From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V7 #284 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Thursday, July 23 1998 Volume 07 : Number 284 Today's Subjects: ----------------- a randi update...a bit of Robyn content [Tim Fuller ] Re: 50s, 60s, ska [M R Godwin ] Re: 50s, 60s, ska [amadain ] Re: Do you hear violins? [amadain ] zombies influenced: [Russ Reynolds ] Re: zombies influenced: ["Khoi Huynh" ] RE: zombies influenced: ["Chaney, Dolph L" ] Re: before nmh in dc [Aaron Mandel ] 1974 and that gold malibu. ["Scott (Ferris) Thomas" ] The socio-fascist web the DNC has weaved [Gregory Stuart Shell ] Re: The socio-fascist web the DNC has weaved [Eb ] Re: Jon Brion [Eb ] coincidentally ["Capitalism Blows" ] For extra points, discredit Stalin [Terrence M Marks Subject: a randi update...a bit of Robyn content For those kind people in fegland... Randi is missing being able to post - especially being Canadian - she has lots to say about the "capitalist" thread - but the thread may be gone before she can write. She's kinda hooked up to tubes and i.v.'s and oxygen and getting blood transfusions {safe we hope - Rand was one of the first people who got AIDS tested blood in Canada back in November of 1995} and she's got 105 temperature, septicemia...and other things I won't get into on the list. woj said it was okay with him {as listminder} if I wrote an update - so here it is. Her friends in Toronto are staying with her 24 hours a day - we take shifts - sometimes she knows we are there - sometimes not. But she WILL be okay - she always pulls through. Last night she was to reach trying for Sarah's {her friend who gave her the laptop and modem} computer - so she wants to write - the doctors just don't want her to move, at all! But she smiles when she knows someone is there - even though right now she can't talk - and she says *hi* to everyone in fegland I'm sure - and if any one wants more info - please do not hesitate for a second - write me please - Rand is not afraid of answering questions - that's her whole point of being - she figures she's sick so she can write books and make documentaries to help others so they don't have to go through what she has... Hope all of you are well - it's that hot in Texas Marcy? I thought T.O. was sweltering... And Eddie - Randi may or may not have said this - but you'll have a place to crash in T.O. when you follow Robyn around - and Randi hopes to go with you to Montreal, Detroit, Ottawa, Montreal...and wherever else some of RH's itinerary takes him. Take care all, Tim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:29:32 +0100 (BST) From: M R Godwin Subject: Re: History of the World, pt 3 On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Terrence M Marks wrote: > Yugoslavia: Led by Tito, leader of Yugoslavian resistance movement. Not only that, but specifically leader of the Communist resistance movement. Mihailovich, the leader of the royalist resistance, was dropped flat by the allies when they switched support to Tito. After the war, this resulted in large numbers of royalist refugees being sent back to Tito and probable execution. Record libel damages have been awarded against Count Tolstoy who tried to expose the facts, so I am unable to elaborate, but it would appear that Harold Macmillan, later to become British PM, was involved in this nasty business. - - Mike Godwin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:38:32 +0100 (BST) From: M R Godwin Subject: Re: 50s, 60s, ska On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, James Dignan wrote: > >_50s_ > no Chubby Checker? Fats Domino only 'bubbling under'? Definitely no Chubby Checker. Apart from the fact that he's 60s and not 50s, CC is just a Sam Cooke copyist who got lucky with a novelty song. And Chuck Berry is definitely number 1. I recently had the pleasure of seeing his 1956 performance in 'Rock rock rock' (a film with a truly banal plot concerning Tuesday Weld's party dress). He plays "You can't catch me", which includes the familiar line "Here comes old blacktop he comes driving up slowly". Stunning performance. > >_60s_ > no Who but you include the Bonzos in your bubbling under? I think there are one or two other Bonzos fanatics on this list. Maybe I should have included the Mothers as well. I completely forgot about the Who - put them in around number 17, submerged just beneath the bubbling under... > Hmmm... and I'd > replace the Hawks with the Band. Yes, I know,. but it was the later > incarnation who were the more successful and better known, as well as > producing (for the most part) the better music. Then there's a distinct > paucity of Motown, and country rock, and the Beach Boys, and... etc etc etc Well, it's Bob and the Hawks who changed rock music completely. Whether the Band also deserve a separate entry is a different point. It's difficult to single out a specific Motown act which stands out above the others (if pressed to do so, I would pick the Temptations). Country rock is, on the whole, more 70s than 60s - and I did select the Byrds, who were the godfathers of country rock. I would see the Beach Boys as evocative of the 60s era rather than definitive in the sense of setting the agenda for subsequent bands. The other person I should have mentioned, although he's a songwriter rather than a performer, is Burt Bacharach, who set the agenda for whole swathes of sophisticated singer-songwriters, like Carole King. Then I suppose I have to worry about fitting in Goffin-King, Mann-Weil and all those Brill building outfits too... As for a ska track, it has to be "I dream of Antwoman". (Well, maybe more of a reggae dub than out and out ska). - - Mike Godwin n.p. "Do the ostrich" by the Primitives ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:31:21 -0600 From: amadain Subject: Re: 50s, 60s, ska >Well, it's Bob and the Hawks who changed rock music completely. Whether >the Band also deserve a separate entry is a different point. It's >difficult to single out a specific Motown act which stands out above the >others (if pressed to do so, I would pick the Temptations). For me at least that isn't hard at all, and much as I love the Temps I'd not choose them. 1. Smokey Robinson- as a performer but most importantly as the guy who WROTE practically all those songs and basically defined the whole sound :). And when Bob Dylan called him a poet, he really wasn't joking. 2. Marvin Gaye- as a performer, as a writer, as someone who changed the face of soul music forever when he single-handedly took it into the realm of social protest and more intimate personal content than it had ever contained before, paving the way not just for political rap music and black social protest music of the 70s, but for unusually individualistic performers like Al Green. There would have been no Curtis Mayfield or Al Green as we know them if Marvin Gaye hadn't come first. Love on ya, Susan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:00:18 -0600 From: amadain Subject: Re: Do you hear violins? >Susan D. wrote: > >>1. Smokey Robinson- as a performer but most importantly as the guy who >>WROTE practically all those songs and basically defined the whole sound :). > >>2. Marvin Gaye- as a performer, as a writer, as someone who changed the >>face of soul music forever... There would have been no Curtis >>Mayfield or Al Green as we know them if Marvin Gaye hadn't come first. > >So, what you're basically saying here is that Marvin was the innovator, >but nothing can compare to when Smokey sings? Er no, I'm responding to Mike Godwin's post saying that it would be difficult to choose out those "bubbling under" among Motown artists. These two for me are the important innovators, les deux of them :). The numbering is arbitrary. I also said (see above) Robinson is important IMO as the main writer and definer of the "Motown Sound", which is not the same as saying he is less or more of an innovator or that Gaye is a lesser vocalist. Love on ya, Susan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 98 11:56:00 -0800 From: Russ Reynolds Subject: zombies influenced: has anyone noticed Neutral Milk Hotel in the "followers" section of the Zombies' entry on the All Music Guide? Just had a friend rave to me about the Z's box set, by the way. So much so that I think I'm going to return the Odessey & Oracle 30th anniversary CD I bought yesterday and upgrade to the complete box (apparently O&O is included in the box). I don't really need a stereo & mono version of the album on one disc anyway. I'm amazed that the Zombies have never ONCE reunited. Talk about a band that went out at the top of their game... ObRob: Would love to hear Robyn Hitchcock cover "Butcher's Tale" some time. - -russ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 98 11:59:17 PDT From: "Khoi Huynh" Subject: Re: zombies influenced: REPLY TO 07/22/98 11:57 FROM rreynold@ksjo.com "Russ Reynolds": zombies influenced: >I'm amazed that the Zombies have never ONCE reunited. Talk about a band >that went out at the top of their game... I believe they actually did a one-off reunion gig in London when the box set was released last year. To: rreynold@ksjo.com cc: FEGMANIAX@SMOE.ORG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:01:43 -0400 From: "Chaney, Dolph L" Subject: RE: zombies influenced: Actually the Zombies did reunite, as Khoi just said while I was typing. Go see http://users.aol.com/bocad/zomreuni.htm for the full story -- it was 25 November 1997 at the Jazz Cafe in Camden Town. Dolph a.k.a. he who gets to meet David Librik, Natalie Jacobs, and Mary Huey this weekend! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:26:18 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: before nmh in dc DMW: >but anyway, i'd suggested polly's @ 7ish, but neal wisely points out that >this could involve a lot of standing around at the 'cat from 8.30 til ten >or so waiting for band 1 of 3. (btw: there's a bit of a 'buzz' on about >of montreal (perhaps just because of the "of" in their name) but i haven't >seen/heard 'em yet. and why does phil krauth sound so familiar? can't >quite place it) Of Montreal is utterly underrated, and utterly adorable. I would *love* to see that band live, but they haven't made it to California yet, as far as I know. And if anyone doesn't know, be advised that the group is from Athens, GA, not Montreal. So don't worry, they may be a somewhat "precious" band, but at least they're not a precious CANADIAN band. We all know how deadly those can be. Phil Krauth used to be in Unrest, has a solo album or two on TeenBeat and probably has been in some other short-lived indie-rock collaborations which I can't name. Bob Miranda is still seriously involved with painting and competes with Dave in writing songs for their publisher, Bright Tunes Music Corp. Eb PS Celebrity deaths: Robert Young, Alan Shepard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:07:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: before nmh in dc On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Eb wrote: > Bob Miranda is still seriously involved with painting and competes with > Dave in writing songs for their publisher, Bright Tunes Music Corp. eb, you do have this serialization thing automated, don't you? a ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:11:34 -0400 From: "Scott (Ferris) Thomas" Subject: 1974 and that gold malibu. When last we left Ferris he was reading... > Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:41:00 -0400 > From: frater tot > Subject: 1974 > > so, susan werner, one of the few singer/songwriters ("contemporary" folk, > new acoustiks, whatever you want to call them) that i do like (sorry to > burst your bubble, eb), has written a new song called "the year of the bad > president". > > yup, it's about 1974. > > must have been something in the water... > > +w File this under Casual Observations: There is also the new(-er? -est?) James Taylor album with "I remember Richard Nixon back in '74....a tiny little tear in his shifty little eye..." And, yes, Repoman was the litany back in the day. That and "Decline of Western Civilization," "Better Off Dead," etc.etc. etc. "Night? Day? Doesn't mean shit in the life of a Repo man." -H.D. Stanton. Back to pecking. ______________________ Ferris Scott Thomas Programmer Funnybone Interactive ______________________ Pecking for the pellet. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:17:02 PDT From: "Capitalism Blows" Subject: all the godforsaken patriotic-types ought to enjoy this ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:49:47 PDT From: "Capitalism Blows" Subject: Re: History of people of all races and both sexes, military or civilian oh man, i couldn't possibly agree more with this statement! yes, i know i promised to shut up, and i'll try to keep this brief. but i do want to address this a little bit. first off, i think you're right, chris. i think i probably do use a little looser definition of "fascism," than you do. for example, when you say there were never any fascists in vietnam, my response is, there was the french empire (before, and then after, the war,) which, as far as i can tell, was tantamount to fascism. now, i think it's critically important to understand that the soviet union, for all its bluster, was never about spreading any sort of worldwide revolution. in fact, it was the primary factor in *allowing* the u.s. to so successfully stem the revolutionary tides of the peoples of europe and asia who were sick and fucking tired of the bosses' wars. if you look, you'll see that those countries in which the soviet union had the *most* influence had the most timid communist parties, and vice versa. in other words, the soviet union played a MASSIVE role in protecting the status quo (this is after the war. during the spanish civil war, they'd *really* shown their true colors, and how anybody could equate the soviet union and "revolutionary fervor," or "whatever you may call it" after its large role in destroying the spanish revolution is quite beyond my grasp.) we can guess at the soviet union's motives, but the results of its actions are beyond question. as to the nature of u.s. foreign policy, it was NEVER about anti-communism, though that is of course how it was sold to the public (and the congress, which was, after the war, actually pretty independent.) did we invade the soviet union, a peasant country which had just been torn apart by war and revolution because we were afraid of commies showing up on out doorsteps? can anybody really believe this is the case? we invaded the soviet union because it tried to extract itself from the world economy. pure and simple. and that's pretty much how it's always worked, as miles mentioned. sukarno was very anti-communist, but he just wasn't friendly enough to u.s. business interests, and so had to go (along with a quarter million other indonesians, at which the u.s. planners, literally, expressed the utmost glee.) same was true, as has been mentioned, in iran and guatemala. and where there *were* communists involved, they were generally successful not because of the soviet union's influence, but despite it. moreover, it all started way before there were any commies to blame, and it hasn't diminished now that the commies are gone. the year after the soviet union collapsed, we didn't miss a beat, we just changed the tune from "anti-communism" to "anti-terrorism." one more thing. "left wing dictatorship" is an oxymoron. there. how was that for "keeping it short"? "Rock music will never die. Don't try to shatter it." --Wesley Willis ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:08:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Condiment Spice Subject: Re: all the godforsaken patriotic-types ought to enjoy this On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Capitalism Blows wrote: > > Dammit, Tews! You're gonna get us working shits in seriuos trouble one day. And, all I be able to do is laugh. .chris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:09:50 -0500 From: nicastr@idt.net (Ben) Subject: Re: Do you hear violins? >>>2. Marvin Gaye- as a performer, as a writer, as someone who changed the >>>face of soul music forever... There would have been no Curtis >>>Mayfield or Al Green as we know them if Marvin Gaye hadn't come first. Actually, Curtis Mayfield was doing socially-concious music with the Impressions before Marvin Gaye, and he was also writing and producing hits long before Marvin Gaye. Nothing against Gaye, of course he was a genius, but I think Mayfield is the most underrated soul/r&b artist of his time... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:24:16 -0400 From: "Marcy Tanter" Subject: Re: History of people of all races and both sexes, military or civilian "And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make." :0) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:51:01 -0700 From: chris franz Subject: Re: Shall we go... further? + Jon Brion sez Ben: >BTW - has anyone ever gone "on tour" with Robyn, a la the Deadheads who >would follow them from show to show? Obviously, I doubt if anyone has gone >on an extensive journey to see an entire run of RH shows, but has anyone >caught, say, more than 5 shows in a row? From Bumbershoot in August of last year through April's Great American Music Hall show, I think the only North American Robyn show I missed was at the SXSW premiere of the film. That's more a coincidence of where he happened to be playing rather than sheer fanaticism on my part; I used to live (fairly) near to Largo, then moved to San Francisco (coincidentally just before the film's showing here), and it happened to be a convenient time for me to make it up to Seattle last year. On another note, Jon Brion's online discography lists the following as being produced by him: Aimee Mann: Whatever Murray Attaway: In Thrall Jude Cole: I Don't Know Why I Act This Way Aimee Mann: I'm With Stupid Fiona Apple: Tidal and it at least implies that he also did Rufus Wainwright's latest. Is someone out there familiar with all or most of these? How's he likely to affect Robyn's next studio album? - - Chris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 20:53:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Gregory Stuart Shell Subject: The socio-fascist web the DNC has weaved On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Capitalism Blows wrote: > little looser definition of "fascism," than you do. for example, when Stalin was a fucking socio-fascist pig > now, i think it's critically important to understand that the soviet > union, for all its bluster, was never about spreading any sort of > worldwide revolution. in fact, it was the primary factor in *allowing* What a laugh. > independent.) did we invade the soviet union, a peasant country which You mean the country of sheep that had been gagged and beaten by their fascist leaders and an army that followed without question and killed over 20 million of its own people? We are talking about the same Union of Soviet Socialists Republic, correct? > had just been torn apart by war and revolution because we were afraid of > commies showing up on out doorsteps? can anybody really believe this is And they goddamn would have been at our fucking doorsteps had we not scared the pinko bastards away > one more thing. "left wing dictatorship" is an oxymoron.' Funny how left and right wing designations get reassigned when the left loses control of something. When the socio-fascist-left wing communist bastards were in control of Russia, they were the left wing and the democracy advocates were called the right wing. But after the right-wing won, they were then called the left-wing by the press and the communists were called the right-wing. Every liberal I know today calls the democratic leaders in Russia the left wing and the socio-fascist-left wing communist bastards the right wing. Another reason why all Democrats should have a 41 year waiting period before they get to breed. "Left Wing Democracy", now that is an OXYMORON. Here is part of a song by one of my favorite bands. I started listening to this when I was about 11. By the time I was 14, I was listening to this every morning before school. I would turn it up real loud to cover the sound of the gurgling bong and then run over to the window and blow out the hit. I remember once after I took a hit and went into the bathroom to brush my hair, only to come out and find my mom standing with the bong and tray. It was some really good sensimilla bud that weighed at least 10 grams. She put the bong and tray in her room and then walked out to the garage to get my dad. Before they got back I had taken another bong hit and snagged at least half the bud. I got lectured, watched my dad destroy the bong and then watched him flush the remaing bud down the toilet. I took off for school, went by my girlfriends house and we smoked a bowl from a pipe she had made on our way to junior high in Plano, Texas. Wow, those were the days, sex was clean and pot was seedless. "When the ebbing tide recedes Along the rocky shore line. It leaves a trail of tidal pools, In a short-lived galaxy. Each microcosmic planet A complete society A simple kind mirror To reflect upon our own. All the busy little creatures Chasing out their destinies But living in the pool, they soon forget about the sea. Wheels within wheels in a spiral array, A pattern so grand and complex, Time after time we lose sight of the way, Our causes can't see their effects." - Neil Peart Regards, Gregory S. Shell Subversive Specialist System Analyst ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 21:52:57 -0400 From: mellon farmer Subject: 25% robyn random quips and such: 1) the most shows i've ever seen on a robyn tour is three as well (the washington, philadelphia, new york circuit). i've done it three times: 1992, 1993, and 1996. 2) i don't have any u2 records either, eb. dunno which one of us has more albums though -- probably you. i'll settle for largest u2-less collection on the east coast. 3) i watch south park. i like south park. their catch phrases have infiltrated my speech. however, i wish they would offend me just once. 4) i don't think tori amos is the artist of the 90s either. friend of mine and i were discussing this tonight. he suggested tricky, but then decided that he is probably the first artist of the 21st century instead. woj n.p. rufus wainwright (i confess, i posted this only to mention that) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:19:29 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: The socio-fascist web the DNC has weaved >Stalin was a fucking socio-fascist pig >What a laugh. >And they goddamn would have been at our fucking doorsteps had we not >scared the pinko bastards away >Every liberal I know today calls the democratic leaders in >Russia the left wing and the socio-fascist-left wing communist bastards >the right wing. Another reason why all Democrats should have a 41 year >waiting period before they get to breed. "Left Wing Democracy", now that >is an OXYMORON. Speaking of someone often known for causing "bad vibes," I'd just like to say that many of the comments presented in this thread are giving me the heebie jeebies, big-time. >"When the ebbing tide recedes/Along the rocky shore line." Damn those prog-rock drummers...always writing about us poor civilians. Among his credits: "Girl On a Swing," a big one for Jerry and the Pacemakers. Eb, wondering why such a dismayingly high percentage of Republicans can't express their views without sounding like smug, haughty, elitist windbags ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:33:49 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Jon Brion Chris: >On another note, Jon Brion's online discography lists the following as >being produced by him: > > Aimee Mann: Whatever > Murray Attaway: In Thrall > Jude Cole: I Don't Know Why I Act This Way > Aimee Mann: I'm With Stupid > Fiona Apple: Tidal > >and it at least implies that he also did Rufus Wainwright's latest. Is >someone out there familiar with all or most of these? How's he likely >to affect Robyn's next studio album? Brion also had a lot to do with Sam Phillips' last album. It's my least favorite Sam album (and I also must note that I traded back three of the discs listed above), but that's not Brion's fault. Actually, I'm really looking forward to hearing RH's next album, just *because* of the Brion factor. I think Brion might be one of RH's best-chosen producers EVER -- it's fully possible that he can supply the textural/arranging detail and guidance which I've found so lacking in most of Hitchcock's work. I mean, I think about hearing Robyn Hitchcock songs produced like Rufus Wainwright...spacious, airy, a bit of a Sgt. Pepper vibe, lots of little touches of hidden percussion and strings...sounds great to me! Hitchcock's recent albums have had such passively creamy, glossy mixes -- I think Brion's more "dry" approach could work very, very well. Oh, and in case anyone's interested, Brion is signed with Atlantic Records as a solo artist now. I'll be VERY interested to hear what he comes up with. By the way, Rufus performs in LA this Saturday. Woo! I am THERE, baby.... He expends a great deal of energy informing Dave that the group hates black pegged pants with chartreuse stitching. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 19:44:54 PDT From: "Capitalism Blows" Subject: coincidentally i just got the july/august z magazine. go check out the cover. this picture's worth WAY more than a thousand words. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 06:23:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Terrence M Marks Subject: For extra points, discredit Stalin Shortly after posting a url to the list and suggesting we check it out, revealing it to be at best quite distasteful, Capitalism Blows wrote: >i think i probably do use a little looser definition of >"fascism," than you do. for example, when >you say there were never any fascists in vietnam, my response >is, there was the french empire (before, and then after, the >war,) which, as far as i can tell, was tantamount to fascism. Care to post your def. of fascism, eddie? >now, i think it's critically important to understand that the >soviet union, for all its bluster, was never about spreading >any sort of worldwide revolution. To paraphraase Kimberly Rew, you've got a bad case of history. Have you ever heard of the Comintern? They're goal was to help Communist parties worldwide gain support and keep them in line. To say that the Soviet Union never tried to spread worldwide revolution would be to ignore the situations in: Afghanistan, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, Cuba, East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Spain, Greece, Hungary, North Korea, and South Korea. This is beyond my area of expertise, but I would suspect that the Sov aided the Communist Parties in Italy, China and North Korea. Now, you can say that the Bolsheviks in 1917 believed that a worldwide revolution wasn't necessary for the success of communism, unlike the Mensheviks. To say that the Communists approached this goal recklessly or with great urgency would be wrong. To say that they didn't have this goal would be even more wrong. >if you look, you'll see that those countries in which the >soviet union had the *most* influence had the most timid >communist parties, and vice versa. Timid? That depends on what you mean. If you mean that as "The Soviet Union had the most control when Communist parties were afraid to disobey it", then you're dead-on right. If you mean that as in "The Communist Parties under Soviet control were too weak/afraid to do anything" then one of us is very wrong about the nature of life in Eastern Europe during the Cold War. >in other words, the soviet union played a MASSIVE role in >protecting the status quo (this is after the war. during the >spanish civil war, they'd *really* shown their true colors, >and how anybody could equate the soviet union and >"revolutionary fervor," or "whatever >you may call it" after its large role in destroying the >spanish revolution is quite beyond my grasp.) Well, there were many sides to the Spanish Revolution, right, backed by Germany and Italy included the ultraconservative Carlists, the fascist Falange which was backed by Hitler and Mussolini, the frontist CEDA, and the Alphonsine Monarchists. The left included the Trotskyite Workers' Party of Marxist Unification, the anarcho-syndicalist CNI, the socialist PSOE and the Soviet-backed Communist Party and Basque separatists. As you can see, a fair number of the "Republican" forces didn't want to rebuild a peaceful American-style republic and the one that the Soviet Union backed probably intended to set up a Communist state. >did we invade the soviet union, a peasant country which >had just been torn apart by war and revolution because we were >afraid of commies showing up on out doorsteps? >can anybody really believe this is the case? We didn't really invade them, near as I can tell. Was the Soviet Union, c. 1946 a peasant country? Not by half. Though many large cities had been ravaged by the war, Stalin had been moving major production centers further east. They were left intact. As far as "just torn apart by revolution", the last White section, the Japan-backed Maritime Province, fell in 1946. The Communist hold over central Russia was never seriously challenged during the Russian Civil War. Describing Russia as war-torn would be inaccurate. >we invaded the soviet union because it tried to extract itself >from the world economy. pure and simple. and that's pretty >much how it's always worked, as miles mentioned. Did it? Are export/import figures available anywhere? Are fluctuations in the above figures more than can be accounted for by war and internal capitalisation? >one more thing. "left wing dictatorship" is an oxymoron. Well, what, pray tell, do you call Stalinism? Look at the Russian Civil War. War Communism was a left-wing dictatorship fighting right-wing dictatorships. Terrence Marks normal@grove.ufl.edu ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V7 #284 *******************************