From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V8 #231 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Saturday, July 3 1999 Volume 08 : Number 231 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Eb, the invisible genius? [Terrence M Marks ] Re: Emperor Sylvian ["Livia" ] Re: eb all over the world ["Livia" ] Re: drum solos ["Livia" ] eb all over the world [Capitalism Blows ] Re: Sharkboy rides again... oh, and little bitches who don't send tapes... and dum solas [Ross Overbur] Re: the devil and other quail relatives [Ariel Green ] Re: drum solos [dmw ] Re: Sharkboy rides again... oh, and little bitches who don't send tapes... and dum solas [Joel Mullins <] Re: Sharkboy rides again... oh, and little bitches who don't send tapes... and dum solas [Ross Overbur] Re: Sharkboy rides again... oh, and little bitches who don't send tapes... and dum solas ["Livia" ] jabber ["Marc Holden" ] Artists' Intellectual Property [Knaurr ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 23:23:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Terrence M Marks Subject: Re: Eb, the invisible genius? On Fri, 2 Jul 1999 gondola@deltanet.com wrote: > 3. Odd to see Terrence making a bold challenge to the throne > of Feglist Robyn-naysayer. But I think his agenda was badly weakened, > when he simultaneously claimed that Donovan and Tomita records > were among the greatest releases of all time. Oops. Not best records. Very impressive releases. There's a difference. The music isn't incredible on Gift, but it's the best packaging of any album I've ever seen. Robyn, generally, doesn't do much for packaging. "Respect" was put together well, but most of his other albums don't have much in the way of it. The writing on Gift has it's high points but isn't stellar, however, the presentation of the LP really strengthens it in a way that none of Hitchcock's packaging (that I've seen) has. And why isn't Tomita great? The tonal colors, man, the tonal colors. Terrence Marks Unlike Minerva (a comic strip) http://grove.ufl.edu/~normal normal@grove.ufl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 21:48:26 -0700 From: "Livia" Subject: Re: Emperor Sylvian > From: Jason R. Thornton > To: The Mick Karn fan club at > Subject: Emperor Sylvian > Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 4:22 PM > > At 04:25 PM 7/2/99 -0700, Joel Mullins wrote: > > >Maybe I'll check out this David Sylvian you keep talking about. What's > >he like? I don't think I've ever heard of him before. and quite attractive too, in a pallid blonde sort of way > If you're in any way a fan of Robert Fripp, or King Crimson, you might want > to check out either the Sylvian/Fripp studio release "The First Day," which > is basically a Belew-less Crim, or their currently unavailable live effort > "Damage," both of which are simply terrific. But, these albums owe more to > Fripp, I think, than Sylvian. and so they should. (sorry, can't quite help giving my teacher a bow.) i would give a lot for a copy of damage. but maybe it's already on the way. [in the raven's beak and all...] > Most likely the best introduction to Sylvian would be the insanely gorgeous > "Secrets of the Beehive." i am so jealous of those naughty little bees but hey, what's up a purple hole but a berry or two => livi/aura [and ieya rules the world. but that would be the mrs with the bow between her teeth.] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 21:51:14 -0700 From: "Livia" Subject: Re: eb all over the world > From: S Dwarf > To: ultraconformist@mail.weboffices.com; fegmaniax@smoe.org > Subject: Re: eb all over the world > Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 7:46 PM > > ultraconformist@mail.weboffices.com wrote: > > Longtime fans: did you ever hear any of these [GD > > trax] live? Inquiring minds want to know. > > i seem to remember him and the egyptians doing "Grooving on an inner > plane" at The Edge in Palo Alto CA in summer 1992. had the audience do > the "Wangbo'"s. wished us none of our presidential candidates be > elected. it was the same week as lollapalooza, where he apparently took > maisie, as i remember Mo interviewing him on Live 105 attending the > show. she was there to see Ministry. but the show at the univ of wa in spring 1991 was my first... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 01:56:20 -0700 From: "Livia" Subject: Re: drum solos yeah, but can they answer one bloody simple question? like where poor little livvy ought to go, and how bloody soon? hmph. scrub all the stupid blue. - ---------- > From: dmw > To: Engulfed in Living Slime > Subject: drum solos > Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 7:34 PM > > > trilok gurtu (with the john mclaughlin band) was pretty fucking > incredible. played trap drums and a host of percussion instruments -- > many of which i'd never seen/heard before...one one of his breaks, he > sounded like an interlude between storm cells in a tropical forest. but > his stuff was more compositional in nature than "wow, look what i can do, > tech wizardry" > > the sun ra arkestra had *two* trap drummers and a host of percussionists. > less a "solo" than a percussion orchestra sort of effect -- i mean, i > guess you wouldn't count gamelan, would you? so maybe i should strike > this one. but you should've seen it, really. > > the crimso sextet has already been mentioned... > > my, but you've been a prolific little bunch over the last handful of > days... > > -- d. > > np quasi _featuring birds_ > > ...if i wanted microsoft outlook, i would have *installed* it... > > - "seventeen!" cried the humbug, always first with the wrong answer. > > - oh no!! you've just read mail from doug = dmw@radix.net dmw@mwmw.com > - get yr pathos:www.pathetic-caverns.com -- books, flicks, tunes, etc. > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 02:17:41 PDT From: Capitalism Blows Subject: eb all over the world okay, here's a link to that mp3 etc. article i was talking about: . and here's another article from the same issue of the same publication, which i thought was screamingly hilarious ('specially the bit about getting kicked out of the house), which smells vaguely of denise sharp-ism, and which terry, at least, oughta get a kick out of: hmm, i'm getting my mail in in really mixed up order. so, i was gonna quote from terry linnig's question about arizona (having read it in a digest), but now see that i haven't received it in loose-leaf yet. anyhow, the boys played in scottsdale in '89, opening for r.e.m., and i wanna say he hasn't been back since. could be wrong, though. anyhow, you can *definitely* go straight to the glass hotel and search by city. i *assume* you can search by state as well? <> I think my second favorite song to hear live is Clean Steve. That's probably my #1 favorite to hear live.> hear me now, and believe me whenever, children. if/when you ever hear robyn and deni performing Never Stop Bleeding, you will, my friends, you will have seen the light. i think my second favorite is the egyptians doing I'm Only You (though robyn doing it solo, while fine and dandy, is pretty far down on the list). some other whiz-bangers: You And Oblivion, Freeze, The Lizard, Visions Of Johanna, Balloon Man, One Long Pair Of Eyes, Autumn Is Your Last Chance, Silver Dagger (by the way: recently heard the joan baez version, and it stinks like three-day-old shit), Surfer Ghost...um, i could go on all night, actually. but i guess i shan't. he rocked it solo, too. i've been wanting to get around to updating lobstie's "Mineral Man" collection, because i think it could (and should -- it's *such* a great concept) contain a wider variation of styles. probably never will get around to it, though. yes, Clean Steve was definitely the highlight of that tour. yeah. unlike aaron, i happen to love both burton (most of the time, anyway) and depp. so i'm pretty excited. you know what's kind of bogus, though? it won't be released until thanksgiving. how can you make a movie of the legend of sleepy hollow and not release it on halloween? er, do my envelope decorations count? just for the hell of it, let me ask if you consider wage-slavery cheating workers out of their labour? but speaking to this point, i think the question is, if somebody creates and developes intellectual "property", should they be profiting from it, at all? let's just keep strictly to works of art (granting that this may be a bit tricky to define.) should art and commerce mix? i would argue, no, they should not. now, this may sound a bit like a tautology, coming from me, as i would also argue that profits should be eradicated *entirely*, *everywhere*. and perhaps it is. but even if one were to grant a legitimacy to profits, and to set aside the fact that it isn't *too* terribly different from selling one's labor, isn't the selling of one's creativity a rather abhorrent concept? or is it just me? and this is where i have to kind of back-track, and admit that we live in the real world, and not in some other, better one (indeed, i did allude to this in my earlier post). if i don't think robyn should be making money off his art, i *certainly* don't think warners should. we all compromise our ideals. i think righteous babe, dischord, & cetera are great. but if robyn feels like he needs to sign with warners, then, that's his choice, and it's not a whole lot different, i don't imagine, than me feeling like it's a necessary evil to distribute buttloads of Eat The State!s using my car. however, i think you've got your analogy a bit wrong. it wouldn't be warners refusing to give robyn royalties for, say, sales of MOSS ELIXIR. it'd be warners repackaging bits and pieces of all the work put out by the artists on their roster, and selling *that* without giving them a cut. and the answer is, no, i wouldn't consider this a violation of robyn's intellectual "property", even though i'm ideologically opposed to profits. is that all too confusing? and if we abstract it even further, one should be able to sell mix tapes, for example, without having to pay royalties to the artists used. or, i should be able to sell my decorated envelopes without paying off to the schulz estate. (schulz is dead by now, isn't he?) that's my opinion: if you release a work to the public, you have released your rights to it. the other side of this issue, which i've always found a bit (though just a bit, because we know that capitalists/capitalist sympathisers are the biggest hypocrites to ever come down the pike) baffling is: whatever happened to the free market? whatever happened to the notion that whosoever could most efficiently supply an item in some sort of demand should reap the rewards? if i go down to the store and buy a copy of Catcher In The Rye, go photocopy it page by page, bind it up, and try to sell *my* version of it, and it turns out that, for whatever reason, people want to buy my version, isn't this a triumph of the "free market"? in other words, if we really believed in the "free market", shouldn't it be not only who could *build* a better mousetrap, but who could *sell* an *existing* one more efficiently that gains? but, as i say, one only has to take a most cursory look at the history of state intervention into the economy on the behalf of private property to know that capitalists have *never* believed in the "free market". well, in urdu, "choley" is garbanzo beans, but without the tomatoes. ha! man, i'm *still* kicking myself silly for having fucked up the taping of that show so brutally. and even *worse* was the next night, when i heard, but failed to capture on tape, robyn/tim doing Hey Joe during soundcheck. but if it *is* from that show, it probably came from dan poppe, who is a pretty good friend of robyn's, and who has a board copy (or would that be, coppe?) of the show. <> >>oh, i was just joking about that. I knew that :).> humph! then, i *wasn't* joking. how do you like that, smartie-pants? i ought to refuse to respond to this, simply because you used the godforsaken "acronym" method of referring to albums. (and might i add that this scourge has been appearing with alarming frequency of late. can't you *do* something about this, commander lang?) but, since you're susan dodge, i will defer. i will never, ever, forget the moment during the '94 show in seattle when i realised that he was playing Fifty Two Stations. i may have fainted, for all i know. nah, i didn't faint. but i came close, i think. factually, he plays Fifty Two Stations quite a bit (though not so much the last few years). the egyptians used to play The Cars She Used To Drive a lot. Night Ride To Trinidad last year at the mean fiddler. (spectacular!) America from time to time with the egyptians, if i remember right. <...About *one block* before finally reaching the freeway, I was forced to drive through a hella pothole...WHAM.> well, now i've seen eb use the word "hella" twice in one paragraph, i guess i've seen ever'thing. ME: warm it up, eb! EB: i'm about to! ME: warm it up, eb! EB: 'cause that's what i was born to do! um, i'll disagree with this contention. pretty strongly, in fact. sort of funny story. did my best to get this one guy that worked at the country club into robyn, as he was a huge beatles fan. you could say that i succeeded mildly, i guess. but when MOSS ELIXIR first came out, i told him to read the story included in the liner notes. he read for a little bit, then, just shaking his head, claimed, "this guy is *weird*." you mean when matthew sweet opened? that was feb. of 1992. matthew sweet was *very* loud. the egyptians were *very* good. in fact, that was right around the height of their popularity, and people began kind of semi-moshing when Balloon Man came on, about three songs in. at which, robyn told people to straighten up and fly right. somebody replied something to the effect that it was no big deal, and robyn said, "yeah, i know *you* don't give a shit, but these people up front are being crushed." (and this would've been, the day his dad died? or the day before? anyway, he did seem in sort of a bad mood, and i suppose that would explain why.) this was also the first time i heard the souped-up version of Clean Steve that joel mentioned. it was all i could talk about for *days*. KEN "It's the pelvic thrust that really drives you insane" THE KENSTER _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 10:25:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Ross Overbury Subject: Re: Sharkboy rides again... oh, and little bitches who don't send tapes... and dum solas On Fri, 2 Jul 1999 I wrote: > >I've got 20 Robyn legitimate releases on CD, 9 RH thingies on CD, That's 9 thingies on LP. I plead friday night Joelism. > Actually, Ross and I have some amazing similarities. [snip] Note to myself: Do not read Sharkmail with toast in mouth. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 08:11:48 PDT From: Ariel Green Subject: Re: the devil and other quail relatives >Many have complained of Elizabeth Morgan. I met her and her boyfriend at >Robyn's last Nashville show in February '97; she seemed exceptionally >friendly and nice. All these "bad trader" alerts make me really glad that >I didn't actually follow through on her offer to trade me a tape of the >Nashville show. Speaking of which, did anyone ever actually *get* a tape of this show? This was my first "live" Robyn experience, and I really would like a copy of it. (Bluebird Cafe, right? :) So... anyone want to stop by Athens, AL and pick me up on their way to the Chicago showing of SH? (Only half-kidding, and badly wishing I could actually go... stupid school... stupid work... *sigh*) Ah well... Just wanted to thank our listmaster for setting up the list so that individuals can be blocked without losing the whole list. I just hate that I had to block anyone from this place. :( Back into lurk mode... LSDiamond np: "Special" - Garbage _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 12:14:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Bayard Subject: mp3 not mtv >back since. could be wrong, though. anyhow, you can *definitely* go straight to the glass hotel and search by city. i *assume* you can search by state as well? sure. as well as venue, country, or a free text search of the review of the show (if any). thanks for that ween link. it was a heartening read. i actually have a robyn trading ftp site up if anyone's interested and mp3-crazy. C me. unreleased live material only, please! hey, there are some Glass Flesh mp3's up, speaking of which. http://travel.to/glasshotel happy third of your lie. =b official feglist costello nay-sayer! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:35:20 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: drum solos On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Livia wrote: > like where poor little livvy ought to go, and how bloody soon? > > > hmph. scrub all the stupid blue. i find your lack of context intriuging. ... re robyn gush: robyn was on my "a" list circa _fegmania!_, _element of light_, etc., and i actually thought _queen elvis_ was a fine response to the slump of _globe of frogs_ but his more recent work seems to have emphasized aspects of his craft that interest me less. not that _moss elixir_ was a *bad* record, mind you -- i think i rated it b-, since i was employing that sort of hubris in those days. but i hardly ever play it...r.e.m used to be on my a list too, and they've fallen a lot farther. come to think of it, i'm not sure who *is* on my "a" list these days. penelope houston, i guess...neutral milk hotel need to release another record or two before they really qualify... ...never really looked at the asking tree before. it was weird to learn, for example, that i was at nearly half the gigs were "young people scream" has been played -- i had the impression it was a staple for a little while there. ..okay, back to work... - - "seventeen!" cried the humbug, always first with the wrong answer. - - oh no!! you've just read mail from doug = dmw@radix.net dmw@mwmw.com - - get yr pathos:www.pathetic-caverns.com -- books, flicks, tunes, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 14:38:42 -0700 From: Joel Mullins Subject: Re: Sharkboy rides again... oh, and little bitches who don't send tapes... and dum solas Ross Overbury wrote: > That's 9 thingies on LP. I plead friday night Joelism. Friday night Joelism? Is that some new way of saying you got drunk last night? Joel ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 17:03:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Ross Overbury Subject: Re: Sharkboy rides again... oh, and little bitches who don't send tapes... and dum solas On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Joel Mullins wrote: > Friday night Joelism? Is that some new way of saying you got drunk last > night? Homebrew. Maerzen yeast, fermented at room temp, IPA malt/hops extract with extra malt and no sugar, aged 2 months. About a 7 on the Yum! scale. It's got to be mashed at home, not extract, to get 8 or better. Not that you're the list's only avid consumer of yeast pee, but you're more likely to discuss it here than most. I guess the same could be said of your appreciation of women (TC's in the running there), but surely you don't think I'm geeky enough to be typing in a fegmaniax! posting while I'm up to *that*! That was meant to be a nod to your place in feglist culture, not a dig. Did that sound like a dig? - -- Brewer Ross ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:11:47 -0700 From: "Livia" Subject: Re: Sharkboy rides again... oh, and little bitches who don't send tapes... and dum solas > Subject: Re: Sharkboy rides again... oh, and little bitches who don't send tapes... and dum solas > Date: Saturday, July 03, 1999 7:25 AM > > On Fri, 2 Jul 1999 I wrote: > > > >I've got 20 Robyn legitimate releases on CD, 9 RH thingies on CD, > > That's 9 thingies on LP. I plead friday night Joelism. but access to a turntable isn't that hard to come by > > Actually, Ross and I have some amazing similarities. > [snip] like trees, and dropping our atkin cousins into the sun > Note to myself: Do not read Sharkmail with toast in mouth. too late. it was already there, but with cheese. and now it's all gone to my {cast iron pay phone = ask richard for 35 cents}... or maybe just my fishy little brain shut up, sandy! bad boy. =>> liv, keeping pens and helicopter boys in betsy's bag ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:16:22 -0700 From: "Livia" Subject: Re: the devil and other quail relatives > Just wanted to thank our listmaster for setting up the list so that > individuals can be blocked without losing the whole list. I just hate that > I had to block anyone from this place. :( i wonder how she worked that thing? i'd ask toyah for help, but that's just little old me > np: "Special" - Garbage her very favorite m/ current! good hit, if i was a target for flying berries and such... and he's more of a ruby tuesday, albeit with with emerald eyes. Subject: Re: Sharkboy rides again... oh, and little bitches who don't send tapes... and dum solas > > Friday night Joelism? Is that some new way of saying you got drunk last > > night? > > Homebrew. Maerzen yeast, fermented at room temp, IPA malt/hops > extract with extra malt and no sugar, aged 2 months. About a 7 on > the Yum! scale. It's got to be mashed at home, not extract, to get > 8 or better. marzipan with a tiny center filling suits those of us made bilious by alcohol a loooot better > Not that you're the list's only avid consumer of yeast pee, but you're > more likely to discuss it here than most. I guess the same could > be said of your appreciation of women (TC's in the running there), > but surely you don't think I'm geeky enough to be typing in a > fegmaniax! posting while I'm up to *that*! Lisa thinks so. but she's pretty damn levodopey. > That was meant to be a nod to your place in feglist culture, not a > dig. Did that sound like a dig? only if clean steve is playing in the background. [anecdote: one concert i was at had a hilarious imrpov on CS -- something about how he took my stethoscope, the precious stehoscope hat had been in my family for generations, etc, and tore it up, and various other fighting bruces and atkinsons...] {eh? climb your own damn tree, little boy. bee topology is quite enough to distract me silly every time.} oops {laa laa type secret dance with giggle} =+> ly/ria and friends ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 17:32:30 -0700 From: Joel Mullins Subject: Re: Sharkboy rides again... oh, and little bitches who don't send tapes... and dum solas Ross Overbury wrote: > That was meant to be a nod to your place in feglist culture, not a > dig. Did that sound like a dig? What's a dig? I'm afraid I'm not up to speed on the latest jargon. From the context, it sounds like "dig" would mean "putdown" or "criticism" or something like that. If that's so, then the answer is no. That didn't sound like a dig. I took the remark as a compliment. Joel ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 17:40:57 -0700 From: Joel Mullins Subject: terror So who here has the new Pavement album? I bought it a few weeks ago, but I've been too busy listening to the OTC album to get into it much. Anyway, I've listened to it quite a bit this past week and I'm very impressed. I'd say it's my new #2 favorite. It definitely hasn't the strongest ending of any album I've heard this year. It seems like there have been a lot of albums recently that started off great but then ended pretty weakly. But the last 5 songs are probably my favorite on the Pavement album. There are one or two weak songs but they're closer to the beginning and those aren't bad, just a little weaker than the rest of the album. Anyway, I like this one quite a lot. Joel ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:39:34 -0700 From: "Marc Holden" Subject: jabber Any more word on the packaging for the Jewels for Sophia advance CD? Something was mentioned about one in a purple jewel case with an odd shape, while all the others seem to be normal (as far as I've heard). Still trying to find one for myself at this point, in any sort of packaging. Also, there was an article on Screaming Lord Sutch in the Phoenix New Times for anyone interested: http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/1999/070199/extra1.html later, Marc n.p.--Frank Zappa--Absolutely Free; the Slickee Boys--Here to Stay; Robyn Hitchcock--Invisible Hitchcock; Bob Dylan--Bob Dylan; the Kinks--Kwyet Kinks (EP) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 19:12:36 -0500 From: Knaurr Subject: Artists' Intellectual Property There was a "La" heard at Sat, 03 Jul 1999 02:17:41 PDT from the lips of Captialism Blows: >>>intellectual property.> >er, do my envelope decorations count? As a long-time envelope artist, my answer is an empatic "you betcha". >>>requires a decent amount of labour. I think that there's something wrong >>with cheating people out of their labour, be it physical or mental.> >but speaking to this point, i think the question is, if somebody creates and >developes intellectual "property", should they be profiting from it, at all? See, the question isn't "should the person who created the art benefit financially from it?" the question that the Yahoo issue has raised is: "Should an uninvolved party be able to benefit from a creator's creation without the creator's consent or involvement?" Yahoo is now saying that they do not OWN anything that is on their websites, but it still claims the ability to reproduce the content in any way for any purpose. Should this be agreed to and allowed? Now, your point of view (as I have gathered it, please correct me if I'm wrong) is that selling one's intellectual property is an "abhorrent concept". As someone who is anti-capitalist, that's understandable. But again, as an anti-capitalist, isn't it abhorrent to you that some third party is claiming rights to the content of millions and millions of websites and reserves the right to profit from that content if the third party so desires? Just think of a creative base that huge. If we are to agree that profits are a necessary evil, should profits result from some sort of labor? Shouldn't you DO something to EARN that profit? Yahoo has this massive creative base and wanted to be able to capitalize on that creative base without doing anything and without compensating the people that did do something. I believe that is what the original objection to Yahoo's actions was. Now, I'm a poet, and one of considerable talent (so I've been told). I choose to publish my poetry on the web instead of being published and selling it. I used to display on Geocities. Should Yahoo be able to profit from MY poetic ability? Should they, if they so desired, be able to package my poetry and try to sell it, when I don't wish to charge for it myself? What is the point of bootlegging something free? And is it not more abhorrent than me publishing my own book of poetry? Granted, it's not likely to happen, but the fact that Yahoo reserves the right to do it if they so desire. Something about that strikes me as fundamentally wrong. How many independent musicians, cartoonists, poets, authors, graphic artists, performance artists, photographers, lyricists, and whatever other kinds of "creators" you can think of...have a page on geocities where they display their works of art? Some of them, yes, choose to distribute their art in return for monetary compensation, and you don't agree with that. But the point is that no matter what, some third party capitalists shouldn't be able to swoop into a free market, swipe samples and sell them for a profit. Gosh, and I didn't even belong to the debate team. Rebecca Knaur http://www.bonni.net/becca that makes her email address becca@bonni.net ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V8 #231 *******************************