From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V8 #367 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Tuesday, September 28 1999 Volume 08 : Number 367 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Eb and Drew, sitting in a tape-tree [Eb ] UK Tour [HAMISH_SIMPSON@HP-UnitedKingdom-om4.om.hp.com] Re: Weenieism red alert [Stewart Russell 3295 Analyst_Programmer ] from randi - more rasputina - no flaming - got a fever 'bout 105 ["*twofa] Re: sometimes I wish I were a pretty goth ["Andrew D. Simchik" ] Re: Ye Squires!!!! God's hooks! Yegads! [lj lindhurst ] Re: from randi - more rasputina - no flaming - got a fever 'bout 105 [Cap] Re: sometimes I wish I were a pretty goth [Capuchin Subject: Re: Eb and Drew, sitting in a tape-tree >This is not a flame, because I'm not actually annoyed or >concerned about wasted bandwidth, but has anyone else >noticed that Eb and Drew are engaged in the most >spectacularly, numbingly boring argument in fegmaniax >history? (and I go back a long, long time, in my quiet way) I'm >including in my assessment tangents involving Terrence and >the Monkees. Did you read the recent thread, where folks were counting how many albums RH has released and debating their differing answers? Eb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 08:59:11 +0100 From: HAMISH_SIMPSON@HP-UnitedKingdom-om4.om.hp.com Subject: UK Tour Hey fegs, Has anyone been to any of the UK dates and have any info on what the show foarmat is (support, backing band, etc.)? I haven't seen anything mentioned although I haven't been reading avidly lately. I'm off to the Glasgow date on Thursday so I'll pass on some opinions after then. Feg on! Hamish ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 10:24:54 +0100 (BST) From: Stewart Russell 3295 Analyst_Programmer Subject: Re: Weenieism red alert >>>>> "Eb" == Eb writes: Eb> PS They also had a used copy of Perspex Island, for those of Eb> you keeping track. ;) PI has gone remaindered again in the UK. It's now the equivalent of $3, new. Stewart ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:28:50 +0100 (BST) From: toby Subject: Dingwalls, Winchester, Cambridge Belated comments on the Dingwalls gig: good, but not brilliant. I thought the gig suffered quite a lot from the lack of talking between songs, and I'm also not too big a fan of the "full band" thing. My other gripe is that "Clean Steve" (never one of my favourites) suffered quite a lot from missing all the amusing fast-talking bits. Having said that, She Doesn't Exist and Listening To The Higsons were both fantastic. Trivia: he mentioned that it was his daughter's first night at university. My parents went to the Winchester gig, and really enjoyed it. According to them, he played Mexican God, 1974, Queen Of Eyes, Winchester, Guildford, Devil Mask, Gene Hackman, and other things which I've forgotten. Onto Cambridge last night: great gig, the best I've seen him play. The first half of the gig was Robyn solo, and for the 2nd half he was joined by Kim. The Portland Arms is a *very* small venue, but I think there were over a hundred people there. I didn't write the setlist down (I was standing about a foot away from Robyn, so it would have seemed a bit rude), but he started with Mexican God followed by I Something You, and the set included 1974, Devil Mask, Birds In Perspex, Queen Of Eyes, Madonna of the Wasps, Glass Hotel, Cheese Alarm, Sally Was A Legend, Cynthia Mask, Beautiful Girl, Surgery and a song which, to my shame, I didn't recognise - he introduced it as being the first time he'd played it in Britain, and it started (I think) with the line "I wish I liked you" and continued with a stream of abuse; the word "nothing cropped up quite a bit, perhaps as "I owe you nothing". What was this? The last two songs of the main set were You and Oblivion and Insanely Jealous, both of which featured lengthy guitar solos (OK, duos) and were quite excellent. The encore consisted of I Often Dream Of Trains, Beautiful Queen (with Terry Edwards on sax, and "Lee Dean"(?) on tambourine - the Scapegoats' drummer couldn't be found, so Robyn hauled her out of the audience) and The Speed Of Things (played by just Robyn). Trivia watchers: Robyn was wearing a plain black t-shirt, black boots (not DMs), and trousers with pictures of plants on. The socket on his electric stopped working, so he had to borrow Terry Edwards' stratocaster. I can't remember much of what he said, but he did give a speech on how all his songs were very literal, and meant exactly what they said. Oh, and I found someone who taped the gig (though his tape ran out in the encore - the gig was 1hr 45m long). toby ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 06:34:54 -0400 From: "*twofangs..aka..randi*" Subject: from randi - more rasputina - no flaming - got a fever 'bout 105 >> Randi said of Rasputina's *image* - in reaction to Drew & Eb & the whole 'goth' >> thread: >> These girls are sweet. >> They are not pretentious ... they certainly never acted >> that way with me >> or my crew ... > said Drew: > I'm glad to know they come across in person as they do > on record. As I said previously, I'm not familiar with Rasputina's music, so it's indeed nice to know their personalities and recordings are in sync.. >> also said rand: >> Was one of the girls in the band in tears because of how >> everyone wanted >> to make them fit into some category / marketing plan - >> Yes. > asked Drew > Would this be "The Olde Headboard"? You are correct sir. > mentioned drew: > They certainly > sounded on the second album as if they'd been pushed > to add more Mansonite elements to their music. > I can see how > that would be upsetting and irritating. Yes - you are again correct sir. >> On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, randi wrote: >> It's the oldest adage in the book - ;-} >> "Don't judge a book by it's cover" > said Jeme - who's lovely s/o is Vivien :-} > Shit. I didn't see that adage. I threw that volume out because the title > and art made me think it didn't have anything valuable inside. > Fuck. Okay, whoa. Very oversensitive hospital girl is now crying because she is interpreting the above quote as is. ... judging your quote by 'it's cover.' ... not feeling good vibes ... definitely feeling mortified ... So, according to Jeme's 'philosophy' I get 'thrown out' because of my name and what I do; for he sees nothing valuable inside? Do I accept Jeme's "adage" - thus making me something without value? Gee - if I'm so vacuous and valueless - maybe I should just let the doctors operate ... - - 80% chance of no more Randi on the feg-list, no more Randi with her friends, no more Randi to bug Jeme ... Please don't 'flame me' for my opinion ... even if said opinion means nothing to you. I trying desperately *not* to die, but heck, why bother? Valueless. Funny, all I really was trying do was throw some perspective into the mix - especially 'cause it's something I'm familiar with - in this case a video I produced for some cello players who call themselves Rasputina. Now I wish I'd never posted. I so wish I hadn't posted. Should have just emailed Drew. {if you really like the band so much Drew - let me know - we all had a blast on the video shoot - I'll send you some stories as soon as I can have a nurse's computer for more than five minutes.} 'My bad' I guess Jeme - I must have thrown out a volume as well. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > the amazingly kind brian huddell wondered: > WHY is randi having trouble getting feg digests? Would > the problem be solved by my (or someone else's) simply > forwarding them? Oh Brian - that's so sweet of you to offer. Last hospital stay I had a friend's laptop. This time I don't - and no one 'prints' the digest out for me. Once in a while a nurse will let me use her/his computer ... otherwise ... Tim prints out email for me that says "for randi" in the subject header. Thanks Brian. I needed that hug. fading back into oblivion ... ps - why the "shit" and "fuck"? pps - why pick on me? guess my simplistic form of logic makes me easy pickins' > ppps - from chris gross: > Big thanks to Randi and Drew for defending Rasputina in my absence! I hope I helped - don't think Jeme thinks so ... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 06:56:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Andrew D. Simchik" Subject: Re: sometimes I wish I were a pretty goth - --- Capuchin wrote: > > On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Andrew D. Simchik wrote: > > They're as "dark" and "gothic" as John Waters. > > John Waters is campy Yes. Goth, as a rule, is not. > and dark Polyester, yes, probably Pink Flamingos, but Hairspray? Pecker? Cry Baby? > and theatrical You (generic) keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. > and uses > characters that are > self-obsessed Every one? > and unoriginally inspired. You have a point -- casting Iggy Pop as himself? > Sounds pretty close to the goth ethic. No, but thank you for playing. Let's see how much you wagered...ohhhhh. I'm sorry. > PS. This comes close to my problem with the whole idea > of the SCA. It doesn't sound like you know much more about "the whole idea of the SCA" than you know about goth or John Waters. > Society for Creative Anachronism? If it's anachronistic, > then it's > already been created... how creative can you be > regurgitating the past? "Anachronism" just means that you're putting modern elements into historical settings or, in the case of the SCA, historical elements into modern settings. > Invent something, ok? Creativity isn't necessarily about invention. Often -- usually, in fact -- it's about synthesis, reorganization, or recombination. Or just plain creation, as in creating medieval knickknacks or outfits. Or recreation, as in making up your own "clans" and having a ball whacking the hell out of each other using PVC pipe. I'm not in the SCA, but some of my friends are. So what little *I* know about it I hear from them. You may see them all as a bunch of Tolkien-addicted losers but they certainly seem to be having more fun with more interesting hobbies than mine. > PPS. And what is it with folks that use > faux-self-loathing to mask their > perceived superiority which stems from their deep-seeded > self-loathing? If you're asking about me, you might as well use my name in the question. As for the answer, I have no idea. If I knew "what is it with [me]" I'd really be sitting pretty. What is it with you? Drew ===== Andrew D. Simchik, schnopia@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 07:15:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "Andrew D. Simchik" Subject: Re: virgins & whores (0% LJ content) - --- Eb wrote: > Drew with Eyeliner: > >Come on. Make your argument already. You're very > reluctant > >to define "goth" in your own terms, which makes it > impossible > >to discuss this with you. > > Attitude. Ambience. Production. Arrangements. Attitude. > Image. Fanbase. That's not an argument. It's not even a set of criteria. It's a list of dimensions on which to establish criteria. So I'll assume that your argument is something like "band x is goth because it resembles baseline band y [some undisputed, established, unquestionably goth band we can use as a reference] in these six characteristics." Even if you were to define these characteristics, or at least to name a band having them and explain what they are for that particular band, we'd still find that our disagreement stems from the degree of resemblance we'd be asking for. (And perhaps also from whether "attitude" is one characteristic or two.) We're into "yes, they are" and "no, they're not" territory, which I understand is all the rage as a topic of discussion over on alt.gothic. So I'd agree with you that Rasputina are goth, but not that they are typically so. Their attitude is different from your typical goth band (incorporating humor and irony, as well as a balanced sensitivity where your average goth is either hypersensitive or unfeeling). On the other five dimensions I think they'd be close enough. And for the rest of the bands we've been discussing, I think it breaks down from there. That's assuming that I would accept your dimensions as definitive. I wouldn't; there's nothing at all in there about lyrical content, emotional content, or musical content (and non-goth genre affiliation). And "fan base" is tricky. It assumes a sizeable group whose tastes are more or less homogeneous, because otherwise you're talking about folks like you and me who like Nick Cave and Sean O'Hagan. That group exists, and its tastes are very narrow indeed. > >Actually, I think you might like the VWC if you tried > them. Seriously! > > I listened to five VWC soundclips on the CDNow site, one > of them a cover of > a standard Goth reference point, Kurt Weill. And what a macabre cover it is! > Yes, there's > a chance that I > could like this band, although I have a feeling that the > limp singing would > render me indifferent in the end. I had a lot of trouble with that at first, but as with Rufus Wainwright, the perseverance paid off. > >website). They agree with all the other reviews I > tracked down -- that > >the reference points here are more Beach Boys than > Bauhaus. > > I'd agree with that. But you did say "more" Beach Boys > than Bauhaus, > without ruling Bauhaus out completely. On the basis of my conversations with 1/3 of the band, I'd feel secure in ruling out Bauhaus completely if you're going to split hairs. > Also, the band > clearly seems to have > the cold, dreamy, layered production which Goth adherents > crave. Oh, is that what they crave? I thought it was depressing music with melodramatic, humorless lyrics. And all this time it was the *production* they were after! Well, hell, do I have a crossover pitch for Britney Spears. Drew ===== Andrew D. Simchik, schnopia@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 07:40:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "Andrew D. Simchik" Subject: Re: from randi - more rasputina - no flaming - got a fever 'bout 105 - --- "*twofangs..aka..randi*" wrote: > > said Drew: > > I'm glad to know they come across in person as they do > > on record. > > As I said previously, I'm not familiar with Rasputina's > music, > so it's indeed nice to know their personalities and > recordings > are in sync.. There does seem to be some debate about that, but I think that's the case. > > asked Drew > > Would this be "The Olde Headboard"? > > You are correct sir. My compliments, then -- well done! > > Shit. I didn't see that adage. I threw that volume > out because the > title > > and art made me think it didn't have anything valuable > inside. > > Fuck. > > Okay, whoa. > > Very oversensitive hospital girl is now crying because > she is interpreting the above quote as is. Oh, ignore him; I've got all your albums. But seriously: My reading was that he was referring to the "book" in which that adage is the oldest adage. I didn't think he was talking about you or your post. It sounded like a joke to me. > Now I wish I'd never posted. I'm very glad you did. > {if you really like the band so much Drew - let me know - > we all had a > blast on the video shoot - I'll send you some stories > as soon as I can have a nurse's computer for more than > five minutes.} I would be happy to hear any and all stories you might be willing and up to sending me, but no need to trouble the nurses or yourself unduly. :) Drew ===== Andrew D. Simchik, schnopia@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:19:18 -0400 From: The Great Quail Subject: Ye Squires!!!! God's hooks! Yegads! Drew goths: >I'm not in the SCA, but some of my friends are. So what >little *I* know about it I hear from them. You may see >them all as a bunch of Tolkien-addicted losers but they >certainly seem to be having more fun with more interesting >hobbies than mine. Well, I spent two years in the SCA, mostly getting the shit whacked out of me with aforementioned PVC pipe. I dropped out primarily because many of the folk in the SCA are really really into the whole "violence as a solution to problems" thing, which kind of startled me. I was actually expecting more Tolkien-addicted geeks, but what I got were large men who really enjoyed working out their anger (anger perhaps derived from long-standing anxiety over that missing issue of "Radioactive Man" they can never find to complete their collection) in a ridged field of brute power and implied violence. Really, it was a lot of lunk-headededness, more than I would have thought. "You insulted me? How dare you!" And "I am bigger and tougher and therefore more powerful and mightier than you are, boast boast brag brag. . . ." Arrrghh! Nothing is worse than geeks elevated to the status of bullies. There was also the strain of VERY VERY annoying Purists, who would constantly harp on you for not being "period" enough. "That kilt is three inches too long . . . not very period." Arrrgh! Neither is fucking DUCT TAPE, moron!!!! But to be fair, that was only a certain type of bean-counting weenie, and they annoyed most everyone else as much as me. But nevertheless, I find that the fantasy/medieval crowd really does have a thing for pointless weenieistic accuracy and testosterone-laden one-upping pissing contests. "I am the toughest knight in the Land, and I can kick your ass." "Oho! Well *I'm* a sapper, so don't fall asleep tonight, or I'll tunnel into your yurt and turn you into a pincushion!" "Oho! But I bury punji sticks twelve feet deep around me every night!" "Aha! Punji sticks? Well my knife is Japanese steel, folded sixteen million times by an ancient Samurai craftsman, Manos of the Torgo Clan!" And so on. . . . Oh, by the way, I joined for the sex. SCA women are notoriously loose. (Of course, they were all sleeping with the men who have the longest, hardest PVC pipes, though. Sigh.) - --Sir Alain MacBran O'Quailie, squire & alchemist to the Court of the White Rose PS: This is not to disparage the whole SCA thing -- I met some wonderful and noble people, and I had a lot of fun. Perhaps my clan was just skewed. PPS: Those who laugh at the SCA should bear in mind that the US Militarty lists them as a paramilitary organization, and places them with the Boy Scouts and the NRA as useful organizations to call up for support in the event of a national security crisis. Like, perhaps, an invasion of Lombards. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Great Quail, Keeper of the Libyrinth: http://www.libyrinth.com "Countlessness of livestories have netherfallen by this plage, flick as flowflakes, litters from aloft, like a waast wizzard all of whirlworlds. Now are all tombed to the mound, isges to isges, erde from erde . . . (Stoop) if you are abcedminded, to this claybook, what curious of signs (please stoop) in this allaphbed! Can you rede (since We and Thou had it out already) its world? . . . Speak to us of Emailia!" --James Joyce, Finnegans Wake ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:25:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: emo! the problem is solved! K-Tle has defined 'emo' for us! http://www.ktel.com/cgi-bin/productdetail.pl? Session=419918194&Nr=2277564352000 a ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:49:32 -0400 From: lj lindhurst Subject: Re: Ye Squires!!!! God's hooks! Yegads! >Oh, by the way, I joined for the sex. SCA women are notoriously >loose. (Of course, they were all sleeping with the men who have the >longest, hardest PVC pipes, though. Sigh.) Well, to quote Eb: "even role-playing weenies can manage to get laid." - --Your Dung-Smeared Virgin Mary ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 09:12:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: from randi - more rasputina - no flaming - got a fever 'bout 105 On Tue, 28 Sep 1999, *twofangs..aka..randi* wrote: > > said Jeme - who's lovely s/o is Vivien :-} > > Shit. I didn't see that adage. I threw that volume out because the title > > and art made me think it didn't have anything valuable inside. > > Fuck. > Okay, whoa. > Very oversensitive hospital girl is now crying because > she is interpreting the above quote as is. > ... judging your quote by 'it's cover.' > ... not feeling good vibes ... definitely feeling mortified ... > So, according to Jeme's 'philosophy' I get 'thrown out' because > of my name and what I do; for he sees nothing valuable inside? > Do I accept Jeme's "adage" - thus making me something without value? > Gee - if I'm so vacuous and valueless - maybe I should just let the > doctors operate ... > - 80% chance of no more Randi on the feg-list, > no more Randi with her friends, > no more Randi to bug Jeme ... > Please don't 'flame me' for my opinion ... even if said opinion means > nothing to you. > I trying desperately *not* to die, but heck, why bother? > Valueless. > Funny, all I really was trying do was throw some perspective into the > mix - especially 'cause it's something I'm familiar with - in this > case a video I produced for some cello players who call themselves > Rasputina. Now I wish I'd never posted. > I so wish I hadn't posted. > Should have just emailed Drew. > 'My bad' I guess Jeme - I must have thrown out a volume as well. ACK NO!!! I was just making a joke... see, you said "The oldest adage in the book" and I was saying that "the book" got thrown out by me because I judged it by its cover... because I hadn't opened it yet and didn't know that you're not supposed to do that. Get it? Well, I thought it was funny. Oh dear no. I was ... damn. I just reread your post because I couldn't figure out what you meant... and now I see that you think I threw out YOUR POST, which isn't the case at all... I read it. That's how I replied. I just meant that I threw out the volume that is 'the book' containing old adages (of which the oldest is the one that says you don't judge books by their covers). Hoo boy. Now who's mortified? J. - -- ________________________________________________________ J A Brelin Capuchin ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 09:30:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: sometimes I wish I were a pretty goth On Tue, 28 Sep 1999, Andrew D. Simchik wrote: > --- Capuchin wrote: > > On Mon, 27 Sep 1999, Andrew D. Simchik wrote: > > > They're as "dark" and "gothic" as John Waters. > > John Waters is campy > Yes. Goth, as a rule, is not. No? Main Entry: 3camp Function: noun Etymology: origin unknown Date: circa 1909 1 : exaggerated effeminate mannerisms exhibited especially by homosexuals 2 : a homosexual displaying camp 3 : something so outrageously artificial, affected, inappropriate, or out-of-date as to be considered amusing 4 : something self-consciously exaggerated or theatrical Goth doesn't fit into some of these most of the time? > > and dark > Polyester, yes, probably Pink Flamingos, but > Hairspray? Pecker? Cry Baby? I haven't seen Hairspray, but Pecker and Cry Baby are both very dark. They're celebrations of dysfunction and creepiness. > > and theatrical > You (generic) keep using that word. I don't > think it means what you think it means. Ugh. Main Entry: 1theatrical Pronunciation: thE-'a-tri-k&l Variant(s): also theatric /-trik/ Function: adjective Date: 1558 1 : of or relating to the theater or the presentation of plays 2 : marked by pretense or artificiality of emotion 3 a : HISTRIONIC b : marked by extravagant display or exhibitionism Goth, to me, is all about exhibitionism. It's about being seen in your finest goth duds and doing all the right goth things. It's an affected lifestyle... swallowed hook, line, and cetera. > > and uses > > characters that are > > self-obsessed > Every one? Of course not every one. > > and unoriginally inspired. > You have a point -- casting Iggy Pop as himself? I'm not saying that the invention of the characters and their juxtaposition with each other and their environment was not originally inspired. I'm saying that the characters themselves live lives that follow very easy to see boundaries. They are predictable in taste and (more often than not) motive. > > Sounds pretty close to the goth ethic. > No, but thank you for playing. Let's see how much > you wagered...ohhhhh. I'm sorry. How very Eb of you. > > PS. This comes close to my problem with the whole idea > > of the SCA. > It doesn't sound like you know much more about "the > whole idea of the SCA" than you know about goth or > John Waters. I was a theater major before switching to mathematics. I got my fill of all three over and over and over. In high school, I even attended a few SCA events with friends that were Quite Involved. > > Society for Creative Anachronism? If it's anachronistic, then it' > > already been created... how creative can you be regurgitating the > > past? > "Anachronism" just means that you're putting modern elements into > historical settings or, in the case of the SCA, historical elements > into modern settings. I know what "anachronism" means... but that's cool. The idea there is to consistently recreate some historical context around your person. Authentic replication denies creativity. And anyway, I was really just ranting. > > Invent something, ok? > Creativity isn't necessarily about invention. Often -- > usually, in fact -- it's about synthesis, reorganization, > or recombination. Or just plain creation, as in creating > medieval knickknacks or outfits. Or recreation, as in > making up your own "clans" and having a ball whacking the > hell out of each other using PVC pipe. Recreation, in the modern sense, doesn't require creativity. And I'd buy the argument about creating knickknacks and clothing and stuff if I didn't see a whole lot more buying than trading amongst SCA folks. > I'm not in the SCA, but some of my friends are. So what > little *I* know about it I hear from them. You may see > them all as a bunch of Tolkien-addicted losers but they > certainly seem to be having more fun with more interesting > hobbies than mine. That's kind of your fault, isn't it? But seriously, I had friends who were involved in the SCA, but either they grew out of it or I grew out of them. It was just a comment in a PS totally unrelated to either John Waters or gothkids. > > PPS. And what is it with folks that use faux-self-loathing to mask > > their perceived superiority which stems from their deep-seeded > > self-loathing? > If you're asking about me, you might as well use my > name in the question. I hope you're kidding. > As for the answer, I have no idea. If I knew "what is it with [me]" > I'd really be sitting pretty. What is it with you? I guess you're not. It was a rhetorical question inspired by a coworker that has been bugging the shit out of me for the past four or five days. But, you know, if it causes introspection, run with it. J. - -- ________________________________________________________ J A Brelin Capuchin ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 12:52:08 -0400 From: "*twofangs..aka..randi*" Subject: from tim - re: rasputina & randi Thanks Jeme - I read Randi your email over the phone. When she's sick - she has trouble distinguishing sarcasm from actual jokes - - - because everything around here is frighteningly real. > jeme wrote > I was just making a joke... see, you said "The oldest adage in the book" > and I was saying that "the book" got thrown out by me because I judged it > by its cover... because I hadn't opened it yet and didn't know that you're > not supposed to do that. "That does make sense," says Randi on the phone, "yeah, it is kinda witty - I should have realized that - especially 'cause he's [jeme] a good writer - tell him maybe the swearing that threw me off." > jeme > I just meant that I threw out > the volume that is 'the book' containing old adages (of which the oldest > is the one that says you don't judge books by their covers). > Hoo boy. Now who's mortified? Probably Randi - she gets embarrassed easily. Her voice sounds - well - as she says - "colour me embarrassed" > jeme > I see that you think I threw out YOUR POST, (randi's) "No not at all", says Randi, "I thought he was making fun of my use of a simplistic cliché, but I know he would have read my whole post before replying." Okay - back to work. tjf ps - hi to vivien & jeme from randi ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 10:23:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "Andrew D. Simchik" Subject: Re: sometimes I wish I were a pretty goth - --- Capuchin wrote: > > On Tue, 28 Sep 1999, Andrew D. Simchik wrote: > > --- Capuchin wrote: > > > John Waters is campy > > Yes. Goth, as a rule, is not. > > No? No. > Main Entry: 3camp > Function: noun > Etymology: origin unknown > Date: circa 1909 > 1 : exaggerated effeminate mannerisms exhibited > especially by homosexuals > 2 : a homosexual displaying camp > 3 : something so outrageously artificial, affected, > inappropriate, or > out-of-date as to be considered amusing > 4 : something self-consciously exaggerated or theatrical > > Goth doesn't fit into some of these most of the time? Nope. 1 and 2 don't apply. (Honest.) 3 and 4 really rest on this notion of self-consciousness, and most goths I've encountered don't display much of that. The ones that do can be sort of camp with it, but that's really meta-goth and depends on some basic notion of goth they're playing with, that they love and laugh at simultaneously (affectionate parody or satire being as good a definition of camp as anything in that dictionary). Goth is frequently amusing, yes, but it's not undertaken (ha!) as a form of comedy. > > > and dark > > Polyester, yes, probably Pink Flamingos, but > > Hairspray? Pecker? Cry Baby? > > I haven't seen Hairspray, Easily my favorite John Waters film, probably because it was my first. > but Pecker and Cry Baby are > both very dark. > They're celebrations of dysfunction and creepiness. Maybe you read them that way. Pecker in particular is anything *but* a "celebration of dysfunction and creepiness". The New York art critics who bring Pecker to the Big City are the ones who celebrate what they see as dysfunction and creepiness. The reversal at the end invites them and the viewer to reconsider that assessment. It's a blindingly obvious message in a really warm, bright, joyous comedy. It's not dark at all...IMO, of course. Cry Baby is more ambiguous, but again it depends on your point of view. What could be more dysfunctional or creepy than that a capella in sweaters gig Depp and co. disrupt near the beginning? Do you think the movie celebrates that scene? > > > and theatrical > > You (generic) keep using that word. I don't > > think it means what you think it means. > > Ugh. How very Eb of you. > Main Entry: 1theatrical > Pronunciation: thE-'a-tri-k&l > Variant(s): also theatric /-trik/ > Function: adjective > Date: 1558 > 1 : of or relating to the theater or the presentation of > plays theatrical costume> > 2 : marked by pretense or artificiality of emotion > 3 a : HISTRIONIC b : marked by > extravagant display > or exhibitionism > > Goth, to me, is all about exhibitionism. It's about > being seen in your > finest goth duds and doing all the right goth things. > It's an affected > lifestyle... swallowed hook, line, and cetera. I didn't say goth wasn't theatrical. I'm inclined to agree, and to celebrate that. I did say Spats Ransom's voice wasn't theatrical, and I questioned the use of the term to describe John Waters films. I don't think the emotional content there is as simple as "pretense" or "artificiality," and again refer you to camp. > I'm not saying that the invention of the characters and > their > juxtaposition with each other and their environment was > not originally > inspired. I'm saying that the characters themselves live > lives that > follow very easy to see boundaries. They are predictable > in taste and > (more often than not) motive. No question. They're larger-than-life, cartoonish, sketchy representations of outrageous people. If you recall I agreed with you on this point. > > It doesn't sound like you know much more about "the > > whole idea of the SCA" than you know about goth or > > John Waters. > > I was a theater major before switching to mathematics. I > got my fill of > all three over and over and over. In high school, I even > attended a few > SCA events with friends that were Quite Involved. You obviously left all three with very different ideas of what they're all about than I did, then, judging from your perplexing views on Pecker above. > The idea there is to consistently recreate some > historical context around > your person. Authentic replication denies creativity. I disagree. It denies originality, which is different. > And anyway, I was really just ranting. OK. > > Creativity isn't necessarily about invention. Often -- > > usually, in fact -- it's about synthesis, > reorganization, > > or recombination. Or just plain creation, as in > creating > > medieval knickknacks or outfits. Or recreation, as in > > making up your own "clans" and having a ball whacking > the > > hell out of each other using PVC pipe. > > Recreation, in the modern sense, doesn't require > creativity. "Re-creation" was what I had in mind. The PVC remarks muddied that more than I'd intended. > And I'd buy the argument about creating knickknacks and > clothing and stuff > if I didn't see a whole lot more buying than trading > amongst SCA folks. I guess it depends on which particular SCA folks you're talking about. > > little *I* know about it I hear from them. You may see > > them all as a bunch of Tolkien-addicted losers but they > > certainly seem to be having more fun with more > interesting > > hobbies than mine. > > That's kind of your fault, isn't it? Indubitably. > > > PPS. And what is it with folks that use > faux-self-loathing to mask > > > their perceived superiority which stems from their > deep-seeded > > > self-loathing? > > If you're asking about me, you might as well use my > > name in the question. > > I hope you're kidding. I assumed you were referring to my tongue-in-cheek comments about my goth picshah. It seemed to fit. Besides, you should know that simply everything is about ME ME ME. > But, you know, if it causes introspection, run with it. OK! Thanks! Drew ===== Andrew D. Simchik, schnopia@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V8 #367 *******************************