From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V8 #131 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Friday, April 9 1999 Volume 08 : Number 131 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Lee wants buffalo so just hand 'em over ["D B" ] oh yeah... [dmw ] RA of XTC on World Cafe [steve ] Re: track listing? [Michael R Godwin ] Re: eddies typing speed [dlang ] Re: track listing? [Mike Runion ] yip yip yip yip yip [Natalie Jacobs ] Re: too many short bits ["Chadbury the butler" ] Quail dropping jewelry [Richard Plumb at NTAC ] TLOR Movie (.01% Baggins geneaology) [Jon Fetter ] Re: Quail dropping jewelry [dmw ] Linguistics of song [Joel Mullins ] Re: Linguistics of song [Capuchin ] Re: Linguistics of song [overbury@cn.ca] Re: Linguistics of song [Eb ] Re: Linguistics of song [MARKEEFE@aol.com] Re: Linguistics of song [Capuchin ] Re: Linguistics of song [Capuchin ] Re: Linguistics of song - oops + [overbury@cn.ca] Re: Linguistics of song - oops ++ [overbury@cn.ca] Re: Linguistics of song [The Great Quail ] The linguistic differences blah blah [amadain Subject: Re: Lee wants buffalo so just hand 'em over Grant Lee Buffalo be doing things for me tonight… But (Did I miss the previous conversation about aforesaid?)…? (I imagine I did…) I’m really fucking busy… But, hey, am I busily really fucked? Is Grant Lee Buffalo worth listening to? In anybody’s opinion? - -deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeebe... grantlee. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:08:43 +1200 From: digja611@student.otago.ac.nz (James Dignan) Subject: Re: stats >> 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 >> 25 51 108 102 157 82 77 53 39 >> >> now, that's not sorted by year or anything, which may explain why 10- and >> 11-track albums share in the glory of profusion. > >Doesn't this look like a pretty normal distribution around a prefered >standard (like, say, what the record companies will pay)? probably more like a poisson probability curve (did someone say fish???), as it is bound to be skewed by large track listings and the impossibility of having less than zero tracks on a CD (unless you've got some early Elvis Costello, in which case you at least have a CD with a "Less than zero" track on it!). To put it another way, I have a disk with one track on it ("Thursday afternoon", by Brian Eno). I also have one with about 60 tracks on it ("The Residents' commercial album"). So my album collection's length distribution is a bit skewed. Then again, so is statistically analysing CDs by track length. James (who's having enough trouble with statistical analysis of estimated elevation, than you very much) PS - Re the length of CDs - it's not the length that annoys me, it's when a classic album is released, then rereleased with bonus tracks, then remastered with even more bonus tracks... leaving those of us who are fan enough (or stupid enough) to go out and buy, trade in and buy again, then trade in and buy yet again. PPS - happy Quailday! James Dignan___________________________________ You talk to me Deptmt of Psychology, Otago University As if from a distance ya zhivu v' 50 Norfolk Street And I reply. . . . . . . . . . Dunedin, New Zealand with impressions chosen from another time steam megaphone (03) 455-7807 (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 23:33:43 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: too many short bits a) happy belated b'day, monsieur le quail grand b) since i helped start the thing, i want to re-iterate, briefly, that i'm not trying to deny you that want them the bonus tracks, i just want cd players to have a two-or-three-button-push option that lets you select the original form of the album, vs. the "enhanced." perhaps this could be supported in a "red-book plus" standard? b sub 1: (maybe it's a side-effect of the fact that i spend large amounts of time trying to design human-computer interfaces to be intuitive and easy to use, but the user infterfaces on most consumer electronics, most especially cd players and alarm clocks, are atrocious. "programming" with those interfaces isn't even an option for me, i'm sorry -- it trips my weenie meter bigtime -- and i dislike needing to run over to the stereo to stop it from playing something.) c) but i wonder how exactly we are divided on this issue into the old curmudgeons who learned to love music on large or largish black discs, and the young upstarts who've always expectorated their music to be be in reflective media d) i forget, bt i'm sure it was relevant and compelling e) i love sleater-kinney (and loved excuse 17 before that) but of course they aren't saviours of anything. and i wish they'd let carrie sing more; corrin's voice is the least of their charms for me, and they're only adequate-to-good in the lyrics department imnsho. but on a good night, live, they approach transcendence. f) there is no real six g) np young fresh fellows _it's low beat time_ h) nr cervantes _the ingenious gentleman, don quixote de la mancha_ (so great! much funnier, sadder, and scatological than i ever dreamed) i) yes, i _know_ "expectorate" means "cough." lame attempt at humor. j) you snak my buttleshop still bummed at the loss of opportunity to make an independent assessment of elf power's merits or lack thereof, not to mention learning more about de havilland vibrating maintenance, i remain yr humble srvant - -- d. "pictures of perfection make me sick and wicked." -- miss jane austen - - oh no!! you've just read mail from doug = dmw@radix.net dmw@mwmw.com - - get yr pathos:www.pathetic-caverns.com -- books, flicks, tunes, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 00:13:06 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: oh yeah... d) this "thirteenth floor" thing isn't related to heinlein's _the unpleasant profession of jonathan hoag_ is it? answering his own question, the knight pathetique realizes, "um, imdb suggests 'no.'" did it get recommended for the fegbook list yet, though? - -- d. conspiracy content: "unpleasant profession..." has lots of vicious things to say about birds. almost but not quite completely unlike all other heinlein books; a dark-humored surreal fantasy. if you remember it, an dyou think such things, you might think you remembered it being by fritz leiber, or jack finney, or summat like that. not r.a.h.. the bonus tracks in the paperback edition comprise more of heinlein's least-representative fictions, including the wonderful paranoiac fantasy "them" and the delightfully odd "and he built a crooked house." bonnie says it's a big back yard "pictures of perfection make me sick and wicked." -- miss jane austen - - oh no!! you've just read mail from doug = dmw@radix.net dmw@mwmw.com - - get yr pathos:www.pathetic-caverns.com -- books, flicks, tunes, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 01:16:30 -0500 From: steve Subject: RA of XTC on World Cafe www.angelfire.com/nj/hankt/xtc.html A helpful Chalkhills person has put the interview portion of Andy and Colin's visit to World Cafe on the above site. Andy is his usual jovial self, and Colin chimes in quite a bit. The file does not stream, so you'll have to save it and use RealPlayer to run it. - - Steve ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:56:17 +0100 (BST) From: Michael R Godwin Subject: Re: track listing? On Sat, 3 Apr 1999, Joel Mullins wrote: > Last night I was partying with one of my English professors and it turns > out that she is a huge Elvis Costello fan. Since fegs are usually also > Elvis fans I thought she might like Robyn. So I told her that I'd make > her a tape of some of Robyn's stuff and hopefully it will convert her to > fegMANIA. Does anyone want to help with the track listing? Got any > ideas? Some suggestions from the back catalogue: Acid Bird Kingdom of Love Brenda's Iron Sledge Sleeping with your devil mask The Yip Song I often dream of trains Airscape Raymond Chandler Evening The Duke of Squeeze Tell me about your drugs Glass Hotel Heaven Where are the prawns? Have a heart Betty, I'm not fireproof Oceanside Railway Shoes - - Mike Godwin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 21:52:36 +0930 From: dlang Subject: Re: eddies typing speed eddie wrote. >it's true that i'm a fast >typer.] why am I not surprised about this ? fex x, whose typing speed is fugging awful -probably a good thing, or I'd write even more gibberish than I actually do at the moment . ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 08:22:34 -0400 From: Mike Runion Subject: Re: track listing? > Some suggestions from the back catalogue: > > The Duke of Squeeze Why are there no little piercingly bright lights flickering on in my head regarding this? I'm sitting here humbly holding my fegbadge in my quivering hand, head hung low, ready to have it stripped from my grasp. Shit. Mike Statement of the Day: brains suck. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 08:43:31 -0400 From: Natalie Jacobs Subject: yip yip yip yip yip Re. the Feg militia: > the Key is to find an island (or highway median) big >enough for farming, a coupla outhouses, and a mess hall big enought that >Robyn could play it. Five words, my friend: the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. It's all forests and abandoned copper mines and moose and things - and everyone knows that a good Feg militia would need plenty of moose. It would make a perfect spot for our drills and practice missions. A tad cold in the winter, but surely three feet of snow and -30 F temperatures never hurt anyone? >Um...how about TWO or less tracks per disc? Way too many albums with four >or less. I believe the Glenn Gould version of the Goldberg Variations is all one track. That's the only one-track album I own (although I have a few that *sound* like they're all one track). Or does classical not count? >being the antiwoj (tm), gnat was destined to have this opinion. unless, of >course, she's just ashamed to admit liking a band i like (barring xtc, whom >no one is allowed to dislike by listowner decree). I've got a terrible confession to make, woj... I.... I don't know how to say this... this is so embarrassing... I like Robyn Hitchcock. But I am still the antiwoj. Long live the antiwoj. In fact, I like the way that looks, so I'm going to write it again: antiwoj. It sounds like a Polish subatomic particle. n. (slap happy on her last day of work) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 09:29:09 +0000 From: "Chadbury the butler" Subject: Re: too many short bits Doug: > c) but i wonder how exactly we are divided on this issue into the old > curmudgeons who learned to love music on large or largish black discs, and > the young upstarts who've always expectorated their music to be be in > reflective media > Me: Old fart, 2 turntables, about 1000 LPs in collection, listens to CDs without touching program key (unless it's to start from the middle of a CD too long to hear on the train), listens to LPs a full side at a time, likes bonus cuts, doesn't miss enforced 22 minute pee break or clicks and pops. CDs and LPs -- like it's all vinyl, man. - -- swingin' Chadbury ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:22:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Richard Plumb at NTAC Subject: Quail dropping jewelry I was watching one of those Best of Carson videos at lunch today (occasionally the boss will bring them in and show them on our office tv) and strangely one of the bits shown was this South Carolinian quail farmer. He'd diversified by creating jewelry made of quail shit. Essentially it was a clear plastic mold encasing quail caca. The molds were in the shapes of stars and arrow heads and stuff. Very amusing, but I'm afraid a little too late for this year's birthday. Maybe next year. Regarding Television/Tom Verlaine/Richard Lloyd. I'm a huge fan of Verlaine, saw a couple of great solo gigs by him. Once in the early 80's with a band and once solo acoustic in 1990 at McCabe's of all places. Another place to look for Richard Lloyd work is The Health and Happiness Show (title could be slightly off). He played guitar for them at least he did for one show of theirs I saw in about mid-95. rich _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 02:06:21 +0800 From: Jon Fetter Subject: TLOR Movie (.01% Baggins geneaology) I read an article today about The Lord of the Rings movie(s) that said that it was rumored that Sean Connery would be playing Gandalf (It was a horribly written article, calling Gandalf "the Hobbit elder."). Anybody else hear any other casting news? It's being filmed "in secret" on a farm near Matamata. Jon __________________________________________________________________ "And there went forth a wind from the Lord, and brought quails from the sea, and let them fall by the camp, as it were a day's journey on this side, and as it were a day's journey on the other side, round about the camp, and as it were two cubits high upon the face of the earth. And the people stood up all that day, and all that night, and all the next day, and they gathered the quails: and he that gathered least gathered ten homers: and they spread them all abroad for themselves round about the camp. And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the Lord was kindled against the people, and the Lord smote the people with a very great plague. And he called the name of that place Kibroth-hattaavah, because there they buried the people that lusted." -- Numbers 11. 31-34 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 14:25:51 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: Re: Quail dropping jewelry On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Richard Plumb at NTAC wrote: > of all places. Another place to look for Richard > Lloyd work is The Health and Happiness Show (title > could be slightly off). He played guitar for them > at least he did for one show of theirs I saw in > about mid-95. k) i saw lloyd live with h&hs on three or four ocassions, but his only recorded work with them is two tracks on the _instant living_ record. i think they're quite swell on their own, though, and make a compelling argument that most of what was good about the bongos was really (h&hs frontman) james mastro, not richard barone l) lloyd is my second favorite "rock" guitar player; verlaine isn't on the list m) the more i think about it, the more i think one or more of the stories in harlan ellison's _deathbird stories_ were directly related to _the unpleasant profession of jonathan hoag_, but i could be post-constructing the connection - -- d. np wedding present singles 1989-1991 "pictures of perfection make me sick and wicked." -- miss jane austen - - oh no!! you've just read mail from doug = dmw@radix.net dmw@mwmw.com - - get yr pathos:www.pathetic-caverns.com -- books, flicks, tunes, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 14:11:45 -0700 From: Joel Mullins Subject: Linguistics of song Hey, I about to begin research for a paper I have to write for a linguistics class. My original idea was to do something about the differences in the way males and females communicate, including the forms and styles of language that they use and the content and purpose of their speech. I'm starting to modify my topic though and I thought you guys may be able to help me with some ideas. Basically, I want to use the same idea, but apply it to songs as a form of communication. I would look at songs written by men and songs by women and try to compare and contrast these according to the 1) style of language, 2) purpose of communication, 3) success in achieving communication, and 4) anything else I can come up with that describe song lyrics from a linguistic perspective. Like I said, I'm just starting, so any ideas you can give me would be very helpful and very appreciated. There are a lot of different ways to take this idea, and I'm not sure exaclty what I want to concentrate on. So, any ideas about 1) more specific topics, 2) specific artists to look at, or 3) your own ideas about this topic. I'm pretty sure Liz Phair will fit in here somewhere. You don't hear many other girls singing things like "I'll fuck you til your dick is blue." Oh yeah, and this idea should be somewhat concentrated. Like: 1) the ways in which men communicate with women (and vice versa) through songs. or 2) the ways in which people communicate with their same sex through songs. Those are two simple ideas. I think they can be modified quite a bit. I know there's a really interesting idea here, but I don't think I've found it yet. Well, anything you guys want to suggest would be very much appreciated. Thanks Joel np: Jeff Buckley - Grace (for the first time ever and I must say that fucker can sing!! damn.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 12:29:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: Linguistics of song I'm sure this is just predictable monkeyspew, but... On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Joel Mullins wrote: > Hey, I about to begin research for a paper I have to write for a > linguistics class. My original idea was to do something about the > differences in the way males and females communicate, including the > forms and styles of language that they use and the content and purpose > of their speech. I'm starting to modify my topic though and I thought > you guys may be able to help me with some ideas. > > Basically, I want to use the same idea, but apply it to songs as a form > of communication. I would look at songs written by men and songs by > women and try to compare and contrast these according to the 1) style of > language, 2) purpose of communication, 3) success in achieving > communication, and 4) anything else I can come up with that describe > song lyrics from a linguistic perspective. > > 1) the ways in which men communicate with women (and vice versa) through > songs. or > 2) the ways in which people communicate with their same sex through > songs. I'd just like to express how revolted I am by the inherent sexism in shit like this. Don't you realize that the differences between, say, me and Bayard are much greater than the differences between me and, say, Viv? I mean, people express themselves individually and any generalization you make about "the way women communicate vs. men" is just so much contrived bullshit. It's like saying "the way people with freckles communicate vs. those without freckles". I recall a clip from some novel or other (I paraphrase) where a character is asked, "What do you think about women?" He replied, "I think they're great for receiving semen and making babies." The interrogator is shocked and says, "That's how you view women?" "Yes. That's what I think about women in particular. Now, if you want my opinion of people in general, I'll tell you." So there you have it. For each non-biometric trait you can point out about women in general, I can find a man who shares that trait. You cannot speak of particular things like "the way one communicates" in general terms. You MIGHT be able to make some kind of guess as to what MOST do, but what good is that when each individual works on their own principles independent of the majority? Fuck. No, wait. Fuck you. J. - -- belligerent. ________________________________________________________ J A Brelin Capuchin ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 15:53:19 +0000 From: overbury@cn.ca Subject: Re: Linguistics of song So if we're not allowed to speak in generalities, is the whole field of psychology to be declared a lie? Every person is different. How dare they assume they know what I'm thinking! I can think of a few songs by guys who say "I can't say I love you in person so I wrote this". I bet there's a disproportionate number of those penned by men, and I don't think I'm a sexist for saying that. Is freedom to be defined by the avoidance of issues that might make one seen in this light? This was penned as hastily as Jeme's letter, and not meant to offend, but I think we need to defuse this thing fast. - -- Ross Overbury Montreal, Quebec, Canada ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 13:12:02 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Re: Linguistics of song Joel: >np: Jeff Buckley - Grace (for the first time ever and I must say that >fucker can sing!! damn.) Those of you into that Buckley/Eric Matthews/Jeremy Enigk baroque-messiah mindset may want to check out the upcoming debut by Julian Coryell, "Bitter to Sweet." I'm still making up my mind about it, but it's sounding pretty good so far. Oddly, it's on the airhead-ska label Mojo, so we can count on the record sinking unnoticed, no doubt. Eb np: Joy Electric/Christiansongs (woo! nudges past Bailterspace as the worst release I've heard this year) AllStar news item: Rufus Wainwright's New Year's Gap commercial did more than introduce the anachronistic torch singer to millions, it introduced him to other endorsement offers potentially worth millions. "They would have been much more lucrative," Wainwright tells allstar contributor Corey Levitan, mentioning only Calvin Klein by name. "But the thing I liked about the Gap ad was that there was no logo in it. To see me up there with this Calvin Klein logo would have been a little weird for me." That and the fact that Klein, Wainwright jokes, would probably have requested partial nudity. "I'll probably be undressing constantly toward the end of my career, though," he says... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 16:12:18 EDT From: MARKEEFE@aol.com Subject: Re: Linguistics of song In a message dated 99-04-09 15:44:59 EDT, you write: << So there you have it. For each non-biometric trait you can point out about women in general, I can find a man who shares that trait. You cannot speak of particular things like "the way one communicates" in general terms. You MIGHT be able to make some kind of guess as to what MOST do, but what good is that when each individual works on their own principles independent of the majority? >> Now, c'mon, you can't deny that trends and tendecies exist in the world. Women and men are socialized in vastly different ways. And, sure, these differences are also very much perpetuated by ignorant and/or casual stereotyping in the media and in interpersonal interactions. On the other hand, to just deny the similarities amongst the members of one sex or the other actually works *toward* maintaining these stereotypes, because you're saying that these trends shouldn't even be looked at and questioned. Just because someone writes a paper (let's call this someone "Joel" :-)) about sex-based communication styles in song, that doesn't mean that these trends and similarities are necessarily being condoned. It just means they're being investigated. Possibility the first step toward them being erased? Well, reform begins with understanding (either that or a good militia!). Teach us a little something, Joel. Help bridge that gap between the sexes! And, Jeme, you once said, "I love Joel!" Now you're saying "fuck you" to him? Such a cranky, fickle monkey you can be sometimes. - ------Michael K., who would've communicated this in a totally different way if he were a girl instead of a boy ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 13:23:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: Linguistics of song On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Eb wrote: > To see me up there with this Calvin > Klein logo would have been a little weird for me." That > and the fact that Klein, Wainwright jokes, would > probably have requested partial nudity. "I'll probably > be undressing constantly toward the end of my career, > though," he says... Here that boys and girls?!? You'll get to see Rufus naked before the next century! J. - -- ________________________________________________________ J A Brelin Capuchin ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 13:26:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: Linguistics of song On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Capuchin wrote: > Here that boys and girls?!? Yep. I'm a dumbfuck that doesn't know a homonym when it sees one. J. - -- ________________________________________________________ J A Brelin Capuchin ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 16:26:04 +0000 From: overbury@cn.ca Subject: Re: Linguistics of song - oops + > Is freedom to be defined by the avoidance of issues that might make > one seen in this light? Oh, crap! Freedom from sexism, I meant. Like I said, hastily penned. Well not penned, but typed, and ... Anway, I'll say it again more plainly. The request was innocent enough, and I can certainly think of some examples of differences between the types of songs men and women write in *general*. You'd probably be better off making separate comparisons between different types of music (if we can classify music as "pop" or "country", etc without offending anyone). - -- Ross, who is less likely to be a baggy-panted skateboarder dude because I'm over 40. - -- Ross Overbury Montreal, Quebec, Canada ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 16:51:05 +0000 From: overbury@cn.ca Subject: Re: Linguistics of song - oops ++ From: overbury@cn.ca To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Date sent: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 16:26:04 +0000 Subject: Re: Linguistics of song - oops + Send reply to: overbury@cn.ca > ou'd probably be better off making > separate comparisons between different types of music (if we can classify > music as "pop" or "country", etc without offending anyone). Crap again! "within different types of music" is what I meant. I'd guess older country music would show a marked difference between typical song sung by men and those sung by women. Hmmm. Older rock too. Here's some guy themes: "I've gotta move on because I'm just a ramblin kinda guy" "I can't tell you I love you so here's a little ditty instead" Pretty obvious, and not necessarily a reflection on my own inner self, just a trend in musical cliches. Are we all OK with that? > > -- > Ross, who is less likely to be a baggy-panted skateboarder dude because I'm > over 40. > > > -- > Ross Overbury > Montreal, Quebec, Canada - -- Ross Overbury Montreal, Quebec, Canada ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 99 16:59:06 -0400 From: The Great Quail Subject: Re: Linguistics of song Awww . . . I'm not going to post to get into the middle of this, but I think Capuchin's being a bit hard on Joel -- especially given that Joel was assigned something! >I'd just like to express how revolted I am by the inherent sexism in shit >like this. Look . . . men and women, in GENERAL, do have some differences in general outlook, heuristic patterns, and communication style. There are also BIOLOGICAL differences in brain structure, hormonal balances, and brain chemistry. This does not mean one is better or superior; nor does it mean that there are no exceptions, or that we should base laws and policy on such a thing. But anyone who has spend enough time with a member of the opposite sex knows that the differences btween men and woman are more profound than the differences between freckled people and non-freckled people. Some of it may be socialization, of course, but I think to ignore it completely -- to think that the only difference is PURELY physical body structure -- is really to take a stand on some very shaky ground. To me, it also neglects the inherent MYSTERY between the sexes, that amazing zone that causes so much confusion and delight in so many ways. (And I don't mean, by any means, to place this in a purely erotic field. When I listen to Tori, I am aware of the presence of a very "Female" mind, and there are things there that hold a certain degree of mystery and fascination for me that I attribute to the female-ness of Tori. Same when I read Woolf or Plath. And there are some artists and things with very "male" characteristics as well -- I don't know that many female Rush fans, for instance, or women who enjoy playing the computer game Civilization. AND YES, of course there are exceptions!) Honestly, this is not a point I feel like arguing about too much, because it won't change anyone's mind, and to me, it's so natural, that denying it makes no sense. This is also something that ol' Capuchin and I have gone back and forth on before. . . . >Fuck. >No, wait. Fuck you. Ah, now see, that's just not nice. You should bake Joel some cookies, Jeme! - --Quail +---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+---------+ The Great Quail, K.S.C. (riverrun Discordian Society, Kibroth-hattaavah Branch) For fun with postmodern literature, New York vampires, and Fegmania, visit Sarnath: http://www.rpg.net/quail "The people asked, and he brought quails, and satisfied them with the bread of heaven." --Psalms 105:40 (Also see Exodus 16:13 and Numbers 11:31-34 for more starry wisdom) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 16:20:25 -0600 From: amadain Subject: The linguistic differences blah blah I'm with Capuchin. Just so you know. I read "Men are from Mars", and it was BOLLOCKS! It started out with what I considered to be a false premise. The idea that men and women are more or less by -nature- hostile to each other, that each member of each gender regards the other as an alien solely because they've got different parts. Fuck that. That's just really.....I dunno, JUVENILE. It also veers dangerously close at times to a certain brand of pop-evolutionary determinism that really bothers me. I don't identify with men or women. I identify with people. As it happens, I can relate to Momus a lot more easily than, say, Joni Mitchell, OR Liz Phair, for that matter. That's just how it is. And frankly I'm really a little tired of getting shit for that kind of thing. As if the mere fact that someone has the same body parts means that I am under some sort of obligation to like or identify with them, and if I do not respect this obligation it is an indication of self-hatred or "secretly wanting to be a man" or penis envy or dog knows what. I have -no- desire to be male, I'm happy with what I have, thanks. I just don't see any reason that it has to rule my life. A performer is a performer. Period. I like or don't like them based on their work. And no, I am NOT up for debating this point or having people try to change my mind on the matter. This is how it is. I've also noticed a distinct tendency among some males (and I'm not talking about anyone here, necessarily, this is a -general- comment) to think they've FOUND THE TRUTH ABOUT WOMAN'S EXPERIENCE, and get really angry at me for not validating this belief for them by going hogwild over Bratmobile. Get over it already. Hell, I think Woj, a bio-male, has much more of a feel/identification thing going on with a lot of women artists than I do. I don't see anyone getting on his case for being a traitor to his own gender or having vagina envy or some other damn fool thing. Love on ya, Susan ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V8 #131 *******************************