From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V7 #381 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Wednesday, October 7 1998 Volume 07 : Number 381 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Yip [Ross Overbury ] St. Timothy Horton (update) [Ross Overbury ] Re: Yip [Mark_Gloster@3com.com] Re: Yip [amadain ] RE: Yip ["Partridge, John" ] Re: Yip [Capuchin ] RE: Yip [Eb ] RE: Yip [Mark_Gloster@3com.com] Hits of the 70s, Yipyipyipyipyip [james.dignan@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Jame] Re: DB what about SMARTIE MINE!!! [Bayard ] Another (brief) Storefront Review [MARKEEFE@aol.com] Re: Hits of the 70s and yippee! dogs! [amadain ] Re: yippee! dogs! erf! (1 percent RH) [amadain ] Re: Yip [Stewart Russell 3295 Analyst_Programmer ] Re: DB what about SMARTIE MINE!!! [Russ Reynolds ] OK, so he's not in MOJO's top 100 vocalists ... [Ross Overbury Subject: Re: Yip Susan said: > That along with the idea of Death coming at last not as a ghoul, not as a > shrouded dark figure with a scythe, but as an insistent yipping dog barking > incessantly around the bed, really makes the song for me. > Is that generally known? It's news to me. The only association I ever made with the Yips was those alien beings on Sesame Street. Yes, I've always assumed this was a personal thing and not Robyn's intent. I didn't have a clue what he intended. - -- Slow Guy Montreal, Quebec, Canada email: rosso@cn.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 98 17:56:28 EDT From: Ross Overbury Subject: St. Timothy Horton (update) The Image is gone. The Son of Man removed His face from the wall of the Tim Horton's Donut shop just after the staff changed out 3 of the lightbulbs. Sigh. I'm gonna eat a whole box of Timbits. - -- Ross Overbury Montreal, Quebec, Canada email: rosso@cn.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:34:09 -0700 From: Mark_Gloster@3com.com Subject: Re: Yip While y'all were yipping about, I thought I'd add a salting from my own shaker. Robyn has said that the "yipping" was about all the doctors trying to get Raymond to have a surgery that could prolong his life by the length of just a few minutes, even though that surgery didn't make any sense. I'm sure he's also described it in other ways. If Robyn were here right now, he might well like Susan's interpretation better- I probably do too. When someone writes a song that in some way is deeply personal, but visual and not concrete, this allows the listener to grab the visual hooks in it and create meaning for themselves. Robyn has an extremely rare talent as a songwriter to offer us lyric that stands up to poetic scrutiny; including the personal takes that are different from his own; or that the work is mere pop gimmickry; or that it's about the surgeon's dog, Digby, who is begging for table scraps in the operating room. I certainly don't want to argue with Eb about what _his_ meaning of one of those really deep Claudine Longet songs are. I think his answers might be terribly frightening, anyway. Thank you for your indulgence, - -Professor of sharkology (got my degree in a cornflakes box) I'm pretty sure another thing Shakespeare never said was: "Backing up will result in severe tire damage." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:54:51 -0600 From: amadain Subject: Re: Yip >Susan said: > >> That along with the idea of Death coming at last not as a ghoul, not as a >> shrouded dark figure with a scythe, but as an insistent yipping dog barking >> incessantly around the bed, really makes the song for me. >> > >Is that generally known? It's news to me. It's generally known to those who have imaginations similar to mine. In other words, probably not :). That's just the way it strikes me. Love on ya, Susan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:51:32 -0700 From: "Partridge, John" Subject: RE: Yip See, now this is why I like the list: articulate opinions about Robyn's work. I am delurking momentarily to 1) say how much I enjoy people saying what they think about the Yip Song (and other songs) and 2) to let off some delayed steam I had built up hearing the off-topic squabbling from a couple of weeks ago. I know it's only one voice, but I humbly plead with all of you non-lurkers, please stop beating on each other. If you have an opinion about Robyn's work let's hear it; if you have a bone to pick, a wrong to right, a last word, just let it ride, OK? Some of the people on this list are abrasive by nature, meandering by nature (c'est moi!), monomaniacal by nature, or just plain dumb. We can't agree on who they are and even if we could they would continue posting anyway. So can we please not respond to each instance of their natural expression? Or at least *not on the list*. Otay, steam all gone now. So, if you're still reading, here are some opinions of mine I'll throw in the ring. Robyn's often stated process of lyric writing is very iterative and layered and I think that accounts for a style which I find both intoxicating and annoying. Intoxicating because the lyrics rarely stay internally consistent and grounded in a recognizable reality. So the lyrics are like a highly diffuse probability "cloud" around an indistinct center. For me that makes them highly evocative but I often can't tell what they evoke - that's not meant to be cute or glib, it's confusing for me, all the more because I like the sensation. I count Birdshead, Heliotrope, maybe Flavour of Night in this group. On the other hand (big breath), when his approach doesn't work its magic for me, I get really disappointed with what appear to me to be cheap gimmicks/novelty throw-aways. Instead of being evocative, the images lack any "diffuse probability cloud" whatsoever. Rather, they are absolutely distinct and, within Robyn's body of work, very cliched. I count Bass, Globe of Frogs, sometimes Furry Green Atom Bowl in this group. This is just my feelings about his lyrics, mind you. There are lots of songs where the tune is what I connect more strongly with. The Yip Song, for me, falls more into the first category than the second. This may be off-base, Eb, but I'm interpreting your reasons for disliking the Yip Song as a case of my Category 2 problem. The three stories of old men, the central Vera Lynn vision, the barking dog, all worked harmoniously for me - I had never thought of the barking dog as the insistence of death and I like it - now I have to figure out whether I "believe" it, if you know what I mean. I probably should have started with this, but I have a comment on art and sincerity. I think sincerity is art-canceling. Sincerity is a great character trait but it is mutually exclusive with art. Art, for me, has everything to do with camouflage, trickery, gamesmanship. I'm hard over with Nabokov on this point. When I experience something esthetically pleasing, I call it "good art" and delight in the artist's mastery of his medium and his manipulation of my experience. Maybe I'm needlessly splitting hairs but the distinction feels important: I've never read The Diary of Anne Frank but I am prepared to believe it is a profoundly emotional experience. I *have* read The Basketball Diaries and it was a profoundly emotional experience for at leas this reader. The first is far more important historically but it isn't art. The second is unquestionably art, maybe bad maybe good, but definitely art. So I find Robyn's efforts at distancing himself from the audience, distancing himself from the material, and all his other ploys and indirectness to be totally artistically commendable. Sometimes they badly misfire (my Category 2 problem) but more often than not, I dig the end result. I mean his stuff is all highly intellectualized heartache right? Heartache over lost love, heartache over a fractured world, and heartache over our individual insignificance. "heartache over our indiviudal insignifiance"? Yow. Sorry everyone, I must have thought this was being graded. So anyway, lots of heartache out there. Big deal. The last thing I want in my art is *sincerity* about it; that's like asking for more "realism" in a Van Gogh. > -----Original Message----- > From: amadain [mailto:sdodge@midway.uchicago.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 3:44 PM > To: fegmaniax@smoe.org > Subject: Re: Yip > > > > >Possibly the image of the nurses looking like forces' > sweetheart Vera Lynn > >is clearer to middle-aged English people like me than to > international > >fegdom - but all poets use images which are clear to them > but have to be > >explained to other readers. > > No, it was clear to me. > > Did anyone else think the "Molly" mentioned was Molly Bloom? > The idea of a > Vera Lynn/Molly Bloom madonna/whore dichotomy pleases me muchly. > > That along with the idea of Death coming at last not as a > ghoul, not as a > shrouded dark figure with a scythe, but as an insistent > yipping dog barking > incessantly around the bed, really makes the song for me. > > >from a nursery rhyme "This old man came rolling home" - > perhaps it was too > >obvious to mention. I assume that the connection is that he > learned this > >nursery rhyme from his father 40 years ago. > > Well maybe, maybe not. With things like nursery rhymes it's > hard to know > where one exactly learned them, and I think it might be > reaching slightly > to suggest that his father taught it to him. Who knows > really? But I think > it was just handy. > > Love on ya, > Susan > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:10:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: Yip > Susan said: > > That along with the idea of Death coming at last not as a ghoul, not as a > > shrouded dark figure with a scythe, but as an insistent yipping dog barking > > incessantly around the bed, really makes the song for me. On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Ross Overbury wrote: > Is that generally known? It's news to me. > The only association I ever made with the Yips was those alien beings > on Sesame Street. Yes, I've always assumed this was a personal thing > and not Robyn's intent. I didn't have a clue what he intended. Robyn has given all kinds of explanations for this song and the Yips and Vera Lynn's appearance and not all of them are completely understandable or really even reasonably valid. For example, that thing on Spectre is complete garbage in my book. However, at Storefront Hitchcock in San Francisco, Robyn gave a very cogent explanation of this song to a girl that, when given an opportunity to ask Robyn absolutely anything, asked what Vera Lynn is. Bah. Learn to use reference materials, I say. Robyn said that this story is about a man dying of cancer. He's fading in and out of consciousness as the morphine drip dip-drips. Beside his bed at home is a "What you call over here a Scotty Dog" (which is "about half the size of a salmon, but not nearly as supple") and it's yipping and making heaps of noise. And he's dreaming of Vera Lynn and his illness and fading in and out between the three states: the fantasy, the memory, and the reality. Yeah, it was all pretty cool. And yeah, it would be a little silly for you to think that Robyn intended the allusion to Sesame Street. Dying. Je. ________________________________________________________ J A Brelin Capuchin ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:17:15 -0700 From: Eb Subject: RE: Yip J. Partridge: >I probably should have started with this, but I have >a comment on art and sincerity. I think sincerity >is art-canceling. Sincerity is a great character trait >but it is mutually exclusive with art. Art, for me, >has everything to do with camouflage, trickery, gamesmanship. >The last thing I want in my art is *sincerity* about it; that's >like asking for more "realism" in a Van Gogh. Spoken like a hardened post-modernist. ;) Oh, irony, irony, irony...will we never tire of irony? Practicing my hipster smirk, Eb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:22:55 -0700 From: Mark_Gloster@3com.com Subject: RE: Yip >"heartache over our indiviudal insignifiance"? Yow. >Sorry everyone, I must have thought this was being graded. Even Eb should give you at least a B+. ;-) I bet we'd all like to hear from you more often. You are kind of the opposite of Eddie Tews in some ways, no? Humor, not poetry, not art. happies, - -markg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:09:39 +1300 From: james.dignan@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (James Dignan) Subject: Hits of the 70s, Yipyipyipyipyip >>I was watching some infomercial about a Time-Life "Hits of the 70s" >>package. Lots of Bay City Rollers, Gary Wright, etc. Not one mention of, >>say, Pink Floyd, Stevie Wonder, the Doobie Brothers, Supertramp, Led >>Zeppelin or the Bee Gees. My notions of the 70s are all second-hand, but >>weren't those groups the definition of "Hits of the 70s"? > >Well, licensing may be part of the explanation, but also it's a conceptual >issue. Those compilations are designed to be collections of lightweight, >fluffy AM-radio hits which are mostly forgotten but make you say "Oh yeah, >THAT song!!" when you hear them again. in this context it's worth remembering that compilations of 'the best of the sixties' invariably never have anything by the Beatles. It may be that the rights to music by bigger bands are simply harder to obtain and so in order to turn the buck more quickly 'the best of the sixties' suddenly turns into Dave Dee Dozy Beaky Mick & Tich and Gary Puckett and the Union Gap[1] >Did anyone else think the "Molly" mentioned was Molly Bloom? The idea of a >Vera Lynn/Molly Bloom madonna/whore dichotomy pleases me muchly. > >That along with the idea of Death coming at last not as a ghoul, not as a >shrouded dark figure with a scythe, but as an insistent yipping dog barking >incessantly around the bed, really makes the song for me. another thing I've always liked about the song (I haven't heard the SH version yet, BTW) is the connection of the surgery in the song with the "Psycho" shower scene music that forms the song's introduction. James [1] lousy band, great syncopation in the name - I've alwa6s wanted to use a tape loop of myself saying "Gary Puckett and the Union Gap" as a rhythm track... James Dignan___________________________________ You talk to me Deptmt of Psychology, Otago University As if from a distance ya zhivu v' 50 Norfolk Street And I reply. . . . . . . . . . Dunedin, New Zealand with impressions chosen from another time steam megaphone (03) 455-7807 (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:22:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Bayard Subject: Re: DB what about SMARTIE MINE!!! > >On Sun, 4 Oct 1998 Correctto@aol.com wrote: > > > >Ah, poor Patricia. You're just now realizing that this list totally > >sucks, eh? The only way to get these wankers to talk about anything is > >to piss them off. It's really quite sad. I don't know if it's a > >reflection on Dan Bern fans in general, or only on the ones who are > >subscribed to this list, but I repeat my assertion (which I've made many > >times now) that THIS IS THE MOST BORING LIST I'VE EVER BEEN A MEMBER OF. > >I won't say worst--that "honor" is reserved for the Robyn Hitchcock > >list--but definitely most boring. You must be a pretty boring guy to keep saying the same thing over and over on such a boring list. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:31:31 EDT From: MARKEEFE@aol.com Subject: Another (brief) Storefront Review Hey there. I just took my first listen to the CD today, so I had to say a little something about it. All in all, it's pretty good. I think Eb's 13/20 is right on the money. Some songs and some stories work really well; others not so well. Funny, with all this (really cool and interesting) talk of "The Yip Song," I'd have to say it's my least favorite musical track on the CD. It just sounds flat and thin to me. That's one that really needs the Egyptians there filling in the sound, driving the beat and supplying harmonies - -- I don't see the point of performing it, otherwise (I mean, other than the obvious significance of the lyrics to Robyn). Basically, the CD's a pretty good representation of Robyn's live shows of late, I think -- some newer tunes; some standards; some weird little stories in between, some of which work extremely well and just seem to spout out of his subconscious, while others seem a bit labored, like he forgot what he was going to say or needs a while to get going . . . which is probably something that works a little bit better when you're actuslly looking at him on stage, whereas, on CD, it seems kinda awkward a couple of times. All in all, it's pretty cool, but it didn't rock my world. Then again, live albums almost never do, so it's about what I expected. I still can't wait for the movie! - ------Michael K. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 22:27:48 -0600 From: amadain Subject: Re: Hits of the 70s and yippee! dogs! >in this context it's worth remembering that compilations of 'the best of >the sixties' invariably never have anything by the Beatles. It may be that >the rights to music by bigger bands are simply harder to obtain and so in >order to turn the buck more quickly 'the best of the sixties' suddenly Well, I think that's one reason. People being more likely to have Beatles albums is another good reason, as has been mentioned also. I think also though, that there is a DEMAND for these kinds of comps, in the sense that I might enjoy hearing "Henry the 8th" now and then but I'd rather not buy a Herman's Hermits album, and that there's MORE of this kind of material all told, than the other kind (e.g., more bands with one enjoyable/memorable tune than bands with a consistent body of work). Endless loads of it, in fact. So comps are pretty easy to put together and it's not only schmos with bad taste that might see the use in owning a few. Although granted, that's who a lot of them are geared to (wooo! FIVE Lou Christie songs AND "Sugar Shack"! we're partyin' now!). What I hate is when they neglect to inform you that the version the CD actually contains is some badly recorded live version from a 1985 Holiday Inn tour. That's really fuckin annoying. >turns into Dave Dee Dozy Beaky Mick & Tich and Gary Puckett and the Union >Gap[1] OK, did Gary Puckett ever do a song that did not involve a smarmy guy talking about getting laid? As far as I know that was pretty much the entire scope of his writing. >another thing I've always liked about the song (I haven't heard the SH >version yet, BTW) is the connection of the surgery in the song with the >"Psycho" shower scene music that forms the song's introduction. Hey, that's cool. I hadn't thought of that. Thanks! You know, I grew up with what "you here in America would call Scotty dogs" (actually we've had two westies in my family), and that may perhaps be why I had this mental picture of an insistent Death sort of yipping like one. Not even so much the yipping, but this way they have of jumping around just underfoot urgently and stubbornly endeavoring for attention. If you've ever had close acquaintance with one you probably know how I mean that. Love on ya, Susan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Oct 98 23:36:36 EDT From: Ross Overbury Subject: Re: Hits of the 70s and yippee! dogs! James is like: > >another thing I've always liked about the song (I haven't heard the SH > >version yet, BTW) is the connection of the surgery in the song with the > >"Psycho" shower scene music that forms the song's introduction. > And Susan's like : > Hey, that's cool. I hadn't thought of that. Thanks! So I'm all: I just figured it for a slightly classier version (in that it was real strings) of that viral synth string glissando that had infected a significant number of pop songs of the day. Yet another factor driving me away from the possibility of careful examination of the lyrics. Until the fabulous fegs. > > You know, I grew up with what "you here in America would call Scotty dogs" > (actually we've had two westies in my family), and that may perhaps be why > I had this mental picture of an insistent Death sort of yipping like one. > Not even so much the yipping, but this way they have of jumping around just > underfoot urgently and stubbornly endeavoring for attention. If you've ever > had close acquaintance with one you probably know how I mean that. My Scottish Terriers don't yip. They've got medium size dog heads on stumpy bodies, and they sound pretty butch for a species whose universe ends at your kneecaps. What's Robyn call them anyway, halibut? - -- Ross Overbury Montreal, Quebec, Canada email: rosso@cn.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:21:23 -0600 From: amadain Subject: Re: yippee! dogs! erf! (1 percent RH) >> Not even so much the yipping, but this way they have of jumping around just >> underfoot urgently and stubbornly endeavoring for attention. If you've ever >> had close acquaintance with one you probably know how I mean that. > >My Scottish Terriers don't yip. They've got medium size dog heads on >stumpy bodies, and they sound pretty butch for a species whose universe >ends at your kneecaps. Huh. I was thinking perhaps more generally of the realm of terriers. The thing is that most Americans refer to ALL of these dogs as "Scotty dogs" (any small terrier of a similar configuration). I had a piano teacher, for example, who insisted that my dog was a white Scotty dog no matter what I said. When in fact Westies (cairn/scotty were mixed to create that breed, as I understand it) are slightly smaller than Scottish terriers, usually, their heads aren't quite as outsized, and judging by what you're telling me DO have a higher-pitched bark than Scotties. Though it's not exactly a yip, still it might sort of sound that way if you're used to large dogs who make loud resounding WOOF barks. In any event, they are also generally more....um........they generally are more human-friendly than Scotties too, although of course this is a generalization not meant to reflect on the ones you own necessarily :). Both the ones we've had would be very stubborn about clamoring around underfoot and barking until full attention was attained in a very yip-ish manner, even if yip is not exactly the noise they made (more like "erf"). >What's Robyn call them anyway, halibut? Those persons who prefer large dogs often have insulting names such as that for smaller ones :). Halibut sounds right. Love on ya, Susan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 02:44:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Bayard Subject: fish gloss addendum Attention fegbands: If you have a CD out, we should arrange to have me purchase or trade for it if you are on FISH GLOSS. That way I can pull the selected tracks off and stick 'em on the CDRs. I currently own CD's by the following bands: > Mark Gloster and Big Rubber Shark > Regular Einstein > NeoPseudo and the Invisible Band (i see my roomie has this one) > The Favorite Color (I also have the latest releases by Orchestraville and Joel Mullins, [and quite good they are!] but they did not submit to _FG_.) Anyone else have a CD, aside from Dolph, who's on this 4-cdr compilation? Dolph, write me! To those who would like to be on the next originals comp: I'd like to do a one-disc comp at some point in the future. Anyone is welcome to submit DAT or CDR at 44.1kHz. Write me privately. I am interested in purchasing or trading for any fegBand CD's in any case. ps- Zelda, I'm eagerly awaiting fegBand merch from you! pps. Any fegband interested in being on my fegbands web page (I've finally started!) let me know. gracias. =b ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:18:35 +0100 (BST) From: Stewart Russell 3295 Analyst_Programmer Subject: Re: Yip >>>>> "Eb" == Eb writes: >> I don't think the song would be improved by the E J Thribb >> approach: >> So farewell then Raymond Hitchcock You were my dad and you >> kicked the bucket Now I'm really Upset Eb> The continuing appearance of condescending statements like Eb> these does little to advance the discussion. gloss for the non-UK types: E J Thribb is the eternal teenage poet-obituarist in Private Eye magazine. All of his works start 'So farewell then', and are an acquired taste in dry humour. - -- Stewart C. Russell Analyst Programmer, Dictionary Division stewart@ref.collins.co.uk HarperCollins Publishers use Disclaimer; my $opinion; Glasgow, Scotland ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:55:19 +0100 (BST) From: M R Godwin Subject: Re: Yip On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Eb wrote: > My friend Dan is gone and I am sorry. He moved to Ohio. In that case, he hasn't 'gone', he's 'gone away' - totally different. [Ugh: I just had an Eagles moment there - how many songs have 'Gone' in the title? Hoagy Carmichael's "Gone Fishin'"; is there one called "Long Gone"?] > The continuing appearance of condescending statements like these does > little to advance the discussion. You've given up condescending statements, then? Or does this only apply to everyone else? - - MRG PS Thanks to Stewart for clarification. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 98 08:26:00 -0800 From: Russ Reynolds Subject: Re: DB what about SMARTIE MINE!!! > >Ah, poor Patricia. You're just now realizing that this list totally > >sucks, eh? The only way to get these wankers to talk about anything is > >to piss them off. It's really quite sad. I don't know if it's a > >reflection on Dan Bern fans in general, or only on the ones who are > >subscribed to this list, but I repeat my assertion (which I've made many > >times now) that THIS IS THE MOST BORING LIST I'VE EVER BEEN A MEMBER OF. > >I won't say worst--that "honor" is reserved for the Robyn Hitchcock > >list-- WE'RE NUMBER ONE! WE'RE NUMBER ONE! WE'RE NUMBER ONE! - -rUss, happy that we're yipping about RH for a change. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 98 11:58:17 EDT From: Ross Overbury Subject: OK, so he's not in MOJO's top 100 vocalists ... ... but Robyn Hitchcock is the guy they chose to quote in the big font in the article on John Lennon (#4/100). Mojo's typical reader wouldn't say "who?", would they? I'm barely aware of Mojo myself. But I know Robyn. - -- Ross Overbury Montreal, Quebec, Canada email: rosso@cn.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 98 09:57:00 -0800 From: Russ Reynolds Subject: OK, so he's not in MOJO's top 100 vocalists ... >... but Robyn Hitchcock is the guy they chose to quote in >the big font in the article on John Lennon (#4/100). that looks pretty damn cool, doesn't it? That may do more for Hitchcock awareness than his tour with REM. speaking of the top 100 vocalists, I'm trying to figure out how Elvis Costello got left off that list. I've just recently discovered Mojo--what a great mag! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:35:20 -0700 From: Mark_Gloster@3com.com Subject: RE: Yip: sincerity vs. art Re: John's rare post: I'm not arguing here, just indicating a difference in definitions, and ultimately may feel the same way. Gyawd, I must be a mushead. IMHO: I seem to make different distinctions in my own artistic definition. Mine may lack some academically accepted assumptions, rather they come from a gestalt (why do I want to put an "h" in gestalt?) faithy kind of thing. I think this definition is significantly different from just splitting hairs. I tend to draw boundaries in other places. I guess I have difficulty seeing the mutual exclusivity between art and sincerity. In some ways I believe that communication of the artist's perspective is a common, but not necessary, component of art. I make art and craft separations in my mind. It is possible to have craft without art, and somewhat possible to have art without craft, but the real development of an artist naturally passes in some way through technical training (craft) to a mode that transcends that (art.) They seem like vinegar and oil and I like them best when they are mixed up together with other cool spices. For me craft is a construction project by trained hands that may have the entire life of the piece blueprinted and strategically, or at least tactically, utilizing "building materials" to achieve a specific end from others. In this way, the craftsperson will know what the effect of employed colors, words, and spaces will be on his audience. Art is something that grows there naturally that goes onward to have a life of its own, that may be influenced by craft, but is not muscled or forced into a form. I believe that the mere concern for the audience's perception or participation with the work is an obstacle to attaining art. Sincerity, if it means the artists unobstructed channel for self expression, seems to me a great part of art. If you contrast the theme to _The Bodyguard_ with "Beautiful Queen" f'rinstance, you will find possibly more craft employed on part of the machine that chunked it out, though BQ is far more artistic. This art is not separated from its sincerity or its craft. I am really trying to suppress my "not an opinion- it's a fact!" statement here. I think you can make similar comparisons within Robyn's catalog, where a technical marvel like the PI album doesn't carry (FOR ME) some of the artistic clout that some of his edgier albums had. BTW, I do like PI. Some of RH's smarmier, unctuous, avuncular songs like "I Got a Message For You," and "I Something You," seem to be much higher on Mark's craft scale than on Mark's art scale, not that that should matter too much to anybody who didn't wake up this morning with the frightening realization that they were Mark Gloster. Silly, one dimensional, caricaturish ditties, which may be more craft than art, or more art than craft, have a right to live, but I wouldn't want Robyn to be remembered solely for them. Do I make any sense? Do I ever? I something you all, - -Markg ps. I wouldn't have put "Globe of Frogs" with John's other examples, since I feel a greater depth with that particular ditty, even if I don't have much of a clue about its specific meaning. ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V7 #381 *******************************