From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V7 #348 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Monday, September 7 1998 Volume 07 : Number 348 Today's Subjects: ----------------- rush (away from this topic) :-) [dwdudic@erols.com (luther)] dead japanese filmakers? [dwdudic@erols.com (luther)] zep still is overrated./// [dwdudic@erols.com (luther)] Re: Seriously, folks [Ben ] Moon Dogs [james.dignan@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (James Dignan)] Re: rush (away from this topic) :-) [Ben ] Zep (long, some Robyn content, delete at will) [Miles Goosens ] PPRs...??? [X-Communicate ] Re: Seriously, folks [amadain ] Re: Zep (long, some Robyn content, delete at will) [Eb ] Re: Zep (long, some Robyn content, delete at will) [Eb ] Re: random rant a la Eddie [Ben ] Re: random rant a la Eddie [JH3 ] Re: Zep (long, some Robyn content, delete at will) [Ben Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 20:55:27 -0400 >From: Ben >Subject: Re: another post with Eb in the subject line >> >But I don't think >> >I've ever read a positive review of a Rush album. What's the dilly-o? >> >> Well, speaking personally, nothing irks me more than bands with grand >> agendas and schemes who aren't nearly as clever as they think. Rush falls >> into this category. I don't have any strong hatred for Rush, however, >> because the gap between pretensions/talent isn't nearly as great as the gap >> found in, say, the Verve. Still, I feel like I outgrew Rush in about 9th >> grade, and I never looked back. A lot of their stuff sounds darn silly, >> when you step back and take a look at it. Well, at least (according to that interview thingy) they admit some of it is silly...:-) > >Therein lies the appeal of Rush! Like Kiss, Hawkwind, etc. their "greatest" work >is something along the lines of a musical comic book, extremely childish but >entertaining as well. For me, I like listening to Rush for the same reason I >would watch a cheesy 1950's sci-fi film, it's pure entertainment. I think most >folks who listen to Rush do not spend time pondering the wisdom in Neal Pert's >lyrics! > >"Ouch! I just fell on my 8-sided dice!" You watch a lot of Mystery Science Theatre, don't you? I recognize that line...I had a friend make up a "best of MST3K" tape for me, and I recognize that line from one epsiode.... > -luther (who once had a woman he was seeing try to convince him that Rush was lyrically meaningful... :-))) anyway, on to a better topic...Robyn Hitchcock!!!! Did the Soft Boys ever record their version of "Mystery Train?" Also, how many renditions of "Only the Stones Remain" did uncle bobby (officially) record? ALSO, any of ya'll ever heard of a group called "Single Gun theory"? I just got lent one of their CD's but someone at work, and it is great!!! Very Jah-Wobbleish!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 01:40:47 GMT From: dwdudic@erols.com (luther) Subject: dead japanese filmakers? On Sun, 6 Sep 1998 19:57:11 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: > >Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 13:26:38 -0400 >From: tanter >Subject: major celebrity death > >Kurosawa. > Kurosawa's dead? Damn! First Toshio Mfune, and now him... damn damn dman... -luther ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 01:47:55 GMT From: dwdudic@erols.com (luther) Subject: zep still is overrated./// >Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 17:09:38 -0500 >From: Miles Goosens >Subject: 100% Zep > >Now wait a doggone minute! Very few Zep songs could be described as "about >dwarves and trees" oh really now? Well,a lot still sucked... ever try to read "Dancing days" lyrics? huh? - -- there's the Mordor reference on "Ramble On," "The >Battle of Evermore" (in which Sandy Denny contributes great vocals which >redeem it from schlockola-land IMO) true...but considering the gap between the amazing lyricist whose lyrics she was singing in Fairport (hint: he's a pretty formidable 'celtic-rock' guitarist I talk about "occasionally" :-)), and robert plant... huh? , parts of "No Quarter," maybe a few >others here and there. "a few?" But most of them are about sex, spirituality, sex, >dying, sex, coughing, and sex. I'd say robyn's got these areas covered a zillion times better (along with seafood too!), how bout ya'll? Unfortunately (for pop consumption), he doesn't mnake RAWK OUT! music.... > >it's babe i'm gonna leave you and back again, written by Joan Beaz and "borrowed" by Plant/page, like 'black mountain side' was "borrowed" from another english guitarist... > >Miles ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 22:33:17 -0400 From: Ben Subject: Re: Seriously, folks MARKEEFE@aol.com wrote: > > > Um, why? And how seriously is 'so seriously'? How could you like Bach > without taking it at least a little bit seriously? "Oh, that nutty Bach guy > -- those Goldberg Variations just crack me up!" > > -----Michael K., who probably takes music just a bit too seriously(?!) My point was that although Rush may have writen "Xanadu" and other sci-fi epics without an ounce of humor in mind, how many people take the lyrics of it seriously? How many of us have been brought to tears listening to Geddy sing those final lines of "Hemispheres"? It *is* possible to enjoy music just for it's pure entertainment value... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 14:40:30 +1200 From: james.dignan@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (James Dignan) Subject: Moon Dogs Terry wedi ysgrifennu: >After listening to Yes and The Beach Boys, I have one burning question. >What the heck is a moon dog? according to the religion of Labradors, the mother of all dogs lives on the moon. The father of all dogs (Firstdog) is a comet whose fiery tail can sometimes be seen as it flies endlessly through space. When dogs die, their "Happythoughts" (i.e., souls) travel up to the moon, but sometimes return at night to visit their friends in dreams. The moon shines its light on the earth to let dogs know that their ancestors are still there looking after them, but will eventually stop shining when there are no dogs left on earth. To let the mother of all dogs know that there are still dogs there, all living dogs howl their prayers to her whenever the moon is full. When all the dogs on earth have died and their happythoughts have all gone to the moon, they and the mother of all dogs will leave it to travel forever through space with Firstdog. (The above is a summary of the story "Ligion", from "Tales from Uncle Yuri", an as yet unfinished series of short stories written by a labrador, ably assisted by James Dignan...) James PS - Moondogs are also bright spots on the lunar halo, technically called paraselenes. James Dignan___________________________________ You talk to me Deptmt of Psychology, Otago University As if from a distance ya zhivu v' 50 Norfolk Street And I reply. . . . . . . . . . Dunedin, New Zealand with impressions chosen from another time steam megaphone (03) 455-7807 (Brian Eno - "By this River") ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 22:42:43 -0400 From: Ben Subject: Re: rush (away from this topic) :-) luther wrote: > > > >"Ouch! I just fell on my 8-sided dice!" > > You watch a lot of Mystery Science Theatre, don't you? > I recognize that line...I had a friend make up a "best of > MST3K" tape for me, and I recognize that line from one epsiode.... Uhh... Mystey Science what? Heh heh (nervous laughter)... never heard of it... > Did the Soft Boys ever record their version of "Mystery > Train?" Let me trade in my "proggie" hat for my "weenie completist" hat. :) The only one that comes to mind is the version on "Two Halves For The Price Of One" > Also, how many renditions of "Only the Stones Remain" did > uncle bobby (officially) record? Hmmm... 1. bonus track on "UM", 2. different version on "1976-81", 3. slightly different version to the UM vesion on "Two Halves", 4. live version on "Hen Out" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 22:14:27 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Zep (long, some Robyn content, delete at will) At 01:47 AM 9/7/98 +0000, luther wrote: >>Now wait a doggone minute! Very few Zep songs could be described as "about >>dwarves and trees" > oh really now? Well,a lot still sucked... > ever try to read "Dancing days" lyrics? huh? If you're listening to Zep for the lyrics instead of giant Page riffage... well, of course you're going to go home disappointed. There is such a thing as music where the lyrics aren't the central focus, y'know. But come now, you hear lyrics in "Dancing Days" like "I got my flower / I got my power" and "Suppin' booze is precedent / as the evening starts to grow" and you're taking them seriously? huh? :-) >-- there's the Mordor reference on "Ramble On," "The >>Battle of Evermore" (in which Sandy Denny contributes great vocals which >>redeem it from schlockola-land IMO) > true...but considering the gap between the amazing lyricist >whose lyrics she was singing in Fairport (hint: he's a pretty >formidable 'celtic-rock' guitarist I talk about "occasionally" :-)), >and robert plant... > > huh? Luther, Luther, why are you taking me to task for a song whose lyrics I wasn't defending in the first place, and on top of that, acting like I don't know who Richard Thompson is? You're also doing a disservice to Sandy -- you make it sound as though she was just Richard's songbird, when in fact Sandy herself penned a great number of these lyrics in which you're putting so much stock. >, parts of "No Quarter," maybe a few >>others here and there. > "a few?" Yes, just a few. On a list where people routinely defend Robyn Hitchcock from the stereotype of "oh, he's the weird guy who sings about fish and dead wives," you object to me saying that Zep wasn't dwarves and trees? If you said "Zep's lyrics are mostly just 'baby, baby, baby, baby,'" I'd have a lot fewer problems with the statement. Of course, I'd say that the lyrics don't matter as much in Zep songs (see above), and that there is a wee bit more to them, but you get my point. > But most of them are about sex, spirituality, sex, >>dying, sex, coughing, and sex. > > I'd say robyn's got these areas covered a zillion times better >(along with seafood too!), how bout ya'll? Unfortunately (for pop >consumption), he doesn't mnake RAWK OUT! music.... Yes, Zep is championed by the "RAWK OUT!" crowd. For that matter, so is the Who, who form the other original basis for comparison in this thread. I'd score the "obnoxious fan" and "beaten into the ground by classic-rock radio" factors dead even. What I argue is that Page's riffs, especially from HOUSES OF THE HOLY onwards, are usually flat-out killers, and Plant interjected a sufficient degree of irreverence in the lyrics (most of the "baby, baby"s on HotH and PHYSICAL GRAFFITI are self-mocking) to keep things honest, and some things ("Candy Store Rock," "Custard Pie," "Boogie With Stu," "Rock and Roll") are just plain fun. And when they get serious on these albums, such as on "Kashmir" or "In My Time of Dying," they hit it out of the park, perhaps because the contents of their later albums were considerably more varied, making for a more balanced and enjoyable listening experience. I try not to let other people get in the way of my impressions of bands, be they RAWK! idiots OR more-alternative-than-thou types trying to out-hip one another, and I find a lot to like in what Zep recorded. Most of the RAWK! Zep fans concentrate on the blooze of the first two albums (and really, I could live a full life without hearing "Ramble On" or "Whole Lotta Love" ever again); most of those who would argue that Zep had something greater to offer would pin their arguments on HOUSES through IN THROUGH THE OUT DOOR. To me, "The Rain Song," "Over the Hills and Far Away," "The Ocean," "Nobody's Fault But Mine," "The Rover," "In My Time of Dying," "Kashmir," "In the Evening," "Wearing and Tearing," and "All of My Love" form a pretty impressive core of songs. It would be a more just universe if "Kashmir" had been the most played Zep song instead of "Stairway to Heaven." >> >>it's babe i'm gonna leave you and back again, > written by Joan Beaz and "borrowed" by Plant/page, like 'black >mountain side' was "borrowed" from another english guitarist... If there's one thing that Jimmy Page is guilty of, it's that arrogant stealing of other people's music without acknowledgement (and as I said not that long ago, if there are TWO things he's guilty of, the other is claiming to have done the guitar solos on every U.K. rock single of the 1960s). Nevertheless, the man was still the riffmaster supreme, even if he isn't as almighty as he thinks he is. And my not-so-clever Wire pun goes for naught. :-) sing out Hare Hare dance the Hootchie Koo, Miles ====================================================================== "If a million people say a stupid thing, it is still a stupid thing." -- Anatole France Miles Goosens outdoorminer@mindspring.com http://www.mindspring.com/~outdoorminer/miles ====================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 23:09:11 -0600 From: amadain Subject: General Clarification >Now wait a doggone minute! Very few Zep songs could be described as "about >dwarves and trees" -- >myself), but Susan's complaints would seem more accurate if lodged against >Gabriel-era Genesis, Yes, ELP, and the more "prog" end of the '70s spectrum. That's actually who I was really thinking of. The Zep thing was just an aside, more of a general comment that I vastly prefer the Who's lyrics and not necessarily meant to dovetail neatly with the preceding comment. I was ranting and didn't bother to express that thought cleanly :). Although the constant Hobbit stuff does bug me and I did somewhat have that in mind too. And Terry, re your comment: Yes, it does bother me considerably less in the case of Paul Weller as I don't perceive him to be threatening. What I didn't make clear was that actually, Weller's standing offer is to literally fight them in the ring, "gentleman's boxing" style, with referees and rules- which though it is still a bit silly does strike me as considerably less threatening than guns and such, yes, though naturally YMMV :). Love on ya, Susan tired and glammed and jazzed out, having seen lotsa jazz fest and excellent T.Rex and Adam and the Ants cover bands all this weekend :) . ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 21:14:09 -0700 (PDT) From: X-Communicate Subject: PPRs...??? I am assuming that since there have been no Prior Party Reports (PPRs) that all involved have taken Tom's van (and maybe Tom), drove to L.A. hijacked Eb and went for one last wild spin on Mr. Toad's Wild Ride. No? Or has deprogramming Eddie take longer than everyone thought? .chris ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 23:50:37 -0600 From: amadain Subject: Re: Seriously, folks >But then, anybody who takes any music that way, be it Bach, Rush, The Grateful >Dead, or NMH :) is scary! I think (and hope) that the kind of people who >take >music so seriously are a dying breed.>> Oh I don't hope so. Then who would I ever be able to talk to? :) I understand your basic point but I don't see how it's wrong to have a passion for music and to take some seriously. The "it's just entertainment" argument is one I never bought. Since you're a participant on a list which discusses music fairly intensely, and have studied it yourself, I would guess that isn't what you're arguing, but I still wanted to throw my hat in the ring for the opposite position anyways :). > Um, why? And how seriously is 'so seriously'? Well, I do agree that some music probably -shouldn't- be :). But again I wouldn't extend that generally. And we all have our ideas concerning what is and isn't, er, deserving in this regard. Love on ya, Susan who finally met someone who actually takes Adam Ant -more- seriously than she does, believe it or not, and when he said as a parting shot "You can call me Adam, or Stuart", -was- slightly bewildered because she wasn't quite sure how much he was joking (I told him I'd just call him Mr. Goddard :)) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 23:18:34 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Zep (long, some Robyn content, delete at will) Miles: >most of those who would argue that Zep had something greater >to offer would pin their arguments on HOUSES through IN THROUGH THE OUT >DOOR. To me, "The Rain Song," "Over the Hills and Far Away," "The Ocean," >"Nobody's Fault But Mine," "The Rover," "In My Time of Dying," "Kashmir," >"In the Evening," "Wearing and Tearing," and "All of My Love" form a pretty >impressive core of songs. Jeez, I *adore* "Rain Song" and "Kashmir," but "In the Evening" just might be my least favorite Led Zeppelin song. Same threadbare-banal chord progression for 6 minutes...drives me mad with boredom. Also, I don't like the murky production style Zep moved toward at the end, with all those icky filters on Plant's voice. And "All of my Love" is pretty damn treacly, if you ask me. Meanwhile, the tune of "Wearing and Tearing" doesn't even come to me right now. Hrm. I don't think your "the HOTH through In Through the Out Door period contains the more valuable material" argument is nearly as popular as you say. Presence and In Through the Out Door were a clearcut step down in my opinion, and I don't think this is such an unusual view. However, count me firmly in the pro-Zeppelin camp. I may not like In Through the Out Door much (don't even own it, though I have "Carouselambra" taped somewhere), but that string of albums from the debut through Physical Graffiti was superb stuff. Page was just a WIZARD when it came to his endless bag of guitar riffs and his ability to layer so many multiple guitar parts in such exciting ways (no wonder they were a disappointing live band -- there were just too many parts for Page to cover by himself). And as I said previously, I think Plant is the greatest "good-annoying" singer of all-time. ;) I do like the Who more in general, but then again, the Who was less consistent than Zeppelin. I don't have any strong fondness for the post-Quadrophenia Who myself, and that sorta taints my adoration of the Who in the same way (to a lesser extent) that the Stones' mediocre post-Exile material taints my feelings toward that band. Eb, whose personal fave LZ album is Led Zeppelin III, and who's sick with sniffles and sore throat np: Archers of Loaf/White Trash Heroes ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 01:33:28 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: Zep (long, some Robyn content, delete at will) Eb speaks to me: >to me right now. Hrm. I don't think your "the HOTH through In Through the >Out Door period contains the more valuable material" argument is nearly as >popular as you say. Presence and In Through the Out Door were a clearcut >step down in my opinion, and I don't think this is such an unusual view. I dunno -- admittedly my memories of the late '70s may not be that sharp, but I distinctly remember some of those rockcrits who had sneered at Zep for years warming to PRESENCE and IN THROUGH THE OUT DOOR. Heck, I think Jesus H. Christgau even gave IN THROUGH THE OUT DOOR a B+ or better, and said something about how he always knew there was a pretty decent art-rock band lurking in Zep. Anyone armed with an actual copy of one of Christgau's rock guides is welcome to correct me. I used to not like PRESENCE myself, but I was cured of that when the first Zep box came out. Discs three and four mixed in the PRESENCE material with stuff I had always loved from PHYSICAL GRAFFITI and IN THROUGH THE OUT DOOR, and much to my surprise, the PRESENCE material fit right in. >Graffiti was superb stuff. Page was just a WIZARD when it came to his >endless bag of guitar riffs and his ability to layer so many multiple >guitar parts in such exciting ways (no wonder they were a disappointing >live band -- there were just too many parts for Page to cover by himself). One of my other guitar heroes, Warner E. Hodges of the almighty Jason & the Scorchers, said the same thing more succinctly: "Page always did dozens of overdubs. No wonder they sounded like shit live." :-) Speaking of rock dinosaurs (here comes ROBYN CONTENT!!!!): Did Robyn ever do his Pink Floyd routine at any of the other live shows on the '90 solo tour? I'm paraphrasing, having no magnetic memory of that Nashville show, but it went something like this: "Pink Floyd... I kind of like Pink Floyd, mind you, but it's turned into this thing where one bloke is standing stark still at one end of the stage playing 'I Fell Asleep in 1972' and there's this other bloke standing at the other end of the stage playing 'I Didn't Wake Up in 1983'..." later, Miles ====================================================================== "If a million people say a stupid thing, it is still a stupid thing." -- Anatole France Miles Goosens outdoorminer@mindspring.com http://www.mindspring.com/~outdoorminer/miles ====================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 23:38:33 -0700 From: Eb Subject: random rant a la Eddie Today I turned on the opening minutes of the Jerry Lewis Telethon, just to wallow in hatred toward one of the most foul characters in the history of show business. The opening sequence was some hideous musical farce, where a choir of older guys in matching suits sang corny barbershop-type material, while Lewis did his stomach-turning goofy bit as he tried to "fake" singing and gesturing along with them. Oooof. Anyway, that was painful enough on its own. But also in this oh-so-hilarious opening number, Lewis not only managed to flip off the camera (who else on TV has gotten away with this??), but he repeatedly pointed to the singer next to him and exaggeratedly mouthed the word "FAG!" What a lovely way to start a humanitarian broadcast. KEE-RIST. Won't some demented stalker put this shithead out of his misery? I think this incident may even replace my past favorite Jerry memory -- when he introduced the Japanese jazz-fusion group Hiroshima a few years ago, and did it in a burlesque "ah so" Confucius voice, complete with squinty eyes, buck teeth and hands clasped under his chin. Ho ho ho. What a lark this guy is. Eb, who thinks Elton John is just the man to launch a national AIDS telethon...and if he ever does, you heard it here first ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 23:43:20 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Zep (long, some Robyn content, delete at will) Miles wrote back with astonishing speed: >Heck, I think >Jesus H. Christgau even gave IN THROUGH THE OUT DOOR a B+ or better, and >said something about how he always knew there was a pretty decent art-rock >band lurking in Zep. Boy, talk about a backhanded compliment. ;) Eb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 03:20:26 -0400 From: Ben Subject: Re: Seriously, folks amadain wrote: > >But then, anybody who takes any music that way, be it Bach, Rush, The Grateful > >Dead, or NMH :) is scary! I think (and hope) that the kind of people who > >take >music so seriously are a dying breed.>> > > Oh I don't hope so. Then who would I ever be able to talk to? :) > > I understand your basic point but I don't see how it's wrong to have a > passion for music and to take some seriously. The "it's just entertainment" > argument is one I never bought. Since you're a participant on a list which > discusses music fairly intensely, and have studied it yourself, I would > guess that isn't what you're arguing, but I still wanted to throw my hat in > the ring for the opposite position anyways :). > Oh no, I meant that in reference to Rush, that you can still enjoy an artist's music without taking it seriously. Not that I don't think Mr. Peart hasn't written any good "serious" lyrics. There are, however, a nuber of instances in the Rush catalouge where I enjoy the tune just for it's "entertainment value". The best example I can think of as music that is purely entertainment in Kiss (makeup era of course). Why does Kiss Alive! constantly get rated by musicians as a favorite live album? Because of the complex song structures? The imaginative philisophical lyrics? The sheer artistry? No, it's purely an entertainment value thing. Some people seem to take rock-n-roll so seriously that they cannot enjoy something just for this aspect. This seems to be one of the great divides between rock critics and musicians/audience in my opinion. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 03:28:18 -0400 From: Ben Subject: Re: random rant a la Eddie Eb wrote: > Today I turned on the opening minutes of the Jerry Lewis Telethon, just to Gasp! I have to give Eb 5-stars or an A+ (whichever you prefer) for his assessment of Jerry Lewis, the guy is so full of himself it's unbelievable. The only enjoyment one can get out of him is to watch him squirm when someone inevitably calls in to the telethon and let's the "Ba-ba-booey's" fly! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 02:44:17 -0500 From: JH3 Subject: Re: random rant a la Eddie Eb wrote the following, no doubt in an effort to alienate the entire French cultural establishment: >I think this incident may even replace my past favorite Jerry >memory -- when he introduced the Japanese jazz-fusion group >Hiroshima a few years ago, and did it in a burlesque "ah so" >Confucius voice, complete with squinty eyes, buck teeth and >hands clasped under his chin. Ho ho ho. What a lark this guy is. If you really want to make it a Tewsesque rant, you really should mention "The Day the Clown Cried", Jerry's unfinished movie project about a circus clown (played by Jerry himself) who gets hired by the Nazis to perform for Jewish children as they enter the gas ovens at Auschwitz - so that they'll want to enter the ovens without being forced. This might sound like a bad joke on my part, but apparently this project actually got some initial financing and a couple of reels were even filmed before the backers got wind of what sort of incredibly tasteless and offensive movie they were making and bowed out. Supposedly Lewis himself now holds the only extant footage and refuses to discuss anything about it. For details, check out the May 1992 issue of Spy Magazine. (BTW, there must be a few other ex-Spy subscribers around here. Anyone else care to come clean?) One more thing: I wasn't around when the subject came up, but the phrase "heavy metal" doesn't appear anywhere in William S. Burroughs' "Naked Lunch." However, the word "gondola" appears several times... probably just a coincidence. Hiiiiidey-how, John "Short-Fingered Vulgarian" Hedges ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 03:45:54 -0400 From: Ben Subject: Re: Zep (long, some Robyn content, delete at will) Miles Goosens wrote: > Eb speaks to me: > >to me right now. Hrm. I don't think your "the HOTH through In Through the > >Out Door period contains the more valuable material" argument is nearly as > >popular as you say. Presence and In Through the Out Door were a clearcut > >step down in my opinion, and I don't think this is such an unusual view. > > I dunno -- admittedly my memories of the late '70s may not be that sharp, > but I distinctly remember some of those rockcrits who had sneered at Zep > for years warming to PRESENCE and IN THROUGH THE OUT DOOR. Heck, I think > Jesus H. Christgau even gave IN THROUGH THE OUT DOOR a B+ or better, and > said something about how he always knew there was a pretty decent art-rock > band lurking in Zep. Anyone armed with an actual copy of one of > Christgau's rock guides is welcome to correct me. > > I used to not like PRESENCE myself, but I was cured of that when the first > Zep box came out. Discs three and four mixed in the PRESENCE material with > stuff I had always loved from PHYSICAL GRAFFITI and IN THROUGH THE OUT > DOOR, and much to my surprise, the PRESENCE material fit right in. > > >Graffiti was superb stuff. Page was just a WIZARD when it came to his > >endless bag of guitar riffs and his ability to layer so many multiple > >guitar parts in such exciting ways (no wonder they were a disappointing > >live band -- there were just too many parts for Page to cover by himself). > Actually, when they were on Zep was great. Unfortunately "The Song Remains The Same" is just a crappy performance, but those tape hoarders out there know that they could kick ass on stage. As for the early Zep vs. later Zep, here's an example when we can just say they RAWKED, and leave it at that. Maybe it's just me, but the fact that people are discussing the clever musicality of the Mighty Zeppelin is pretty funny. Sure, Jimmy Page was great and all that, but it's just rock 'n' roll kids! Intellectualizing over the ingenious craftsmanship on "Custard Pie" is why I can't take the world of rock criticism seriously. :) Not to be taking a stab at Eb or critics, I love reading reviews and scholarly overviews of rock 'n' roll (and have written some myself), and am glad that there are such folks who see that there is as much artistic merit in rock artists as there is in classical or jazz. But in the end, isn't it plain to see that what makes rock so great is it covers the ground between mindless power chords and the ultra-artistic? ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V7 #348 *******************************