From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V7 #349 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Tuesday, September 8 1998 Volume 07 : Number 349 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: MBV [Eb ] christgau on zep [dmw ] Re: Re: Seriously, folks [MARKEEFE@aol.com] searching [Marc Holden ] Re: Seriously, folks [Ben ] "i wanna destroy you" 7" up for auction [pauly on the shore ] Stop the Planet of the Apes, I want to get off! [Chris ] negativland [Eb ] from randi - well - actually from tim - Rush content 80%; RH 20%... [Tim ] When our weary world was young. . . . [The Great Quail Subject: Re: MBV >Just catching up with posts.... Didn't MBV give up the ghost ages ago? I >saw a friend's band supporting "Snow Pony" last year that had 2 of MBV in >them. Snowpony has the ex-MBV bassist, Debbie Googe. Shields and Bilinda still remain in MBV. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 07:44:59 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: christgau on zep i dint bother with the 70s book, but i do have the 80s volume: lz _coda_ (swansong, 1982) they really were pretty great, and these eight outtakes -- three from their elephantine blue phase, three from their unintentional swan song -- aren't where to start discovering why. But despite the calculated clumsiness of the beginnings and the incomplete orchestrations of the end, everything here but the John Bonham Drum Orchestra would convince a disinterested party. Jimmy Page provides a protean solo on "I Can't Quit You Baby" and jumbo riffs throughout. B+ (generous as all fuck if you ask me, not that you did) - -- d., who has a grubby pirate cassette of _physical grafitti_ somewhere - - oh,no!! you've just read mail from doug = dmayowel@access.digex.net - - and dmw@mwmw.com ... get yr pathos at http://www.pathetic-caverns.com/ - - new reviews! tunes, books, flicks, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 12:12:11 EDT From: MARKEEFE@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Seriously, folks In a message dated 9/6/98 7:35:03 PM, you wrote: << My point was that although Rush may have writen "Xanadu" and other sci-fi epics without an ounce of humor in mind, how many people take the lyrics of it seriously?>> Oh, okay. Well, I definitely got a very different message from what you wrote. If you were *just* talking about Rush (or other Rush-like artists), then that's one thing. But I interpreted what you wrote (and you *did* mention Bach!) as saying that all music should not be taken seriously. Now, I don't have a degree in musicology and I haven't spent my whole life training to become a concert violinist, but I *do* take music seriously and I believe that to do so is both completely valid and non-anachronistic (i.e., not pertaining to a "dying breed"). I like some goofy stuff (a lot of Robyn's material, obviously; some Ween; Madness; etc.), but even this material I take seriously, because it's important to have something in your life that helps you to take things *less* seriously. And it's also important to have something in your life that gets you through the bad times by being so serious and gloomy that the words and music become a form of empathy. And it's also important (I think) to have just-plain-old-good pop music to get you to and from work everyday. There's nothing like "The Who Sell Out" to keep you from opening fire on the asshole that just cut you off. One last thought: If Rush's words and music are important enough for you to defend them, then why not take them seriously? - -----Michael K. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 09:13:23 -0700 From: Marc Holden Subject: searching I've been searching for years for a couple of things I keep seeing on Hitchcock/Soft Boys discographies: Heaven--12" Relativity promo Heaven--7" Slash promo Does anyone have either of these? I have the Relativity 7" promo, the Midnight Music 7" 1-sided promo, and the the Midnight 12". (For that matter, does anyone have the Spanish flexi of Heaven?) Also, I'm trying to find a cd copy of the Bowie song "Heroes/Helden" (the long version of the song which starts in English, goes into German, and finishes in English). It appeared on the album "Rare" and the soundtrack "Christiane F. WIR KINDER VOM BAHNHOF ZOO", but I haven't seen either of these on cd. There is the short German only version of the song on the "Sound and Vision" box set, but for some reason this song wasn't a bonus track on the Ryko re-release of "Heroes". I have heard that it is on the German release of "Heroes", but I haven't been able to locate a copy of it either. Hep me, Hep me pease. Later, Marc ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 12:45:26 -0400 From: Ben Subject: Re: Seriously, folks MARKEEFE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/6/98 7:35:03 PM, you wrote: > > << My point was that although Rush may have writen "Xanadu" and other > sci-fi epics > without an ounce of humor in mind, how many people take the lyrics of it > seriously?>> > > Oh, okay. Well, I definitely got a very different message from what you > wrote. If you were *just* talking about Rush (or other Rush-like artists), > then that's one thing. But I interpreted what you wrote (and you *did* > mention Bach!) as saying that all music should not be taken seriously. I mentioned Bach because he's unquestionably a serious artiste that brings to mind professors discussing Neopolitan 6ths and such, yet I think his ultimate appeal lies in the pleasant melodies of many of his pieces. But, you have people that get so caught up in the "seriousness" of it that I think they end up enjoying music much less. > One last thought: If Rush's words and music are important enough for you > to defend them, then why not take them seriously? > > -----Michael K. I defend them because I enjoy the music, not because I take it seriously. Some of their (80's and 90's for the most part) stuff I would take seriously, but the sci-fi / mythological stuff I don't, for obvious reasons. This doesn't mean I don't find "By-Tor And The Snow Dog" an enjoyable tune to listen to, it just means that the tale of By-Tor doesn't effect me beyond that entertainment value aspect... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 13:12:55 -0400 From: pauly on the shore Subject: "i wanna destroy you" 7" up for auction fegs, someone (not me) is auctioning off an "i wanna destroy you" single on ebay. if you're interested, details are at woj ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 15:34:43 -0600 From: amadain Subject: Re: critics (0% RH content) >I really don't know BUT I think that radio 1 (the BBC's national 90s music >station) has a lot more to do with it. Well, of course it would, I mean that's where the records are played and that's how anything would get heard by the majority of people. It'd be foolish to argue otherwise. >tends to focus on bands that are already charting (after all, 10 year old >girls aren't going to be interested in reading about groups they've never >heard of). I see "Smash Hits" as one of the publications whose main purpose is to promote/support this disposability factory. The audience it's aimed at is readily exploitable in this regard :). Actually there -used- to be an American version of "Smash Hits" back in the day, it had a slightly different title (something else with "Hits" in it? anyone remember this?). I don't know if it is still around or not, but back when I was around that age (12-13) I was really into the "new romantic" thing and I used to buy it pretty often. British pinup pop was fairly popular here in the US at that time, Duran Duran, Wham, etc., and really isn't anymore so I would assume this mag has either evolved or disappeared. As far as that goes, there's probably too much competition from "16", "Tiger Beat", etc., more general interest teenybopper stuff (i.e., they don't concentrate solely on music) to make a mag having solely to do with Hansen/Backstreet/N'Sync entirely viable. >On the other hand, the scary thing is that a lot of my record collection is >based soley on the reviews that they get in NME/Melody Maker ie on the >opinions of two total strangers! I don't know if that's at all as scary as it might seem :). I think critics serve a viable function, informing the public of new and different performers they might not be aware of. It's always good when you find critics with whom you share a given taste/outlook, it's a good source of information- you can trust their recommendations to some degree, and they've done some of the "finder's" work for you. If you find that your tastes are really sympatico with said critics, that's very cool. On the other hand, if it's a case of "well, the guys in Meoldy Maker said it so it must be true", that WOULD be scary. >btw, what US music mags are there? Spin and Rolling Stone are both available >here, but I don't think I've seen any others - certainly, no weekly papers That's why I said "in the US there are exactly TWO". These are the ONLY mainstream rock mags with a significant amount of distribution. There are some niche magazines, "Vibe" for example (a rap mag), "Heavy Metal", "Downbeat" (jazz/blues), and there's a fairly glossy industrial one published here in Chicago whose name escapes me at the moment (I'm thinking "Industrial Nation"?). But as far as general interest pop music goes, those two are pretty much it. And there are no weekly papers as far as I am aware, at all. Basically for any significant information (i.e., more than a token blurb) about music which is outside the top 40/"alternative" mainstream (Matchbox 20, Better Than Ezra, et al) paradigm self-published zines are the best source. Obviously with those distribution is mostly local and forget getting to the UK, it usually doesn't get outside a five mile radius of where the makers live :). We may have more radio stations, but we don't ultimately have that much more choice, there's a real "splintering" mentality, and those of us with eclectic tastes are a bit out in the cold, both as far as radio AND reading about music is concerned. I wish we had a magazine like "Q" that covers a wider spectrum, but the reality is it wouldn't find much of an audience here. People tend to be narrowly locked into whatever "their thing" is. >This COULD be that whole Romo thing that happened a couple of years ago - >basically, the Melody Maker ran a big cover feature about the (pretty much >non-existent) Romo scene (I think it was something to do with New Romantics, >but as I was only a kid in the 80s I don't really know) Yeah, I remember reading about this. Something about a trumped-up New Romantic revival. The incident I'm talking about is considerably earlier, I remember hearing tell of it in 1989 or so, and it had to do with a similarly trumped up basically non-existent ska revival. Of course one DOES have to wonder who the joke was on ultimately, given the popularity of watered-down ska with the kidz nowadays. Love on ya, Susan n.p. Barry Adamson "As Above, So Below" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 18:10:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Subject: Stop the Planet of the Apes, I want to get off! >I bet if Charlton Heston or Frank Sinatra threatened their critics you'd >be just as willing to defend them ;) Take your stinkin' paws off me, you damn dirty ape! It's a madhouse... a madhouse... Oh, sorry, spent the weekend watching the Planet of the Apes marathon on AMC. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 15:49:43 -0700 From: Eb Subject: negativland Those of you interested in the Negativland sampling controversy ought to check out the rec.music.progressive newsgroup. There's a fairly violent series of arguments going on between Usenet folks and Evan Cohen, a prominent music-biz lawyer and head of the Manifesto Records label. I *think* he's also the brother of Herb Cohen, who was Zappa's partner at Bizarre/Straight?? This would make sense, since Manifesto has reissued artists like Tim Buckley and Tom Waits who were originally on Bizarre/Straight.... Eb PS I'm not sure what my stand is on this issue, frankly. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 01:15:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Fuller Subject: from randi - well - actually from tim - Rush content 80%; RH 20%... Hello my fegland friends... As most of you know, I've been using Tim's email addy as my posting home base. And now - the topic of Rush has come up... *I* don't have much to say on that subject...except that Tim *may* be the only person who owns EVERY "Robyn/RH&E/Soft Boys" album, along with EIGHT "Rush" albums, EVERY "Zep" album, and EVERY "Who" album that Keith Moon played on... So - I thus pass the torch to Tim :} * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * In all the time Randi has been on the list I always wondered how I might eventually post and add my $0.02...little did I ever suspect it would be in relation to Rush. But it is and here it goes: I like Rush quite a bit. Not unlike Eb, I outgrew them in early High School, only to return when I realized that maybe I'd gone too far in pursuing music that was good for me critically speaking. Other abandoned bands followed, Yes and Genesis and... (Concerning Led Zep and The Who, it's a Beatles and the Stones (and House of Love?) comparison; apples and oranges (Pink Floyd? XTC?) - imho) I grew up in Don Mills and later moved to Willowdale. If there is a holy land for the Rush fan it *should* be either of these postal zones... (collectively known as North York and pretty much a big suburb of Toronto). I went to school at A.Y. Jackson Secondary School - named after one of the "Group of Seven" (not The Gang of Four though :) - a famous CDN painterly group. This is the school that Alex Lifeson went to; supposedly his mural is still the centrepiece of the hall where folks would go to eat lunch and discuss chemistry - not necessarily in that order. Anyhow, as I said: I Like Rush. I Like Robyn too and I see no reason why the two can't co-exist. Growing up listening to Rush is exactly what Mike Myers did (also from Don Mills though eventually he moved to Black Sabbath central: Scarborough) and exactly what every suburban Canadian kid did. How to explain it? The same suburban luxury of time and space and lots of ravines and basements to smoke dope in. The winter weather has something to do with it somehow too. I really "found" Robyn around I.O.D.O.T., about three years before I refound Rush. Perhaps Robyn liberated me, I can't say. I can say that, though the earliest Soft Boys stuff certainly crunched (witness the live Wading Through the Ventilator off Can of Bees CD) they could not ever be accused of being able to rock. Rush knew how to Rock and yer' average Canadian suburban kid with slightly more then average intelligence liked the testosterone pumping riffs and monster space sounds (Cygnus X-1, which I heard on the radio in 1977 - I was twelve - was at the time the scariest piece of noise I'd ever heard) that Styx, Kansas and Boston just couldn't give. Sabbath was just too darn dumb and Zep and the Who just didn't give us any real place to escape. I *still* listen to Rush, though in phases (same way I re-visit Robyn) and I still get the same silly, grade-ten, guy-who's-yet to get-a-girlfriend kind of joy out of it: goosebumps to this day. Rush was (emphasis on was, before they became *The Police* in 1982 ;) one of the great rock bands of the world, simply enough. To us frost-bitten Canadian boys (Max Webster reference anyone?) the fact that they were big in Germany meant little. The fact that *anyone* in the US had heard of them was beyond us. The lyrics tried too hard (a dime for every use of "reality" would make me independently wealthy) but the melody, the construction, the technique (!) and the sheer ambition - this was (is) impossible to laugh off. Beyond that, here are some nifty little trivia bits concerning Rush (but not Robyn, sorry!). - - Frank Black once mentioned that the Pixies aspired to be as cool as Rush (verification to follow - I think it was from the NME) - - "Lakeside Park" off Fly by Night, was about hanging out by the Beaches (the boardwalk off Lake Ontario) on "the 24th of May" which is Victoria Day up here - a nod to a dead queen and the first long weekend of the summer - - "The Necromancer" off Caress of Steel, discusses (in very silly slowed-down speech by Alex Lifeson I believe) the travels "along the river Don" by "three men of Willowdale". The Don river cuts Toronto in half, Willowdale is the previously-mentioned suburb that Lifeson comes from. - - One of the many fiddly (and, of course, silly and laughingly brilliant) bits off "La Villa Strangiatio" from Hemispheres, is called "Danforth and Pape" - a very important intersection in Toronto for fans of souvlaki and kalamari... - - Rush has their own label in Canada (distributed by EMI I believe...) called Anthem - a further reference to Ayn Rand. - - One of the rare times that Neil Peart did not write the lyrics to a song was "Tom Sawyer", off Moving Pictures (the last great album? my older brother sez he lost if after 2112...). This was written by a fellow who went by the name Pye Dubois, who wrote the lyrics for label-mates (and New Years Eve at Maple Leaf Gardens opening act) Max Webster. "Pye" was not his real name, for he worked ('til recently) in a psychiatric institution in Toronto and didn't want to be recognized by former patients... - - "Spirit of the Radio", off Permanent Waves, was specifically inspired by local radio station CFNY (where Tim and Randi first heard "I Got the Hots for You") which played punk and new wave stuff - the kind of stuff that Neil Peart listened to in the early '80s: Japan, Ultravox and OMD. - - The first refrain of "2112" was used as the opening theme for local (now international, I believe) punk/new wave/etc show "The New Music" which did many a feature on The Jam, XTC, The Clash etc - all things new and hip. It was replaced years later by "Papa's Got a Brand New Pigbag". (Co-incidentally, Robyn and Andy and Morris did a three-song set for The New Music when they were in town for Perspex Island.) Rest assured, Tim has seen RH more times (6) then Rush (twice) or Page and Plant (3) or The Who (one very disappointing time). I would *love* to see Robyn and Neil Peart try to discuss their particular take on metaphysics...it'd make a great sitcom. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Rest assured, that Randi has seen Robyn _*way*_ more times than Tim {tee-hee-hee}... But, sadly enough, moi has nothing to add - not enough testosterone I suppose - but I do respect Tim's musical judgement - since the first tape he made for me all those years ago had "Man With The Lightbulb Head" and "Kingdom Of Love" on it. So Tim and I will both fade back into yesterday, Randi {and mostly Tim ;} ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Sep 98 11:58:40 -0500 From: The Great Quail Subject: When our weary world was young. . . . Sigh. I have watched the arguments go back and forth now for a bit, eyeing my keyboard with a half-glazed expression of naked need, like some old and recently kicked junkie who has been assigned to watch his friend's stash. . . . I say idly by when Zep was bashed, even laughed when Yes was sent up the river. And the fact that Genesis is even lumped in with the "dwarves and trees" set made my hair stand on end. But when RUSH starts getting smeared, oh. . . . oh. Look. I do not want to join a side of a flame war about Prog/Art rock vs. RAWK! vs. Pop vs. Rock vs. Bach. . . . and so on. But what I do want to do is explain why I think a lot of this argument is simply misguided. . . . First of all, let me start by saying that Prog rock is a genre. The hallmarks of this genre invlove things such as a focus on musicianship, tendencies for long virtuoso solos, and lyrics that delve into more literary or fantastic themes. It is also one of the more classically "Romantic" offshoots of modern music. You either like this genre or you don't. But to critisize it based on a set of values derived from pop is just incorrect. It is like critisizing Beethoven's Ninth Symphony based on operatic standards -- well, there's an orchestra and a bunch of singers, right? Or even lambasting a Handel opera based on Wagnerian principles. You can do it, but it is *misguided.* I think a fundamental problem here is based in a labelling distinction -- ROCK. This word drives me crazy -- why does everything with an electric guitar, unless it is jazz, *have* to be considered "rock," and subject to one monolith of criteria? For instance -- Is prog rock self-indulgent? Well, from a pop perspective, perhaps it is -- and so many then level this charge at the genre as a *whole,* which only brings up the question of "What *is* self-indulgence?" I love Steve Howe, and when he rips off into some strange and complex solo, I get a satisfaction more akin to when I hear a violin concerto than when I hear my beloved Edge take a few bars into the stratosphere. The nature of the solo is different, and to blast Howe (or Wakeman, or Fripp, or Neil Peart) as being self-indulgent is like trying to compare the violin in a concerto with the violin in a reel. They express emotion and intellect in very different ways, and to use the standards of one to judge the other seems self-serving. A better critique is to look at the genre itself and analyze it from within. The fact is, there is some very good prog rock, and some very bad prog rock. Gabriel-era Genesis, for instance, I consider very good -- and yet so many modern rock critics and fans smash it. Well, folks, Pete and Steve and the lads didn't *want* to write 4 minute songs about riding your motorcycle or breaking up with your lover. (Now, you can do this very, *very* well too, as we all know.) They wanted to write 12 minute long songs about identity, mythology, and surreal transformations of the mundane. The urdge to blast them for this is, to me, such a misguided one - -- why not blast Schoenberg for inventing serialism and writing weird vocal works about much of the same? Oh, I see -- Genesis used modern electrical instruments and some standard rock chords, so they must be rock, and how dare they take music seriously. . . . There is also a difference between taking music seriously and taking yourself seriously, as Zappa would gladly tell you. Rush, for instance, takes their music very seriously, but they are a very fun group of guys with a legendary sense of humor. I think a lot of people on this list have lately forgotten to look for humor in some music, and have lazily pegged groups based on more shallow apprehensions. For instance, Queen, Bauhaus, Rush, U2, REM -- all have been accused of being humourless, and yet I think these are some of the most good-natured bands around. But they all take their *music* seriously, and enjoy to some extent crafting an image. But look deeper, and you will see a clear sense of humor, whether it is based on camp, joy, or irony. But back to proggie chord-counting. Now, again, there was some very BAD prog rock, but I think it is best criticized on the knowledge of what it *is* than what it is not meant to be. Some ELP stuff -- especially in the later years -- was rather unfocused and dare I say "self-indulgent." The over-emoting of Marillion's Fish can be a bit strained, a lot of Nektar's work sounds horribly dated, and groups like Eloy and Galadriel were so cerebral that they lacked any real substance or emotion. Additionally, there is the tendency for some art rockers to grow overly sentimental, jaded, or decadent -- the curse of any Romantic tradition, all three may be seen in the sad fate of the Moody Blues. Another pet peeve of mine is this fixation on criticizing "fantastic" lyrics. This is a time honored tradition in music, and a brief glance at Wagner's catalogue will reveal a whole mess of dwarves. Fantasy and mythology -- when it is utilized well -- has a very allegorical purpose, and I don't think its inclusion in the musical world needs to be defended. A lot of this elf-bashing is a modern reaction against *bad* fantasy -- but the good stuff stands the test of time. People oddly accept the works of Coleridge and Keats as "literature," but even now "The Lord of the Rings" has to defend its inclusion in the Western Canon. Again, like all Romantic genres, art rock leans towards this tendency to incorporate myth and religious imagery . . . King Crimson's "Moonchild" and "Prince Rupert Awakes;" Rush's "The Trees," "Xanadu," and "Hemispheres;" Jethro Tull's "Aqualung" and "Thick as a Brick;" Genesis "Lamia" -- these works are firmly based in a time-honored musical and literary tradition, and need no apology. And again, it is a most effective tool when used *well,* which it often is not. Just mentioning dwarves shouldn't be a ticket to seriousness, and a lot of prog rockers had trouble with the line between allegory and bombast. Believe me, I have some stunning examples of pompous art rock, stuff that makes "Tarkus" look like a Ramones song. But then again, sometimes fun is just fun. When Plant drops "Gollum" and "Mordor" in "Ramble On," I don't think anyone thinks he's trying to make a social statement. And some of Rush's early works like "By Tor and the Snow Dog" never pretended to be anything than entertainment backed by some flashy playing -- and what's wrong with that? If your boat doesn't include a love of fantasy and mythology, don't stop at this port. Some of us *loved* that stuff in high school, it helped mold a sense of identity. And for some of the claims that there were embrarassing songs on early Rush albums, et al -- I for one allow a group to have an early period and a later period, just as I did -- but my works are not captured on CD to be judged twenty years after I wrote them. The main point is, has the group "matured" and developed musically? I believe that Rush, Jethro Tull, and (especially!) King Crimson have, wheras Yes, the Moodies, and ELP have fared less well. (Although Yes still has some potential, in my humble and hopeful opinion.) So anyway, there's my small treatise and defense of a much-maligned genre. So if you are going to hate Rush, go ahead and hate Rush -- but accept that you hate that whole genre because it is not your cup of tea, and at least give the musicians and their skill the *respect* they deserve. I hope that I shed more light than heat. . . . - --The Quail, future Zanzithophonist to Elfpower PS: Next post: "Why I like Yes" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Great Quail, Keeper of the Libyrinth: http://www.rpg.net/quail/libyrinth "Countlessness of livestories have netherfallen by this plage, flick as flowflakes, litters from aloft, like a waast wizzard all of whirlworlds. Now are all tombed to the mound, isges to isges, erde from erde . . . (Stoop) if you are abcedminded, to this claybook, what curious of signs (please stoop) in this allaphbed! Can you rede (since We and Thou had it out already) its world? . . . Speak to us of Emailia!" --James Joyce, Finnegans Wake ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V7 #349 *******************************