From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V8 #307 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Saturday, August 14 1999 Volume 08 : Number 307 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: Neutral Milk Hotel. No Robyn Hitchcock [The Great Quail ] takin' the Ebait and vomiting it back up [hal brandt ] JfS Review in Sound & Vision [Tom Clark ] Re: RH in Atlanta [hal brandt ] Hmuhs Wide Shot [The Great Quail ] RE: Neutral Milk Hotel. No Robyn Hitchcock ["Partridge, John" ] they're not as good as those other dude's ["Capitalism Blows" Subject: RE: Neutral Milk Hotel. No Robyn Hitchcock John says, >As I've said in the >past, sincerity cancels art. Wow. Wow, wow. John . . . wow. A partridge and a quail couldn't be in deeper disagreement! >By the way, it's worth >noting that like almost *every* post WWII trend in >the arts, confessionalism led to stagnation or >ugliness. Architecture: Bauhaus. Painting: gad don't >get me started. Huh? Started on what? Rothko? Bacon? Warhol? Rosenquist? Johns? I mean, if you don't like post WWII art, just say so, but to characterize it as stagnant or ugly, that's a fairly subjective opinion, and I don't really think it can be supported. You are making fairly broad statements! >Music: John Cage. What? What does John Cage have to do with this? I would hardly call him "confessional." >confessionalism's affect on >poetry was to kill it. So, what -- poetry's been dead since the fifties? Do you really think that? >Well everyone's wired differently. Personally, I find >people's psychological innards as revolting as their >physical viscera. Also, since everyone's innermost >pain, angst, loneliness, self-hate, etc. is on >exactly the same level as everyone else's, I find the >material gets tiresome pretty quickly. I must say, you have some very strong and unusual ideas. I mean, for one, I wouldn't dare to compare my pain to anyone else's -- saying that my personal suffering is on the same level as, say, a burn victim or someone stuck in a Chinese prison for thirty years, well. . . . I am not trying to bait you, or even say that you are wrong. I just find your opinions on art a bit unusual. >I mean *I* could >expose myself as thoroughly as Jeff but a) I am not so >adolescent as to think my pain, angst, etc. is any >more noble or interesting than anyone else's; and b) >my job pays better than his (well maybe not...). But can you express that pain, joy, angst, express it in a way that makes it universal? Or at least express it in a way that makes it interesting to a group of people outside your wife and therapist? I really don't think that's adolescent at all -- though certainly different modes of pain and vehicles of expression are characteristically adolescent. Hm. - --The Great "Would the real Ken please stand up" Quailster +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+ The Great Quail, K.S.C. (riverrun Discordian Society, Kibroth-hattaavah Branch) For fun with postmodern literature, New York vampires, and Fegmania, visit Sarnath: http://www.rpg.net/quail "The people asked, and he brought quails, and satisfied them with the bread of heaven." --Psalms 105:40 (Also see Exodus 16:13 and Numbers 11:31-34 for more starry wisdom) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 18:23:54 EDT From: MARKEEFE@aol.com Subject: Re: singers/art/Ricky Martin In a message dated 8/13/99 2:53:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ultraSusan writ: << >what garbage. I guess that Hitchcock's detachment must be a real breath of >fresh air to you, then. Much more comfy to just sit outside a work of art Hitchcock's detachment wha? You did mean that guy who does "You and Oblivion" and "Insanely Jealous" and "Glass Hotel", right? Or is there some other completely un-emotional guy who goes around impersonating him? Perhaps I just missed a joke here. It seems to be happening a lot lately. >> Maybe you just missed a memo! Eb rails on Robyn's so-called emotional detachment more often than I loosely string together arguments for "concept albums" . . . which we all know is just a thinly veiled attempt to compensate for my infatuations with Marillion, post-Syd-era Pink Floyd, and "OK Computer." [I've found that it cuts down on "new mail" box crowding to just include Eb's retorts within one's own post] Michael K., fitter happier more productive ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:25:02 -0700 (PDT) From: fred is ted Subject: Re: My other Cars a GBV. - --- Bayard wrote: > not to revive the whole religion thing, but I hear > Kansas has outlawed the > teaching of evolution in school. Hmmmmm... Well, at least I, as a transplanted Minnesotan, don't have to wince so much when I hear that a certain governor is hosting the WCWWWCWFF SummerSlam7. Let another state wear the ol' dunce cap. Nyah nyah nyah. Ted "yeah, we get high on music" Kim Deal _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 18:05:54 -0600 From: hal brandt Subject: takin' the Ebait and vomiting it back up Eb wrote: > Eb-baiters like Hal Who's baiting who? /hal ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 17:11:07 -0700 From: bibigellert@earthlink.net Subject: RH in Atlanta Thought I'd send in the set list for Robyn in Atlanta: Gene Hackman Cheese Alarm Dead Wife Yip Song (Switch to Electric-the Jazzmaster) I am not Me Devil Mask Queen of Eyes (with Sebadoh) Listening to the Higsons Clothes-polka dot shirt, light blue trousers Robyn seemed relaxed and in a good mood. He made fun of our Airport: "Oh yeah, Atlanta, concourse B" he spoke in a robot voice to mimic the robotic voice you hear on the transport system at Hartsfield international. He changed a lyric during "Gene Hackman"- "I'll have a cold shower, I'll have a bottle of juice, and when I go outside, I'll have a good excuse" don't know if he's ever used this before or not. He dedicated "Queen of Eyes" for Jefferson, meaning REM's now disgraced ex-manager, Jefferson Holt. Robyn spoke a fair amount, telling stories about the songs mainly, such as explaining who Vera Lynn was in "The Yip Song" and about the scotty dogs. I thought he got a good reception from the I believe sell-out Atlanta crowd. I stayed for Sebadoh, and I liked Lou's songs. I left before the end of the Lips. One of my favorite songs on "Jewels" is "I feel Beautiful" and I noticed today a lovely contrast in the section beginning "Yes, we're alive, at the same time, Like mayflies, like fireflies" both of which, especially the mayflies, have a very short life span-reflecting the idea that once you find your loved one, it seems you have such a short time to spend with them-followed by "I been waiting round Covent Garden for you for centuries, I been hanging round Festival pier for you,honey, for decades" this contrasts so nicely with the preceeding idea-love is timeless-these ideas may seem trite as I spell them out, but the imagery Robyn uses brings them alive in a very untrite way. It just adds a bit more to one of the most uplifting and redemptive songs I've heard Mr. Hitchcock sing. Bibi - ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 18:07:34 -0700 From: "Partridge, John" Subject: RE: Neutral Milk Hotel/singers/art/Ricky Martin > > And regarding John Partridge's comment that "sincerity kills > art"...whew, > what garbage. But I said that with complete sincerity! How can anyone be full of shit if they're sincere? I'm a sensitive person and I have feelings too and they've been hurt because you called my comment garbage and even though it's hard for me to say this in front of everyone I somehow will overcome my fear of vulnerability and tell you how mean it was for you to say that and wish you would just care for me for having the courage to speak honestly and sincerely about something I care a lot about even though I didn't want to say this but felt I had no choice. > I guess that Hitchcock's detachment must be a > real breath of > fresh air to you, then. As I've remarked in the past, Robyn is by far the least detached songwriter I know of and his ability to deliver immense emotional impact, sometimes devestating, sometimes ecstatic, is why I hold him in such high regard. My favorite of his songs affect me in a profound and beautiful way. > Much more comfy to just sit outside a > work of art > and smirk post-modern style, I guess. > I have no idea how, but ... Woo-hoo! I hit a nerve! Dude, *what* are you carrying on about? As I've commented in the past, your critical analysis is generally nuanced and carefully considered but you are being uncharacteristically lazy to equate post-modernism with the assertion that art and sincerity are mutually exclusive. Gentlemanly discourse aside, let me respond to your ad hominem crack in kind: I don't like NMH and I said why so what the hell's your problem? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 21:09:32 EDT From: DDerosa5@aol.com Subject: Momus? spare us... susan two-centsed: I find this -debate- very interesting. As my SO is always saying this about Momus. He's always like "Why would anyone CARE about this shit he sings about? Who's interested?". Hmm. You know Susan, this seems like a fine time for a confession: based upon your ravings, and my understanding of your good taste, I bought a Momus album, Ping Pong. I know it wasnt' your favorite, but it was all they had at Rock records. And, having listened to it, I must say, he's a brillant lyricist, and leaves me totally cold. I'm with Doug on this one. He has, to use an ebism, very mannered vocals, but I'm fine with that--he's very arch, and clever. cool. Some of hus lyrics are among the most ingenious I've ever read. But the music was awful (to me*), and something about his delivery made me want to go into a violent coma. I know it's an oxymoron, but that's how I felt. I wanted to like him, "Space Jews" was certainly a very funny concept, but misanthropy aside, I hate him. I'm sure he's crushed. dave *well, obviously. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 18:25:16 -0800 From: Eb Subject: RE: Neutral Milk Hotel/singers/art/Ricky Martin John: >> And regarding John Partridge's comment that "sincerity kills >> art"...whew, >> what garbage. > >But I said that with complete sincerity! How can anyone be >full of shit if they're sincere? Ridiculous attempt to twist a point, and you know it. >As I've remarked in the past, Robyn is by far the least detached >songwriter I know of Wow...how many others do you know? >Gentlemanly discourse aside, let me respond to your ad hominem >crack in kind: I don't like NMH and I said why so what the >hell's your problem? Hey, *others* blasted you for your anti-NMH sentiments, not me. I just found your more general proclamation about sincerity "cancelling" art appallingly prejudiced and misguided. Eb Upcoming releases: 8/17: Tricky, three Superchunk reissues 8/24: Richard Thompson, "Stigmata" soundtrack (Billy Corgan), Air reissue, Josh Rouse/Kurt Wagner EP, Pere Ubu 8/31: Billy Bragg 9/7: "Morning Becomes Eclectic" compilation, Buzzcocks 9/14: Iggy Pop, "Yellow Submarine" reissue 9/21: Chris Cornell, Stereolab, the Who (BBC Sessions) 9/28: Material 10/5: David Bowie 10/12: Cocteau Twins (BBC Sessions) 10/26: Luna ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 18:40:30 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: RH in Atlanta On 8/13/99 5:11 PM, bibigellert@earthlink.net wrote: >One of my favorite songs on "Jewels" is "I feel Beautiful" and >I noticed today a lovely contrast in the section beginning "Yes, >we're alive, at the same time, Like mayflies, like fireflies" >both of which, especially the mayflies, have a very short life >span-reflecting the idea that once you find your loved one, it >seems you have such a short time to spend with them-followed >by "I been waiting round Covent Garden for you for centuries, >I been hanging round Festival pier for you,honey, for decades" >this contrasts so nicely with the preceeding idea-love is timeless-these >ideas may seem trite as I spell them out, but the imagery Robyn >uses brings them alive in a very untrite way. It just adds a >bit more to one of the most uplifting and redemptive songs I've >heard Mr. Hitchcock sing. Very well said. I think also that the line "we're alive at the same time" reinforces the idea that we wait so long for true love to come along, and IF it ever does it just feels miraculous. Have a nice weekend, - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 18:51:14 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: JfS Review in Sound & Vision The new issue of Stereo Review's Sound & Vision arrived yesterday and it contains a writeup of JfS by one of Robyn's favorite critics, Boston Phoenix writer Brett Milano. He shares the review with Richard Thompson's latest, which he blasts as being the "same old Richard Thompson album" (I'm paraphrasing). He loves JfS though - four stars. I'll see if I can type it up this weekend. - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 19:58:20 -0600 From: hal brandt Subject: Re: RH in Atlanta bibigellert@earthlink.net wrote: > One of my favorite songs on "Jewels" is "I feel Beautiful" and > I noticed today a lovely contrast in the section beginning "Yes, > we're alive, at the same time, Like mayflies, like fireflies" > both of which, especially the mayflies, have a very short life > span-reflecting the idea that once you find your loved one, it > seems you have such a short time to spend with them-followed > by "I been waiting round Covent Garden for you for centuries..." > this contrasts so nicely with the preceeding idea-love is timeless I like this part of the song as well for much the same reasons. I also like that Covent Gardens is a famous London place for buying fruits and vegetables (a recurring Robyn motif). I learned this fact tonight while watching a Hitchcock (Alfred) retrospective in which Hitch is shown at Covent Gardens (in the trailer for "Frenzy".) /hal ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:55:53 -0400 From: The Great Quail Subject: Hmuhs Wide Shot >Eb, who can't belieeeeeve that Quail, Unrepentant King of Arty Excess, >hasn't seen EWS yet This post contains mega-super-duper spoilers. So only read on if you have seen Eyes Wide Shut, or just don't care. La la la . . . Ho hum, spoilers to come. . . . OK. I *loved* the movie. So far I rank it Number Two of the year, preceded only by "The Blair Witch Project." Now, I admit that although I am a big Kubrick fan, I am also an objective Kubrick fan - -- for instance, I can compare "Lolitas" fairly, and I found "Barry Lyndon" a bore. (But that Spartacus? Wow, what a cute butt!) (But not as cute as Eddie Vedder's.) I thought that "Eyes Wide Shut" was totally gripping from start to finish, and actually reminiscent of "The Shining" in the way it kept the psychological tension screwed to the sticking point. In fact, I think the principle genius of Kubrick is that his movies are so unrelentingly visionary, there is nothing random, nothing misplaced; all his films are suffused with a dense and totally unique style that simply hypnotizes me. This *was* a very sexy and erotic film, but most of the eroticism was purely on the psychological level -- something that I think disappointed many of the poor souls who bought tickets expecting to see Tom and Nicole sizzle the screen. They were expecting a Paul Verhoeven thriller, and -- tee hee -- they got a Kubrick film instead! But to say that it was not sexy . . . well, I can't see that at all. The whole film was saturated with a charged eroticism, a sexual energy that manifested in many ways, but preyed primarily upon the mind and imagination. The characters moved through a universe practically defined by sex and power relationships, moving from one encounter to another like sharks gliding through an erotic surface tension. If they stopped moving, this tension was in danger of breaking . . . and then what sets in? Death? Stagnation? Introspection? And Kubrick managed to keep the whole thing afloat, seamlessly weaving together charisma, identity, and Nietzschean will into a vision of sex as an almost vampiric power. As each character interacted with another, I could sense the battle of wills, the subtle shifts in power and relation, the cruelties and kindnesses, the tacit understandings and the sudden epiphanies. Every conversation was like a small struggle to impose will and maintain identity. And Kubrick kept it all in focus, propelling his cast through this increasingly dreamlike world, where reality and fiction were relative terms on sale to the strongest bidder. Indeed, the most delicious irony was that while her struggles took place largely in her mind and his in the real world, his "real world" had a delusionary intensity that sharply contrasted with the harrowing impact of her stark narrations. Two sides of the same coin - -- they had *better* fuck at the end! Anything to release and channel those newly awoken energies -- primal forces that play out beyond the world of logic and conversational dynamics. (Oh! And the *waltz* right after the end! Oh, Stanley, I'll *miss* you!) Now, on to some of my favorite scenes. . . . When they got high -- wow. That whole scene reminded me of Joyce's "The Dead," and that's not praise I would hand out lightly. Here's this man who is so secure in his "knowledge" of his wife, and in a moment of conversation, his whole belief structure is undermined and shifted. And what a conversation! That was such an uncomfortable moment, and you could see it in his eyes -- he was trapped in her world of near-psychotic confusion, never in a million years guessing that she was about to reveal to him how weak and precarious his world is. And this epiphany initiates his own voyage into a world of shifting identities. I was mesmerized by the way he slowly grew aware of his own power, using his identity as a doctor to first define him, then allowing himself to develop into a more predatory being as he slowly sunk out of his real depth. Like I said before, there was something vampiric about it -- you could actually see the power radiating from certain characters, and it was seductive, sensuous, and yet horrible . . . And, well, the orgy scene. . . . I loved that, and I mean even beyond the stunning visuals. In no other film have I seen the erotic impulse so ritualized. This was no mere prostitution, this was sex on a holy scale, a Sadean ritual of temple prostitutes and the submersion of the ego into the matrix of anonymous flesh. So what if they were wearing masks? The mere symbolism of the oral sex was more sinister than the actual act. Otherwise, it would have just been "Plato's Retreat." It was sex made religious -- but I mean truly religious, filled with awe, terror, and power. But . . . but Kubrick is an complex film-maker, and so he also poses the question of "what is real?" Can such a secret society exist, can it have that level of secular power . . . or is it just a sexed-up Masonic lodge, filled with spooky theatrics and hollow threats? You are never given an answer. Just more paradoxes and ironies . . . even the word Fidelio is an irony, given the meaning of the word and the plot of the opera. Other things, too, amazed me. The dialogue, for one -- it was so original, so without cliches, so psychologically devastating; it really captured the feeling of being *in* a complex series of relationships -- family, business, marriage, sex, whatever. It wasn't "talky" and artificial to me at all. It was unrelentingly "real." And Kubrick was not afraid to let the camera linger on faces . . . the whole scene where the clerk is so obviously smitten with Dr. Bill. You can see every emotion, every nuance play across his face. All that being said, I did have a few negative comments. I thought some parts were slow, especially the last conversation between Cruise and Pollock. I also questioned some of the visual effects, and I am still not sure if the awkward theatricality of the "Stop!" and "I'm being followed" scenes really worked in the context of the larger picture. But overall, I thought it was a brilliant film, and I haven't been able to get it out of my mind -- something I can say about all his best films. Anyway, here's to the NC-17 Director's cut! - --Quail, Unrepentant King of Arty Excess (And proud of it!) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Great Quail, Keeper of the Libyrinth: http://www.libyrinth.com "Countlessness of livestories have netherfallen by this plage, flick as flowflakes, litters from aloft, like a waast wizzard all of whirlworlds. Now are all tombed to the mound, isges to isges, erde from erde . . . (Stoop) if you are abcedminded, to this claybook, what curious of signs (please stoop) in this allaphbed! Can you rede (since We and Thou had it out already) its world? . . . Speak to us of Emailia!" --James Joyce, Finnegans Wake ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 19:08:41 -0700 From: "Partridge, John" Subject: RE: Neutral Milk Hotel. No Robyn Hitchcock > >By the way, it's worth > >noting that like almost *every* post WWII trend in > >the arts, confessionalism led to stagnation or > >ugliness. Architecture: Bauhaus. Painting: gad don't > >get me started. > > Huh? Started on what? Rothko? Bacon? Warhol? Rosenquist? Johns? I > mean, if you don't like post WWII art, just say so, but to > characterize it as stagnant or ugly, that's a fairly subjective > opinion, and I don't really think it can be supported. You are making > fairly broad statements! That's fair: I don't like post WWII "art". Rothko and Warhol produced stuff that was fun to look at, really cool stuff, but it wasn't art. However, *most* of what was produced by trained painters after WWII reflected directly or indirectly the horror of war and the even deeper horror of Germany's, Japan's, and Russia's inhumanity. Which is why it's mostly butt-ugly or embarrassed (like the soup can). I think it's stagnant because as of fifty years later, the biggest new style to hit the scene is photo- or hyper- realism. Big whoop. > > >Music: John Cage. > > What? What does John Cage have to do with this? I would hardly call > him "confessional." > John Cage's work was a mockery of music: listen to the audience members rustle, cough, and sneeze; here's what a piano sounds like if you put a hammer and a coke bottle over the strings; here's how painful atonal music can be; etc. I used him as an example of a post WWII trend in the music world that was ugly (you *really* enjoy listening to a prepared piano?) and stagnant (John Adams (who?) is the *big* name in the music world). > >confessionalism's affect on > >poetry was to kill it. > > So, what -- poetry's been dead since the fifties? Do you > really think that? > Before: Shakespeare, Byron, Yeats. After: Ashberry, Plath, Heaney. Not dead, just convulsing. > >Well everyone's wired differently. Personally, I find > >people's psychological innards as revolting as their > >physical viscera. Also, since everyone's innermost > >pain, angst, loneliness, self-hate, etc. is on > >exactly the same level as everyone else's, I find the > >material gets tiresome pretty quickly. > > I must say, you have some very strong and unusual ideas. I mean, for > one, I wouldn't dare to compare my pain to anyone else's -- saying > that my personal suffering is on the same level as, say, a burn > victim or someone stuck in a Chinese prison for thirty years, well. . > . . > I hasten to agree and I have immense sympathy for the people who have suffered unimaginable hardship; my life has been a bed of roses in comparison. *BUT*: just because they suffered more than me doesn't make them an artist, much less a good artist. > I am not trying to bait you, or even say that you are wrong. I just > find your opinions on art a bit unusual. > I recognize I am at the very fringe and I appreciate your kind words. I too am not trying to bait anyone but I do have strong opinions about art and NMH turned out to be an occasion to express them. > >I mean *I* could > >expose myself as thoroughly as Jeff but a) I am not so > >adolescent as to think my pain, angst, etc. is any > >more noble or interesting than anyone else's; and b) > >my job pays better than his (well maybe not...). > > But can you express that pain, joy, angst, express it in a way that > makes it universal? Great question! No I can't and only a really good artist does. But I don't think universality is in itself the acid test of art. > Or at least express it in a way that makes it > interesting to a group of people outside your wife and therapist? I > really don't think that's adolescent at all -- though certainly > different modes of pain and vehicles of expression are > characteristically adolescent. > I agree: making it interesting is not easy, requires great intelligence and artistry, and succeeds or fails independent of how much sincerity is brought to the task. For this listener, Jeff did not succeed at all. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 21:59:36 -0500 From: steve Subject: Gormenghast on BBC From DailySF http//scifi.ign.com BOOKS: Gormenghast Joins the BBC Mervyn Peak's obscure fantasy trilogy to become a four-part miniseries on British television. August 13, 1999 The word from British sci-fi magazine SFX is that Gormenghast, the little-known fantasy trilogy from UK author Mervyn Peake, will be made into a four part miniseries for the BBC. According to the article, a diverse cast including Christopher Lee, Ian Richardson, Zoe Wanamaker, and Stephen Fry will play the many strange parts in the TV adaptation, which is described as a mix of fantasy and "action-packed comedy." The Gormenghast trilogy was first published in the 1940s and 50s. It is set mainly within the confines of Gormenghast, an aging, decrepit castle that dominates the countryside around it, and the majority of the action consists of speeches and interaction between the different characters in the castle, centering on Titus Groan, the crown prince of the ritual-bound household. ...Apple is the tail that wags the Wintel dog. - Herb Bethoney, PC Week ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 02:52:54 PDT From: "Capitalism Blows" Subject: they're not as good as those other dude's but there're more of them, and i won't call the fuzz on you for any "impermissible" use of them. . new ones are at the bottom (sorry, eb). the second roll, which was to have featured many keen shots of robyn ripping the lips' electric guitar to shreds, didn't turn out *at all*. i've no idea why. also another fegPIC!. don't know why the girl cut robyn's name off. i mean, her friend's only holding a damned *THOTH* sign, for chrissakes! . _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 10:43:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: RE: Neutral Milk Hotel. No Robyn Hitchcock On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, Partridge, John wrote: > That's fair: I don't like post WWII "art". Rothko and Warhol > produced stuff that was fun to look at, really cool stuff, but > it wasn't art. it always boggles me when people say something like this. what standards do words on paper bound between covers have to meet before you will call them a "book"? if i get up on a podium in front of 200 people and talk but i don't make any sense, have i really not given a speech? come on. you've already admitted you don't like it; don't go trying to redraw the rules so that everyone else's opinions are meaningless. > John Cage's work was a mockery of music: listen to the audience > members rustle, cough, and sneeze; here's what a piano sounds like if > you put a hammer and a coke bottle over the strings; here's how > painful atonal music can be; etc. "i don't like it, so not only can't it be any good, but the artist can't even have intended for it to be any good." though i only own one John Cage piece (a, er, cover of 4'33" that the Magnetic Fields put between their first two albums when they were reissued on one CD), i've heard several and enjoyed them. not everything he wrote was conceptual, and since you seem to have studied contemporary music at least somewhat, i expect you know that. > Before: Shakespeare, Byron, Yeats. > After: Ashberry, Plath, Heaney. > Not dead, just convulsing. um, yeah, if i got to pick my three favorite records from 1990-1998 and compared them to my three favorites from 1999, the first batch would be better. is it because pop music is in its death throes, or because i've rigged the results by comparing two periods of time of which one is eight times longer than the other? > *BUT*: just because they suffered more than me doesn't > make them an artist, much less a good artist. what you said, though, was that your pain (and all other emotions) were the same as everyone else's. being imprisoned in a labor camp, or whatever the example was, doesn't make someone a great artist; it does expose them to facets of emotion that you haven't seen, and won't see unless they DO turn out to be a great artist. aaron ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V8 #307 *******************************