From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V8 #54 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Thursday, February 11 1999 Volume 08 : Number 054 Today's Subjects: ----------------- adding to the improbable glut of feg-posts [Natalie Jacobs ] Re: adding to the improbable glut of feg-posts [Eric Loehr ] Re: Glut, glut, glut... GLUTTONS! ["manitas de platano" ] Re: Glut, glut, glut... GLUTTONS! [Eric Loehr ] Re: [Non-RH] This really pisses me off; does it you too? [MARKEEFE@aol.co] Re: the Sultan of App [Capuchin ] Re: purple & triangles (long & no RH) [S Dwarf ] Re: more pac nw whitemale blah blah blah [S Dwarf ] TLA [james.dignan@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (James Dignan)] Re: fegmaniax-digest V8 #49 [Capuchin ] Re: Killer Apes [Capuchin ] ...so the Aussie stuck his head through the fence! [james.dignan@stonebow] Re: more pac nw whitemale pontificating [Christopher Gross Subject: adding to the improbable glut of feg-posts >>Natalie would like to request that her cat Aleister, The Great Beast, >>be our mascot, but she realizes she may be presuming too much. > >you could get into trouble with the resident prowler, Jennifer Jane >McSquiggle Angstrom O'Pusscat there... Oh yeah, that could be problematic. Aleister doesn't get along well with other cats. He has this tendency to lure them into dodgy religious organizations and get them to idolize him as their spiritual leader. But apart from that, James's backyard sounds like an ideal site for the fegtopia! I'll run off and get my plane tickets today. Come on, everyone! We're all going to James's house! > Zena must need >"a big dork" for the next season, and I am a "brilliant actor" when >playing myself. They've already got a big dork (Joxer, played by Sam Raimi's brother), but they could always use another one. >Why is it that some Brits really enjoy slagging off America, >and Americans? Mr. Gloster has gone through some of the reasons why Brits slag off Americans. I would add to it that many Brits (of my acquaintance, at least) know very little of America beyond what they have gleaned from the American media which is beamed overseas. Considering that much of this consists of crap sitcoms and films, it's no wonder they have a bad impression of us. Conversely, many Americans have a similarly inaccurate impression of Brits based on Merchant-Ivory films and suchlike. >Why is it that said Brits expect Americans to >>be able to sit through this kind of abuse and like it? The same reason some men expect women to snigger at sexist and misogynist jokes. Can't you take a joke? Don't be so uptight. It's nothing against you personally. Just relax! I lived in England for a year, attending the University of York. I was never directly the butt of any anti-American jokes, but all the same it was simply a given that Americans were stupid. "Of course, you're different," people would say to me, kindly. It got on my nerves sometimes. >You do know this about Anne Frank don't you? The whole album, not just >those songs. She's the girl he's in love with, who he wants to rescue in >"some sort of time machine". Holland 1945 is the most obvious song to >her, but she's all over the album. Rumour has it that they've now split >up. Could be just a rumour. That's Anne Mangum to you! Actually, I heard the album was partly inspired by Anne Frank but that's not the "concept" of the album. There is a concept, but Jeff Mangum ain't telling what it is. He's never said anything about those subliminal messages that tell you to listen to the album repeatedly, either, but I know they're there. >Don't i get an invite to fegtopia? Everyone is welcome. Even Eb. n. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:34:56 -0000 From: "Pamplemousse" Subject: Books IMHO, the best British writer at the moment is Iain Banks and I would not hesitate to recommend him to you all. He also writes very good SF as Iain M. Banks, his publishing alternating between SF and non-SF. As a fan I have to try and defend Terry Pratchett. While not all of his books are brilliant, there are gems amongst them. They're full of often quite clever humour and incredible words that are so useful in everyday conversation, such as widdershins for example. He's also the third top best-seller of the 90's in the UK, beaten only by the late Catherine Cookson and Dr David Hessayon (who writes gardening books). WHS, a leading bookseller, reckon that 1 in 25 books they sell is written by him, and he accounts for 1 in 5 of its SF sales. He's also active on the net and has been known to ask for advice on alt.fan.pratchett. AND he co-wrote a book with Neil Gaiman. Of course the fact that he's popular doesn't mean he's any good, look at the Spice Girls, but I like his work. - -- Rob 'Things are not always what they seem.' Phaedrus ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:42:31 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Loehr Subject: Re: adding to the improbable glut of feg-posts On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Natalie Jacobs wrote: > >Why is it that some Brits really enjoy slagging off America, > >and Americans? > > Mr. Gloster has gone through some of the reasons why Brits slag off > Americans. I would add to it that many Brits (of my acquaintance, at > least) know very little of America beyond what they have gleaned from the > American media which is beamed overseas. Considering that much of this > consists of crap sitcoms and films, it's no wonder they have a bad > impression of us. Conversely, many Americans have a similarly inaccurate > impression of Brits based on Merchant-Ivory films and suchlike. > > >Why is it that said Brits expect Americans to > >>be able to sit through this kind of abuse and like it? > > The same reason some men expect women to snigger at sexist and misogynist > jokes. Can't you take a joke? Don't be so uptight. It's nothing against > you personally. Just relax! Gotta agree. Just the other day on Chalkhills, talking about the amount of radio play the new XTC is getting, somebody from the UK said: >Subject: Lucky Americans >Just a few points: >1) I've recently found myself in the odd position of actually envying >the Americans on this list. It just doesn't seem to occur to these people that they're being insulting and offensive. The above writer probably now also feels justified in looking down on us 'muricans, since I did have the audacity to draw attention to his statement on the list. Monsieur Gloster is probably correct in stating that most Brits'(and other non-Americans') perceptions of the U.S. are taken from their contacts with US tourists and media, many/most of which are not necessarily in the least representative of the country. Is that an excuse for not looking at individuals instead of just clinging to stereotypes of other people and cultures? Which isn't to say that many folks in the US don't do exactly the same thing to foreigners, not to mention other races, religions, or sexual persuasions. Shit, why can't people just be open-minded and nice to each other? Eric ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:40:26 -0800 (PST) From: Danielle Subject: Re: [Non-RH] This really pisses me off; does it you too? Re this 'other people insult Americans too much' thing... Um, I think there's something you're all forgetting: America is *ubiquitous* in every other western society. It's the most powerful country in the world, and its popular culture is *so* dominant - usually at the expense of other cultures - that it seems to have a broad disregard for the countries it's culturally colonising. Gnat has a point about people getting reciprocal wrong ideas through watching telly. And people in less dominant countries tend to (in a rather contradictory manner) both adore *and* bitterly resent being forcefed Americanisms. Hence the nasty jokes against individual Americans. Not fair, not necessary, but one can understand where this comes from... hell, *I* (American father, American passport) was sorely tempted to slaughter the next US tourist (small minority or not) who came into the library where I worked and called NZ 'quaint'. ;) And *god*, some of the stuff people have said to me since I've been living in Louisiana - Gnat may have had pitying looks, but I've had all that and *then* some. After some particularly appalling remarks, I've even had my wincing American boyfriend apologise to me 'on behalf of his people'. :) None of this is particularly helpful to the poor persecuted individual Americans, of course. Not quite sure how to solve this problem... Danielle, rambling _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:57:10 -0500 From: "Chaney, Dolph L" Subject: RE: A post of negativity - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---- The darling Gnat said: > Ack... I hate Terry Pratchett so goddamn much... there's only so much of > that smirky, clever-clever shtick I can stand. At least Douglas Adams is > funny. > > Pratchett is on my hit-list of Inexplicably Popular Authors that also > includes Anne Rice and Piers Anthony. Buncha useless hacks... *grumble > grumble* > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ and somebody balked. Well. I just bought a hardcover of Pratchett's _Mort_ for $1. And on the inner flap: "Terry Pratchett is right up my alley -- fast, funny and going places." -- Piers Anthony Case rested. Dolph who is not wondering about what else is "up" Piers's "alley" np: St. Christopher + Sleeping Doormen, _Boring Secrets_ (same store, 49 cents, mistakenly thought it was a whole CD by Sarah Records artist St. Christopher, therefore terrible awful ripoff, depressed, only cheered by the $3 hardcover _Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency_ I also found, feeling much better aren't you glad you asked?) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:24:42 -0600 From: "JH3" Subject: Glut, glut, glut... GLUTTONS! Eric L writes: >Which isn't to say that many folks in the US don't do exactly the same >thing to foreigners, not to mention other races, religions, or sexual >persuasions. Shit, why can't people just be open-minded and nice to each >other? I think it's all those weird chemicals they put in the drinking water. (Fluoride, my butt!) And Danni L: >None of this is particularly helpful to the poor persecuted individual >Americans, of course. Not quite sure how to solve this problem... Easy - something I've been advocating for years: Vastly beefed-up foreign language requirements in American schools, and mandatory accent lessions for all citizens traveling to other English-speaking countries. But most importantly, we have to make wearing dark-colored socks with short pants a class-A felony! This legislation is loooooong overdue! Once all that's done, we can go anywhere we want, and we'll all just blend in and nobody will notice us - not even our own CIA guys! Oh, but just in case, we should make our passports look so much like the Canadians' (including the #$%@&!! maple leaves) that nobody can possibly tell them apart without using expensive UV scanners. John "fegtopia, schmegtopia" Hedges ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:10:11 +0000 From: "manitas de platano" Subject: Re: Glut, glut, glut... GLUTTONS! John "fegtopia, schmegtopia" Hedges said (in that thick american accent): > Oh, but just in case, we should make > our passports look so much like the Canadians' (including the #$%@&!! maple > leaves) that nobody can possibly tell them apart without using expensive UV > scanners. You'll never make them *taste* like ours! It's the water.. - -- Ross Overbury Montreal, Quebec, Canada ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:28:14 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Loehr Subject: Re: Glut, glut, glut... GLUTTONS! On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, manitas de platano wrote: > John "fegtopia, schmegtopia" Hedges said (in that thick american accent): > > > Oh, but just in case, we should make > > our passports look so much like the Canadians' (including the #$%@&!! maple > > leaves) that nobody can possibly tell them apart without using expensive UV > > scanners. > > You'll never make them *taste* like ours! It's the water.. > Do you mean the passports are maple flavored? And how does the water do that? Does the aroma of maple-flavored passports act like some sort of pheramone to make you more likeable to people in other countries and thus attractive than obnoxious Amercian peegs? And what about Bob and Doug MacKenzie? ;-} Eric ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:19:09 EST From: MARKEEFE@aol.com Subject: Re: [Non-RH] This really pisses me off; does it you too? In a message dated 99-02-11 07:43:58 EST, Mark writes: << I also think that every culture wants to feel superior to any other, and pointing out differences can constitute fuel for smugness. >> Geez, what a dumb-head Californyan thing to say. We Oregonyans would never say nothing that totally dumb. Geez. - ------Michael K. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:07:35 -0800 (PST) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: the Sultan of App On Thu, 11 Feb 1999 normal@grove.ufl.edu wrote: > Amos & Andy premiered in 1927 (though Sam & Henry was around for a few > years previous to that), and Fibber McGee & Molly, in 1935 (though > Smackouts was around before that). (and Jack Benny in 1932, though the > show wasn't technically his. He was the MC on a musical program for a > year.) I think that Amos & Andy qualifies as the killer app in radio, at > least during the early 30s. Theatres would stop the movies and play the > show over their PA system, because otherwise people would leave. But did people buy radios just to listen to Amos & Andy? Could The Great War have been radio's killer app? The question is: what made radio a necessity to most people. What made them go "hey... I could do that if I only had a radio!"? > Well, at least A&A was the Killer App for radio comedy. The Shadow (at > least back when it had Orson Welles) and Lux Radio Theatre were real > competitors in terms of market share and program quality. Orson Welles was 12 in 1927. He's a secondary killer... he made people buy radio who didn't already, I suppose... but that was most folks. Anyway... what about other technologies? Some of those were pretty good. J. ________________________________________________________ J A Brelin Capuchin ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:28:02 -0800 (PST) From: S Dwarf Subject: Re: purple & triangles (long & no RH) amadain wrote: > >On the news this morning, I saw a story about how Jerry Fallwell is > >sending out a warning to parents that one of the Teletubbies, Tinky > >Winky, is gay. > Oh dear. First Bert & Ernie, now ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:22:23 -0800 (PST) From: S Dwarf Subject: Re: more pac nw whitemale blah blah blah Insomnboy@aol.com wrote: > sdodge@midway.uchicago.edu writes: > > > It -was- the web home of a swell guy named Fred Phelps and his weirdo > > cult.....oh, I'm sorry, they're a "church", aren't they? Anyway, this guy > > sort of has to be seen/experienced to be understood. He's one of very few > > people I've actually thought I could kill without my karma being badly > > affected. > Yeah, he's the asshole who took a group of protesters to Matthew Shepard's > funeral. And also Randy Shilts (the guy who wrote _And The Band Played On_; wrote for the SF Examiner and for most of the 80's was really the only journalist in the US covering the AIDS crisis, day in day out). and any other even vaguely prominant gay or lesbian who's died in the past several years. > Talk about crass................ Taking a shit in the punchbowl at a party is crass. Organizing a protest at just about any funeral short of Hitler's is just plain evil. So any other breeders wanna commit the love that dare not speak it's name outside Phelps (one of maybe five people in the world i believe in torturing and drawing and quartering...). _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:40:31 +1300 From: james.dignan@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (James Dignan) Subject: TLA >Maybe radio's Killer App was just sports in general? Or heck, maybe it was >BABE RUTH? He's UNDOUBTEDLY the Killer App of baseball...without him, the >Black Sox Scandal might've wiped out the whole operation.... as, to Cricket, was Don Bradman and the bodyline series, and then later a similar boost was Kerry Packer's introduction of the limited overs game. In New Zealand the underarm delivery in the mid-80s led to a huge upswing in interest in the game (if you really want to know more details about any of these, contact me offlist!) Boxing certainly used to be a huge, huge sport in terms of audience (as, in some quarters, it undoubtedly still is), so perhaps it's not too surprising that it was a big memory of your dad's. >Oh, So you think you Can stump Ebony Bill, eh? Yes? Well, this is One time >when you've really tripped yourself Up, Sir. Bill knows Carl Palmer and >Robyn Hitchcock from A-Z, you see. Or perhaps You were just hoping to *Bug* Fuckin' A, Eb! It probably could be done... yikes! Would there be a A-> UK-> Red link in there somewhere? Or Up->Eye? James PS - thought for the day: Isn't Barney the dinosaur purple? Does that mean...? James Dignan___________________________________ You talk to me Deptmt of Psychology, Otago University As if from a distance ya zhivu v' 50 Norfolk Street And I reply. . . . . . . . . . Dunedin, New Zealand with impressions chosen from another time steam megaphone (03) 455-7807 (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:44:48 -0800 (PST) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: fegmaniax-digest V8 #49 On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, James Dignan wrote: > Capuchin wrote... > >> "I know the felt of Judas" > >This is amazing, James. > >I loved it. > >Damn. I wish I could write like that. Those images and allusions and > >transitions blew me away. Fun and introspective. Just a big wow. > :) thanks (blush). I know what some of it means, but I haven't a clue about > some of it... the carpet stanza works nicely, though... I think it's all nice and I can't wait to get your tape now. Fun fun fun in the fluffy chair. > >(Does anyone else really dig the way VIV looks in print? It's kind of > >Roman and geometric. It's three letters, but really only two. It's life, > >but it's IV, too. It's nine, but it's not IX. It's symmetrical. It's > >pushing down the two sides of I. Ok, it's just me.) > that, and the images and transitions... have you been using that herbal > snuff again? Now now. You know I'm a good kid. Don't go giving feglisters the wrong idea. I was just in a rather visual mood at the time. And marvelling for all kidns of reasons. Hey... I have spectacles today. Things look different. More later. Je. ________________________________________________________ J A Brelin Capuchin ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:56:43 -0800 (PST) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: Killer Apes On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Charles Gillett wrote: > On Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:36:43 +0000 (GMT), Michael Wolfe wrote: > >Men have walked on the moon. MEN HAVE WALKED ON THE MOON! > You actually *believe* that? I don't. I could do that shit in my basement. Do you realize how FAR the moon is from here? That was a pretty short trip for such a long haul. I don't buy it for a second. > On Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:47:22 -0800 (PST), Capuchin wrote: > >And I'm going to write to Michael privately (or just sit down at > >McMenamin's and chat with him) and try to clear up some of the things I > >said in passion. > What's the deal with this? If I went to the McDonald's on Washington near > the U of MN campus, I'd tell people "I went to the McDonald's on Washington > near the U of MN campus," even though all McDonald'ses are essentially the > same; but the Portlanders I've known just say "I went to McMenamin's," even > though from my experience the only thing the various McMenamin'ses have in > common is the fact that you can generally purchase some sort of beverage > there. And they're all equally comfortable and relaxing and interchangeable in that respect (except on a Friday or Saturday night, when Ringler's is a very stupid place to go... just ask John Barrington Jones and Michael K. and Michael Wolfe). McMenamin's is one of the best things about Portland. I wouldn't move to a neighborhood that didn't have one... and I don't even drink. They're champions of the city and just make me proud, damnit. > What else? I use Windows, mostly due to the laziness and apathy that > someone else mentioned...and now that I think about it, this isn't even > even my computer. There you go. Some people think they're getting away with something... somehow sticking it to Microsoft if they didn't pay for Windows. Man... it's the installed base they care about. Because that makes folks buy Microsoft developer tools and pay for the developer network... and that makes people develop more Windows only apps... and that makes computer manufacturers bundle Windows by default... and that makes me pretty angry. Stuff. Je. - -- ________________________________________________________ J A Brelin Capuchin ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:56:54 +1300 From: james.dignan@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (James Dignan) Subject: ...so the Aussie stuck his head through the fence! >New Zealand is one of the >dream destinations for my sweety and myself. I understand they have >some fairly anti-podean immigration laws, and they probably impound >pets for a long time. Maybe our "insiders" can help. sad but true on both counts. The second is due to the high incidence of agriculture in our exports. As to the first, if you've got a few qualifications, the rules can often be bent... >Zena must need "a big dork" for the next season un... You *do* know the original meaning of that term, I take it...? > >If we did it by june we could have a very long ski season this year. yupsiree - Coronet Peak, the Remarkables and Mount Hutt will all be up and running by then, and probably some of the North Island fields too (like Ruapehu - ever skiied on an active volcano?). > Why is it that some Brits really enjoy slagging off America, > and Americans? Why is it that said Brits expect Americans to > be able to sit through this kind of abuse and like it? why do the English enjoy slagging off the Irish? Why do the Scots slag off the English? Why do Anglo-Saxon Americans slag off Polish Americans? Why do Kiwis love slagging off Aussies? And vice versa? It's a worldwide phenomenon, probably due to us seeing another people that to all intents and purposes appears virtually identical, but which has attitudes or culture which seem so, well, foreign to us. We see ourselves reacting in ways that we think are illogical. The rare occasions when you get jokes aimed at races which appear radically different they are either caused by xenophobic attitudes or are jokes about these other races trying to fit to our societal standards. So yeah, the Brits tell jokes about the Yanks, because they see themselves acting oddly. Or they make jokes about asian immigrants because they see 'different' people trying to act like they do[1]. It happens, and it will continue to happen as long as similar seeming races have different cultures or different-seeming races try to conform to the same culture (i.e., probably forever). Americans, mostly, accept in good grace British jokes about loudmouthed Texans, inbred Appalachian cretins and a knowledge of the rest of the world equal to a British four-year-old, just as English, largely, accept with good grace the stereotypes of ra!ra! public school oiks and cloth capped Yorkshiremen with whippets. James [1] at this point I realise that the word 'they' is getting a little confusing. James Dignan___________________________________ You talk to me Deptmt of Psychology, Otago University As if from a distance ya zhivu v' 50 Norfolk Street And I reply. . . . . . . . . . Dunedin, New Zealand with impressions chosen from another time steam megaphone (03) 455-7807 (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:50:20 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: more pac nw whitemale pontificating As a public service (to the .0000001% of the public who subscribe to this list), I tried to search for Nexis for news articles about this Farm Bureau thing. Unfortunately, all I found was a mass of unrelated articles: "Local officials and ag groups disagree over a proposal covering large livestock operations" (Omaha World-Herald, Feb. 5, 1998), and the like. That's the problem with trying to research a group with such a generic name. (In fact, this is an example of a phenomenon that really pisses me off: groups with a political agenda giving themselves "stealth" names, that sound nonpartisan or even non-political. Accuracy in Media and its mirror image, Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting, come to mind. Swine! At least with the Christian Coalition or the Maoist Internationalist Movement you know where you stand. But anyway....) Maybe later I'll spend some time refining my search and come up with more useful results. On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Capitalism Blows wrote: > > > don't tell that to david duke and pat buchanan. besides, i'm not sure > how "extreme" their statements are considered, unfortunately. I have to agree with Eddie and disagree with Jeme here. They wouldn't be the first right-wing extremist organization to move beyond just fringe support in the US. And for all I know such right-wing views predominate among farmers and ranchers, the way vague left-wing views predominate in the English lit departments of American universities. On the other hand, I think their views (as listed on the APNM site) would be considered extreme by the average American. I'd be interested to find out how influential the Farm Bureau is. > wondering why you choose this as an example, rather than, say, saudi > arabia, which is probably the most fundamentalist country in the world > (and oh-by-the-way happens to be a major u.s. ally and, after israel and > turkey, possibly the major recipient of u.s. aid)? or the taliban, > another great friend of the state department. i'm not aware that > saddam's religion has much, if anything, to do with any sort of policy > he generates. maybe i'm just missing it. Unlike, say, Iran's government, Iraq's Ba'athist regime uses Islam the way they use socialism -- it's a justification for their policies but not a source of those policies.... Since when is the Taliban a great friend of the US? IIRC they were only formed a few years ago, long after the period of US aid to Islamic rebels fighting the Communists in Afghanistan. Since we bombed suspected terrorist camps in Taliban territory last year, I'd infer that the US government doesn't think too highly of the Taliban. > if you're talking about the refascisisation of europe and asia following > the war (and the american coziness with fascist/totalitarian regimes in > general, both before and after the war) then you're off your rocker. Oh, yeah, I remember that coming up in a previous debate. I'd like to see sources for this alleged refascisisisisitification, Eddie. (Preferrably titles or even page numbers, if you have them, not just "check Chomsky and Zinn"). As far as I know[1] nothing of the sort happened. I know of a few scattered incidents involving collaborators with the fascists (eg, Gen. MacArthur supporting a Phillippine collaborator who happened to be a personal friend), but no country or region was refascistified ... refascisized ... er, put back under a fascist regime. > besides which, as i've mentioned before, leftists don't need > to stand there and simply quote each other. the right hangs itself > quite ably. Here I'd like to bring up my traditional quibble that people aren't simply divided up into left and right, and not everyone who disagrees with the right necessarily agrees with your version of the left. > 1969, then revised in 1975, by the congressional research service, of > all instnaces of use of u.s. forces abroad up until 1945. from 1798 > until our invasion of the soviet union, there were 119. the > justification given in the vast majority is "to protect american > interests." or "to protect american lives and property when the > natives became troublesome." things like that. not a single mention > of containing communists. same is true of the 26 instances between > the soviet adventure and our entrance into the war. Of course! Before 1917, there was no international Communist threat as such. Between the Bolshevik takeover and WWII, the Soviet-run Comintern created some trouble, but not in the areas that the US then considered its sphere of influence (the Americas, plus of course actual US possessions in the Pacific). No surprise there. Does anyone, even the most extreme right-winger, claim that the US only ever intervened in other countries to fight Communism, even before Communism existed? Or are you just attacking a straw man[2] here? ObRobyn: Listened to some of the Storefront LP before work this morning. - --Chris [1] And I like to think that I know pretty far, since it makes those huge student loan payments a little more palatable. [2] I couldn't resist the opportunity to bring up straw men for the second time this week. ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V8 #54 ******************************