From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V8 #152 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Sunday, April 25 1999 Volume 08 : Number 152 Today's Subjects: ----------------- whereabouts of Randi [Carole Reichstein ] Re: High School shooting [Aaron Mandel ] RE: Colorado [amadain ] Re: High School shooting [Joel Mullins ] Re: Colorado [Joel Mullins ] Re: Manson [amadain ] Re: High School shooting [S Dwarf ] Re: Littleton [Ben ] Re: nuck fegativity.... [Mark Gloster ] re: the inevitable flurry of posts [Eb ] Re: Manson [Terrence M Marks ] Re: nuck fegativity.... [normal@grove.ufl.edu] Re: nuck fegativity.... [Joel Mullins ] Re: the inevitable flurry of posts [Joel Mullins ] Guns and Beer [Joel Mullins ] Re: Fegdreams #176 and #177 [Charles Gillett ] Re: Fegdreams #176 and #177 [Eb ] Re: High School shooting [David Librik ] Re: Quails feet. [dlang ] Re: the inevitable flurry of posts ["D B" ] RE: High School shooting [tanter ] RE: High School shooting [Ethyl Ketone ] Stories? Surreal? [Eb ] Re: OTC ["Capitalism Blows" ] RE: High School shooting ["Partridge, John" ] standing at the gates with your weaponry, etc. [Natalie Jacobs Subject: whereabouts of Randi No, Eb, I haven't heard from Randi either. I haven't been able to e-mail her for a week or so..my e-mail just bounces back to me. Tried calling her on Monday; left a message on her machine, but no reply back. Grrr. I'm worried. Anybody else have any info? (no, I haven't finished reading the digest that just popped into my email box) Fretting, Carole, hoping that Randi's nursing Robyn back to health ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 21:52:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: High School shooting On Sat, 24 Apr 1999, Joel Mullins wrote: > My point is that in my opinion, anyone who really likes that shit has > got some problems. Why would any happy, stable, respectful person > listen to Marilyn Manson? I don't think they would. you make it sound like that's a bad thing. our society tells you that you don't need to worry about being happy if you just play along with what's shown on TV. fine, whatever, most people who're worth a damn figure out they're being tricked and move on with their lives. the weird thing is that society's idea of itself has gotten so restrictive (or maybe it's stayed so restrictive while the range of experience available in the world has exploded) that even people who are conformists at heart, people who are uncomfortable finding their own way, are getting alienated. that's where Marilyn Manson's biggest fan base is. musicians like him and Ministry and the whole Wax Trax crowd (who i like a lot more than MM, but that's not the point) have been around for a long time, but Manson's got a cascade effect working for him. need rebellion? Marilyn Manson must be an okay form of it if everyone else is doing it. a lot of people would say that this proves most of his fans are shallow, but i think it also proves how deeply fucked the things he's trying to abjure are. i'd say that anyone who likes nothing but soppy romantic comedies has worse problems than your average exclusively-Manson-listening kid. however, we've got it all set up so those problems turn up in subtle ways and people take it out on themselves. that's my take on what Marilyn Manson "means". as far as the music itself... it's just midtempo rock music sung in a stupid voice. whatever. a ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 22:05:01 -0600 From: amadain Subject: RE: Colorado >should talk about it, if people are inclined to. It's all too easy in our >society to lable someone as weird or an outcast and to then ignore them--such >as happened in CO--and then when they commit a heinous act, people say "how >could this happen?" Ted Bundy was a blond apple-pie boy and quite popular. When he was discovered to have committed heinous acts, people said "How could this have happened" :). Love on ya, Susan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 21:45:34 -0700 From: Joel Mullins Subject: Re: High School shooting Aaron Mandel wrote: > i'd say that anyone who likes nothing but soppy romantic comedies has > worse problems than your average exclusively-Manson-listening kid. I disagree. Soppy romantic comedies aren't steeped in negativity and aggression. Joel ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 21:52:21 -0700 From: Joel Mullins Subject: Re: Colorado amadain wrote: > Ted Bundy was a blond apple-pie boy and quite popular. When he was > discovered to have committed heinous acts, people said "How could this have > happened" :). He was more than just popular. He was destined for a very succesful career in politics. Everyone that new him loved him. He was good looking and charming and quite a ladies man. It completely baffled people when it turned out that he was a killer. What's really interesting about Bundy is that when he was 3 years old, his aunt woke up one night surrounded in the knives young Ted had placed on her bed. Joel ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 22:32:26 -0600 From: amadain Subject: Re: Manson >for trouble. The fact that so many people like his music just shows me >that the world is getting really fucked up. His music is so fucking >negative. >opinion, anyone who really likes that shit has got some problems. Why >would any happy, stable, respectful person listen to I can't imagine why they'd listen to someone who promotes occult and voodoo, not to mention CANNIBALISM. Why did you know, he jumps out of coffins on stage? He runs about on stage with a jester's stick topped by a human skull. Nothing is sacred to this man. There is nothing at all like singing in his idiotic shrieking, and the "music" is derivative pap that panders to the lowest common denominator at its -best- moments. The popularity of "I Put A Spell on You", by one Screamin' Jay Hawkins, reflects very badly on us as a society. Love on ya, Susan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 20:25:19 -0700 (PDT) From: S Dwarf Subject: Re: High School shooting Joel Mullins wrote: > Aaron Mandel wrote: >> i'd say that anyone who likes nothing but soppy >> romantic comedies has worse problems than your >> average exclusively-Manson-listening kid. > I disagree. Soppy romantic comedies aren't steeped > in negativity and aggression. but they are steeped in unrealistic expectations and almost pathological obsessions. those sort of "romantic" songs or stories ultimately give just as, if not a more, distorted sense of reality: it creates the fascade that obsession is the only reasonable sort of attention. fixating on either (or anything single sort of music or literature or tv show or whatever) exclusively isn't healthy no matter what. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 23:30:21 -0400 From: Ben Subject: Re: Littleton > I can easily see how a discussion of the Colorado shooting could turn > ugly. Just keep top 10 lists, NMH, and the Grateful Dead out of it and things will be fine. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:15:22 -0700 From: Mark Gloster Subject: Re: nuck fegativity.... I am unable to find any causal relationship between the Colorado shooting tragedy and the musical taste of the perpetrators. While I find Marilyn (Krautmeyer) Manson's music to be fairly unlistenable, the MM interviews are extremely lucid, and I really relate to that guy on some level. Some schools are outlawing trench coats. Many are trying to figure out how to keep "objectionable" music out of the schools and away from the ears of the students. My take on all this is that the music doesn't make people do bad things. Everybody makes choices all along the way. The music, and I may be using that term rather loosely, typically reflects or reports what is going on in the culture. I can't imagine that Marilyn Manson is musically and lyrically such a dynamic motivator that he/she/it/we/you/they (trying to be pc with pronouns) can even be a straw on the back of a troubled mind. I'm also not a person to accept such a cop out by somebody who says, "wow, the music made me do it." Someone at work asked me what I thought was going through the minds of the shooters. After a moment of wondering why this person thought that I should own the hallowed ground of murderous insight better than they, I offered this, "Look, I don't know what motivated the guy who cut me off in traffic this morning. Somethings are just mysteries and some of those I probably would like to keep that way." I wonder if the answer is truly to openly discuss these things and prepare for them. I don't want to say that I have so little faith in our culture that I will expect this to happen often. I don't think it's a good idea to create glory for the killers and feed wild paranoia for everyone else. I don't like any of the suggestions that I'm hearing in the media: school uniforms, lots of armed guards, outlawing music.... Living in a free society means that we need to deal with things as neighbors on an individual level before they happen, not vigilantes or big brother after they do. Well, that's my not-too-well-thought-out position that I articulated precisely as not-too-well. I wish the very best for all fegs, - -guitarslingin' sharkboy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 21:25:30 -0800 From: Eb Subject: re: the inevitable flurry of posts Sappy romantic comedies screwed me up far more than dour, negative music. Out, Eb http://www.fatso.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 01:23:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Terrence M Marks Subject: Re: Manson > The popularity of "I Put A Spell on You", by one Screamin' Jay Hawkins, > reflects very badly on us as a society. Eddie, is it possible for American society to be reflected badly upon? Terrence Marks Unlike Minerva (a comic strip that reflects well upon Hypedonian society) http://grove.ufl.edu/~normal normal@grove.ufl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 01:24:48 -0400 (EDT) From: normal@grove.ufl.edu Subject: Re: nuck fegativity.... On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Mark Gloster wrote: > My take on all this is that the music doesn't make people do bad things. > Everybody makes choices all along the way. The music, and I may be using The things that you're exposed to affect what you do. Advertising affects people's shopping choices, violent media can increase a person's proclivity towards violence, etc. This isn't to say that people aren't resposible for their actions, but if you've got someone who wallows in music with violent, dark imagery with flashes of isolationism and anti-mainstream elitism, they're more likely to act upon those sort of urges than they would be if they didn't. (No, personal counterexamples are not relevant) Of course, people tend towards music that fits their general character; I think that to an extent the personality and cultural influences reinforce each other. Basically, everyone thinks they should do something about it, but no-one has the slightest idea what. I'm no better. Terrence Marks Unlike Minerva (a comic strip) http://grove.ufl.edu/~normal normal@grove.ufl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 01:27:49 -0700 From: Joel Mullins Subject: Re: nuck fegativity.... Mark Gloster wrote: > My take on all this is that the music doesn't make people do bad things. > Everybody makes choices all along the way. The music, and I may be using > that term rather loosely, typically reflects or reports what is going on > in the culture. This is what I was saying. Marilyn Manson just reflects the culture. And his music should not be outlawed or anything like that. We just need to fix whatever's wrong with the culture and then people like MM won't be able to make a living anymore. How do we do that? I have no fucking clue. A meteor six miles wide is probably the only solution. And I don't think that MM "makes" kids kill people. But he sure doesn't help any. Take two kids who are exactly the same, both being a little fucked emotionally. Now say that one of them likes to sit around playing video games and listening to aggressive, negative music, and the other likes to smoke dope and listen to the Grateful Dead. Which one is more likely to shoot up his high school? I don't think I even need to answer that one. > I don't like any of the suggestions that I'm hearing in > the media: school uniforms, lots of armed guards, outlawing music.... What's wrong with school uniforms? Man, I wish my high school would've had school uniforms. Nothing's better than a sweet girl in a short skirt and knee-high socks. Joel ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 01:31:18 -0700 From: Joel Mullins Subject: Re: the inevitable flurry of posts Eb wrote: > > Sappy romantic comedies screwed me up far more than dour, negative music. It's not about this stuff screwing people up. Romantic comedies and negative music won't cause someone to kill another person on their own. But if you take someone who is already screwed up and add that negative music, then you've got more trouble than if that already screwed up person starting watching Meg Ryan movies. Joel ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 01:37:35 -0700 From: Joel Mullins Subject: Guns and Beer Hey, I saw something on the news earlier where someone said kids today can get guns easier than they can get beer. Where the fuck did they get that info? I don't know what it's like today, but when I was in high school, beer was extremely easy to get and I NEVER saw a gun at school or a party or anywhere. This gives me an idea. Maybe the fucking school system shouldn't be spending so much time telling kids to "just say no" to alcohol and drugs. I guarantee you that if all American high school students smoked a joint before school everyday, we'd see less of these shootings. Of course, they probably wouldn't do very well in school either. Joel ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 02:53:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Charles Gillett Subject: Re: Fegdreams #176 and #177 On Sat, 24 Apr 1999 13:15:38 -0800, Eb wrote: > ...because the songs are so overstuffed with chord changes... What's this? Have you been counting chords again? > Oh, man. I heard that one. There was this one mostly spoken-word > track, in which Fahey describes his guitar to someone in Cul de Sac > as if it's an unknown object, that's one of the most unlistenably > pretentious things I've *ever* heard. Pretentious? What's the pretense? I just found it funny. The track after it I found far more pointless, Fahey rambling about something cosmic. The fact that these tracks are called "More Nothing" and "Nothing" doesn't lend much seriousness to them. I took "More Nothing" to be a somewhat funny and weird demonstration of the communication difficulties between Fahey and Glenn Jones of Cul De Sac. I like roughly half of that album, but despite Fahey's declarations that he's finally doing what he wants to be doing and the believes it is his best work, I wouldn't trade any one of his '60s albums for all of his recent output. > PS The Residents show last night was *awesome*. Anyone else see > this tour? Talk about pretentious! Eyeball heads? "Dirty" Bible stories? I think this might be self-indulgent as well! I thought the big hooked noses with the microphones inside were very clever. The performances pretty much blew away those on the CD, which sounded very flat when I listened to it the next day. One of those little cardboard body puppets fell apart during one song (Hanging By His Hair), but it wasn't very disruptive and there were no other staging problems. Someone on the Residents newsgroup seemed to be drooling over the female singer...I'm not sure what he was basing that on, though the tight blacklit outfit did have a certain appeal. - -- Charles NP: Barre Phillips, _Camouflage_ (Solo bass, probably self-indulgent) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 01:03:16 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Re: Fegdreams #176 and #177 Eb wrote: >> ...because the songs are so overstuffed with chord changes... > >What's this? Have you been counting chords again? Nice try, dude, but the implication of criticizing someone for "chord-counting" is that he believes the more chords, the better...hence you're shooting blanks here, since I was saying the opposite. Eb http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/5258/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 04:18:17 -0500 From: David Librik Subject: Re: High School shooting This story is just a bloody Rorshach in which everyone sees whatever bugbear they fear threatens society. All you learn from listening to people talk about it is their own worldviews, their own cultural scapegoats. It really ends up as the worst kind of political discussion: nobody knows what really caused this horror, so let's drag up our favorite explanations for social and moral decay and bash them around. Just yesterday I read someone arguing that, "after what happened in Colorado," it was "obvious that horror stories are inappropriate for teenagers." Joel is sure that "negative" songs increase criminality. Thomas Sowell says that it was caused by an educational system without enough guilt in it. Grab whatever seems unfamiliar and threatening, face the meaningless tragedy, and play "find the correlation." Here is the only prediction you can make with 99.9999% accuracy about which teenagers will commit mass murder: none of them will. The only worthwhile thing to come out of the media brouhaha of the next few weeks is that it'll give you a great X-ray of the psychological state of the nation. That may be a pretty scary thing in itself. - - David Librik ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 00:45:54 +0930 From: dlang Subject: Re: Quails feet. senorita Lj responded thus >2.) I do not control what the great Quail wears on his feet. What kind of >bitch do you think I am? (answer: a ROYAL bitch) You haven't answered the question Lj, I'm still curious ( Yellow ) Just how do you cope with the sight of the Quail appendages ? , I deducted from your comment that you had a distinct aversion to human feet. So c'mon, satisfy my curiosity !. Is he sensitive to this bizarre phenomena and does he, like a sensitive new age person and in respect of your phobia , cover his bipedal extremities ? Does he flaunt them to annoy or repel you, or do you only ever see them in the dark ? Or, more darkly, could it be that there is no problem, because they are not ( as I suspect) human feet at all, but scaly and with small birdlike toes ? feg x ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 10:56:28 PDT From: "D B" Subject: Re: the inevitable flurry of posts >From: Joel Mullins >Reply-To: Joel Mullins >To: fegmaniax@smoe.org >Subject: Re: the inevitable flurry of posts >Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 01:31:18 -0700 > >Eb wrote: >> >> Sappy romantic comedies screwed me up far more than dour, negative music. > >It's not about this stuff screwing people up. Romantic comedies and >negative music won't cause someone to kill another person on their own. >But if you take someone who is already screwed up and add that negative >music, then you've got more trouble than if that already screwed up >person starting watching Meg Ryan movies. > >Joel Meg Ryan and/or Marilyn Manson, nothing. Not compared to the sorry fact that firearms are far too readily available in the U.S. to be justifiable in the name of any misguided Hestonian attempts at achieving or maintaining democratic "rights." Deal with that first. Anything else, so far as I'm concerned, is outright denial. "Six long years, across the bridge of tears, well, you aint seen nothing yet." - -David Baerwald ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 12:58:35 -0500 From: tanter Subject: RE: High School shooting >===== Original Message From David Librik >Just yesterday I read someone arguing that, "after what happened in >Colorado," it was "obvious that horror stories are inappropriate for >teenagers." Joel is sure that "negative" songs increase criminality. >Thomas Sowell says that it was caused by an educational system without >enough guilt in it. There is no one answer but it is true that these guys played violent video games, watched violent films, and listened to music that has satanic/violent elements to it. That doesn't mean that others who do the same will behave like they did, but it's worth pointing out because if you have a child who engages in these practices as well as engaging in other anti-social behaviors, it should alert you to the fact that there may well be something wrong and you need to do something about it. The school ignored the signs. I"ve heard that one of the boy's parents sought help once and when it got them nowhere, they gave up. Marcy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 12:02:55 -0700 From: Ethyl Ketone Subject: RE: High School shooting At 10.58 AM -0700 4/25/99, tanter wrote: >There is no one answer but it is true that these guys played violent video >games, watched violent films, and listened to music that has satanic/violent >elements to it. That doesn't mean that others who do the same will behave >like they did, but it's worth pointing out because if you have a child who >engages in these practices as well as engaging in other anti-social >behaviors, >it should alert you to the fact that there may well be something wrong and >you >need to do something about it. The school ignored the signs. I"ve heard >that >one of the boy's parents sought help once and when it got them nowhere, they >gave up. There's the rub you might say! The parents who live in the same house with their kid have a responsiblity to the kid. Balance, social values, ecology, ethics and respect start in the home and are taught in the home. The idea that the minute the kid goes off to school the parents have no control over the kids behaviour is wrong. There seems to be a growing belief in this country that it is the schools respnsiblity to raise a child, not the parents. Psychological help is readily available in America. As well as heaps of information on nutrition and food allergies and parenting. The burden of communication and guidence is on the parents. My sister only allows my nephew to play computer games one hour a day and she won't let a playstation or nintendo in the house, no matter how much my nephew whines that all his friends have one. And even though I make video games for a living, I think she is making the right choices. But Quake and Doom and Duke Nukem are not going to go away. Neither are violent films (how many millions is Matrix pulling down at the box office every weekend?). Those money making machines are in place and won't stop unless they stop making money (and the entertainment industry is making alot of money these days). I don't think it's about how easy it is to get a gun in america or how the teachers didn't pay attention to the signs or how many violent video games these kids played. The point here, in my view, is that this society thinks it's everyone's responsiblity, EXCEPT the parents, to raise the child. My 3 cents. Be Seeing You, - - carrie "Questions are a burden for others. Answers are a prison for oneself." **************************************************************************** M.E.Ketone/C.Galbraith meketone@ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 14:02:22 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Stories? Surreal? http://luakabop.com/tom_ze/ Interestingly, David Byrne sometimes posts to the Tom Zé bulletin board on the Luaka Bop label site. Zé's live show doesn't sound entirely dissimilar from Robyn's, eh? ;) Eb, wondering what sort of shirts Zé wears onstage FROM: David B DATE: Mon Mar 30 09:04:36 PST 1998 I just saw Tom's show here in Sao Paolo and it was fantastic! Truly strange and wonderful and completely inspirational. For example, he came out alone...although the band's gear was on the stage....and began mumbling into the mike, scratching himself, turning, going off mike, arranging himself, beginning tetatively to sing, then disolving into a mumble...scratchingh some more...etc etc...like he was completly alone and unaware of the audience...it was hilarious and beautiful. OK, then he brought outh the band and they would do some songs...and he talked a lot between songs (I could understand quite a bit, as Spanish is close is some words and structure to Portuguese). He held the audience completely...as no one, not even his band, knew what he was going to do next...and the stories were wonderful...crazy, inventive, obcene, and surreal. Tom also is amazing limber (for his age) and his weird and wonderful "choreography" was, well, stranger than my own...needless to say, I loved it. And the band was good too. He's working on a new CD...tentatively t-tled "Defective Merchandise", in English anyway...which is a loose translation of his Portuguese t-tle, which is also tied to a whole musical and sociological theory...more on that later. We're gonna mix the CD in NY later this summer, so should be out soon...well, soonish. Best from brasil...my own show is tomorrow here... David B ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 14:13:16 PDT From: "Capitalism Blows" Subject: Re: OTC indeed. i must say eb, your grammar/spelling "gaffes" have been occurring with alarming frequency of late. if this "trend" persists, i fear you'll be "advised" to give back your "trophy." From: Eric Loehr Reply-To: Eric Loehr To: spleens a go-go Subject: Re: OTC Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:48:49 -0400 (EDT) On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Eb wrote: > collaborator. So, now that the big Beulah/Of Montreal/Ladybug Transistor > extravaganza is nearly here, I have a *new* concert to await with baited > breath. Does this mean you'll be having sushi for dinner before the show? ;-} Eric _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 14:40:30 -0700 From: "Partridge, John" Subject: RE: High School shooting Amen. A happy bird is a filthy bird. > -----Original Message----- > From: David Librik [mailto:librik@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu] > Sent: Sunday, April 25, 1999 2:18 AM > To: fegmaniax@smoe.org > Subject: Re: High School shooting > > > This story is just a bloody Rorshach in which everyone sees whatever > bugbear they fear threatens society. All you learn from listening to > people talk about it is their own worldviews, their own cultural > scapegoats. It really ends up as the worst kind of political > discussion: > nobody knows what really caused this horror, so let's drag up our > favorite explanations for social and moral decay and bash them around. > > Just yesterday I read someone arguing that, "after what happened in > Colorado," it was "obvious that horror stories are inappropriate for > teenagers." Joel is sure that "negative" songs increase criminality. > Thomas Sowell says that it was caused by an educational system without > enough guilt in it. Grab whatever seems unfamiliar and threatening, > face the meaningless tragedy, and play "find the correlation." > > Here is the only prediction you can make with 99.9999% accuracy about > which teenagers will commit mass murder: none of them will. > > The only worthwhile thing to come out of the media brouhaha of the > next few weeks is that it'll give you a great X-ray of the > psychological > state of the nation. That may be a pretty scary thing in itself. > > - David Librik > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 18:21:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Natalie Jacobs Subject: standing at the gates with your weaponry, etc. > was playing: Julie Doiron, "Will You Still Love Me?" woj would like this, > I think. Dunno whether that's good or bad. > << > > have you heard _loneliest in the morning_? how does this compare? No, I've never heard of her before. I'm just reviewing this for the college radio station. I kinda like it, but it's the sort of stuff that makes you fall asleep real easily - very quiet and moody. > Come to think of it I don't think I've seen a mention on Chalkhills yet > either, though there is some lag time on their digests. Was one of the culprits an XTC fan? If not, that would explain the lack of mention. (Though I might expect some cute lil "Melt the Guns" quotes.) > >2. I got in an argument with Eb and a couple of other Fegs because I was > >dissing Sebadoh (I hate 'em in real life, too). I think the argument > >eventually ended up turning into a fistfight. > > Did I kick your ass? No, the reverse, as I recall. I don't want to get too into the whole Littleton thing, but I do want to say that this spate of school killings points to something fundamentally and deeply fucked up in our society; however, Marilyn Manson and co. are a symptom, *not* a cause. Marilyn Manson, like Madonna, is a savvy marketer who's simply giving his audience what they want. God, I almost used the word "zeitgeist." Please excuse me while I bathe in disinfectant. n. ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V8 #152 *******************************