From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V8 #440 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Wednesday, November 24 1999 Volume 08 : Number 440 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Tapes? ["E. Rosenow" ] The look of a thornton [Capuchin ] why that subject line, anyway? [dmw ] a correction and two wheee's [Natalie Jacobs ] Re: a correction and two wheee's [Glen Uber ] Skip and a Drake: I, Stan, correct did. [Bayard ] Re: why that subject line, anyway? Or: How I learned to Love Cunt Rock [V] whose subject line is it anyway? [Bayard ] Re: Skip and a Drake: I, Stan, correct did. [Vivien Lyon ] RE: vulvian's theory, etc. [Eb ] veg, feg, green and beatle ["jbranscombe@compuserve.com" ] RE: vulvian's theory, etc. [dmw ] Re: Skip and a Drake and a Denny [Vivien Lyon ] Come in number 26! ...and other flotsam. ["Crazy Unca' Nick" ] You break it, you buy it. [Vivien Lyon ] mileage may vary [Vivien Lyon ] Re: Skip and a Drake [hal brandt ] Departure Lounge at the Largo 11/23 ["Kim Ranocchia" ] Re: sorry, not buying it [MARKEEFE@aol.com] Re: You break it, you buy it. [dmw ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:45:21 -0800 (PST) From: "E. Rosenow" Subject: Tapes? Are there any high quality tapes out there from this latest tour? I'm especially looking for the Seattle show at the Crocodile. Let me know... Thanks! - -Erik Rosenow erikr@u.washington.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:55:29 -0800 (PST) From: Capuchin Subject: The look of a thornton Is this "To:" line really necessary? On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Jason R. Thornton wrote: > That may very well be the oddest comment on my physical appearance I've > ever heard, brother. ;) Well, that and the comment made by a girl at the > front counter of the hotel I stayed at in Sacramento last week saying that > I looked like a famous actor stud whom I'm too embarrassed to even > mention. HA! I fucking wish! She was obviously just being flirty, because > that was the biggest load of crap I've ever heard. Yeah, when people tell > you look like Jennifer Lopez, baby, it bet you just lap it up. So it's been bugging me since about last Friday... who's that movie guy that Jason Thornton looks like? Well, I'm sure it's not the embarrassing person that the hotel chica mentioned (though I'm dying to found out what she said). I could only see the actor's face and couldn't put it in context or a scene or anything until today. Jason looks like David Morse... kinda. To me anyway. Here are a couple of pictures that represent it fairly adequately: http://www.magma.ca/~sidekick/feb99/character.html Now I have to figure out what Donald Pleasance looks like. J. - -- ______________________________________________ J A Brelin Capuchin ______________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:00:23 -0500 (EST) From: dmw Subject: why that subject line, anyway? On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, Anal Oil Leakage wrote: > entire tour. (okay, after tim dessicating robyn's electric during his > Elizabeth Jade solo in atlanta. after that, he played robyn's electric > every time they did Elizabeth Jade, but never lit into it with the same > gusto as in atlanta. (where, you'll recall, he'd been playing electric only tim removed all moisture from robyn's guitar? this may go a long way to explaining the equipment problems with which this tour has been plagued!! jazz: my fave: thelonious monk, _monk's music_. features trane. and coleman hawkins. _kind of blue_ is sure up there, though. 'trane: i'd recommend _giant steps_ over _a love supreme_ for the newbie... the latter is perhaps more characteristic, but the former probably more accessible. i'm guessing terrence might find sun ra worth investigating. i've always thought of "bop" and "hard bop" as descending from be-bop in a way that de-emphasized the danceable rhythms of be-bop in favor of more complex harmonic harmonic excursions (monk being a quintessential transitional artist) and cool jazz as emphasizing melodic lyricism, but maybe that's just me. nobody's mentioned yet dept: sonny rollins! - -- d. n.p. sonic youth et al _goodbye 20th century_ disc 1 - - oh no, you've just read mail from doug = dmw@radix.net - get yr pathos - - www.pathetic-caverns.com -- books, flicks, tunes, etc. = reviews - - www.fecklessbeast.com -- angst, guilt, fear, betrayal! = guitar pop ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:53:42 -0500 (EST) From: Natalie Jacobs Subject: a correction and two wheee's a correction: >Robynbase now contains nearly 1000 live >appearances and exactly 800 songs Robyn has played. The 800th? Nick >Drake's "Broken Heart". There is no Nick Drake song by that title, as far as I know. Are you sure you got the name/artist right? wheee #1: I finally bought the Magnetic Fields' "69 Love Songs" box set on Monday and have been listening to it steadily ever since. Yeah, there's a fair amount of filler, but there's also a lot of songs that are just plain fantastic. I gotta hand it to little Stephin - it's a big project, but he managed to pull it off, bless his surly heart. wheee #2: "Being John Malkovich" has edged out "American Beauty" as my favorite movie of the year. It's funny, weird, imaginative, and engaging, and the bizarre plot somehow holds up all the way through. My friend Colin and I (the Siskel and Ebert of Ann Arbor) give it two thumbs up. Our next target: "The Princess Mononoke." n. p.s. Brava Randi, and good luck on the (hopefully lucky) 13th. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:00:27 -0800 (PST) From: Glen Uber Subject: Re: a correction and two wheee's On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Natalie Jacobs wrote: >a correction: >>Robynbase now contains nearly 1000 live >>appearances and exactly 800 songs Robyn has played. The 800th? Nick >>Drake's "Broken Heart". > >There is no Nick Drake song by that title, as far as I know. Are you sure >you got the name/artist right? I think it's the Skip Spence song that RH did on "More Oar". Cheers! - -g- "When you encourage people to think freely, you are inciting a revolution." --Glen Uber +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Glen Uber uberg@sonic.net http://www.sonic.net/~uberg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:02:24 -0500 (EST) From: Bayard Subject: Skip and a Drake: I, Stan, correct did. > >Drake's "Broken Heart". > > There is no Nick Drake song by that title, as far as I know. Are you sure > you got the name/artist right? Quite right, I realized my error after logging off last night and have been laying in wait to see who would pipe up. It is of course Robyn's Skip Spence tribute, not his Drake tribute. (Now can anyone remind me what Drake song Robyn played at the Nick Drake remembrance gig earlier this year?) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:12:39 -0800 (PST) From: Vivien Lyon Subject: Re: why that subject line, anyway? Or: How I learned to Love Cunt Rock - --- dmw wrote: why that subject line, anyway? Cunt rock is my own appellation for the female version of cock rock. Obviously the lurid nature of the term has caputured Eddie's imagination, and I couldn't be more pleased that it might enter into the common lexicon. It's been unanimously decided by such luminaries as Gnat and Capuchin that Alanis Morissette is the prime example of cunt rock, followed closely by Joan Osborne and Shania Twain. Basically, cunt rock can be defined as any throaty, whiny music sung by a female who gets a lot of mileage out of being a female. Especially if the person singing may not be the author of the song. However, Ani Defranco and Tori Amos still qualify. It has also been decided that Woj is a major cunt-rocker. Sorry, Woj. Vivien __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:24:20 -0500 (EST) From: Bayard Subject: whose subject line is it anyway? On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Vivien Lyon wrote: >Sorry, Woj [sic] hey, sounds like a compliment to me! happy overindulgence day, everyone! =b "care to explain capuchin's 'To:' line now?" the beastie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:29:36 -0800 (PST) From: Vivien Lyon Subject: Re: Skip and a Drake: I, Stan, correct did. - --- Bayard wrote: (Now can anyone remind me > what Drake song Robyn played at the Nick Drake remembrance gig earlier > this year?) Well, being the only list-feg who attended this, I thought, 'I'm a prime candidate to answer this query.' But then I couldn't remember. Luckily we have the archives to remember for us. It was Matty Groves. Vivien __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:42:32 -0500 (EST) From: Bayard Subject: Skip and a Drake and a Denny > Well, being the only list-feg who attended this, I thought, 'I'm a prime > candidate to answer this query.' But then I couldn't remember. Luckily we > have the archives to remember for us. It was Matty Groves. that was the Sandy Denny tribute gig in Brooklyn, no? I refer to the Concert appearance Sat., 25 Sep. 1999 at The Barbican (london). he sure do tribute a lot of songwriters! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:20:19 -0800 From: Eb Subject: RE: vulvian's theory, etc. >Cunt rock is my own appellation for the female version of cock rock. >Obviously the lurid nature of the term has caputured Eddie's imagination, >and I couldn't be more pleased that it might enter into the common >lexicon. It's been unanimously decided by such luminaries as Gnat and >Capuchin that Alanis Morissette is the prime example of cunt rock, >followed closely by Joan Osborne and Shania Twain. I can appreciate the term, but...Joan and Shania? I dunno. Hell, they aren't even "rock." How about Cuntney Love? >It has also been decided that Woj is a major cunt-rocker. Sorry, Woj. Though again, most of the stuff Woj puddles himself over is pop or folk, rather than rock.... >ps: I went from the fusion stuff directly into the ECM stuff into ambient - >it seemed an obvious progression... Then I guess I took the less obvious route. I went from avant-garde/ambient music to ECM stuff to more straight-ahead jazz. And I *still* haven't gone into fusion, beyond certain Miles Davis albums. Most of that stuff really leaves me cold. As far as jazz goes, the big catalyst album for me was John Zorn's "The Big Gundown." It's not even jazz, really, but this was certainly the album which extended my personal research from KUCI's pop/rock archives to the jazz wall. Yup. (The first Coltrane album anyone should buy: Giant Steps.) Speaking of databases, I recently discovered that the RIAA website (http://www.riaa.com) has a searchable database which will give you the Gold/Platinum/Multi-Platinum albums and singles for any artist name you input. Neat! What a useful reference tool. Never would've guessed that Astral Weeks hasn't even reached Gold status.... Eb, a bit leery of the potential duration of this jazz thread 15) Matthew Sweet/Girlfriend ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 18:21:21 -0500 From: "jbranscombe@compuserve.com" Subject: veg, feg, green and beatle I'm a veggie and may be the only list-er who actually went to a vegetarian school !!! St Christopher School, Letchworth Garden City: home to many a crank over the years. Talking of vegetarians Sir Paul's vocal perf. on the new album (which I've just got for my b'day) is extraordinary. The range, attack and sensitivity deserve shouting to the heights. And of course Mick 'Fucking' Green is immense... The version of All Shook Up is...no...I can't bring myself to say it.... jm 'macca is better than Elvis' bc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 18:23:14 -0500 (EST) From: dmw Subject: sorry, not buying it On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Vivien Lyon wrote: > can be defined as any throaty, whiny music sung by a female who gets a lot > of mileage out of being a female. Especially if the person singing may not > be the author of the song. However, Ani Defranco and Tori Amos still > qualify. It has also been decided that Woj is a major cunt-rocker. Sorry, > Woj. what, and i'm not? offended, me. i think what's most suspect here is the notion of getting "a lot of mileage out of being a female." in music biz terms this is pretty hard to defend; it's still vastly easier for musicians to attract label interest, club gigs, etc. if they're *not* female. major radio stations still treat female artists as something to be handled in a quota-driven fashion; seldom more than one per hour; and few remark on the irony that the quota of male artists is so out of whack. i don't think that female musicians should get some sort of slack, automatic extra points in record reviews or any rot like that. i think music should be judged by the same standards regardless of the gender of its creators. (ultimately, i think it's patronizing and insulting to do otherwise) i won't say that doesn't happen (i even did it once, years ago in a careless stupid moment), but i don't really see adopting deragatory speech as a useful way to discourage the practice, and i don't see that ms. morrisette, amos, etc. are to blame for the way the media does or doesn't respond to their work. (using the word "cunt" as a term of empowerment is an entirely different matter, but that really doesn't seem to be what you're doing) - -- d. snide p.s.: difranco may be many things, but "whiny" i find hard to credit. ever actually listened to one of her records? n.p. v/a i metal. enh. not as fun as it sounded, and the dullest track i've heard from jejune. - - oh no, you've just read mail from doug = dmw@radix.net - get yr pathos - - www.pathetic-caverns.com -- books, flicks, tunes, etc. = reviews - - www.fecklessbeast.com -- angst, guilt, fear, betrayal! = guitar pop ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 18:25:26 -0500 (EST) From: dmw Subject: RE: vulvian's theory, etc. On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Eb wrote: > (The first Coltrane album anyone should buy: Giant Steps.) fuck, something musical that mystery flat and i agree on! this is alarming. > 15) Matthew Sweet/Girlfriend oh god, not twice in one mesage.... - - oh no, you've just read mail from doug = dmw@radix.net - get yr pathos - - www.pathetic-caverns.com -- books, flicks, tunes, etc. = reviews - - www.fecklessbeast.com -- angst, guilt, fear, betrayal! = guitar pop ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:27:53 -0800 (PST) From: Vivien Lyon Subject: Re: Skip and a Drake and a Denny - --- Bayard wrote: > > that was the Sandy Denny tribute gig in Brooklyn, no? I refer to the > Concert appearance Sat., 25 Sep. 1999 at The Barbican (london). Man, is my face red. I have no idea how I misread that. Vivien __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:35:14 -0800 From: "Crazy Unca' Nick" Subject: Come in number 26! ...and other flotsam. As Bradley would say: > All through the SF show [...] Hope you managed to say hi to at least *some* of the happy Festers who were there. Sorry you weren't on my list. ...next time! Any other Fegs at SF I missed? > ...So rather than do a song, he when into one of his stories > about a dog going through a door, running into its otherself, its > shadow turning into a cat, an evil onion a bottle of Aqua Velva Thanks for helping me remember this glorious moment. Mark sed: ...well, who knows *what* the heck Mark said? Whatever it was I'm sure it was all lovely, but I still think Mark is long overdue for a change of medication... There was something in there about rude people talking through DL's set. I agree, of course - it's inexcusable - but to my ear it *did* sound awfully like background music. They weren't exactly fighting for my attention either. With nothing much to look at, I sat down about half way through and started going through Eddies photos ...then I noticed my wife had actually fallen asleep! > - -standing behind Jeff and Nick isn't the easiest way to view a show > if one is a relative, well, dwarf Hey, it could have been Jeff and *Chris* y'know! > - -the bassist was perfectly locked to the drummer, though he didn't > contribute much harmonically to the music He didn't appear to contribute much of anything -- even when given the chance to solo during Robyn's improv. On the other hand, he didn't fuck anything up either. > - -I thought Kim's hair looked great. Yes, Kimberleys' hair is amazing (- I wish I had even *half* of it!) Eddie: > didn't work out very well.> > > to the contrary! okay, there were a few problems; mostly having to > do with having to sit at two separate tables, being served beverages > one at a time, not having our order taken for a good forty-five > minutes -- There's something about Fegs and IHOPS... when Susan flew out for a Robyn show in SF a couple of years ago, she and I ended up at the local IHOP. We were convinced that the guy at the next table had died! After we'd sat there talking for an hour or so, a waitress actually brought him some food - apparently paying no attention to the fact that he had keeled over - it was five or ten minutes after that he miraculously revived. Eb: > They probably left by the secret exit. You slide down a pole, plunge > face-first down a long winding tube and pop out in front of Tower > Records, up on Sunset Boulevard. I've tried this route a couple of > times, but I'm not sure I'd do it again because it chafes something > awful. Looks like Professor Fane's subliminal-neuro-surreality-enhancement transmitter is working! Heh. Ethyl Ketone: > While I think Bitches Brew is one of my faves, I fully admit to being > one of those mid-70s types who fell in love with fusion at the tender > age of 17 so of course Bitches Brew holds a special place. However, > Sketches in Spain, In a Silent Way , Kind of Blue and Birth of the > Cool are all excellent. [...] Hey Carrie, we must share the same jazz gene - a bit like Gloster and Dignan share the same hair gene... Oh, yeah. Happy Birthday Sidney! And to all non-veggie American Fegs: Happy tryptophan day tomorrow! ~N Now forming: my new band, "The Terrified Lobsters". - -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds, and the pessimist knows it." - J. Robert Oppenheimer, February 1951 The best of all possible Fegs are here: http://www.njaz.com/fegfotos ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:38:22 -0800 (PST) From: Vivien Lyon Subject: ENOUGH WITH THE VULGARITY!!!....oh, wait...uh.... - --- Eb wrote: > I can appreciate the term, but...Joan and Shania? I dunno. Hell, they > aren't even "rock." How about Cuntney Love? >Though again, most of the stuff Woj puddles himself over is pop > or folk, rather than rock.... No no no... the term is constructed parallel to the term 'cock-rock,' but the two types of music are very very different. It's meant to signify the way in which a woman masturbates musically, which is of course different from the way most men masturbate musically. Jeme's gonna beat me up for suggesting these sex-determined differences, but I'd like to remind him that, far from rejecting the theory of 'cunt-rock,' he enthusiastically endorsed the idea that some music can be grouped under this heading. I'd also like to point out that men can produce cunt-rock, and that Courtney Love comes very close to producing cock-rock. Vivien ps- you know what they say: Females are from Omicron Persei 7, males are from Omicorn Persei 9. pps- Eb, I object strenuously to your subject line. Call me a prude, call me a hypocrite, but don't ever ever call me 'vulvian' again. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:47:41 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Re: ENOUGH WITH THE VULVARITY!!!....oh, wait...uh.... >pps- Eb, I object strenuously to your subject line. Call me a prude, call >me a hypocrite, but don't ever ever call me 'vulvian' again. How about just "Vulv," then? Eb, under the impression that Vu...er...Viv "gets a lot of mileage out of being a female" herself ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:06:18 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Dwarf Subject: Re: Come in number 26! ...and other flotsam. Crazy Unca' Nick wrote: >Senor Gloster sed: >>standing behind Jeff and Nick isn't the easiest way to >>view a show if one is a relative, well, dwarf > > Hey, it could have been Jeff and *Chris* y'know! plus, i WAS sitting part of the time to keep my feet from completely rebelling!! ===== "America's greatest natural resource, still, to this day, is the moron" --Martin Mull __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:07:08 -0800 From: "Crazy Unca' Nick" Subject: BayardBase =b+: > Robynbase has been updated! > oh-- and me! I put all the bits and bites together! Praise me like > you should. You are a veritable demigod, sir! I wonder, however, how it is that you are still missing so many lyrics when Jeme and co. only recently went through an exhaustive and anal lyric assemblage exercise??? May I prod him for you now, oh mighty one? ~N - -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "For every human problem, there is a neat, plain solution - and it is always wrong." - H. L. Mencken More wrong answers here: http://www.njaz.com/fegfotos ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:17:55 -0800 (PST) From: Vivien Lyon Subject: You break it, you buy it. - --- dmw wrote: > what, and i'm not? offended, me. Okay, you too. > i think what's most suspect here is the notion of getting "a lot of > mileage out of being a female." in music biz terms this is pretty hard > to > defend; it's still vastly easier for musicians to attract label > interest, > club gigs, etc. if they're *not* female. I realized after I posted this that I should have written 'A lot of _lyrical_ mileage out of being a female.' Sure, women's stories are valid, and underrepresented, but I hate music that seems to be made by women *for women* exclusively. I think Ani Defranco qualifies for the subcategory not because she's whiny (au contraire), but because her fans have 'somehow' gotten the notion that men shouldn't be allowed at her concerts, that she betrayed them by having a relationship with a man, etc. Surely these absurdly female-centric notions didn't spring into being on their own- they may in fact have been encouraged by some element of Ani's musical product. > i don't think that female musicians should get some sort of slack, > automatic extra points in record reviews or any rot like that. i think > music should be judged by the same standards regardless of the gender of > its creators. (ultimately, i think it's patronizing and insulting to do > otherwise) agreed. > i won't say that doesn't happen (i even did it once, years ago in a > careless stupid moment), but i don't really see adopting deragatory > speech > as a useful way to discourage the practice, and i don't see that ms. > morrisette, amos, etc. are to blame for the way the media does or > doesn't > respond to their work. First, I don't consider the word any more derogatory than the word cock. 'Cunt-rock' is only derogatory in that it's a criticism of a certain type of expression that I find simplistic and degrading (as if all women have the same experiences). I won't deny that I chose the word in part because I find it amusing that some people are offended by it- but I chose it primarily because it starts with c, has four letters, and refers to the genitalia. Secondly, to defend all music by females (even if some of it is bad) simply because they're females and they've been traditionally kept down by the Man is just protectionism. Some musicians deserve to be criticized, *even though* they are women. Thirdly, this isn't a serious critique of these artists, some of whom I don't even mind that much. It's more on the level of light-hearted fun-poking. > (using the word "cunt" as a term of empowerment is an entirely different > matter, but that really doesn't seem to be what you're doing) Like I said, the word 'cunt' is unnecessarily loaded. I don't find it offensive or laudable. Vivien I can't believe I'm defending a lame joke. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 16:23:19 -0800 (PST) From: Vivien Lyon Subject: mileage may vary - --- Eb wrote: > Eb, under the impression that Vu...er...Viv "gets a lot of mileage out > of > being a female" herself No, I think you get a lot of mileage out of my being a female. Vivien __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:32:17 -0600 From: hal brandt Subject: Re: Skip and a Drake Bayard wrote: > (Now can anyone remind me > what Drake song Robyn played at the Nick Drake remembrance gig earlier > this year?) Songs, actually, as in two of them! Pink Moon and River Man. /hal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 01:25:43 -0800 From: "Kim Ranocchia" Subject: Departure Lounge at the Largo 11/23 Just like last night's Hitchcock show at the Mint, they only played for = about an hour (hope that doesn't start to be a trend--short shows); but = the sound was really good. No Robin or Kimberley (or Grant Lee = Phillips).=20 Marc mholden666@earthlink.net=20 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 19:44:08 EST From: MARKEEFE@aol.com Subject: Re: sorry, not buying it In a message dated 11/24/99 3:25:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, dmw@radix.net writes: << snide p.s.: difranco may be many things, but "whiny" i find hard to credit. ever actually listened to one of her records? >> Maybe it's just that, in terms of a quick analysis of vocal styling, "whiny" is in the same ballpark as "nasal and snarling." Personally, on a gut-reaction level, Ani Difranco's vocals bug me almost as much as do Alanis Morissette's (the latter evoking a "quick, for the love of god, turn the station!!" response). I can definitely appreciate that Difranco has more to say than Morissette (who just sounds whiny to me, too), but both singers have a similar grating effect on my nerves. Also, at its heart, a protest song is sort of similar to just plain out bitching . . . only there's usually some good social cause backing up a protest song. - ------Michael K., old school cunt-rocker (Kate Bush kicks ass!!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 19:56:30 -0500 (EST) From: dmw Subject: Re: You break it, you buy it. On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Vivien Lyon wrote: > --- dmw wrote: > > what, and i'm not? offended, me. > > Okay, you too. thanks. > I realized after I posted this that I should have written 'A lot of > _lyrical_ mileage out of being a female.' Sure, women's stories are valid, > and underrepresented, but I hate music that seems to be made by women *for > women* exclusively. fair enough. i'd like to fess up to missing the whole big joke about comparitive masturbatory behaviors vs. "cock rock." > I think Ani Defranco qualifies for the subcategory not > because she's whiny (au contraire), but because her fans have 'somehow' > gotten the notion that men shouldn't be allowed at her concerts, that she > betrayed them by having a relationship with a man, etc. Surely these > absurdly female-centric notions didn't spring into being on their own- > they may in fact have been encouraged by some element of Ani's musical > product. hmmm... difranco has expressed a lot of frustration with that herself though -- hell, she wrote nearly half an album out it! i also was never made to feel unwelcome fans at one of her shows, either, but maybe that's just because i'm dense. > First, I don't consider the word any more derogatory than the word cock. > 'Cunt-rock' is only derogatory in that it's a criticism of a certain type > of expression that I find simplistic and degrading (as if all women have > the same experiences). an excellent point. > Secondly, to defend all music by females (even if some of it is bad) > simply because they're females and they've been traditionally kept down by > the Man is just protectionism. Some musicians deserve to be criticized, > *even though* they are women. another excellent point. > Like I said, the word 'cunt' is unnecessarily loaded. I don't find it > offensive or laudable. check. now that i understand you better, i disagree with you much less. also, although it's unfair of me, i can't be certain that my danderup reaction was entirely untainted by my response to an article about "clitpop" that got forwarded to me a month or so ago. sorry. shit, it's eight o clock! i think i'll go home. - -- d. - - oh no, you've just read mail from doug = dmw@radix.net - get yr pathos - - www.pathetic-caverns.com -- books, flicks, tunes, etc. = reviews - - www.fecklessbeast.com -- angst, guilt, fear, betrayal! = guitar pop ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V8 #440 *******************************