From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V8 #154 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Monday, April 26 1999 Volume 08 : Number 154 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Long Ryder sighting [Stewart Russell 3295 Analyst_Programmer ] Grammar. [Capuchin ] Re: nuck fegativity.... [Joel Mullins ] Re: Long Ryder sighting [Glen Uber ] I know! Let's all eye each other warily! [Vivien Lyon ] Re: nuck fegativity.... [Aaron Mandel ] Re: nuck fegativity.... [Joel Mullins ] Re: I know! Let's all eye each other warily! [Vivien Lyon ] Re: nuck fegativity.... [amadain ] PDX POP - OLIVIA TREMOR CONTROL secret show! (fwd) [Capuchin Subject: Re: Long Ryder sighting >>>>> "Michael" == Michael R Godwin writes: Michael> Griffin's band were called the Coal Porters Yeah, they're good, aren't they? Sid is an utterly sound bloke, really friendly, and tall -- tall enough to smack his head on the notorious low girder at Glasgow's King Tut's. Michael> Rob Childs on pedal steel ISTR he might also be with The Radio Sweethearts; they often tour together. It was highly likely that Bristol's own bluegrass banjo/guitar sensation Joff Lowson was there, lurking, as he does. Michael> It was four quid to get in, but I think it was worth it, Michael> even though I had to walk two miles home. I don't know how Sid manages to scrape by. His gigs are very inexpensive, and always great. - -- Stewart C. Russell Analyst Programmer, Dictionary Division stewart@ref.collins.co.uk HarperCollins Publishers use Disclaimer; my $opinion; Glasgow, Scotland ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 16:50:40 +0100 (BST) From: Stewart Russell 3295 Analyst_Programmer Subject: Re: Guns and Beer >>>>> "Michael" == Michael R Godwin writes: Michael> You can ride a motorbike and get married at 16 It's 17 in Scotland for marriage; thought it was 18 in England? Michael> following an incident in Scotland where a mad bloke shot Michael> up a youth club. It was a primary school in Dunblane. True and v. sad story: my flatmate bought a big old Citroen from a family in Dunblane that no longer needed the space for the kids. Think about it... Michael> despite the recent appointment of a drug Czar (or should Michael> that be Tsar, Stewart?). Both are acceptable. A drugs czar sounds like a dealer to me... - -- Stewart C. Russell Analyst Programmer, Dictionary Division stewart@ref.collins.co.uk HarperCollins Publishers use Disclaimer; my $opinion; Glasgow, Scotland ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 99 12:10:49 -0400 From: The Great Quail Subject: Re: nuck fegativity.... First of all, I warn you, this is a serious letter, and one I hesitated to write. But as an ex-teacher, I have found that these events have been really weighing on my mind. And not just the tragedy itself; but the whole way our society -- and even this List -- is responding to it. I know I may come of as sounding angry or even harsh on Joel, but right now this is how I feel, and I hope I don't offend anyone. Joel writes, >This is what I was saying. Marilyn Manson just reflects the culture. >And his music should not be outlawed or anything like that. We just >need to fix whatever's wrong with the culture and then people like MM >won't be able to make a living anymore. Why? I like Marilyn Manson. Hell, I'm planning to play Antichrist Superstar later today. Please tell me . . . why do you want to deny an artist that I like his livelihood? I'd call that censorship through economic terrorism. >And I don't think that MM "makes" kids kill people. But he sure doesn't >help any. Ah, but you are saying he reflects the fucked up culture and if we fix it he vanishes, eh? So . . . we fix it, like what, 1984? Brave New World? The Teletubby Happy Kingdom? And everyone will then be happy happy happy and there will be no discontent? Negative music often stems from discontent; all the die-hard MM fans I know plugged into his system of expressing discontent because franky, the Spice Girls made them sick, and maybe a teenager is too filled with confusion and anger to really fall for Nick Drake at this time. I know that was the case for me as a teen; hell, I still am . . . I can smile ironically a bit when I hear "The Beautiful People," but a part of me -- call him my inner adolescent -- still nods my head says, "Right on, man." And what else vanishes in your society? What other art, music, and literature will we be deprived of? I know that's not you intent, Joel . . . and yes, I am taking your argument to a point of "reducto ad absurdium." But it alarms me because it seems to be a vain cry that has an altogether too familiar conclusion: "This is the product of a bad culture. We can't really fix the culture. So let's ban the music and the expression of any discontent. Isn't that a start?" >How do we do that? I have no >fucking clue. A meteor six miles wide is probably the only solution. I could really get grim and cynical here -- not so cynical, however, as to wish death on the whole of humanity to fix the flaws of American culture -- but speaking as a former High School teacher, I pretty much came to share the belief that most of these problems start in the home, during the first few years of development. Sometimes, yes, a student may be violent or crazy because of biological factors -- bad brain chemicals, perhaps. But if a lot of our cultural dysfunction begins with family disfunction, how do we fix that without enacting draconian laws that directly violate the legal freedoms of the family? So many people are ringing their hands and saying, "How do we stop this?" The sad fact is I have seen *dozens* of students *very* like these little fucks that did this. Every teacher has. Some you can help, some you can't. Most confine their aggressions to simple behaviours or violent fantasies. (Honestly, speaking as a kid who was beaten up rather frequently by jocks, I certainly daydreamed about killing them all and blowing up the school. I bet most of you have played that scenario out in your sixteen year old head as well! But we didn't do it, because we either (1) knew better or (2) were not insane.) The sad truth is, frequently, you just can't tell who the really crazy ones are. You can construct the events after they've occurred and say, "Aha! all the pieces were here!" But just try doing that before, and try doing it without interfering with personal freedoms, parental ideas of control, social/legal restrictions, and the simple limitations of resources -- a teacher has 70-100 students he/she sees for only an hour a day, for the sole reason, supposedly, of TEACHING them; not raising them, instilling morals, or psychologically screening them as potential mass murderers. And yet teachers so often *do* help; sometimes it's amazing. I have noticed, that like Dave Librik says, this event is serving as a psychological Rorschach test, even for the Feg List. Anti-guns, anti-MM, blaming the schools, the parents . . . Marcy even questions taking your son out hunting; a timeless tradition where I grew up, and one I would fight tooth and nail to preserve. So what do we do? The easiest alternative is to turn schools into police states; or to use more and more spurious and often mendacious "profiling" techniques, or even to spend more and more tax money on more counselors and care providers at the expense of *education.* All I can say is that I am glad I got out of teaching. > Take two kids who are exactly the same, both being a little >fucked emotionally. I question your use of the word "exactly." >Now say that one of them likes to sit around >playing video games and listening to aggressive, negative music, and the >other likes to smoke dope and listen to the Grateful Dead. Which one is >more likely to shoot up his high school? I don't think I even need to >answer that one. You are right, you don't only need not answer it, you *cannot* answer it. This is a classic example of projecting biases and prejudices into a situation. I, for one, was actually more like the first kid in your example -- at least in High School. I didn't become a pot-smoking Deadhead until college. And you know what? The most violent act that occurred where I recently taught was committed by a kid who was a BIG stoner, and was stoned when he crept into his former best friend's house, slit the throat of his best friend's mother and then slashed his friend across the face. Luckily the moron was too high to weild the blade correctly, and both of them lived - -- after long periods of hospitalization, especially for the mother. One of my old Deadhead acquaintances became so divorced from reality he squited liquid acid in the beers of several people at a party who he thought were "square." These people, having never tripped before, mostly freaked out and had a hellish experience. His whole reason for doing this? He thought they should loosen up, because everyone's cool when they're on acid. You can't tell based on drug and music choices. You would *like* to be able to tell, but you just can't. Crazy is as crazy does. >What's wrong with school uniforms? Man, I wish my high school would've >had school uniforms. Nothing's better than a sweet girl in a short >skirt and knee-high socks. I see . . . so by your own logic, listening to too much Jim Morrison ("Gloria") and the Dead ("Hello Little Schoolgirl") while getting high on weed -- a known psychological sex enhancer -- may lead you to acts of sex with minors? Or even worse? - --Quail, heartsick, but still mad at Tipper Gore after all these years "Those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither." --Ben Franklin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 09:16:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Grammar. On Sun, 25 Apr 1999, Terrence M Marks wrote: > Eddie, is it possible for American society to be reflected badly upon? Terry, this reads as though you'd gone out of your way to end this sentence with a preposition. J. - -- ________________________________________________________ J A Brelin Capuchin ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:18:37 -0700 From: Joel Mullins Subject: Re: nuck fegativity.... Aaron Mandel wrote: > if they're both exactly the same, i'd expect them to listen to the same > music. > > i mean, i'm not kidding or dodging the question here. by saying that two > kids who are exactly the same can like different music, you're totally > ruling out the effect of personality on music choice, which a lot of > people think is the dominant factor in any correlation you see between > what music someone likes and how they act. You're right. That was a bad example. My point is that I wouldn't want to spend much time with someone who is a big MM fan. I wouldn't trust that person and wouldn't want to be around all that negativity. It just didn't surprise me when I found out that those killers listened to that type of music. Joel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 09:40:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Glen Uber Subject: Re: Long Ryder sighting On Mon, 26 Apr 1999, Michael R Godwin wrote: > They were doing a 'Tribute to Gram Parsons' tour, and they sang > 'Christine's Tune', 'Grievous Angel' (if it's called that), It's called "Return of the Grievous Angel". Gram's album which contained the song was simply "Grievous Angel". > 'Hot Burrito #1', 'Hot Burrito #2', 'Las Vegas', "Ooh, Las Vegas", also from 'Grievous Angel' > 'Vancouver might be just my kind of town' (?-forgotten the title), "My Uncle" from the Burritos' first album, 'Gilded Palace of Sin'. > 'Luxury Liner' and some other tunes I was less familiar with. Oddly, > they didn't play 'Cody Cody' or 'Wheels' or 'Wild Horses'. Even oddlier, > they did play 'You ain't going nowhere' which is a Dylan song. Isn't "Cody Cody" a Bernie Leadon composition? Maybe that's why they didn't play it. "Spend all night with the dealer trying to get ahead spend all day at the Holiday Inn trying to get out of bed..." Cheers! - -Glen- Glen Uber | "Without deviation from the norm, uberg@sonic.net | progress is not possible." http://www.sonic.net/~uberg | --Frank Zappa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 09:46:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Vivien Lyon Subject: I know! Let's all eye each other warily! - --- Marcy Tanter wrote: >I can walk > into my son's elementary school on any given day, > walk through the halls > where no one but his teacher knows me, and not a > soul will ask what I'm > doing there. I could open a classroom door and > shoot up a room and no one > will have known I was coming. The problem is, I > think, that people think > they're safe, that "this" won't happen in "my" > community, when it very well > could. Marcy, I could walk into my office, or yours, or any McDonalds around the country, or into a pet shop, or into someone's home- and kill a bunch of people. The fact is that we're all unsafe wherever we go, whether we're six years old or forty-five. Posting a bunch of guards at a school makes kids feel like criminals, makes everyone distrust each other, and doesn't really protect anyone. Vivien Do you honestly think that the elementary school should frisk people before they walk in? _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 12:48:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: nuck fegativity.... On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Joel Mullins wrote: > My point is that I wouldn't want to spend much time with someone who > is a big MM fan. you're obviously an okay guy at heart, if a little quick to jump to conclusions, so here's a list of other musicians you might want to watch out for fans of: Red House Painters -- talk about suicide sympathetically The Cure -- ditto Elvis Costello -- got famous for hating almost everyone the The -- apocalyptic images in which the self always loses to cruel fate Velvet Underground -- prophets of self-destruction The Soft Boys -- as robyn has said, not the nicest stuff > I wouldn't trust that person and wouldn't want to be around all that > negativity. to paraphrase someone else, there's only one generalization you can make with 99.9999% accuracy about which teenagers are going to shoot up their schoolmates: none of them will. > It just didn't surprise me when I found out that those killers > listened to that type of music. yeah, it didn't surprise you because you'd already made up your mind about this sort of thing. it didn't surprise ME that in the wake of the murders people were climbing over each other in a rush to demonize music, TV, video games and comic books, but i think my reasoning is a little more solid. a ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:59:15 -0700 From: Joel Mullins Subject: Re: nuck fegativity.... The Great Quail wrote: > Joel writes, > > >This is what I was saying. Marilyn Manson just reflects the culture. > >And his music should not be outlawed or anything like that. We just > >need to fix whatever's wrong with the culture and then people like MM > >won't be able to make a living anymore. > > Why? I like Marilyn Manson. Hell, I'm planning to play Antichrist > Superstar later today. Please tell me . . . why do you want to deny an > artist that I like his livelihood? I'd call that censorship through > economic terrorism. Look, I don't give a shit what he does. He can have his career and continue to make that atrocious noise for the rest of his life if everyone wants him to. I just think it's really sad that he's such a mainstream artist. Not only do people not know what music is anymore, but they seem to gravitate to things that are aggressive and negative and say absolutely nothing positive at all. That's just my opinion. I just don't think MM is very healthy for your soul. > Ah, but you are saying he reflects the fucked up culture and if we fix it > he vanishes, eh? So . . . we fix it, like what, 1984? Brave New World? > The Teletubby Happy Kingdom? And everyone will then be happy happy happy > and there will be no discontent? No, I don't like those ideas. I don't know that answer. But I think it should start in the home and the state should stay out of it. > Negative music often stems from > discontent; all the die-hard MM fans I know plugged into his system of > expressing discontent because franky, the Spice Girls made them sick, and > maybe a teenager is too filled with confusion and anger to really fall > for Nick Drake at this time. Well, I'd much rather listen to the Spice Girls than Marilyn Manson. At least the Spice Girls can sing and a few of them have nice bodies. Marilyn Manson is what makes me sick. The Spice Girls just make me laugh. > And what else vanishes in your society? What other art, music, and > literature will we be deprived of? I don't want to deprive anyone of anything. But personally, I can do without all the art, literature, and music that completely sucks! Of course, that's just my opinion. Maybe I'd feel better if people started calling what Marilyn Manson does something other than music. It's not very musical. And as a musician, I'm a little offended. > But it alarms me because > it seems to be a vain cry that has an altogether too familiar conclusion: > "This is the product of a bad culture. We can't really fix the culture. > So let's ban the music and the expression of any discontent. Isn't that a > start?" Well, as I've already said many times, I don't think anyone's music should be banned for any reason. Even if it was proven that MM was causing killings around the world. And I don't think it is and have never said that it was. I don't believe in censorship. I believe in freedom of speech and expression. But as I've said before, MM has nothing of value to express and therefore, it's rather said that all the kids seem to be in love with him. Once again, this is just my opinion. > I could really get grim and cynical here -- not so cynical, however, as > to wish death on the whole of humanity to fix the flaws of American > culture I don't wish that. That would really suck. I guess I just watch the Learning Channel too much. Supposedly, the earth will get hit with another huge meteor, just like the one that killed the dinosaurs. It may be another 800 years before this happens but the odds are that it will happen again. It seems logical to me that this may be the way nature will take care of herself, by getting rid of civilization and humanity and starting all over. It's pretty obvious that civilization is getting a little out of hand. We've changed the entire atmosphere. The earth will most likely need to clean house someday soon. I don't think any of this is a bad thing. It's just part of the natural process. I hope it doesn't happen in my lifetime though. > -- but speaking as a former High School teacher, I pretty much > came to share the belief that most of these problems start in the home, > during the first few years of development. I'll agree with you there. > I see . . . so by your own logic, listening to too much Jim Morrison > ("Gloria") and the Dead ("Hello Little Schoolgirl") while getting high on > weed -- a known psychological sex enhancer -- may lead you to acts of sex > with minors? Or even worse? I don't understand your logic here. Where did you come up with that? I don't think I agree. Either way, sex with minors is a pretty minor thing compared to blowing away a whole school. Not that I would have sex with a minor. But I would have enjoyed looking at the girls in their uniforms when I was still in high school. Not that I would have been lucky enough to actually have sex. > "Those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither." > --Ben Franklin I couldn't agree more. Joel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 10:10:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Vivien Lyon Subject: Re: I know! Let's all eye each other warily! Marcy wrote: > There is no perfect solution and having a cop walking > around here might not deter > anyone, but it would be better than nothing. Would it be? Why would it be? Because it would deter those faint-of-heart psychopaths who only sort of want to kill people? Having a few policepersons strolling around looking authoritative may make you feel safer, but won't actually make you any safer. I thought you were worried about feeling deceptively safe. And yet, the addition of token 'protection' would only exacerbate that condition. Vivien _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:05:54 -0700 From: Joel Mullins Subject: Re: nuck fegativity.... Aaron Mandel wrote: > > On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, Joel Mullins wrote: > > > My point is that I wouldn't want to spend much time with someone who > > is a big MM fan. > > you're obviously an okay guy at heart, if a little quick to jump to > conclusions, so here's a list of other musicians you might want to watch > out for fans of: > > Red House Painters -- talk about suicide sympathetically > The Cure -- ditto > Elvis Costello -- got famous for hating almost everyone > the The -- apocalyptic images in which the self always loses to cruel fate > Velvet Underground -- prophets of self-destruction > The Soft Boys -- as robyn has said, not the nicest stuff Well, I'm fans of all those bands, except for Red House Painters. But you can't compare that music to MM. The above music is not violent and aggressive. The above music doesn't breed anger. Joel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 12:52:41 -0600 From: amadain Subject: Re: nuck fegativity.... >Superstar later today. Please tell me . . . why do you want to deny an >artist that I like his livelihood? I'd call that censorship through >economic terrorism. Because those that don't know history are doomed to repeat it. Because those who don't remember that the same things have been said about artists they may personally like may not realize that the situation isn't any different with regard to Marilyn Manson. >and there will be no discontent? Negative music often stems from >discontent; all the die-hard MM fans I know plugged into his system of >expressing discontent because franky, the Spice Girls made them sick, and >maybe a teenager is too filled with confusion and anger to really fall >for Nick Drake at this time. And maybe a teenager will never even have heard of Nick Drake. I know you've met the average American teenager, Quail, but I wonder if Joel has? Most of the time, if it isn't on MTV or commercial radio, they don't know it exists. The Spice Girls would have made me ill too. Part of why I fell for Bob Dylan was because his system of expressing discontent (nice phrase!) happened to dovetail rather well with what I was feeling at the time. My reaction to "It's Alright Ma, I'm Only Bleeding" was like, "THANK YOU! Finally somebody stood up and said something!", and I'm guessing that the reaction to Marilyn Manson is similar for these kids. Who am I to judge who had the better hero? >hell, I still am . . . I can smile ironically a bit when I hear "The >Beautiful People," but a part of me -- call him my inner adolescent -- >still nods my head says, "Right on, man." I don't listen to the Sex Pistols much anymore, but when I do, you will notice that I still shout along gleefully: "You're so pretty oh so pretty! You're va-CUNT!" :). Lots of people thought the Sex Pistols reflected a damaged culture too, incidentally. >fantasies. (Honestly, speaking as a kid who was beaten up rather >frequently by jocks, I certainly daydreamed about killing them all and >blowing up the school. I bet most of you have played that scenario out in >your sixteen year old head as well! But we didn't do it, because we >either (1) knew better or (2) were not insane.) I didn't think about blowing up the school, but yes I hated those people too. I'd like to know who here DIDN'T. >construct the events after they've occurred and say, "Aha! all the pieces >were here!" It's a faulty logic. They were here for these kids. They were also here for thousands of others who don't blow up schools. Adolescence is passionate. Adolescents act out. Often dramatically. Lots of kids will SAY things like "Charles Manson is my fuckin' hero" just to see you get shocked. Lots of kids think it's tremendously funny to blow up mailboxes. Most of the time it doesn't really mean anything. You just can't TELL by things like that. >But just try doing that before, and try doing it without >interfering with personal freedoms, parental ideas of control, >social/legal restrictions, and the simple limitations of resources Now I know you're talking from a teacher's POV, but I wanted to inject something here. This stuff about "studying the signs" bugs me just a little, in part because it does interfere so much with personal freedoms and with trust. I had a mother who thought I was headed for perdition because I listened to weird music and had an asymmetric haircut (which she later came up behind me and chopped one day). She also thought I was "in a witchcraft cult" because I burned incense. She used to go through my books and school notebooks looking for any drawings or graffiti that might indicate signs of impending trouble. She bought a book called "Tough Love", because she thought I was a "troubled teen". If they'd had home drug tests back then I'm sure she'd have dusted my room. Do I have to go on here or is the point made? The media coverage of events like these only reinforces that message: "your child's privacy is meaningless. if you don't like their hair and they wear trenchcoats, they must be deranged and you should constantly go through their stuff and make oddball accusations". >You can't tell based on drug and music choices. You would *like* to be >able to tell, but you just can't. Crazy is as crazy does. True, true. I guess I understand the desire to make it easier than that, but I can't embrace it. Love on ya, Susan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 10:47:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: PDX POP - OLIVIA TREMOR CONTROL secret show! (fwd) Hey kids. This is for anyone who wants to make the trip. I know nothing about these bands ('cept what I've read on the list and, to be honest, I never understand what anyone's saying about music... I mean, I hear you and I get the general idea of what you're saying, but I don't think I'm the sort of person who is a fan of a genre or a style or a mythos or anything like that. I like particular artists and I consume that artist completely, but I won't necessarily like someone else who is very similar or "a cross between" X that I like and Y that I also like.), but I'm considering going to the show. It's a weeknight, however, so I'll probably be all concerned about rides and getting sleep and stuff. I can't every be late to work again. Oh yeah, I'm going to write exactly what everyone expects me to write about kids in high school shooting people. J. - -- ________________________________________________________ J A Brelin Capuchin ________________________________________________________ - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 05:40:33 PDT From: seventeen nautical miles To: pdx-pop@geekhouse.org Subject: PDX POP - OLIVIA TREMOR CONTROL secret show! I'm sending this out urgently to get the word out that this show has just been added: THE OLIVIA TREMOR CONTROL will be playing live @ 17 nautical miles with THE MUSIC TAPES (members of NEUTRAL MILK HOTEL) on this tuesday the 27th of april, starting @ 8:30 pm. all ages, of course. **PLEASE** help me get the word around about this show, it's not listed in the paper and the flyers will only be up for a few days. It's amazing how many people can find out about something if enough folks are spreading the news around, though. So please help! - -todd 17 _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com . ==================================================================== = PDX POP -- pdx-pop@geekhouse.org -- Music forum = ==================================================================== . ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 14:05:42 EDT From: DDerosa5@aol.com Subject: mainstreaming evil music, and other thoughts All this talk of who pushed the taste boundaries in the past got me thinking of my adolescent years (and, for me as a teenager, after Kiss and Alice Cooper, it was mostly the Ramones and Lords of the New Church and other bands more embarassing than the latter) has reminded me that I just recently saw a TV commercial, a car commercial (might have been for an SUV) that used the first Ozzy hit, "Crazy Train." I've heard Janis and Iggy in commercials recently, but this amazed me. I don't know why, though. The pushy stuff from our youth always seems tame to our kids. So Marilyn Manson has nothing new to say musically, and must push up the rhetorical level instead. What's new, I think, is that it's marketed better. Apart from that, kids still have to decide whether they want to go kill people, especially to celebrate Hitler's birthday (something I hear Arnold Swartzenegger used to do in the 70s) (the celebrating, not the killing). I'm more interested to hear about whether people on the list who design or play a lot of video games think they can make kids, if not more violent, then better shots. Apart from Littleton, I hear the kids in Paducah (or was it Arkansas?) were amazing marksmen even though they'd not used guns before, simply by playing video games that made them amazing shots. Don't know that I believe it, but it's an interesting issue. Finally, to get this message to something I really care about, it's fascinating to see what priorities our society gives to news, and what can and can't cause what. A local paper, the Sun-Times, refused to run the Littleton story on its front page, claiming it would cause copycat crimes. Instead, they ran a story of Kosovo atrocities from NATO, where we are bombing refugee lines, chemical factories (which will poison most of southeastern Europe), TV stations that don't say things we agree with, etc. Is it any wonder that kids in the US are potentially ultra-violent? We live in the most violent society in the world (though normally we keep it under our hats), where kids see our commander-in-chief and sec. of state bomb a modern state back to the Iron Age in the name of peace. Not that TV's talking heads will come up with that connection anytime soon. No, it's the Marilyn Manson in their walkmans or the Ozzy Osbourne selling them cars. Tonight I'll be protesting a NATO event here in Chicago--they're celebrating their 50th anniversary with a series of talks entitled "Peacemakers"--Kissinger was first, late last year. Today it was supposed to Wesley Clark, but he's too busy making peace, so we get an admiral instead. I'll be carrying a placard that says "We had to destroy the future in order to save it." Littleton, after all, is small potatoes compared to realpolitik. dave ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V8 #154 *******************************