From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V7 #282 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Tuesday, July 21 1998 Volume 07 : Number 282 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Still pointless. [edoxtato@ssax.com] Re: I've got shirt on my hair [nicastr@idt.net (Ben)] Re: toilets [lj lindhurst ] the nineties [Caroline Smith ] 3 dog night [Russ Reynolds ] DC NHM gig [Bayard ] Fwd: DC NHM gig ["Gene Hopstetter, Jr." ] Viva Las Vegas [griffith ] Re: History of the World, pt 3 ["Capitalism Blows" ] Re: rock lineages ["Capitalism Blows" ] Re: Off-Topic: Mac/Audio Experts? Help! [Tom Clark ] Re: DC NHM gig [nicastr@idt.net (Ben)] Re: New Songs (rock lineages) [nicastr@idt.net (Ben)] Re: I've got shirt on my hair [hal brandt ] Re: I've got shirt on my hair [hal brandt ] From www.mylaunch.com [Eb ] Big R's own psychedelic lips ["Matthew Knights" ] Re: off topic [Bayard ] Re: Shall we go... further? (10% Robyn content) [nicastr@idt.net (Ben)] Flesheads are not deadheads. [Capuchin ] neoBeetle mystery SOLVED! [Bayard ] Re: neoBeetle mystery SOLVED! [nicastr@idt.net (Ben)] Re: From www.mylaunch.com ["Capitalism Blows" ] Re: Flesheads are not deadheads. ["Bret" ] Re: History of the World, pt 3 [Terrence M Marks ] History of the World pts.4 through 739 [Christopher Gross >>>South Park >>>It is hard to imagine anything like that ever getting on tv. >>It's on good old plain TV here. We may be a messed-up little set of >>islands, but we know good teev when we see it. >Then explain the popularity of Baywatch in the UK? or Benny Hill? >:) One word: Jiggle. - ------------------------ Re: the current "The World V. Eb" raging Bored. Take it to another part of the playground guys. Fer crissakes... I'm tryin' ta watch the ballgame here! You boys wanna go play army, go play in the basement or in the backyard! Better still, you boys go help your mother! I'm sure she needs help mucking out the gutters. ...damn kids... - ------------------------ Re: www.bluerose.com (source for ordering the new Homer single) Um. This leads to a personal web page... which is nicely done, but not a source for ordering the new Homer single. - ------------------------ First good movie I've seen in ages: "Small Soldiers". Loads of fun, great pisstakes of verious army and horror films, nicely plotted and smartly written. Digital animation's good, and the voice casting was a masterstroke (the cast of the "Dirty Dozen" doing the commando voices and the cast of "Spinal Tap" doing the Gorgonite voices). - ------------------------ South Park? I enjoy it. I can't understand Cartman, but I still enjoy it. - ------------------------ Movie I keep meaning to see: "The Big Lebowski" - ------------------------- No Robyn content. OK, time to go to work. Look after yerselves... - -Ed, Doc, ...who remembers a time when A&E wasn't "The All Hitler Channel" and penny gums used to cost 10 cents... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:13:23 -0500 From: nicastr@idt.net (Ben) Subject: Re: I've got shirt on my hair >Like a dyed-in-the-wool COSTELLO-L veteran, Not to stir up more trouble, but... do you think there could be a connection between the "Eb-bashing" here and the Eb bashing that apparently took place on the Costello list? >OK, Dave -- WHAT IS YOUR DAMN QUESTION THAT YOU'RE SO INSISTENT UPON HAVING >ANSWERED? If it's whether I've heard this or that Dead tape from March '69 >or October '71 or August '68 that reveals God and the universe in all their >glory and disproves all my complaints about the band, pleeeeese don't >bother. Wow... this is weird. Eb picked 3 dates of classic Dead shows, March '69 (Fillmore West run, a tape horders favorite for years), October '71 (10/31/71, released on Dicks Picks 2) and August '68 (another release from this month, on Two From The Vault). Trying to hide something? :) P.S. - I *would* like to hear an Eb review of one of the Dead's releases that all of us indignant Deadheads agree is great, but I doubt GDM will send out any free copies. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:24:16 -0400 From: lj lindhurst Subject: Re: toilets >>And I refuse to accept weather-related needling >>from you, James, in a town where outside toilets are still the norm. ;) > >hmmm. the only outside toilets I've seen in Dunedin are at Carisbrook. You >sure you're thinking of the right Dunedin? :) Jesus fucking Christ on a Crutch, NOW at least here is something worth talking about! I had a dream last night that Eddie Tews came to visit us and he looked JUST LIKE Harry Chapin! And he was mad because we weren't home when he got here and he had to wait in a school cafeteria. l "eb-lovin" j ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:41:11 -0400 From: Caroline Smith Subject: the nineties i'm partial to beck as the artist of the nineties. but i'm torn towards radiohead too. i'm late to this thread. have they already been mentioned? anyone agree? caroline (i'm back) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 08:54:00 -0800 From: Russ Reynolds Subject: 3 dog night Terry akses: >Are there any original 3 Dog Night hits? >(I mean, there's Harry Nilsson's "One", Randy Newman's "Momma Told Me Not >To Come", Laura Nyro's "Eli's Coming"...) none of their hits. In fact the only thing I can remember with any songwriting credits from members of the band was a tune called "jam" or something. Like a lot of kids back then I was a big fan of theirs, but I became disillusioned and lost interest in the band after I found that out. They really did do a good job with other people's songs, though, much like Rod Stewart in the old days. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:17:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Bayard Subject: DC NHM gig so are we doing anything before the NHM show day after tomorrow? we could just meet in the red room, or... ben's chili bowl!!! heh heh. but do they have anything for vegetarians? remember to make the sign of the feg... =b "do it outdoors" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:31:15 -0400 From: "Gene Hopstetter, Jr." Subject: Fwd: DC NHM gig From: Bayard >so are we doing anything before the NHM show day after tomorrow? Whoa, cosmic. I *just* plunked the "In The Aeroplane..." CD into my 'puter, and I get this email. Too much. Erm, yeah, sure, whatever y'all wanna do. Seems the doors open at 8:30, and openers are Viva Satellite and Of Montreal, cover is $7. I'm all for food and beer before the gig. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:58:43 -0700 (PDT) From: griffith Subject: Viva Las Vegas Just got back from a very warm Las Vegas... Saw Penn & Teller at Bally's Casino. I actually _talked_ with Teller after the show. Funny guy. Has Robyn ever played in Las Vegas? Not as a lounge act (although I can imaging him doing "De Chirico Street" ala Bill Murray's Ted the Night Club Singer), but as his usual self? griffith = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Griffith Davies hbrtv219@csun.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:20:05 PDT From: "Capitalism Blows" Subject: Re: History of the World, pt 3 read: - --anything by gabriel kolko (though probably the most germane to this issue would be The Politics of War, The Limits of Power, Main Currents in Modern American History, and maybe The Roots of American Foreign Policy.) - --anything by noam chomsky (though probably the most germane to this issue would be American Power and the New Mandarins, Year 501, Deterring Democracy, and The Washington Connection and Third World Fascism.) - --anything by george orwell (though probably the most germane to this issue would be Homage To Catalonia and Collected Letters, Essays, and Journalism, vol. I.) - --anything by emma goldman (who of course died before the outbreak of world war II, but Vision on Fire is germane, and the issues are all the same anyway, really.) - --Bruce Cumins, The Origins of the Korean War - --Dante Puzzo, Spain and the Great Powers, 1936-1939 - --David Schmitz, The United States and Fascist Italy, 1922-1940 - --Freedom Press, World War--Cold War (anthology) also, there was an issue of The Raven devoted to world war II. i want to say #29, but i'm not sure about that. - --I.F. Stone, The War Years (anthology) - --Daniel Guerin, Fascism and Big Business the chomsky and kolko books especially have tons of footnotes, so then you can pick and choose other sources as they interest you. the biggest thing i want to take issue with, and then i *promise* to shut up, is the notion that we installed democracies in europe after the war, because this really is the crux of the matter. we have NEVER had a problem with fascism per se. in fact, quite the opposite. the thing we really loved about the fascists is that they really knew how to keep their working classes in line. and this is why we not only put the fascists back in power throughout europe and asia, but many of the same *people* that had been running the fascist states throughout the war. in fact, it's almost comical in a way. we wouldn't allow the germans to surrender to the french resistance, or the japanese to the korean resistance. and the japanese asked our *permission* to put down an incipient korean working class revolt, which we of course happily granted. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:23:27 PDT From: "Capitalism Blows" Subject: Re: rock lineages i HOPE that one of them was Motherfuker. in order, the ten best songs since ELIXIR (in my opinion): 1. Elizabeth Jade 2. 1974 3. Jewels For Sophia 4. Viva Sea-Tac 5. Adoration of the City 6. I Thought I Heard NASA Clapping 7. Thundering 8. Green Storm Lantern 9. Where Do You Go When You Die? 10. I Used To Love You "Rock music will never die. Don't try to shatter it." --Wesley Willis ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 98 11:45:29 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: Off-Topic: Mac/Audio Experts? Help! On 7/19/98 3:43 PM, MARKEEFE@aol.com wrote: > I recently got a CD burner and am now trying to figure out the best way >to record some vinyl onto CD. I've got Toast, but that only seems to be set >up for reading off of a CD or for compiling existing AIFF files (right?). >So, >I guess my question is this: What do I need to do in order to get the audio >that's coming through the 1/8" jack on the back of my G3 into an AIFF file? >Can Toast do that? Do I need additional software? Is there something I can >download? If you don't have L/R RCA inputs, you can probably pick up some sort of adapter at Radio Shack that will allow you to pipe L/R RCA into a 1/8" mic jack. As far as software, I use Premier because it has some decent editing functionality. You could get by quite nicely with Ultra Recorder 2.4, which is $20 shareware. To really do it right, try an AudioMedia III card from DigiDesign and Adaptec Jam. That should only set you back around $1300! - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:06:29 -0500 From: nicastr@idt.net (Ben) Subject: Re: DC NHM gig >so are we doing anything before the NHM show day after tomorrow? we could >just meet in the red room, or... ben's chili bowl!!! heh heh. but do >they have anything for vegetarians? Heh... I've actually dined at Ben's Chili Bowl. They have cheese fries, for vegetarians. :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:06:33 -0500 From: nicastr@idt.net (Ben) Subject: Re: New Songs (rock lineages) >of them was a blatant Rolling Stones ripoff) and then sold the CD on.> >i HOPE that one of them was Motherfuker. > >in order, the ten best songs since ELIXIR (in my opinion): > > 1. Elizabeth Jade > 2. 1974 > 3. Jewels For Sophia > 4. Viva Sea-Tac > 5. Adoration of the City > 6. I Thought I Heard NASA Clapping > 7. Thundering > 8. Green Storm Lantern > 9. Where Do You Go When You Die? >10. I Used To Love You I'd put "Daisy Bomb" and "Loop The Loop" somewhere on there. And does "Surfer Ghost" or "Shadowcat" count as post-Elixir? I guess not. But they're pretty close so I'd add them also. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:01:06 -0600 From: hal brandt Subject: Re: I've got shirt on my hair Just saw The Other Ones at Furthur Fest this weekend and I defy even the naysayers of the Dead to say this band has any kind of a brain-fry beat going on. I must say that Garcia didn't really hold up his end the last few years (bless his failing heart) and in his absence The Other Ones are super tight. The setlists are great, too. At Fiddler's Green (July 19) the set had a thick ol' Playin' sandwich with Samson, drums>space, Wharf Rat and more as filler...with a Ripple encore! And look for Mickey Hart's new RAMU fueled Planet Drum disc SUPRALINGUAL in stores August 4th with a tour to follow. Ahhhh...! /hal ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:04:56 -0600 From: hal brandt Subject: Re: I've got shirt on my hair Just saw The Other Ones at Furthur Fest this weekend and I defy even the naysayers of the Dead to say this band has any kind of a brain-fry beat going on. I must say that Garcia didn't really hold up his end the last few years (bless his failing heart) and in his absence The Other Ones are super tight. The setlists are great, too. At Fiddler's Green (July 19) the set had a thick ol' Playin' sandwich with Samson, drums>space, Wharf Rat and more as filler...with a Ripple encore! And look for Mickey Hart's new RAMU fueled Planet Drum disc SUPRALINGUAL in stores August 4th with a tour to follow. Ahhhh...! /hal ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:29:50 -0700 From: Eb Subject: From www.mylaunch.com 'Storefront Hitchcock' Coming This Fall There's finally a tentative release date for Storefront Hitchcock, the film by Jonathan Demme and the accompanying live soundtrack album by veteran British eccentric Robyn Hitchcock. The album is tentatively set for an October 27 release date on Warner Bros., while the film is scheduled to open November 18 in New York. In making the film, Demme captured four performances by Hitchcock on December 10 and 11, 1996 in an abandoned New York City storefront located on 14th Street. For the shows, Hitchcock was backed by Tim Keegan (of Tim Keegan & Homer Lounge) on guitar and backing vocals, and Deni Bonet on violin. He performed a mixture of old favorites and songs specifically written for the performance. "Robyn and Jonathan devised the setlist," says Rick Gershon, Hitchcock's publicist at Warner Bros. Records. "Jonathan had a lot of input over what he wanted to hear in the film." Witnessing the performances was a select group of approximately 100 guests, including Hitchcock's mother and actor Tim Robbins ,who rollerskated by the storefront one day with his son. The interesting thing about the project--which will also be released on home video and possibly on vinyl--is that each configuration will have slightly different material, Gershon adds. In addition to Storefront Hitchcock, singer-songwriter Hitchcock has already completed another studio album, which will be released some time next year on Warner Bros. The album, which features contributions from L.A. session-player-about-town Jon Brion and Grant Lee Buffalo frontman Grant Lee Phillips, is the "best record Hitchcock has ever made," Gershon adds. ==== Best record he ever made? Oh Rick, Rick, Rick. You...publicist. ;) He is as thin as ever and knows that a suit will fit if it doesn't slide off a shotgun. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 23:55:05 +0100 From: "Matthew Knights" Subject: Big R's own psychedelic lips At the end of of Robyn's 12 Bar gig last February I distinctly heard - from Big R's own psychedelic lips - the promise "See you in July". I therefore thought Robyn meant to play in London this summer. Have I a) missed the gig b) missed the e-mail informing the WWW of alternative tour dates c) mis-heard Robyn I'm currently unsubscribed from Fegmainiax so if anyone knows when Robyn's next playing London feel free to e-mail me off list. I'd be very grateful. Matt _________________________________________________________________ Matthew Knights mk@harrywasp.prestel.co.uk Ton âme est un lac d'amour dont mes desirs sont les cygnes... _________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:56:43 From: Michael Hooker Subject: off topic hi, anybody know a place on the net to get cassette blanks cheap? thanks, Mike Hooker ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 19:30:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Bayard Subject: Re: off topic try tape.com On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Michael Hooker wrote: > hi, > anybody know a place on the net to get cassette blanks cheap? > > thanks, > Mike Hooker > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:07:04 -0500 From: nicastr@idt.net (Ben) Subject: Re: Shall we go... further? (10% Robyn content) >Just saw The Other Ones at Furthur Fest this weekend and >I defy even the naysayers of the Dead to say this band has any >kind of a brain-fry beat going on. I must say that Garcia didn't >really hold up his end the last few years (bless his failing heart) >and in his absence The Other Ones are super tight. The setlists are >great, too. At Fiddler's Green (July 19) the set had a thick ol' >Playin' sandwich with Samson, drums>space, Wharf Rat and more >as filler...with a Ripple encore! And look for Mickey Hart's new RAMU >fueled Planet Drum disc SUPRALINGUAL in stores August 4th with a tour to >follow. Ahhhh...! > >/hal I saw them at Nissan. They were better than any Dead show I saw or heard on tape since 1991, and this seems to be the general feeling about TOO. I have my fingers crossed for the fall! BTW - has anyone ever gone "on tour" with Robyn, a la the Deadheads who would follow them from show to show? Obviously, I doubt if anyone has gone on an extensive journey to see an entire run of RH shows, but has anyone caught, say, more than 5 shows in a row? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 18:11:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Flesheads are not deadheads. On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Ben wrote: > BTW - has anyone ever gone "on tour" with Robyn, a la the Deadheads who > would follow them from show to show? Obviously, I doubt if anyone has gone > on an extensive journey to see an entire run of RH shows, but has anyone > caught, say, more than 5 shows in a row? I think maybe I've done five in a row... I know I saw Robyn about 9 times last summer (including five times in Seattle, which is pretty incredible in itself). Nobody tops Lawrence and Sally, though. J. ________________________________________________________ J A Brelin Capuchin ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:19:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Bayard Subject: neoBeetle mystery SOLVED! I think I have tracked doen that mystery band that does the song in the Blue VW Beetle commercial, the one that sounds a little like oasis. the lyrics are "don't live in the same world/we don't live in the same world.." it's Hurricane, a band project of Andy Bell, formerly of Ride. I'm gonna buy it! =b ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 22:07:59 -0500 From: nicastr@idt.net (Ben) Subject: Re: neoBeetle mystery SOLVED! >I think I have tracked doen that mystery band that does the song in the >Blue VW Beetle commercial, the one that sounds a little like oasis. the >lyrics are "don't live in the same world/we don't live in the same >world.." > >it's Hurricane, a band project of Andy Bell, formerly of Ride. > >I'm gonna buy it! > >=b The CD or the car? :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:25:25 PDT From: "Capitalism Blows" Subject: Re: From www.mylaunch.com that's kinda funny, ben. i really thought about putting SurferGhost in that list, it's so damned good. but a rule's a rule, eh? true? which songs were written specifically for the movie? i don't have the setlist right handy, but i can't think of any songs in the flick that i hadn't heard by december '96. <"Robyn and Jonathan devised the setlist," says Rick Gershon, Hitchcock's publicist at Warner Bros. Records. "Jonathan had a lot of input over what he wanted to hear in the film."> robyn's explanation at the q&a was that they each wrote up a setlist, and then after they'd got done crossing off the songs they didn't like from each others' setlists, they had about 20 songs. coulda been joking, i guess. but he *sounded* on the up and up. i don't think that's in the movie, although it certainly should be! maybe it'll be on the home-video version. in the summer of '93 i took ten weeks off and drove 'round the country going to games in various baseball stadia (and one husky football game at ohio state.) basically from the moment i returned, people began asking me what my next major road trip would be, and i've been saying all the whole time that i'm going to follow robyn around north america. i was all set to do it this summer, and now he's not touring this summer. if he goes out in the fall to support the movie, i'm *probably* gonna do it then, though i'd *rather* do it in, say, late summer/early fall, before driving conditions get really nasty. anyhow, yes. i plan to challenge bayard's standing as most-met feg, and OBLITERATE eb's standing as most-despised feg. np, dead milkmen, BEELZEBUBBA, and wondering if i like it enough to put it in my all-time top 20. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 20:26:07 -0500 From: "Bret" Subject: Re: Flesheads are not deadheads. >On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Ben wrote: >> BTW - has anyone ever gone "on tour" with Robyn, a la the Deadheads who >> would follow them from show to show? Obviously, I doubt if anyone has gone >> on an extensive journey to see an entire run of RH shows, but has anyone >> caught, say, more than 5 shows in a row? my best are 3 in a row, but I have done this thrice, does that count for anything? - -b ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:16:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Terrence M Marks Subject: Re: History of the World, pt 3 On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Capitalism Blows wrote: > shut up, is the notion that we installed democracies in europe after the > war, because this really is the crux of the matter. Italy: Democracy. Federal Republic of Germany: Democracy France: Military Republic Eastern European powers were under Soviet control (eg. Occupied by the Soviet Army at the end of the war and the other Allies had no control over this. > and this is why we not only put the > fascists back in power throughout europe and asia, but many of the same > *people* that had been running the fascist states throughout the war. Didn't I just disprove that? US power in Europe was limited at the time. In France: Tens of thousands of collaborators were killed. Vichy PM Pierre Laval was executed. Marshal Petain was found guilty of treason but allowed to live. Resistance leader Gen. DeGaulle installed as leader. West Germany: Led by centrists. Efforts made to keep extremists out of the gov't. Yugoslavia: Led by Tito, leader of Yugoslavian resistance movement. Italy: Some truth to this. The Allied forces never really dislodged the Fascists from Southern Italy and Sicily. Resistance was centered mainly in the north, and I doubt that the Allies had any realistic chance of removing them from power since the Italians themselves wouldn't. Czechoslovakia: Led by Benes and Masaryk, who were democrats, not Communists or fascists. Soviet Satellites: Is Stalin likely to put his enemies abck in charge? Well, he's the sort of dude who kills his friends, if that's any indication. That doesn't look to me like "putting the same fascists back in power". Looks a lot more like "got the fascists out of most of Europe and didn't think it worthwhile to extend the war to go after the remnants in some backwater." > in fact, it's almost comical in a way. we wouldn't allow the germans to > surrender to the french resistance, or the japanese to the korean > resistance. When did the Germans attempt to surrender to the French resistance? Did the Japanese attempt to surrender to the Korean resistance? (Besides, Germany surrendering to France would mean that the war between Germany and France was over. You can't end a war without both countries' consents.) Terrence Marks normal@grove.ufl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:29:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: History of the World pts.4 through 739 I usually ignore these threads unless they occur at a time when I am really in the mood for a politico-historical debate. This is one of those times. (The following will consist mainly of point-by-point responses to Eddie's posts; I've been up too long to write original essays. Most of you Fegs will probably want to skip this whole thread anyway.) On Sun, 19 Jul 1998, Capitalism Blows wrote: > direct American involvement in WWII. There was no other realistic > choice > that the US gov't could have taken.> > well, we could have renounced imperialism altogether. *theoretically* > we could have done that. but to renounce imperialism is really to > renounce capitalism itself. and why would the bosses do something crazy > like that? The automatic equation of capitalism and imperialism is Leninist mumbo-jumbo unworthy of serious response (though I'll whip one out upon request). I'm intrigued by the idea that the US could have avoided Pearl Harbor by "renouncing imperialism." In this case wouldn't renouncing US imperialism have been tantamount to acquiescing to Japanese imperialism? Or did you mean the US could have renounced imperialism *after* Pearl Harbor? If so, how does that qualify as a "reasonable choice"? > incidentally, the > japanese military leaders saw no way in hell for them to defeat the > united states. but they didn't see any other option. Not true. They didn't think they could conquer and annex the US, of course; but by 1941 they anticipated beating us in battle before we could bring our superior resources to bear, forcing us to sue for peace and accept Japan's conquest of Asia. This was, not the unanimous, but the majority opinion in the Japanese military and government at the time. > ok, let me restate it. *we* established the principle that the world > should be ruled by force. No, it was the Gog tribe of Cro Magnons who did that, ca. 500,000 BCE. > *we* established the principle that > colonialism/imperialism were (and, of course, still are) a-ok. (I assume that by "we" you mean "the Western Allies," not just the US.) Again, this has been the accepted principle since time immemorial, not some innovation of the capitalist powers. And at least there was substantial opposition to imperialism in the US (during and after the Spanish-American War, also to a lesser extent during and after the Mexican War.) I'm not saying that the US was innocent of imperialism (eg, there was little protest against the conquest of the American Indians), but our record wasn't *completely* without its good side. > i.e., you can take manchuria so > long as we get equal access. we'll even supply the oil without which > you couldn't even dream of it. Okay, so the US failed to stop Japan from conquering Manchuria, either directly or by banning trade with the Japanese. Guilty! But implying that we colluded with Japan is going too far. And later, during the Sino-Japanese war that started in 1937, the US did support China and put increasing pressure on Japan, including eventually an oil embargo. We're criticized for not doing it in 1931, but do we get credit for doing it in 1941? Nooooo.... > you can take czechoslovakia, (sp?) but > you've got to stop there. in a word: do whatever the fuck you want, > but DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT HARMING OUR PROFITS, or you're gonna have > trouble. This doesn't make sense even on its own terms. How did Germany's attack on Poland threaten Western profits any more than their earlier attack on Czechoslovakia did? Furthermore, your facts are off: the West didn't tell Germany it could have Czechoslovakia. In 1938, when Hitler was preparing to attack Czechoslovakia, Britain and France were increasingly worried about Germany, but unwilling to go to war. They convinced Germany to settle for a slice of Czechoslovakia if it would leave the rest alone. A few months later, Hitler broke the agreement and conquered the rest of Czechoslovakia. Britain and France did NOT say OK to this and protested vehemently (though again were unwilling to go to war). In later abortive negotiation attempts before the invasion of Poland, Britain made restoration of Czechoslovakia a basic demand. In short, no one told Hitler "do whatever the fuck you want as long as you don't threaten our profits." Profits never even entered into it; it was a matter of military power and German territorial ambition. (But if it's any consolation, you did spell Czechoslovakia right.) > 50 million dead bodies later, we'd proved that we were still the biggest > bullies on the block. Umm, well, we did win the war. I guess that could be described as "proving we were the biggest bullies on the block," but the same thing could be said about any other war. For instance: "After thousands of deaths Castro's army finally drove Batista from power, proving Castro was the biggest bully in Cuba." > and just to show that there weren't really any > hard feelings, we put the fascists right back in power in italy, germany > and japan (and korea, and vietnam, and france more or less. This is even farther from the truth than usual. Fascists were purged from power pretty effectively in all these countries (except Korea and Vietnam, which never had them). Some were cynically spared punishment because the Allies wanted their technical or intelligence advice, but they weren't put back in power (and the USSR was at least as guilty of this as the capitalist countries). There was Kurt Waldheim, of course, but he wasn't installed by the Allies, he was elected by his fellow Austrians, long after the war, and only because he concealed his fascist past. > killed > 100,000 people in greece to put the fascists in the saddle there. What? The deaths in the Greek civil war are at least as much the responsibility of the Communists as of their enemies. And AFAIK Greece has never had a fascist regime. A garden-variety military dictatorship or two, perhaps, but that's not the same as fascism; and it was the work of the Greeks themselves, not those nasty capitalist imperialists. > and of > course have been openly friendly with *any* dictatorship since, SO LONG > AS THEY'VE BEEN FRIENDLY TO U.S. BUSINESS INTERESTS.) True, the US has a lot to answer for in this regard; but you're still wrong about the motive. Business interests were always second to anti-Communism (although the business interests were sometimes a *close* second, as in Guatemala in 1954). Our aid to Communist Yugoslavia, for instance, was hardly based on Tito's slavish regard for US business. Terrance Marks spent some time refuting the idea that foreign policy is based strictly on business considerations. To save time, assume that I agree with most of what he said. On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, Capitalism Blows wrote: > read: [recommends about ten leftist authors who dealt with foreign policy at some point] Sure, by all means read them. Just don't read them exclusively or uncritically. (Man, all these commies bad-mouthin' America. How come our undemocratic capitalist rulers don't ban 'em? Hmm....) > --anything by george orwell (though probably the most germane to this > issue would be Homage To Catalonia and Collected Letters, Essays, and > Journalism, vol. I.) Interesting that you only cite Orwell's early works. Try reading the later volumes of his Collected Letters, etc., to see what he says about those who equate the capitalist democracies with fascism. > the biggest thing i want to take issue with, and then i *promise* to > shut up, is the notion that we installed democracies in europe after the > war, because this really is the crux of the matter. we have NEVER had a > problem with fascism per se. in fact, quite the opposite. the thing we > really loved about the fascists is that they really knew how to keep > their working classes in line. Can you cite any concrete examples of this love "we" had for fascism? Of course there was a pro-fascist fringe element in many democratic countries, just as there was a pro-Soviet movement in those same countries. But while the western democracies tolerated fascism, actual pro-fascists were rare; and their behavior in this regard was no more or less disgusting than that of the socialists in the same countries who worshipped Stalin. > and this is why we not only put the > fascists back in power throughout europe and asia, but many of the same > *people* that had been running the fascist states throughout the war. Again, this is simply not true. Where are these phantom fascist governments? Show them to me! (I suspect, though, that you're employing some special definition of "fascist," like "anyone who isn't a Marxist." You could also redefine "chair" to mean "a conical orange root vegetable," in which case a sentence like "I had a glass of chair juice at the health club" would make sense.) Once again, the necessary disclaimer: I'm not denying *all* capitalist crimes, just the ones that weren't actually committed. - --Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V7 #282 *******************************