great web server I mentioned yesterday? Well, Viv left a full coffee cup next to my mouse and it got dumped inside. The lyrics page will be down for a day or two as well as everything else relating to bitmine.net. Sorry. J. - -- ______________________________________________ J A Brelin Capuchin ______________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 20:32:46 -0800 (PST) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: Fallibility and coffee. On Sat, 1 Apr 2000, Capuchin wrote: > The lyrics page will be down for a day or two as well as everything else > relating to bitmine.net. Well, after some crazy network errors and then the thing failing to post, it seems to have dried out and isn't much worse for the wear. I think we're going to be fine. False alarm. J. - -- ______________________________________________ J A Brelin Capuchin ______________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 04:40:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Terrence Marks Subject: April 1 There's this year's Second Annual Comic Switch. 76 cartoonists this time. http://april.keenspot.com Terrence Marks Unlike Minerva (a comic strip) http://www.unlikeminerva.com normal@grove.ufl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 10:26:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Terrence Marks Subject: Re: Comics and ads Kappu-chan wrote: >It's a sad world where the heavyweights shut down the little guy with >a threat of dragging out a court battle that only one can afford. Hmm? Way I heard it, this guy was shut down by a moderately large independant comic that didn't like losing a few thousand hits per day. >> This "are they doing anything illegal" bit was heavily debated. The >> prevailing answer was "yes". >The prevailing answer to whom? Copyright holders, I assume. Well, the guy on the "no" side was quickly run into the ground and stopped pressing the issue shortly. >It's exactly like writing an abstract program. See all the people that >avoided prosecution for distributing the RSA encryption algorithm >overseas by writing image tag links to images of the algorithm's code on >foreign servers. To the user, it all looked like one page, but because >the image was loading from a site outside the US, there was no case for >the prosecution. That's because 1) It's a criminal case. Copyright claims have much wider jurisdictions. 2) The illegal thing is exporting the program. If it's not in the country to begin with, then 'exporting' charges are a bit tricky >Not legal trouble, financial trouble. You'll be threatened with a >lawsuit or criminal charges, but you will win. Both the ACLU and the >EFF have attorneys that will help if you find yourself in such a case... >however, those organizations can't afford to fight every battle. Having the ACLU or EFF doesn't mean you're right. There's two opposing schools of thought. Each one says that the other doesnt have a leg to stand on. There hasn't been a test case yet. And to date, American courts have been much friendlier to copyright holders than to copyright violators. >Passion is what pays for content. Project Gutenberg doesn't run ads. >Neither I nor woj nor bayard run ads. Content is created by people who >feel compelled to create. Content created for profit is very rarely >worthwhile. I didn't say "created for profit". How far would The Beatles have got if they had to work part-time to make ends meet? Really, Jeme, you're acting as if accepting money for work is a bad thing. >In fact, I find all of my best information on sites built by >enthusiasts. It is usually more honest, thorough, and verbose than >anything a commercial source produces. Fine, but that's not what I asked you. I'm not talking about fegMANIA.org vs. the SonyWEAGram Robyn Hitchcock page put together by some min-wage slob who's never heard "Balloon Man". I'm talking about people who are more likely to provide content if they can make some money while doing it. You can make money and be an enthusiast, you know. >The big pile of unsorted information is being used every day. It >doesn't need to be sorted. Sorting is something you do to suit your own >needs. Now, USENET is sorted, somewhat, but it's sorted by itself... >not by some imposed order based on commercial needs. No. There are a lot of things out there to help you find your way around the Internet. A lot of them are profit-motivated. Try finding a page on Pompano, Florida without using any sort of search engine. >I've said it before and I'll say it again. When the profit motive is >removed, only those that are COMPELLED to create will create. And those >people are the only ones that usually have anything meaningful to create >in the first place. You just dismissed Hans Holbein as a phony and you're expecting volunteerism and spare time to provide us with all of our entertainment. How many films would have been made last year if there were no money in the film industry and no possibility of there ever being money in it? I'm sure you can talk about people being compelled to act and compelled to produce and compelled to be key grips or assistant costuming directors, but how many movies would that get you? And what makes you think that only the bad movies would vanish? Terrence Marks Unlike Minerva (a comic strip) http://www.unlikeminerva.com normal@grove.ufl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 12:35:14 EDT From: BLATZMAN@aol.com Subject: Capitalist Stooge This Capitalist Stooge is veeeeeeeeeeeeery bored with this discusion. And as a writer/editor of television commercials that air all over the country (I am positive that some of you have seen my work), I take offense to advertising bashing. I'm really not interested in hearing about other people's economic and social philosophies, but I forgot which list I'm on. It has a reputation for being everything except a Hitchcock list, which is why I lurk and lurk and lurk, and along with many others, wonder why I'm even here. Stay in school Terry, and make you own decisions. We're all stooges to someone else. Da ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 13:12:05 -0400 From: fartachu Subject: Re: Capitalist Stooge when we last left our heroes, BLATZMAN@aol.com exclaimed: >This Capitalist Stooge is veeeeeeeeeeeeery bored with this discusion. well, then don't read it. no one's making you read every single post to the list. >I'm really not interested in hearing about other people's economic and social >philosophies, but I forgot which list I'm on. the list is what the list is. fegmaniax has evolved into a place where fans of robyn hang out and talk about what's on their mind. as you note, that covers a lot of territory, but robyn's always at the center of the vortex. that's just the way it is, dave, and, frankly, i like it that way. >It has a reputation for being >everything except a Hitchcock list, which is why I lurk and lurk and lurk, >and along with many others, wonder why I'm even here. in case you and the many others did not know, there is moderated version of fegmaniax called fegmaniax-announce. i bounce to fegmaniax-announce anything posted to fegmaniax which is robyn-related -- news, reviews and sometimes a little discussion. to join, send a note to majordomo@smoe.org which says unsubscribe fegmaniax (or unsubscribe fegmaniax-digest) subscribe fegmaniax-announce woj ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 13:50:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: Comics and ads On Sun, 2 Apr 2000, Terrence Marks wrote: > And to date, American courts have been much friendlier to copyright > holders than to copyright violators. i'd look up "begging the question" in a book on rhetoric if i were you. > How many films would have been made last year if there were no money > in the film industry and no possibility of there ever being money in > it? i don't know. i do know that i don't especially enjoy watching movies when it's clear that the people involved think they're buying a lottery ticket rather than telling a story. the "possibility of there being money in it" is in any number of professions and yet people pour their hearts into ill-paid labor on movies a lot more often than they pour their hearts into ill-paid accountancy internships. why is that? with the rise of the web, millions of people around the world have started producing free public content. much of it is crap. but they're doing it, and even some of the worse ones interest more people than, say, the Super Mario Brothers movie. mind you, i wouldn't go as far as Jeme. i don't expect everything to be free, and i don't mind when my money changes hands for a record that i could download at no cost, if it's going into the right hands. but for the money it took to make Titanic, you could pay my salary (on which i'm getting by fine, thank you very much) to every single person who performed on a CD i bought last year, plus 1/4 of that to all the producers and engineers, and you'd still have more than enough money left over to buy a big gun for James Cameron and a nice box of chocolates for all the promotional people to entertain them while they look for new jobs. and i buy a lot of CDs. aaron ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 16:04:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Terrence Marks Subject: Re: Comics and ads On Sun, 2 Apr 2000, Aaron Mandel wrote: > > And to date, American courts have been much friendlier to copyright > > holders than to copyright violators. > > i'd look up "begging the question" in a book on rhetoric if i were you. Doesn't that have something to do with circular reasoning? What I'm doing is using inflammatory and slightly unfair definitions that presuppose that I'm right. > with the rise of the web, millions of people around the world have started > producing free public content. much of it is crap. but they're doing it, > and even some of the worse ones interest more people than, say, the Super > Mario Brothers movie. I'm painfully aware of this. There's lots of strips out there I look at and think "Why would _anyone_ read this?". Now, I admit that the system isn't perfect and that there is a lot of crap out there. My point is that being paid for intellectual property is a good thing. If that system gives you an extra 3 good items and an extra 90 bad ones, you're still 3 good items ahead. I don't care one way or the other about advertising on the internet as such. It's just currently the best way for people like me to get money for my content. I give people the option of sponsoring my work or subsidizing it by buying prints. They don't. Terrence Marks Unlike Minerva (a comic strip) http://www.unlikeminerva.com normal@grove.ufl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 19:17:55 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Capitalist Stooge >It has a reputation for being >everything except a Hitchcock list, which is why I lurk and lurk and lurk, >and along with many others, wonder why I'm even here. Hot damn! We got a *rep*! Eb ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V9 #85 ******************************