From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V8 #43 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Tuesday, February 9 1999 Volume 08 : Number 043 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: fegmaniax-digest V8 #41 [james.dignan@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (James Dig] Randi, Foglas Nunucq, Wango Tango... ["she.rex" ] Books ["she.rex" ] Re: Links-a-go-go (no, actually just politics) [normal@grove.ufl.edu] Re: Books ["Daniel Saunders" ] Re: Links-a-go-go (no, actually just politics) [Joel Mullins ] Re: fegmaniax-digest V8 #41 [dlang ] Re: Elliott, Surreal Posse, etc... [mrrunion@palmnet.net] Re: the I.D. gene [Eb ] Re: the I.D. gene [Christopher Gross ] Re: Two Recently Discussed Albums [Aaron Mandel ] song ID [Bayard ] Re: Links-a-go-go [Capuchin ] Re: Links-a-go-go [Bayard ] Re: Two Recently Discussed Albums ["JH3" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:32:40 +1300 From: james.dignan@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (James Dignan) Subject: Re: fegmaniax-digest V8 #41 >From: Tracy Aileen Copeland >Subject: Toast (was wqRe: Neil Gaiman and other random notes) wheee! and wheee! wheee! no. 1 was for the return of Tracy (what's kept ya, lass?) wheee! no 2 was for the post itself I raise a glass in honour of it and drink a, erm, healthy salute! however, the wheee!s are tempered by news of Randi. Dammit someone needs to go round and give that constitution of yours a good stern talking to! Thoughts are with. James PS - Mark - buy an inhaler James Dignan___________________________________ You talk to me Deptmt of Psychology, Otago University As if from a distance ya zhivu v' 50 Norfolk Street And I reply. . . . . . . . . . Dunedin, New Zealand with impressions chosen from another time steam megaphone (03) 455-7807 (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 22:41:06 From: "she.rex" Subject: Randi, Foglas Nunucq, Wango Tango... Randi: So sorry to hear you're back in the hospital - hope you feel better soon and are able to catch Storefront & Robyn! Dave: loved the story - keep it coming Even Eb: loved the Nugent lyric! Don't remember this well at all - maybe I just couldn't understand the screaming? (forgive my apparent lack of interest in the action figures) Stuff like this is a big part of what I like about this list, too, apart from RH of course, so please keep it up. (even the clashes are fun, as long as I'm not in them!) Another great thing about this list is the music, movie and (now) book recommendations. I think this is a terrific idea and it would be awesome (dood!/dewd!) to have a page for each. I would even do the coding if eddie is too overworked (not to usurp anyone's anything, mind you, just offering). I am too, but would make time for this! I would like to contribute something out of appreciation. I don't have a site yet, but do write web pages as a hobby so have a few things lying around so to speak. Something like this would provide impetus to get it going. The only reason I post so seldom - aside from being insanely busy - is that so many times someone else posts exactly my thoughts on the current subject(s). It's almost scary! Also, I get digest version and hate to be a cause of too many _me too_ posts unless there's something substantial to add. >Oh, yes, the Sureeal >Posse is still there, ladies and gentleman. We have seen the Posse and >the Posse is us. Long may it live! She.Rex p.s. thanks all for the help (mostly privately) on my old records list! soon to be playing: Mark Gloster and Big Rubber Shark - just came today! - --------------------------------- Obligatory ending lyrics (favorite verses 2 & 4): The Ballrooms of Mars You gonna look fine Be primed for dancing You're gonna trip and glide All over the trembling plane Your diamond hands Will be stacked with roses And wind and cars And people of the past I'll call you thing Just when the moon sings And place your face in stone Upon the hill of stars And gripped in the arms Of the changeless madman We'll dance our lives away In the ballrooms of Mars You talk about day I'm talking 'bout night time When monsters call out The names of men Bob Dylan knows And I'll bet Alan Freed did There are things in night That are better not to behold You dance With your lizard leather boots on And pull the strings That change the faces of men You diamond browed hag You're a gutter-gaunt ganster John Lennon knows your name And I've seen his - - Marc Bolan (T.Rex, as always) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 22:39:35 From: "she.rex" Subject: Books Some off-the-cuff recommendations (_surreal_ being the word of the day): Mark Helprin - This one's my favorite. A great novelist and short-story writer. _Winter's Tale_ and _A Soldier of the Great War_ are supposed to be his best, though I also like _Refiner's Fire_ and _Memoir From Antproof Case_. Likes to mix the surreal and the real and blur the edges a lot. Definitely one to be digested, not devoured. Some passages are absolutely transcendant and I have to put the book down and just [?] meditate? recover? prawn? something like that. Jorge Luis Borges - short stories, also surreal Stanislaw Lem - Viv, Daniel Saunders, Natalie & Aaron commented on him recently. I have _The Cyberaid: Fables for the Cybernetic Age_, _Tales of Pirx the Pilot_ and _Memoirs Found In a Bathtub_, but have only read _The Cyberaid_. (made a free-form copy of the line drawing of Trurl to stick on my wall, btw - a robot dressed in a toga and sitting on a Greek column in The Thinker pose. seemed appropriate) Others listed inside the cover are _The Futurological Congress_, _The Investigation_ and _Star Diaries_. Gabriel Garcia Marquez (look under G, not M, in the library or book store) - novels and short stories J.R.R. Tolkein (obvious, so I won't bore you with details) Ray Bradbury - surreal and often chilling sci-fi Anthony Burgess - _A Clockwork Orange_ William Goldman - _The Princess Bride_ - the movie was great but the book is better Umberto Eco - a preference shared with The Great Feathered One - great page on the Librynth. (and might I just say that Tim Curry does excellent performances of _The Island Of the Day Before_ and _Foucault's Pendulum_ on audio? Eek! ducking tomatoes...) C.S. Lewis - Narnia series, sci-fi trilogy, _Dark Tower and Other Stories_ Madeleine L'Engle - novels (not just the Time trilogy) Douglas Adams - Hitchhiker's Guide series, Dirk Gently, and now Starship Titanic! Neil Gaiman - awesome! To call _Sandman_ a comic book series gives the wrong impression; it's way above the usual DC offerings. Novels: _Neverwhere_ and the new one, _Stardust_. Edgar Rice Burroughs - action figures in sci-fi settings, sometimes bordering on the surreal (aside from the suspension of belief required in putting these characters in these settings in the first place). _The Eternal Savage_, Tarzan series, Mars series, Pellucidar series. Musclemen battle giant beasts for beautiful maidens. Very physical. Great mindless stuff to veg on. Besides, lots of it is free for the downloading so geeks like me can read them on their Psions. Yay! John Kennedy Toole - A Confederacy of Dunces. Don't remember this too well, but I intend to read it again soon, since the memories I *do* have are of laughing a lot. George MacDonald - Fairy tales and novels. A large part of my little library is devoted to fairy tales. Jules Verne - sci-fi w/emphasis on the sci, not really fantasy Isaac Asimov - Foundation series (was _pi_ based on this idea? sounds like it but I didn't see the movie), Robot series (his laws of robotics and the neural net/positronic brain ideas are the basis for Star Trek's Data character) - cool how he merged these two series together in the end (of his life, that is) Pablo Neruda - Chilean poet (does this count?) Also anything illustrated by Arthur Rackham or Maurice Sendak :) She.Rex - ---------------------- Dragon head Machine of lead Cadillac king Dancer in the midnight Dragon head The Planet Queen Perchance to dream She used my head Like a revolver The world's the same Well it's all right Love is what you want Flying saucer take me away Gimme your daughter... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:50:40 -0500 (EST) From: normal@grove.ufl.edu Subject: Re: Links-a-go-go (no, actually just politics) On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, Capuchin wrote: > You can't argue with those objectivists. It's a religion for those guys. > They have a very tight logical argument that's based on a very cruel, cold > premise. Personally, I think the world they would construct would lead to > quick tyranny. But I can't argue with them. The best you can make is an > emtional appeal, which, as anyone can tell you, is no argument at all. Now, I'm no fan of objectivism, but it seems to me that there are a lot of egotists and just plain bastards who go around looking for something to justify their selfish beliefs. Rand's works happen to appeal to that sort of person. It's unfair to base your opinion of Objectivism on that, rather in the same way that you can't look at Saddam Hussein and declare from his example that Islam is a bust, but I think that there are serious flaws with Objectivism besides that (like the way that people can't really approach anything objectively because we have very limited knowledge of real situations, or the way that, since your average objectivist believes that they thought things out thoroughly and arrived at the logical conclusion, and failing to think things out thoroughly etc. is evil, yr. avg. obj. can very easily rationalize folks who disagree with them as evil or stupid.) Of course, there's this Obj. semi-troll[1] in soc.history.what-if, whom I may quote at you someday if the mood strikes me. And some of them like Rush, which just makes it worse. 1: Just on the fine line between "troll" and "really vocal bastard". Thinks Pinochet is the best thing since sliced bread, and begins threads like "wouldn't it be nice if no-one helped anyone ever, and there was a system for keeping socialists down where they belong", if that's any indication. There's another one like him who espouses something that looks like a combination of the worst parts of stereotypical feudalism, fascism and objectivism ("wouldn't it be nice if 1% of the world's population controlled everything, destroyed the middle class and exerted godlike power over the remaining 99%." A loyal supporter of the Second Reich, oddly enough. Since we're on the subject of 'scary internet things'... http://www.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=432465756 ) >All sources are biased. All of them. Some people trust one kind of >bias, ie: biased towards monied interests. Some people trust another, >ie: biased towards information that normally gets suppressed by the >monied interests. Well, technically yes. The problem is that some sources are biased to the point of inaccuracy. I'm a bit suspicious of this because, well, Eddie has quoted some less-than-accurate sources here before. Mainstream news might not tell you everything, but what they do tell you generally is true. They sell based on their reputation for accuracy. Some alternative media (and I've never heard of Counterpunch, so I can't comment on it directly) report a lot of things, some of which are false, very badly slanted or poorly researched. I've seen alt. papers which sell themselves on the basis of their political leanings. I'm sure there are some good, reliable alt. media out there, but thus far, I haven't been too impressed by what I've seen. And Eddie said something about massive gov't involvement being needed to industrialized, which is true. Industrialization requires infrastructure, and infrastructure is very expensive to build and maintain. (In c1870, it cost about 60,000 British pounds to build a mile of railroad in England. I'm not sure if that was in 1870 pounds or 1990 pounds, but in either case, it's a lot of money to go throwing around, and it would take something along the lines of a government to make it profitable [because if it isn't profitable, rates are going to be so high as to discourage use, and people aren't going to build them]. I don't think that government or business alone had the ability to create infrastructure of the scale necessary to industrialize.) And as for Marx? He was a product of his time. Industrialization and modernization had an odd effect on people, and you really have to read Marx in that context. (If anyone really wants to know what sort of effect, ask and I'll tell you.) And I thought I saw my initials superscripted above all sorts of expressions that people like retaining the rights to, but it was you instead. Terrence Marks normal@grove.ufl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:36:35 -0800 (PST) From: "Daniel Saunders" Subject: Re: Books Hey, great list! I just wanted to add... > Stanislaw Lem - Viv, Daniel Saunders, Natalie & Aaron commented on him > recently. I have _The Cyberaid: Fables for the Cybernetic Age_, _Tales of > Pirx > the Pilot_ and _Memoirs Found In a Bathtub_, but have only read _The > Cyberaid_. > (made a free-form copy of the line drawing of Trurl to stick on my wall, > btw - > a robot dressed in a toga and sitting on a Greek column in The Thinker pose. > seemed appropriate) Others listed inside the cover are _The Futurological > Congress_, _The Investigation_ and _Star Diaries_. Of these, the Cyberiad, Star Diaries, and The Futurological Congress are by far the most entertaining. Some of his other stuff is more philosophical, and although the books are just as brilliant (Fiasco describes a bizarre first contact scenario that makes Contact look like Independence Day) the first three are much more accessible. As for my own favourite authors, apart from George Orwell, one I really like is Terry Pratchett. If you're a fan of Douglas Adams, you'll really dig it. Same sense of humour, but with actual characters and plot lines along with the ideas, in a fantasy rather than science fiction scenario. He's written tons of them, and they're almost all delightful, but I think maybe his best is Reaper Man, about what happens when Death (a prominent character in the books) gets fired. Great stuff. Daniel Saunders All them famous people Wash off in the rain Leave not even a puddle baby, All you leave is your name (I've got no name) - Leppo etc. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 02:45:53 -0800 From: Joel Mullins Subject: Re: Links-a-go-go (no, actually just politics) normal@grove.ufl.edu wrote: > Now, I'm no fan of objectivism, but it seems to me that there are a lot of > egotists and just plain bastards who go around looking for something to > justify their selfish beliefs. Rand's works happen to appeal to that sort > of person. Well, I think you're overlooking the underlying theme in Rand's works. Her main point is that people should be paid according to their merit, instead of their need. This goes against the people who would say "Bill Gates is already a rich bastard, why does he need another 10 million?" But Rand would say that it doesn't matter if he needs it or not. All that matters is that he earned the money and so he deserves it. I completely agree with this. The story of the engine factory in Atlas Shrugged shows what would happen if we started paying people based on need and not merit. So, I do see a lot of positive aspects in Objectivism. Rand just wanted people to start living off of their own abilities and quit being parasites living off the minds of others. I don't see anything inherently wrong with this idea. However, I do see how Objectivism can be a bad thing. I really got into Rand's philosophy the first time I read her books. But then I realized how cold I had become. I basically learned that while Rand's philosophy can be a positive thing, it can also be extremely dangerous. I reread her novels a couple of years ago. During, the second time through, I was able to really look at her philosophy critically. Furthermore, I think it's a waste to even discuss Ayn Rand or Objectivism unless you've read We The Living. It's easier to understand and criticize her philosophy once you understand how she came to think that way. Objectivism was her reaction to the Bolsheviks taking over Russia. And she did come up with some good ideas. But I think that characters like Howard Roark and John Galt are completely unrealistic and I don't think I'd ever want to live like them. But I'd rather be John Galt than Peter Keating. Basically, I'd rather be an intelligent asshole than a stupid pussy. I guess I'd just like to find some middle ground. Well, I could go on forever. I'll quit. - --Joel P.S. I'd reply to the rest of Terrence's discourse, but it's 3 o'clock in the morning and I'm really fucking tired. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:03:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Stewart Russell 3295 Analyst_Programmer Subject: Re: Links-a-go-go >>>>> "Capuchin" == Capuchin writes: Capuchin> Personally, I'd rather read Capuchin> . Don't forget to read the second-rate saw playing article by, erm, y'know... - -- Stewart C. Russell Analyst Programmer, Dictionary Division stewart@ref.collins.co.uk HarperCollins Publishers use Disclaimer; my $opinion; Glasgow, Scotland ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:33:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Stewart Russell 3295 Analyst_Programmer Subject: The Creosote Council > Anyone interested in finding out more about 100 per cent coal tar creosote > is welcome to write to: The Creosote Council, c/o Tar Industries Services, > Mill Lane, Wingerworth, Chesterfield to obtrain a copy of their free fact > sheet Creosote-The Facts and the Fiction'. This has been a public service announcement. And yes, "The Creosote Council" would be a lame name for a band. - -- Stewart C. Russell Analyst Programmer, Dictionary Division stewart@ref.collins.co.uk HarperCollins Publishers use Disclaimer; my $opinion; Glasgow, Scotland ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:23:55 +0930 From: dlang Subject: Eddies contribution >But do not overlook that splendid recent contribution from the Qu- I mean, Eddie! That was wonderful-- yeah that was good, Eddies keeping the flag flying. RE my earlier comments on the dearth of weird posts. Der Grossenfuhrer hit the nail on the head, really I'm missing the proliferation of weirdness that was around around six months or more at the time of the Quail party, as well as some of the characters that were around then. . Also Fegs please do not think that I am reflecting on the worth of your recent comments, Its just that it does not interest *me* as much as the other stuff.That doesn't mean its crap .All mail lists are cyclical and the content ebbs and flows ( whoops what have I said.....) dave (trying to be cogent and failing miserably ) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:28:14 +0930 From: dlang Subject: Re: fegmaniax-digest V8 #41 >what the hell was the point of making us all look at *that*? cogent discussion material dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 06:31:00 -0800 From: mrrunion@palmnet.net Subject: Re: Elliott, Surreal Posse, etc... Hey all, Now I've seen my name bandied about recently, in a "where are they now" sorta way. I'm pleased to say I'm still alive and semi- kicking. Just haven't had a great deal to blabber about lately. Good to hear from dlang and Senor Quail too. So, seeing as Elliott Smith looks to be dripping into Florida for a few days mid- March, any Florida feggers into catching a show? Unfortunately, the Monday 3/15 Orlando show will be the only one I can make. Terrence? She.Rex? Anyone for a roadtrip? (C'mon everyone...you all want to see what these guys look like, right? Let's chant "fegfoto...fegfoto...") I caught Dylan last week with my wife and a few friends at his Daytona gig. Wonderful show. First time I've ever seen him. Needless to say, I've been on a major Dylan kick now for months. Just this weekend I blew well over a $100 just trying to make another big dent into his catalog. I'm maybe halfway there. (Sheesh!) Any good new music recommendations out there? I drifted through the big Disney Virgin Megastore for hours without finding one thing that really struck my eye (or ear). I guess I'll just have to sit back and wait for the Black Foliage OTC album to come out. I'm proud to say I've sorta slightly slipped into the ranks of the great Fegbands. I've now got my own coffeeshop gig on Monday afternoons. Yesterday was the first time, and daresay I think it went pretty damn good. I could get into this... On Movies: Saw "Thin Red Line" - decent movie, but too long by a 1/3. Just a bit disjointed, but maybe that was the point. Fave video of late: Smoke Signals. See it. Okay, see y'all later, Mike p.s. Ken Sabatini, you out there? Email me. I'm looking for a couple o' rekkids. __________________________________________ Sent using WebInbox. "Your email gateway." Check us out at http://www.webinbox.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 05:53:55 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Re: the I.D. gene DLang: >>what the hell was the point of making us all look at *that*? > >cogent discussion material Why not act your age, and leave these teenage snits behind? Eb PS Who has seen "Life is Beautiful"? Is it really THAT good? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:31:47 -0500 (EST) From: Christopher Gross Subject: Re: the I.D. gene On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Eb wrote: > >>what the hell was the point of making us all look at *that*? > > > >cogent discussion material > > Why not act your age, and leave these teenage snits behind? The irony here is too obvious to be worth pointing out. So I won't. - --Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:13:10 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: Two Recently Discussed Albums On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Capuchin wrote: > No matter what the encoding method, there will always be a way to freely, > cheaply, and easily re-record and redistribute. That's the whole point of > information revolution. It's the way things work. hit albums still sell a huge number of copies even after the point has been reached where everyone who might want to buy it knows someone they can tape it from. and i don't think most people care all that much about sound quality. > For every established band that has the clout (and gall) to extort cash > from their casual listeners, there are a hundred smaller bands willing to > give you their new album in order to develop a fanbase. but this is often speculation on their part, figuring it's what they need to do if they ever want to hit the big time. most bands can't come anywhere close to surviving by touring. and why is it extortion to charge for a product? > It's already happening with software. Sun giving away an operating system to sell more computers is not the same thing as Sun Ra giving away records to sell more concert tickets, because one is a much more plausible way to stay in business than the other. a ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:22:38 -0500 (EST) From: Bayard Subject: song ID today driving to work i heard a song that seemed to be called "Ebs". Is this a slang term? it went like this: Ebs, Some people would robyn their mother, for some Ebs. Some people kill their brother, for some EBs. So before we go any further, I want my Ebs. So what are "Ebs"? Some new terrible drugs? ObEb: I dreamed last night I visited Eb and hung out with him. He was really nice! On Capuchin's recommendation we went to see "Antz". I don't remember what letter grade it got, though.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:16:58 -0800 (PST) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: Links-a-go-go On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Stewart Russell 3295 Analyst_Programmer wrote: > >>>>> "Capuchin" == Capuchin writes: > Capuchin> Personally, I'd rather read > Capuchin> . > Don't forget to read the second-rate saw playing article by, erm, > y'know... So... err... I guess you've already seen that page, huh? J. ________________________________________________________ J A Brelin Capuchin ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:02:19 -0500 (EST) From: Bayard Subject: Re: Links-a-go-go I didn't find the saw playing, where is it? I did see this: http://freeweb.pdq.net/headstrong/egg.htm Gasp! My god-- it's a Quail's egg! Someone notify the Friends of Feg! On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Capuchin wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Stewart Russell 3295 Analyst_Programmer wrote: > > >>>>> "Capuchin" == Capuchin writes: > > Capuchin> Personally, I'd rather read > > Capuchin> . > > Don't forget to read the second-rate saw playing article by, erm, > > y'know... > > So... err... I guess you've already seen that page, huh? > J. > ________________________________________________________ > > J A Brelin Capuchin > ________________________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:48:49 -0600 From: "JH3" Subject: Re: Two Recently Discussed Albums Aaron Mandel writes: >hit albums still sell a huge number of copies even after the point has >been reached where everyone who might want to buy it knows someone >they can tape it from. Okay, but isn't that mainly because those of us who grew up in the pre-InfoRevolution days (i.e., pre-1994) are culturally acclimated to the idea of music being associated with a purchased artifact, such as a vinyl LP or CD? What worries me is that we're teaching our beloved little brats to get everything they want from teevee, the internet, etc. at such an early age, they'll see *that* as the normal way to obtain almost anything. I suppose it all depends on whether humans want to collect material possessions instinctively, or based only on learned behavior... There's also the moral argument of people paying musicians for their work because it's their intellectual property and it's the right thing to do, but I doubt that'll deter people much longer. Okay, I'm a pessimist. Capuchin's original argument, which I misinterpreted then and may still be misinterpreting now, was that the big technological benefit for musicians is that they'll soon (if not now) have the means of producing their products themselves without having to sign financial-enslavement deals with record companies the way they do now. Which is just fine, except that they'll still want to maintain control over their product. And to do that they'll need some sort of heavy-muscle organization to protect them and their rights, just as labels and management companies do now. Once the record labels have been stripped of their manufacturing and marketing role, they'll probably just resurface as what they really are now: mobsters, racketeers, and worst of all, lobbyists. (Okay, I'm a *really nasty* pessimist.) It might not happen in our lifetimes, but eventually the infrastructure will exist to make it possible to download the equivalent of an entire audio CD in just a few seconds. (And who knows, maybe everybody will get their jewel-box inserts as printable bitmaps from www.alternatech.net/jh3/robyn or some godawful site like that.) Musicians are going to have to come up with some awfully creative gimmicks to sell pre-packaged music once that starts happening. (Hey, "win a date with Robyn - free chance with every purchase!" On the other hand, I guess less packaging would be better for the environment...) >and i don't think most people care all that much about sound quality. BTW, I agree completely with everything else you wrote, Aaron. I don't care what anybody says, nobody but superstars and solo acoustic acts with name recognition can make decent money from touring, period. And last week Stephen Buckalew wrote: >Maybe artist who put their music on the web can sell advertising based on >the number of "hits" they get, and make money that way...kinda like >one-band radio stations. Or to keep the fans interested, collectives of >like-minded musicians/artists can start up art/lit/music pages based on >common aesthetics and sell advertising space on the site. ;-) Maybe... But that sounds awfully idealistic. Even if musicians have the time and energy to hire (or become) their own advertising-sales force, accountants, bill collectors, and designers in addition to making music, the competition in web-based advertising is overwhelming and getting worse - and I can't believe the money you'd make from it would come anywhere close to the amount you can make from even modest record sales, even if there's less initial risk involved. Then again, I could always be wrong. XXX HOT EXOTIC BABES WANT YOU!!! XXX FREE DOWNLOADS - www.tinseltown-titty-parade.com - XXX - CHECK IT OUT NOW!!! XXX Whoa, where the hell did THAT come from!?!? Sorry about that, folks... Must be another one of those right-wing policy think-tank links. John "Nobody snuggles with Max Power!" Hedges ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V8 #43 ******************************