From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V8 #278 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Thursday, July 29 1999 Volume 08 : Number 278 Today's Subjects: ----------------- digest ["Ghost Surfer" ] Blessed diminished b-flat [The Great Quail ] Re: Fegs, I once again need your help... [Capuchin ] Re: thought this was funny ["Ariel Green" ] Queen Elvis [Griffith Davies ] Re: thought this was funny [Capuchin ] Re: thought this was funny ["JH3" ] Re: thought this was funny [Capuchin ] racecar [Terrence M Marks ] Re: thought this was funny [Mark_Gloster@3com.com] Re: thought this was funny [Capuchin ] Re: thought this was funny [MARKEEFE@aol.com] Re: thought this was funny [Joel Mullins ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:29:53 PDT From: "Ghost Surfer" Subject: digest >Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 19:58:33 -0400 (EDT) >From: "Ron C." >Subject: digest only version? > >Is there a digest only version of this list?? > >thanks, > >rwc Yes. Of course you'd probably had a load of answers to this by now, but i'm on digest. And for those not wantng to go to Reading, why not go to terrastock, it's indoors and in the heart of London. Sounds good to me. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:34:33 -0400 From: The Great Quail Subject: Blessed diminished b-flat Little Priestess writes, >So what music would be appropriate for my show? >Unfortunately (as I recently complained to the Quail), much >neo-pagan music is pretty awful, so I'm leaving that out of my >considerations. Any other suggestions would be welcome. See, this is where you have to open your heart to JETHRO TULL. Go out and buy a copy of "Songs from the Wood." There are plenty of pagan paens on that disc, lots of solstice bells, bonfires, and naked druids dancing, with some great music to boot. It sounds a bit "Swords & Sorcery" on paper, but it is really a fantastic and very poetical album with some haunting songs. Much better than "Gather Ye All Around Ye Yew and Sing to Ye Goddess, Blessed Blessed Blessed Beeeeee!" (I believe a popular release by Lady Moonripple Ravenspeckie.) Other Tull albums with pagan leanings include "Heavy Horses" and "Stormwatch," though some of their best acoustic pagany stuff was only released on the 20th Anniversary box set. Some trad/rock music that might help -- Steeleye Span, Fairport Convention, Boiled in Lead, and if you can stomach the New Agey-ness of it, Loreena McKennit*, Enya & Clannad. Van Morrison is a good choice -- try "Haunts of Ancient Peace" from "The Common One." Other more obscure pagan music I can think of includes the Scottish group PROSCRIPTOR, which sound like what happens when Black Sabbath meets Jethro Tull and writes songs about Cernunnos rather than bats or seed drills. HORSLIPS is an Irish/rock group that sounds like a folkier-and-yet-cheesier Jethro Tull. They sing whole song epics about the Tuatha de Danann and other tidbits of Irish myth. And then there's always BAUHAUS's "Hollow Hills," heh heh. . . . - --Quailwise Beakdribble *Lorrena Mckennit, if that's the way to spell her name, is slightly less mawkish than Enya or Clannad. . . . and writes lots of etheral music for various pagan holidays, picnics, wicker parties and broom clearance sales. +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+ The Great Quail, K.S.C. (riverrun Discordian Society, Kibroth-hattaavah Branch) For fun with postmodern literature, New York vampires, and Fegmania, visit Sarnath: http://www.rpg.net/quail "The people asked, and he brought quails, and satisfied them with the bread of heaven." --Psalms 105:40 (Also see Exodus 16:13 and Numbers 11:31-34 for more starry wisdom) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:35:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: Fegs, I once again need your help... On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, Aaron Mandel wrote: > too much joy - king of beers I can't tell you how much I love this song. A man's bar is his castle And this stool is my throne Why am I such an asshole? Why am I here alone? Sounds like... I won't say it. Je. - -- ________________________________________________________ J A Brelin Capuchin ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:39:50 -0700 From: "Jason R. Thornton" Subject: Re: Musicians against Lung Regeneration tour At 10:08 PM 7/28/99 -0700, delia winthorpe wrote: >I've often thought of Tim as Robyn, Jr. or Robyn-lite. Perhaps he has >contracted Robyn to be his mentor? Aaaaaah. Tim Keegan is to Robyn Hitchcock as Trey Gunn is to Robert Fripp. Good news: James Taylor will be making a guest appearance on Sting's new album. - --Disney's Jason Thornton ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:53:33 GMT From: edoxtato@intentia.com Subject: Re: fegmaniax-digest V8 #277 Gnat-tastic wrote: > My radio show next week is falling on the pagan holiday of Lughnasa > (August 1), and I wanted to play songs to celebrate the occasion. > Lughnasa honors the Irish god of craft and skill, Lugh (pronounced "Lou"), > who was also the god of fire and light. Lughnasa is the feast of the > first harvest and is generally associated with corn and wheat (and > therefore bread and alcohol). > > So what music would be appropriate for my show? Look for a copy of "Chieftans 8". My favourite album of theirs ever. Full of good dee-delee-dee type music. Also, "Van Morrison & The Chieftans" is good for traditional Irish songs. If you run across the Drovers' "World Of Monsters" disc, that'd be a good one. They're from Chicago, and they used to do a really fun type of Irish-influenced pop. And if people start gettin' loose with the liquor and dancin' around, The Clancy Brothers. Oh, let's not forget the theme from "Father Ted" by the Divine Comedy. Although that always sounded more like a poteen-laden version of some sort of slack-key Hawaiian tune. - -McDoc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:50:30 +0100 (BST) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Re: Fegs, I once again need your help... On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, Natalie Jacobs wrote: > My radio show next week is falling on the pagan holiday of Lughnasa > (August 1), and I wanted to play songs to celebrate the occasion. > Lughnasa honors the Irish god of craft and skill, Lugh (pronounced "Lou"), > who was also the god of fire and light. Lughnasa is the feast of the > first harvest and is generally associated with corn and wheat (and > therefore bread and alcohol). > > So what music would be appropriate for my show? You definitely need 'John Barleycorn' (aka 'John Barleycorn Must Die') by Traffic. Wonderful traditional song about the world's most productive activity - brewing beer. 'Fire' by The Crazy World of Arthur Brown 'Whisky in the Jar' by Thin Lizzy Woody Allen's 'Wheat' speech from the film 'Love and Death' 'Floppy Boot Stomp' by Captain Beefheart and his Magic Band 'Ring of Fire' by Johnny Cash 'I'm so glad good whisky has come to me' by some old blues singer (Leadbelly?) And there are a couple of appropriate Celtic rock tracks on Donovan's 'Open Road' album. - - Mike "Nodens of the Silver Hand" Godwin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:07:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: Fegs, I once again need your help... On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, Natalie Jacobs wrote: > So what music would be appropriate for my show? Pink Floyd, "Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together In a Cave and Grooving With a Pict." - --Chris ps: Sure, the Picts weren't Irish, but that would only be a serious problem if this was a serious suggestion ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:19:11 -0700 From: "Jason R. Thornton" Subject: Woodstuck: Shut-Ins and Cavemen I've got a friend at work - she's an ex-hippie type. She called me up a few days ago and said "Hey, did you see that Woodstock turned into an Ozz-Fest?" (On a side note, after the Colorado shootings, she was telling people that she homeschooled her daughter, who's a bit on the gothy side, just because of that sort of thing. One of her co-workers asked, quite seriously, if it was to protect her daughter from violence in the schools, or to protect other people's kids from her daughter.) Anyhow, as far as Woodstock '99 is concerned, in my opinion "destruction of property" is NOT equivalent to "violence," or at least it is not equivalent to "violence" against people. Maybe to the vast majority of Americans, the consumerists that hold that all their toys and shiny stuff are really just metallic-plastic extensions of the Self, it is. And America's outrage against any desecration of the holiest of its holy Gods, the symbols of Big Business, isn't unexpected. But I don't really see the Woodstock "riot" in a completely negative light by any means. I dunno. Even if you "expect" to get screwed, financially, at something like this, it doesn't mean you should tolerate it - anymore than you should tolerate, for an extreme example, racism is some small hick town, even though you might not be at all surprised by the Annual Klan Picnic. This sort of wanton destruction, admittedly, isn't something I would normally advocate. Nor would I say that it is the "best" response to "being screwed." Heck, in fact, it even disturbed me a bunchload, as unadulterated "animalistic" behavior often does. But honestly, to some degree it was refreshing to see some people WAKE THE FUCK UP and rage, if even for the briefest of moments. Even if they all went back to drinking 7-UP the next morning, 'cuz it makes them "Un's," at least, for an instant, there was that one spark, that short-lived realization of just what massive greed and capitalist-corporate rape really means, that may hopefully plant the seed in these people that will someday grow into more healthy and productive forms of dissension. Or, maybe not. Maybe they were just drunk and stoned and felt like busting some shit up. Yee-haw! - --Jason "they knew what they were getting into when they bought their tickets - I say 'let 'em crash'" Thornton ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:20:48 -0500 From: "Gene Hopstetter, Jr." Subject: Gene's JfS review OK, I'll try not to lapse into rock-crit mode, mainly because I just had my Ten Years Out of College Anniversary, and I'm trying to grow beyond the Liberal Arts Paradigm (roughly, "Criticize Everything") to my new paradigm: "Enjoy things just because you do." Phew. OK, here goes. I absolutely love JfS. It makes me smile, and it feels like an old comfy chair that I can just plop in to and relax with. Like IODOT and Fegmania and Underwater Moonlight do. I can see a long happy relationship with this record. Robyn is obviously enjoying himself. I think he's had this album in him for a long time, but it took quite a while to gestate and hatch. The music has its legs, the bands and arrangements are wonderful, and the album is good from start to finish. That really surprised me, to tell you the truth. But after listening to it maybe ten times, I'm not experiencing any of those quick embarassing moments I've come to expect from Robyn's recent recordings (like when he overdoes it, or when he's campy, or when he parodies himself -- a bit too much of that on Moss Elixir, I think). I know other people have felt that, but it doesn't bother me this time around. I love Brion's production, the recording is crisp and the acoustics are wonderful -- warm, with a good soundstage. I hope Robyn and Brion do much more work together. Having the right band and producer seems to have enabled Robyn to relax a little, to let the other musicians shine more so he doesn't have to be so "up front," ya know? And even though Robyn's great by himself, when he's with playing with the right people he can be even better in a different way. I can't help but think he could reach his pinnacle if he does one or two more albums with this group. And, goddamnit, Robyn's in love. Fuck yeah! I just know that, when I hear "I Feel Beautiful" and "You've Got A Sweet Mouth On You Baby" and "Dark Princess." I can see the headlines: "Man Communicates True Feelings On Album and Lives! Film at 11." As for the cover, I like that too. I don't think it's fair to assume Robyn doesn't choose colors in a painting as carefully as he chooses chords for a song, so I don't see any reason to fault his choice of colors on the cover. Sure, the colors are garish, but they are fun, as though Robyn just felt like having a laugh with the paint brush. I equate the colors he used with banging on a water-filled wok for percussion, and I sure do love that recording of "Listening To The Higsons." My only reservation is that the album lacks "Daisy Bomb." One of my recent favorites, and it had better be on the outtakes CD. But I've had "Mexican God" and "Dark Princess," and, for that matter, the rest of the entire album stuck in my head since I first heard it. And that makes me glad. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:56:43 PDT From: "Ariel Green" Subject: Re: thought this was funny Funny? I was home-schooled K-12, and I'm currently in college. (not to brag but) I have wonderful social skills, lots of friends, and I'm generally the head of my class. I can get up in front of a crowd and give a speech, and I definitely don't consider myself a sociopath, or socially unskilled. (Heh, my husband was in public schools for his entire education, and he's far less adept at social situations than I. *g* Then again, he just doesn't like people.) My 3 brothers have also been home-schooled, and they're all turning out nicely, as well. Actually, for English this quarter, I'm writing a research paper on the merits of home-schooling over public-schooling. If anyone's interested, I'll send them a copy when it's done. okay, off the soapbox.. A. >So I'm looking at this message board about "homeschooling" (don't ask > >why), and I saw this post: > >I would like some imformation on Homeschooling children, I have a >four >year old and I am REALLY considering this option! >PLEASE DO NOT say that socialism is the biggest reason not to do it, >I am >getting so tired of hearing that and there are >soooooo many other ways to get children involved "socially"!!!!! And >at >least it will be out of the school system where the >"socialist" things are drinking, drugs, peer pressure, early sex, > >competition and so on! Sorry, don't mean to ramble, just everyone >I talk to, says the exact same thing, " she'll never develop good >social >skills!" _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:13:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Griffith Davies Subject: Queen Elvis For those of you still looking for Queen Elvis on CD, check out www.secondspin.com. They have (1) One copy for sale right now for $3.99. I think that somebody on this list had previously recommended Second Spin. I've ordered a few things from them without incident.... griffith _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:16:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: thought this was funny On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, Ariel Green wrote: > Funny? > I was home-schooled K-12, and I'm currently in college. (not to brag but) I > have wonderful social skills, lots of friends, and I'm generally the head of > my class. I can get up in front of a crowd and give a speech, and I > definitely don't consider myself a sociopath, or socially unskilled. (Heh, > my husband was in public schools for his entire education, and he's far less > adept at social situations than I. *g* Then again, he just doesn't like > people.) See, I would argue that the fact that you're married and in college shows there were potentially some serious problems with your early socialization. If you'd been experienced to relationships and all that other day to day soap opera crap in high school that we all were, you'd have more experience and a better idea of what your relationships can do for you. Does anyone else notice that it's the folks that don't date much that marry early (and almost without fail divorce before five years' marriage)? Certainly there are anecdotal exceptions, but I've always believed that you can't live as an adult with a person you dated as an adolescent. (People like my parents don't count here. That was a different era.) Not socialist, sociopathic (much), or social, J. - -- ________________________________________________________ J A Brelin Capuchin ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:29:11 -0500 From: "JH3" Subject: Re: thought this was funny >>I was home-schooled K-12, and I'm currently in college. (not to brag but) I >>have wonderful social skills, lots of friends, and I'm generally the head of >>my class. I can get up in front of a crowd and give a speech, and I >>definitely don't consider myself a sociopath, or socially unskilled. >See, I would argue that the fact that you're married and in college >shows there were potentially some serious problems with your early >socialization. Who cares about that stuff? What we really want to know is where she stands on the essential issues of state-enforced wealth redistribution in a globalized post-industrial economy, public control of natural resources/utilities/health-care, and whether or not she's read any Noam Chomsky. JH3 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 12:49:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: thought this was funny On Thu, 29 Jul 1999, Ariel Green wrote: > Funny? > I was home-schooled K-12, and I'm currently in college. (not to brag but) I > have wonderful social skills, lots of friends, and I'm generally the head of > my class. I can get up in front of a crowd and give a speech, and I > definitely don't consider myself a sociopath, or socially unskilled. (Heh, > my husband was in public schools for his entire education, and he's far less > adept at social situations than I. *g* Then again, he just doesn't like > people.) > My 3 brothers have also been home-schooled, and they're all turning out > nicely, as well. > Actually, for English this quarter, I'm writing a research paper on the > merits of home-schooling over public-schooling. If anyone's interested, > I'll send them a copy when it's done. > okay, off the soapbox.. Oh, I also meant so express my opinion that home schooling (like many other programs with heavy parental influence and low emphasis on competition and subjective merit) leaves former students with unrealistic levels of self-importance and confidence where it isn't necessarily deserved or needed. I understand that low self-esteem is a problem with some people, but overconfidence and self-importance are problems just as great in some. J. - -- ________________________________________________________ J A Brelin Capuchin ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:58:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Terrence M Marks Subject: racecar A good while back, some dude was asking me if I had any racecar albums. Turns out that I do (kinda. I have Carpool, a collaboration between Racecar and Poole). If this dude would contact me, that'd be ok. Terrence Marks Unlike Minerva (a comic strip) http://grove.ufl.edu/~normal normal@grove.ufl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:02:07 -0700 From: Mark_Gloster@3com.com Subject: Re: thought this was funny >See, I would argue that the fact that you're married and in college shows >there were potentially some serious problems with your early >socialization. There is a danger that you are treating someone as a statistic here, but the concern is valid. >If you'd been experienced to relationships and all that other day to day >soap opera crap in high school that we all were, you'd have more >experience and a better idea of what your relationships can do for you. My biggest concern with home schooling (this is another huge generalization) is that most people who are impelled/inclined to do this are less socially adept, or are already somewhat isolated. This tends to pass down the social fissures of the adults without the usual checks or balances of other influences. Often, the persons least qualified or able or just too messed up to teach their young are paradoxically the least able to tell. >Does anyone else notice that it's the folks that don't date much that >marry early (and almost without fail divorce before five years' >marriage)? Sadly, I know of few exceptions to your rule, but they are significant-enough to challenge a condemnation by statistic. >Certainly there are anecdotal exceptions, but I've always believed that >you can't live as an adult with a person you dated as an adolescent. OH MAN! Jeme, no matter how you say it, this is the truest statement I think I've ever heard (for me.) And, of course, dating an adolescent as an adult can lead to all sorts of problems, I understand. >(People like my parents don't count here. That was a different era.) Umm. I'm going to avoid the lineage bashing, but it sounds like your folks were umm, not ideal for home schooling, either, which was what this was about. >Not socialist, sociopathic (much), or social, Jeme: that looks accurate. Sporadic crabbiness does not necessarily equal sociopathy. Me: slightly socialist-leaning magnate of free enterprise, not terribly sociopathic, and decreasingly social (down from quite a lot.) Happies, - -Markg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:31:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: thought this was funny On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 Mark_Gloster@3com.com wrote: > >See, I would argue that the fact that you're married and in college shows > >there were potentially some serious problems with your early > >socialization. > There is a danger that you are treating someone as a statistic here, > but the concern is valid. I hope Mark maybe cleared up my previous message... though probably not. At least one person took this more harshly than it was intended, so I thought I'd try to clarify. I didn't mean to attack anyone personally. I didn't mean to treat any particular person like a statistic. I was just expressing a concern related to a few tiny facts. And I hope, as Mark concurred, the concern is valid. > My biggest concern with home schooling (this is another huge > generalization) is that most people who are impelled/inclined to > do this are less socially adept, or are already somewhat isolated. > This tends to pass down the social fissures of the adults without > the usual checks or balances of other influences. Often, the > persons least qualified or able or just too messed up to teach > their young are paradoxically the least able to tell. Yeah, this is very much the case, also. You find people who weren't treated well in school or who have radical beliefs and traditions keeping their children away from other children that do not share these beliefs and traditions. What you get is inexperienced, intolerant people of a new generation. I do think it's really tough for a person with poor skills to teach good skills to their children. > >Does anyone else notice that it's the folks that don't date much that > >marry early (and almost without fail divorce before five years' > >marriage)? > Sadly, I know of few exceptions to your rule, but they are > significant-enough to challenge a condemnation by statistic. Sure sure. And I do try very hard to treat individual cases as individual cases, as has been rehashed again and again on this very list. But this isn't a false dichotomy like that whole "traits of man/woman" thing. Again, I'm not dooming or condemning any particular person's current lifestyle, I'm just saying that I've observed this and the counterexamples in my experience are few. I was asking if that's other folks' experience as well. It stemmed more from the thoughts associated with the previous topic than it directly pertained to the message to which I replied. > >Certainly there are anecdotal exceptions, but I've always believed that > >you can't live as an adult with a person you dated as an adolescent. > OH MAN! Jeme, no matter how you say it, this is the truest > statement I think I've ever heard (for me.) And, of course, > dating an adolescent as an adult can lead to all sorts of > problems, I understand. And just to expand (expound?) on this: There's a leap between adulthood and childhood that requires some change and I don't think a solid relationship throughout that time helps. But it should be understood that all of these things are my personal opinions about development and growing up and all that... and I haven't even done most of it yet. As someone I trust and respect deeply said the other day, "There is no curriculum for human development." That's true. And certainly if there was, I wouldn't claim posession of it. > >(People like my parents don't count here. That was a different era.) > Umm. I'm going to avoid the lineage bashing, but it sounds > like your folks were umm, not ideal for home schooling, > either, which was what this was about. Bash away. My lineage is up for criticism. And yeah, my mother tried home schooling for about a year. My eldest siblings complained about not getting the social interaction. My immediately older sibling said that the curriculum made him stupid when he went back to public school. And me, well, it was my first year of school at all, so I don't have much of an opinion. But it was rather embarrassing when I got to public school and was mispronouncing all the words that my mother didn't know when I read aloud to her. > >Not socialist, sociopathic (much), or social, > Jeme: that looks accurate. Sporadic crabbiness does not > necessarily equal sociopathy. Apparently, I'm socially inept. I worry about how true that might be. > Me: slightly socialist-leaning magnate of free enterprise, > not terribly sociopathic, and decreasingly social (down > from quite a lot.) That looks accurate. Sporadic flights of musical performance do not necessarily equal sociality. J. - -- ________________________________________________________ J A Brelin Capuchin ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:03:25 EDT From: MARKEEFE@aol.com Subject: Re: thought this was funny In a message dated 7/29/99 1:05:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Mark_Gloster@3com.com writes: << >Does anyone else notice that it's the folks that don't date much that >marry early (and almost without fail divorce before five years' >marriage)? Sadly, I know of few exceptions to your rule, but they are significant-enough to challenge a condemnation by statistic. >> I know two couples who were high school sweethearts and who've since married. Both couple have been married . . . well, one of 'em for 4 years and the other for more than 5 years. Interestingly enough, both couples also took short (6 months or so) breaks from their relationship at some point in their early 20's. Maybe that's why they're exceptions to the above statistic. - ------Michael K. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:29:27 -0700 From: Joel Mullins Subject: Re: thought this was funny Mark_Gloster@3com.com wrote: > My biggest concern with home schooling (this is another huge > generalization) is that most people who are impelled/inclined to > do this are less socially adept, or are already somewhat isolated. > This tends to pass down the social fissures of the adults without > the usual checks or balances of other influences. Often, the > persons least qualified or able or just too messed up to teach > their young are paradoxically the least able to tell. My biggest concern with home schooling is that it would probably not include drinking, drugs, sex, or competition. Where are kids gonna learn how to use a condom? The parents sure as hell aren't gonna teach it. All my dad ever said to me about sex was "it's not something you do in the backseat of a car," which ironically, is exactly where I lost my virginity. And where else besides public schools are kids gonna learn the important life lessons, like not to drink liquor after you've already started on beer, or not to mix barbituates with champagne? Furthermore, junior high and high school is where people learn to interact with the opposite sex. Basically, what I'm saying is that there's a hell of a lot more to learn during those years than just what's in the books. I don't think anything can replace a public education. And lastly, I get really sick of hearing this Puritanical Christian Nightmare that drugs, alcohol, and sex are all EVIL! They're far from it. In fact they can all be great things if used wisely. I'd be willing to bet that America has the highest rate of alcoholism in the world. I wonder why that is. Could it be this "Just Say No" bullshit isn't working? Maybe we should get off this abstinence kick and teach kids how to be responsible for a change. Jokingly serious, Joel ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V8 #278 *******************************