From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V8 #460 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Friday, December 10 1999 Volume 08 : Number 460 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: eb all over the all over [Miles Goosens ] Re: Fight Club (was: eb all over the all over) [MARKEEFE@aol.com] Re: eb all over the all over [Joel Mullins ] labless in Michigan [Natalie Jacobs ] Re: Fight Club (was: eb all over the all over) [Eleanore Adams ] Re: eb all over the all over [Miles Goosens ] eb all over my sphincter ["Reaganite Dolt" ] Re: eb all over my sphincter [Eb ] More on BB on TV (NR) [steve ] Re: Unca Lou [hamish_simpson@agilent.com] Re: Unca Lou, Unca Sterling, Unca John and Auntie Moe [Michael R Godwin <] Re: Unca Lou [rich plumb ] Re: Unca Lou [Tom Clark ] Re: eb all over the all over [Aaron Mandel ] Re: eb all over the all over [Miles Goosens ] celebrity death [Ben ] Re: Unca Lou, Unca Sterling, Unca John and Auntie Moe [Eb ] Re: eb all over the all over [MARKEEFE@aol.com] 100% XTC bashing [Natalie Jacobs ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 16:41:39 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: eb all over the all over At 02:41 PM 12/09/1999 -0500, MARKEEFE@aol.com wrote: >------Michael K., who finally saw "Fight Club" the other night and am sorry >to say that I *really* liked it! (stop smirking, Mr. Wolfe!) I can't remember if I've said it on this list, but FIGHT CLUB is easily my favorite movie of 1999. However, I can't figure out why both fans and detractors say it's a movie about men -- it seems to me to be primarily a movie about the soul-corroding forces of capitalism, and not even subtly so... later, Miles ====================================================== Miles Goosens UNlimited edition R. Stevie Moore CDs now available! http://www.rsteviemoore.com My personal website http://www.mindspring.com/~outdoorminer/miles "If a million people say a stupid thing, it is still a stupid thing." -- Anatole France ====================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 18:35:47 EST From: MARKEEFE@aol.com Subject: Re: Fight Club (was: eb all over the all over) In a message dated 12/9/99 2:48:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, outdoorminer@mindspring.com writes: << I can't remember if I've said it on this list, but FIGHT CLUB is easily my favorite movie of 1999. However, I can't figure out why both fans and detractors say it's a movie about men -- it seems to me to be primarily a movie about the soul-corroding forces of capitalism, and not even subtly so... >> Well, I'd say that there are many themes in "Fight Club." You probably get out of it what you want/need to. The "anti-capitalism" theme didn't even make much of an impression on me, although, now that you mention it, it's clearly there. I guess I considered it more of a plot vehicle. The theme I got out of it was that you really need to pay attention and make sure you don't dig yourself into a rut. The cast is mostly male, and it's a pretty violent movie, so I can see how some people would say it's about men. I would *think* the themes would be more universal than that, and yet, when I tend to think of people to whom I'd recommend the movie, it's mostly men. To almost anyone but Jeme, I'd generalize and say that we men more often need a metaphorical jab to the noggin' to get us to go to the next layer down and figure out what's really bugging us . . . whereas women usually have a whole list handy! Just kidding :-) Anyway, I don't want to start a thrice-annual men v. women discussion, but I can kinda see why "Fight Club" might be deemed a "men's movie." On the other hand, it's also well filmed and has many elements of a good psychological thriller, so that'd have to appeal to anyone (with taste). And it's got lots of shirtless guys, so that'd have to appeal to a decent number of women (and add more/some appeal to some men). Eez good. Go see. You like. - ------Michael K. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:55:02 -0800 (PST) From: Joel Mullins Subject: Re: eb all over the all over - --- MARKEEFE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/8/99 6:34:02 PM Pacific > Standard Time, > etews@hotmail.com writes: > > << Welcome to floor 7-1/2!> > > the most disappointing movie, in my opinion, since > The Truman Show. not > saying it's nearly so godawful as The Truman Show, > but still a major > letdown. >> > > I would pretty much agree. The first 1/3 or so > of the movie is GREAT! > But the rest of it seemed really stale and just > plain nasty. I haven't seen > the new Bond flick yet, but I'm expecting to enjoy > it more than "Being J.M." My sentiments exactly. The best part of "Being JM" was when people fell out of him and into the ditch. > ------Michael K., who finally saw "Fight Club" the > other night and am sorry > to say that I *really* liked it! Fight Club is awesome!! I really want to see it again. Joel __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:57:23 -0500 (EST) From: Natalie Jacobs Subject: labless in Michigan I spent a lot of time trying to get directions to Clutch Cargo's in Pontiac, where Stereolab were playing. I drove an hour to get there, arrived early, and waited in the car for half an hour till the doors opened. I went to go in and discovered that the show was cancelled because Laetitia Sadier had gone to the hospital with throat problems. It took nearly two hours to get home because I got lost in Pontiac's impenetrable tangle of one-way streets. I think I'm going to cry. n. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 20:36:16 +0800 From: Eleanore Adams Subject: Re: Fight Club (was: eb all over the all over) I , hands down, say that Fight Club was the best movie of 1999, and I am a woman. I just got out of my Criminal law final and can't think for a second about all of the reasons I loved it, but I couldn't stop talking about it for a week. I went and saw it on opening night, and know that I recommended it to eveyone I knew the after. I know I mentioned it on the list. There is something for everyone in that movie. Very multi leveled and dimentinal. And I think it is universal, not just male. Especially after that short thread about violence in society. How can one not relate, male or female? I would give a better opinion or analysis, but I just got out of exams and just want a shot of Johnny Walker black. eleanore MARKEEFE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/9/99 2:48:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, > outdoorminer@mindspring.com writes: > > << I can't remember if I've said it on this list, but FIGHT CLUB is easily my > favorite movie of 1999. However, I can't figure out why both fans and > detractors say it's a movie about men -- it seems to me to be primarily a > movie about the soul-corroding forces of capitalism, and not even subtly > so... >> > > Well, I'd say that there are many themes in "Fight Club." You probably > get out of it what you want/need to. The "anti-capitalism" theme didn't even > make much of an impression on me, although, now that you mention it, it's > clearly there. I guess I considered it more of a plot vehicle. The theme I > got out of it was that you really need to pay attention and make sure you > don't dig yourself into a rut. > The cast is mostly male, and it's a pretty violent movie, so I can see > how some people would say it's about men. I would *think* the themes would > be more universal than that, and yet, when I tend to think of people to whom > I'd recommend the movie, it's mostly men. To almost anyone but Jeme, I'd > generalize and say that we men more often need a metaphorical jab to the > noggin' to get us to go to the next layer down and figure out what's really > bugging us . . . whereas women usually have a whole list handy! Just > kidding :-) Anyway, I don't want to start a thrice-annual men v. women > discussion, but I can kinda see why "Fight Club" might be deemed a "men's > movie." > On the other hand, it's also well filmed and has many elements of a > good psychological thriller, so that'd have to appeal to anyone (with taste). > And it's got lots of shirtless guys, so that'd have to appeal to a decent > number of women (and add more/some appeal to some men). > Eez good. Go see. You like. > > ------Michael K. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 23:50:29 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: eb all over the all over On Thu, 9 Dec 1999, Miles Goosens wrote: > I can't remember if I've said it on this list, but FIGHT CLUB is > easily my favorite movie of 1999. However, I can't figure out why > both fans and detractors say it's a movie about men -- it seems to me > to be primarily a movie about the soul-corroding forces of capitalism, > and not even subtly so... first, there's the vaguely freudian stuff that brad-tyler spouts about a generation of men raised by women... i don't know how seriously we're meant to take that; i'm happy to interpret it as an initial failed attempt by ed-tyler to reconcile the schism in his personality. but then there's the relationship between ed and brad. maybe it's not about *men*, but it's about sexuality and to some degree gender. moreover, you've got a boys-only club which does very masculine things at the heart of that attack on capitalism. folks don't seem to agree on whether the horrible (to some) things they do are supposed to look like a truly and inherently good thing, or if the critique of capitalism is that even these acts of violence, the only way out, are not awful enough to make capitalism preferable. a ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 23:42:03 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: eb all over the all over At 11:50 PM 12/09/1999 -0500, Aaron Mandel wrote: I'm leaving in the spoiler space, because if you haven't seen the movie, you really need to experience it the first time in a state of blissful ignorance of the film's particulars... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >but then there's the relationship between ed and brad. maybe it's not >about *men*, but it's about sexuality and to some degree gender. O.K., I can accept *that,* but not that it's the central thesis of the movie. I think if that's what they were after, there would have been a lot more "contrast and compare" with the self-help groups from the film's first half-hour (feminine) vs. the Fight Clubs (masculine), and more pointed use made of Helena Bonham Carter's character. And I see the "sexuality and to some degree gender" points being subsumed by the anti-capitalist thesis -- the commodification and commercialization of everything has twisted the characters' sexual lives, just as it's done to every other aspect of their personalities and societal roles. >moreover, you've got a boys-only club which does very masculine things at >the heart of that attack on capitalism. folks don't seem to agree on >whether the horrible (to some) things they do are supposed to look like a >truly and inherently good thing, or if the critique of capitalism is that >even these acts of violence, the only way out, are not awful enough to >make capitalism preferable. I think the film is saying that modern society is so completely fucked up that it produces individuals like Tyler Durden and Ed's character, who are pure creations of that fucked-up society -- so disconnected from real feelings and cogent thought that their attempts to break out of their paradigm leave them as smouldering psychic wrecks. For example, Tyler puts together a highly disciplined neo-fascist private guerrilla force whose anarchic pranksterism is going to lead to... a pastoral utopia where animals walk free through decaying parking lots? Like those two things are reconcilable... The films works as critique on several levels -- both of capitalism in general and the incredibly messed-up recourses the film's characters take when they try to come to grips with their deep--seated disaffection. later, Miles ====================================================== Miles Goosens UNlimited edition R. Stevie Moore CDs now available! http://www.rsteviemoore.com My personal website http://www.mindspring.com/~outdoorminer/miles "If a million people say a stupid thing, it is still a stupid thing." -- Anatole France ====================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 22:23:44 PST From: "Reaganite Dolt" Subject: eb all over my sphincter nope. (unless they performed it at one of the three shows i missed. but i'd doubt it.) i requested it, but the idea didn't float too well. lindsay and chris don't even know it, i guess. just homer, actually. the Superkeen single predates the homer lounge. sure. they played it at the deuce (but this is probably where the XMAS PARTY version comes from). the few keegan/homer boots i have (prior to this most recent tour) are of pretty lousy quality. i thought HIGHWAY TO HELL was your all-time favorite record? KEN "Right back atcha" THE KENSTER ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:28:43 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Re: eb all over my sphincter I don't think I like the sound of that.... Eb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 00:55:55 -0600 From: steve Subject: More on BB on TV (NR) http://scifi.ign.com/tv/3284.html _______________ We're all Jesus, Buddha, and the Wizard of Oz! - Andy Partridge ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:56:43 +0000 From: hamish_simpson@agilent.com Subject: Re: Unca Lou I saw the VU in Edinburgh at what was the first of the reunion shows (still have the t-shirt somewhere) and I thought it was excellent. To answer TCs question, John Cale read "The Gift" from a folder. I was impressed that he managed it at all while playing bass, even turning the page at one point. The thing I really liked about the gig was, although a lot of the old guard fans decided to dress exceedingly retro for the gig, the band just looked like regular people. When I thought about it they probably would have looked ridiculous "in costume" but it served to emphasise the importance of the music over the rest of the junk. Yeah I agree Lou kind of took charge, even drawing Sterling Morrison one hell of a look when he started off into the wrong song. If I'd been Sterling at that point I'd have hooked Lou but there you go. Incidentally, I hadn't realised that Sterling was a damned fine guitarist. Mind you, you don't need to be that accomplished to be better than Lou!!! Anyway, I'm just glad to have been a part of history , like MAN! (H) NP - The Flaming Lips - "Transmissions From The Satellite Heart" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:36:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Re: Unca Lou, Unca Sterling, Unca John and Auntie Moe On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 hamish_simpson@agilent.com wrote: > I saw the VU in Edinburgh at what was the first of the reunion shows > (still have the t-shirt somewhere) and I thought it was excellent. I saw the Wembley Arena gig, which followed the Edinburgh show, and I loved every minute. The venue was too big (7000-8000 people) but I had given up hope of ever hearing that VU sound live, and when they played 'Black angel's death song' and 'Waiting for the man' I flipped completely (well, not quite to the Magic-Band-playing-Big-Eyed-Beans extent, but getting on that way). They sounded exactly like the record only live and loud. What a contrast from Lou Reed and the Tots doing that horrid slowed-down version of WFTM. > To answer TCs question, John Cale read "The Gift" from a folder. I was > impressed that he managed it at all while playing bass, even turning the > page at one point. My recollection is that he stood at the keyboard to read it at Wembley. He also did a fabulous job on vocals and keyboards with 'All Tomorrow's Parties'. The one element which was missing was Lou's voice - he wasn't even trying to hit some of the original notes, and my impression was that his voice was shot (now there is a concept). OTOH, he played all the guitar parts note for note, even on songs where I hadn't realised that there were guitar parts (as opposed to random strumming). The Victor Bockris bio of Lou suggests that he relapsed into his usual paranoid, unliveable-with self after the second or third gig, and it sounds as if the Glastonbury performance was a disaster. > Anyway, I'm just glad to have been a part of history , like MAN! Ditto likewise. But I was disappointed that Lou and John didn't play a couple of Songs for 'Drella. The only new material was that very slight Coyote thing. Mike "Electricity comes from other planets" Godwin PS Favourite Velvets albums: 1 First album/ 2 VU / 3 White Light White Heat / 4 Third album / 5 Loaded special edition. Worst: Another View ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 06:50:55 -0800 (PST) From: rich plumb Subject: Re: Unca Lou - --- Tom Clark wrote: > > Perhaps Matt can answer my question from a few days ago: Did Cale recite > "The Gift" from memory, or did he read it? That is, if they did it at > all at that gig. > If Matt can't help you, why don't you check out the video released at the same time as the cd. I'm pretty sure it's the same performance as the cd. I saw the video when it came out, but can't remember Cale's performance of this song. rich __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 09:39:06 -0800 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: Unca Lou On 12/10/99 6:50 AM, rich plumb wrote: >--- Tom Clark wrote: >> >> Perhaps Matt can answer my question from a few days ago: Did Cale recite >> "The Gift" from memory, or did he read it? That is, if they did it at >> all at that gig. >> >If Matt can't help you, why don't you check out the video released at the >same time as the cd. I'm pretty sure it's the same performance as the cd. >I saw the video when it came out, but can't remember Cale's performance of >this song. I doubt I'll be buying it, but it sounds like a good rental. Thanks! - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 14:15:50 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: eb all over the all over On Thu, 9 Dec 1999, Miles Goosens wrote: > I'm leaving in the spoiler space, because if you haven't seen the movie, > you really need to experience it the first time in a state of blissful > ignorance of the film's particulars... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think if that's what they were after, there would have been a lot > more "contrast and compare" with the self-help groups from the film's first > half-hour (feminine) vs. the Fight Clubs (masculine), i hadn't thought of it that way before, but i'm not entirely convinced... brad pitt is an expression of things ed learned in his recovery groups (isn't "hitting bottom" an AA thing?); if anything, the people in recovery groups aren't feminized, they've just lost whatever their original gender was, like bob and chloe. > the commodification and commercialization of everything has twisted > the characters' sexual lives, just as it's done to every other aspect > of their personalities and societal roles. not sure i follow here. capitalism has turned ed queer? > For example, Tyler puts together a highly disciplined neo-fascist > private guerrilla force whose anarchic pranksterism is going to lead > to... a pastoral utopia where animals walk free through decaying > parking lots? Like those two things are reconcilable... and yet, ed does, in the end, heal himself by putting himself through hell. brad emphasizes that you have to accept death; when ed actually does, his enormous psychological problems (apparently) go away. the "space monkey" thing was a little confusing, but i think it was supposed to bring in the idea of a sacrifice. people are sacrificing themselves for fight club but, though it makes sense to be a little scared of the mindless cult members, tyler isn't asking them to do anything that he isn't willing (some would say "consumed by a masochistic need") to do to himself in order to help society. the servants are rising up to defeat their masters... no wait, they're actually doing the world a service... when brad pitt submits to a beating from the mob boss, it's in order to eventually turn it around and get the upper hand, but most of the time people in the movie get beat up, they aren't winning or losing anything. maybe i'm coming around to your point of view. a ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 13:23:57 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: eb all over the all over At 02:15 PM 12/10/1999 -0500, Aaron Mandel wrote: >On Thu, 9 Dec 1999, Miles Goosens wrote: > >> I'm leaving in the spoiler space, because if you haven't seen the movie, >> you really need to experience it the first time in a state of blissful >> ignorance of the film's particulars... >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> I think if that's what they were after, there would have been a lot >> more "contrast and compare" with the self-help groups from the film's first >> half-hour (feminine) vs. the Fight Clubs (masculine), > >i hadn't thought of it that way before, but i'm not entirely >convinced... brad pitt is an expression of things ed learned in his >recovery groups (isn't "hitting bottom" an AA thing?); if anything, the >people in recovery groups aren't feminized, they've just lost whatever >their original gender was, like bob and chloe. Good point. I think I'm reacting more to the coverage of the film in the mainstream media than to anything you were actually saying, and I apologize about that. When they say that the film is about gender, they have a far more shallow idea of what that entails than you do. >> the commodification and commercialization of everything has twisted >> the characters' sexual lives, just as it's done to every other aspect >> of their personalities and societal roles. > >not sure i follow here. capitalism has turned ed queer? ??? Egad, that's what you inferred from what I said? I'd never treat "queer" and "twisted" as synonyms. What I mean is that Ed's character is incredibly removed from the ability to process any real emotion. So when he's attracted to Helena Bonham Carter, it's Tyler who ends up fucking her, while Ed leaves for himself only the emotional palette with which he's familiar -- jealousy, contempt, anger. Ed's disconnection is so great that this is the only way he can cope with the positive emotions he has for her. later, Miles ====================================================== Miles Goosens UNlimited edition R. Stevie Moore CDs now available! http://www.rsteviemoore.com My personal website http://www.mindspring.com/~outdoorminer/miles "If a million people say a stupid thing, it is still a stupid thing." -- Anatole France ====================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 14:31:16 -0500 From: Ben Subject: celebrity death Rick Danko ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:33:22 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Re: Unca Lou, Unca Sterling, Unca John and Auntie Moe MG: >What a contrast from Lou Reed and the Tots doing that horrid >slowed-down version of WFTM. When was his band called "the Tots"? Anyone with name recognition, in that configuration? >The one element which was missing was Lou's voice - he wasn't even trying >to hit some of the original notes, and my impression was that his voice >was shot (now there is a concept). I get the feeling that Reed has a compulsion to fiddle with his melodies onstage, as if he gets quickly bores of singing them as recorded. Or as if singing them straight would be sort of "giving the people what they want," and he cringes at the concept. "If they're going to demand that I sing those damn VU oldies every night, then I'm going to mess around with them, but good!" And it's hard to imagine him singing something as wispy as "Candy Says" today -- it just doesn't mesh with his current persona, somehow. Unca Eb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:44:17 -0800 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: celebrity death On 12/10/99 11:31 AM, Ben wrote: >Rick Danko One day after his 56th birthday - that's sad. Dude had a pretty fucked up last 20 years. Who'd 'a thunk Levon Helm would be in the running for last surviving member of The Band? - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:26:16 EST From: MARKEEFE@aol.com Subject: Re: eb all over the all over In a message dated 12/10/99 11:20:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, aaron@eecs.harvard.edu writes: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ><< and yet, ed does, in the end, heal himself by putting himself through hell. brad emphasizes that you have to accept death; when ed actually does, his enormous psychological problems (apparently) go away. >> Hmm. I'm not entirely sure about that. I saw his blowing out the back of Tyler's head (and nearly his own real head!) as the step that was necessary for him to take in order to integrate Tyler into his own personality. I guess this was a sort of psychological healing, but the fact that he then became a fully conscious leader of an underground terrorist group leads me to think that he might still have . . . well, some unresolved issues. And anyone who would want that crazy chick for a girlfriend must have at least a *few* loose screws! - ------Michael K. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 19:13:55 -0500 (EST) From: Natalie Jacobs Subject: 100% XTC bashing >I can see how you'd be unsympathetic, but the fact is, if someone >gives you an advance (in this case XTC's Japanese distributor), they >expect you to spend most of it on production costs. Oh, so their distributor gave them the money? I wonder if the distributor was pissed off that XTC spent all that cash making an album which is virtually indistinguishable from the (presumably much more cheaply-made) demos. (And then there's that story about how Andy Partridge went on vacation for two weeks with the studio clock still ticking...) Somehow or other, my heart still fails to bleed. I might be a little more sympathetic if Partridge were willing to take responsibility for his own fuck-ups, but I doubt that'll ever happen. gnat "Hell hath no fury like a disillusioned XTC fan" the gnatster ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V8 #460 *******************************