From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V7 #266 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Saturday, July 11 1998 Volume 07 : Number 266 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: zombified [frater tot ] Re: Quote for Susan! [frater tot ] Re: More stuff. [frater tot ] syd shirt [dwdudic@erols.com (David W. Dudich)] Re: Quote for Susan! [Lobsterman ] Re: Darkness [amadain ] 1974 [frater tot ] Re: Gothics and Deadheads and Fegs, oh my! [Jon Fetter ] Moneywankers [Ross Overbury ] carriage returns need not apply ["Capitalism Blows" ] Re: syd shirt [Terrence M Marks ] Re: carriage returns need not apply [nicastr@idt.net (Ben)] Re: Revelling in evil (also long and also probably boring :)) [amadain ] Re: Crop Circles Are Go! [Zloduska ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:11:14 -0400 From: frater tot Subject: Re: zombified also sprach Ben: >He headed a band, called "Argent" funny enough, after the Zombies. I've >never heard them. you may have heard their big hit "hold your head up", noted for its excessive organ solo. woj ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:16:25 -0400 From: frater tot Subject: Re: Quote for Susan! also sprach Mark_Gloster@3com.com: >Robyn Hitchcock, May 30, 1990 (thanks Eddy!) There are two >recordings of this gig. I'd really like to get a copy of the >one that somebody tried to stop during the show, but Robyn >said he didn't mind if they taped it. that recording was made by carolyn hamilton (compiler of the print discography which the fan club sent out circa 1989). i've a first generation dub of this show if anyone is interested. +w ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:49:32 -0400 From: frater tot Subject: Re: More stuff. also sprach Capuchin: >Oh and hey, I meant to ask, are all Groovy Decay LPs on white vinyl? nope. the original pressing, on albion records, is not. >One last thing: I saw two copies of Element Of Light. They had different >covers, just so you know. So there's more than one vinyl edition. correct. the uk vinyl features the crab photo, while the american release on relativity features robyn on the rocks. the crab photo is on the inner sleeve of some copies of the relativity pressing. on a related note, i have one extra copy of the vinyl bootleg, _the hooded one_. first person to send me an address gets it for free. woj n.p. my scarlet life -- buzzbomb ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:00:28 GMT From: dwdudic@erols.com (David W. Dudich) Subject: syd shirt On Fri, 10 Jul 1998 15:59:18 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: > I recognize that, objectively, he's not very good -- but for >>some reason I have this bizarre attraction to his monotonous irrational droney >>songs. This didn't happen the first time I heard _TML_ -- I just went >>"what?!" > >Yeah, me too - I actually did try listening to TML a few months ago and >couldn't get past the 2nd or 3rd song. But I tried again and was rewarded. >I sort of like the bits where he hesitates between chords - I kind of root >for him: "Find the chord, Syd - find it - find it - yeah!" I have >"Barrett" too (I borrowed a tape from my sister with both albums on it) and >will listen to that shortly. Syd is...um..interesting. What does "Vegatable Man" sound like as originally done? Haven't heard it yet. "Word song" is sooo saddd. It is a broken mind. Personally, I'd rather have Robyn than Syd. Syd was neat, but.... > >Re. the Feg T-shirt, I would like to put in an impassioned plea that it be >a color other than white. I hate white and never wear it. Green, black, >blue, puce, whatever, but please not white... please? (I mean, unless >it's absolutely necessary...) As I said before, light green is appropriate. Given the fact that many feg's favs arew the green ones (IODOT, Eye, ME, even Queen Elvis), it makes sense. >> I have vector files of the Thoth symbol and a couple of pictograms >> lying around if anyone wants them. I could put them up on my website. > >John, do you have any idea how much some people {myself included} would >kill {sorry dave and luther ;} to have that stuff in their possession? Why apologize to me? :-) -luther ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:15:15 -0700 From: Lobsterman Subject: Re: Quote for Susan! >also sprach Mark_Gloster@3com.com: > >>Robyn Hitchcock, May 30, 1990 (thanks Eddy!) There are two >>recordings of this gig. I'd really like to get a copy of the >>one that somebody tried to stop during the show, but Robyn >>said he didn't mind if they taped it. > >that recording was made by carolyn hamilton (compiler of the print >discography which the fan club sent out circa 1989). i've a first >generation dub of this show if anyone is interested. hmmm, i have a 1st gen recording of that show which i got from a sf d-3 taper named thomas cruz. i wonder how the two recordings compare. the d3 recording i have is a bit muddy, the songs sound fine, but its hard to hear the in between song spoken bits. - -jbj - -*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-# John B. Jones Email: lobstie@e-z.net ICQ: 13097212 AOL IM: Lobstie House of Figgy-- http://web.syr.edu/~jojones/hitchcock.html "He treats objects like they're women!" -The Dude, "The Big Lebowski" - -*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-#-*-# ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:36:30 -0600 From: amadain Subject: Re: Darkness (snipped parts I agree with, me too and all that) >mortal world. While the dark side can be very cleansing and can rejuvenate >the soul, it does so in much more subtle ways than the depiction by modern >media. Hatred, tragedy and violence aren' t the products of darkness, the >land of sleep dreams and change. Tragedy, hatred and violence are the by >products of life and activity. I think this depends on what you define as dark side. Me I generally refer to those as dark side because I think of them as dark things and dark energy/destructive energy, as opposed to light/creative impulse/creative energy. And actually I believe that they too come from that land of "sleep, dreams, and change", because that land is basically amoral, and fertile, and things of -all- natures come from it. Tragedy, hatred, and violence are to be sure, actively perpetrated. I don't agree that they are the by products of activity necessarily, rather, that they come from within the individual who chooses, with a greater or lesser degree of choice of course (depending on their mental/emotional makeup, and how well that functions), to perpetrate them. And yes, I do mean perpetrate. Some tragedy is inevitable (death is inevitable, disease, misunderstandings, &C., all can't be avoided), but I'm not at all sure that hatred is inevitable, it is something you choose whether or not to express or act on, or even for some, you can eventually get to the point where it's something you don't even ever feel. Violence I also feel is a choice. If we are going to go around talking about how much better we are and "higher animals" and all that, perhaps we should think a little bit about not using the idea of "animal nature" to justify violent impulses. We're better than that when we raise and eat them and wear their skin, we justify THAT with saying we're "higher" animals, but that's pretty messed up logic IMO. We can avoid doing violence. We have the capability. And finally, yes, I don't know that everyone here was thinking of "modern media" examples such as Tarantino et al, certainly I wasn't unless you would include J.G. Ballard among "modern media", and that doesn't really seem to be what you meant. >isn't about molesting a juvenile, its about the craving, the planning the >rationale for doing so. It's not about the death toll in the latest >driveby, its about the understanding that may arise from the senseless loss >of human life, something that should be a naural complication for the >perpetrator of such a deed. Should be but often isn't. Interesting how this jibes with a conversation I was having with someone off list. About how the deficiency such people have seems to be -rational- rather than emotional, in other words, they don't empathize because they aren't capable of making the -logic- leap to the concept of thinking of other people as individuals who also have thoughts and feelings etc., therefore the emotional side can't follow, because conceptually they can't get there in the first place. It looks senseless to us but to those with no capacity for empathy, it makes sense to them. They have whys and wherefores. The complications arise because that individual's perceptions and actions are in deep conflict with others' values and ways of seeing the world, not because they themselves ever really fully -understand- the implications. The conflict isn't within them, it's truly outside. Sometimes they can see at least this far (e.g., Kurten, 'The Vampire of Dusseldorf", who said "It would be better for society if you locked me away"), sometimes not. Also, just a final note, I don't think anyone was saying the act was more important than the implications, in any event. > Our society uses darkness as the cover for evil, but it shouldn't be. You just seem to prefer another usage for darkness, as far as I can tell, and that's fine. But to say that it's a cover........ Yes, there are those who file it all away into "the darkness", that's the dark stuff and we'll put it away over there, we don't need to try to understand or grapple because it is so alien from us, so different, so DARK. And then gloat over it in such an odd way, reading Stephen King or what have you, but without thinking about it. So perhaps that is darkness of a kind too, being without the light of reason and refusing to attempt to shed it. I would resent furiously any implication that I personally do that, incidentally, so you have been warned :). >Perahps thanks to Milton we remember with fear our darkest hour, though >visions of horror can only happen in the light. Blood is warm and smooth >in the dark as are other bodily fluids; it is only in the light that it is >in crimson contrast with our frightened skin. That is a lovely paragraph :). I just wanted to say that. I would disagree summat again though, because horror can happen quite well in the dark. Anyone else (besides me, and they are out there though perhaps not on this list or not willing to speak) who has been brutally raped, and beaten on, in the dark, by someone they barely saw, can tell you that didn't happen in the light, in ANY sense. I didn't need to see to be frightened. And the blood felt just as horrifying at that moment, flowing, in the dark, as it did when I saw it later in the hospital. >side. The the plutonic yin of our universe isn't about bite anyone in he >ass. And if one visits the darkness one must leave it if he is to >accomplish anything. I do agree with you on this, that the notion of dark and light as radically separate, is not at all valid. Which is why I tried to be somewhat clearer above, about creative/destructive energy. Both kinds are needed for balance. To quote Yeats: "For God has pitched his mansion in the place of excrement/And nothing can be sole or whole, that has not been rent". Love on ya, Susan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:41:00 -0400 From: frater tot Subject: 1974 so, susan werner, one of the few singer/songwriters ("contemporary" folk, new acoustiks, whatever you want to call them) that i do like (sorry to burst your bubble, eb), has written a new song called "the year of the bad president". yup, it's about 1974. must have been something in the water... +w ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 14:12:07 +0800 From: Jon Fetter Subject: Re: Gothics and Deadheads and Fegs, oh my! >Ooh, yeah! Tell it! One subculture good, other subculture bad. Now, >what's your stand on coin collectors vs. stamp collectors? No one asked me, but I'd say they're both as contemptable and lowly as us aspirin-abusing fegs. A blisteringly boring question: Cat-killing "Lonely Goatherd"-yodelling stamp collectors are called philatelists. What is the official term for those father-raping secret-handshaking coin collectors? The rare inverted $.05 magenta Jon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:08:55 -0400 From: frater tot Subject: Re: Crop Circles Are Go! also sprach Eb: >The general fading of critical support for Robyn has little to do with >being dissonant vs. acoustic. It's more a question of him repeating himself >too much, and reverting to traditional folk-song structures which look >backward instead of forward. He's just not current anymore, and he used to >be. >Element of Light was a critics' favorite, and that's not "angular" or >"dissonant." And I don't really need to list all the acoustic >singer-songwriters who are current critics' favorites, do I? there seems to be a disconnect here. aren't all these acoustic singer/songwriters reverting to traditional folk-song structures as well? if so, why is there such a wellspring of critical support for them? do i misunderstand what you mean by "acoustic singer-songwriter", eb? for what it's worth, my perception is that robyn is still fairly well-received by the critics, despite not being "current" or "forward-looking", but, for those very reasons, doesn't receive much press. in other words, he's still a darling of the critics, but doesn't sell any magazines or newspapers. >Ani DeFranco >(for instance) can make acoustic songs which are topical and cutting-edge. >Hitchcock just hasn't kept up. huh? writing songs should not be a case of keeping up with the neighbors. sure, styles cycle in and out of popularity, but it's not some kind of race (outside of the top 40 billboard charts anyways) to stay one step ahead of the joneses. or the difrancos and berns, as the case may be. woj ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 98 15:18:30 EDT From: Ross Overbury Subject: Moneywankers > A blisteringly boring question: Cat-killing "Lonely > Goatherd"-yodelling stamp collectors are called philatelists. What is the > official term for those father-raping secret-handshaking coin collectors? Moneywankers, of course! Oh yes, and "numismatists", but I think that's just an insult, not the real term. - -- Ross Overbury Montreal, Quebec, Canada email: rosso@cn.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 13:15:52 PDT From: "Capitalism Blows" Subject: carriage returns need not apply one for the Am-I-Really-That-Predictable? file: we're starting up this anti-boeing campaign, and had a "homework" assignment which i won't bore you with the details of. but, we met the other night, and the question of course comes up: "so, who did their homework assignment?" i offered that i'd, "thought about it for ten seconds in the shower." "surely your showers last more than ten seconds??" "i meant, i thought about if for ten *of the* seconds that i was in the shower." "oh, what'd you think about for the rest of the time?" i opened my mouth to say, "robyn htichcock," but everyone around the table beat me to it. i'll say it's pleasing to me, yes. i'll even go so far as to say that i love jello's voice. i think you and me gonna have to step outside, eleanore. wesley willis is *not* annoying. wesley willis is a motherfucking GOD. and as soon as eb gets up an endorsement of him on his starfucker site, then eb can be a prophet. maybe you know more about this than i, dave. but my understanding has always been that A Clockwork Orange was banned in britain upon its original release. this so incensed kubrick, that he forbid it to ever be shown there. yeah. i *really* can't see kubrick doing something like that. are you sure about this, dave? what's so muddy about it? it's about as black and white as you could possibly get. assuming we're all working with similar definitions of, "evil," which i'd say is a pretty safe bet. i mean, it's one thing to contend that human beings (and animals and plants, as far as that goes,) don't have any rights, therefore, any harm that's inflicted upon them is their own fucking fault. though i of course vehemently disagree with this position, i at least give its proponents credit for being consistent. if, on the other hand, you say that you're a friend of both human rights *and* capitalism, then you're either lying, or are seriously deluded. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:17:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Terrence M Marks Subject: Re: syd shirt > Syd is...um..interesting. What does "Vegatable Man" sound > like as originally done? Haven't heard it yet. Like the Soft Boys' version, but without reverb and sung about 5 semitones higher, if I recall, and the breaks aren't nearly as smooth. Terrence Marks normal@grove.ufl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:28:47 -0500 From: nicastr@idt.net (Ben) Subject: Re: carriage returns need not apply >one for the Am-I-Really-That-Predictable? file: >we're starting up this anti-boeing campaign, and had a "homework" >assignment which i won't bore you with the details of. but, we met the >other night, and the question of course comes up: "so, who did their >homework assignment?" >i offered that i'd, "thought about it for ten seconds in the shower." >"surely your showers last more than ten seconds??" >"i meant, i thought about if for ten *of the* seconds that i was in the >shower." >"oh, what'd you think about for the rest of the time?" >i opened my mouth to say, "robyn htichcock," but everyone around the >table beat me to it. > Sometimes I wish I was a pretty girl, so I could think about Robyn Hitchcock in the shower... :) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:57:58 -0600 From: amadain Subject: Re: Revelling in evil (also long and also probably boring :)) >responsibility at all with parents like that. Sometimes these kids >transcend their background and become far more socially responsible >people than their parents, sometimes not. However I also know kids who >have had parents who care for them and who have provided a stable >environment and they gravitate towards peers who are self destructive. Oh yeah, of course. A lot depends on the child's character and general, for lack of a better word, potential. Some children will grow up socially responsible in spite of their home environment, it's not necessarily a prescription for doom, and the converse is true as well. I STILL think it's a parent's responsibility here too, to know their child. Wilfully ignoring is easier but has bad results, so many are like the parents in the song "No Thugs In Our House". I feel also that although the present may be stable, the past may not have been, a lot of children are ripped apart inside by say, what is actually a perfectly amicable divorce, and though the remarried home may be stable and supportive, the child is still in pain from that event. There is also this to consider. It is very hard to know what event or events may have set the child upon one or another path, without knowing the entire past of the family. Also I would respectfully submit that we don't -always- know what goes on in someone's house behind closed doors. A lot of very dysfunctional families can put on a really convincing face of stability. I've just seen this too many times and felt it shouldn't be left out of the mix here. I can't even count how many people I've known whose families appeared to be completely stable and loving, in front of strangers, and secretly the children or one of the spouses was living in terror and had just learned how to hide it expertly, in self-defense. Or how many people I've known who were in abusive relationships, yet to the world outside the relationship - -appeared- perfectly stable, the pain and the shame were deeply concealed. >it is so easy for young kids to access R or X rated media. Now forty years or >more ago it was pretty obvious who was in the right or wrong , say in a James >Cagney gangster movie. Was it really? The gangster character in film noir was often portrayed as sharp, clever, witty, a stylish guy. On the surface yeah, the bad guy, and he usually died or was in prison at the end, but he was often more attractive than the good guy, personality-wise. The good guys were often soppy :). In cases where they weren't (e.g., say, "The Maltese Falcon'), there was often some ambiguity as to who "the good guy" really was, in the sense that a character like Philip Marlowe is deeply conflicted and not always entirely purely ethical. I see those films as being extremely conflicted under the surface, even if there was a little caveat at the end about the "villain" being punished, it was often anti-climactic and something of an emotionally unsatisfying resolution, at least for me. >their own opinion and most films are open to interpretation.But at home, does >anyone adult ever discuss the meaning,morality,style of the film with kids ?, >a tiny minority I would guess. It sounds as if one adult at least is. That would be you :). >recognised that this minority would more likely be young. He >relinquished some profit in return for some social responsibility and I >admire him for it. With all due respect, I have a feeling this had more to do with British law concerning appropriate material and age strictions than it did with noblesse. The film is widely available in the US. >movie, but what if I produced a pro racist movie, modelled on the Romper >Stomper style ?.It would not be overtly racist , the lines would be blurred >like R Stomper, leaving the audience to make up their mind.Is it then ok for >me to say I have no responsibility for any racism that occurs as a result of >the film ?.Does the fact that it is "art " cover my ass? Yes and no. You're responsible for being a nasty piece of work, and for deliberately putting it out there with the -intention- of stirring hatred up. However, you aren't responsible for public reaction. If, for example, the vast majority of the general public were to reject this totally and denounce you for the asshole you are, you aren't responsible for THAT, are you? Are you only responsible if the intended effect occurs? >directors. actors have no social responsibility for possibly shaping >peoples attitudes? Nope. I don't believe so. The anger was there already, the idea would have occurred to the person eventually. If not from Charles Bronson then "eye for an eye" from the Bible would do just as well. I don't think that media SHAPES attitude, though I do believe that a positive presentation of such could be counted as encouragement. >hell, we have all sorts of lobbies complaining about >stereotyping of racial and sexual groups in ads, demonisation is common >in the press and Tv .Why when the stereotyping or demonisation occurs in a >film does all responsibility supposedly evaporate? Well, for one thing, it doesn't. The lobbies that complain about TV stereotyping also generally complain about films as well. I also believe that this is a slightly different issue. It's ok to have stereotype figures as far as I'm concerned, AS LONG AS, there are some measure of non-stereotyped characters being presented. The complaints come when there is a sense of unbalance. I believe also that we determine to some extent what we want to see, in the sense that the stereotypes presented -reflect- prevailing attitudes more than anything. They may perpetuate, but they don't create. And I believe personally that positive counterbalance is really the way to go. Also that choosing NOT to watch what we find objectionable is the best way to ensure it doesn't keep coming back. As a member of two sexual minorities, and arguably one gender minority (women aren't actually a minority population-wise, which really gives me a giggle, or a shudder, depending on my mood, when I see the term "minoritiesandwomen"), I'm pretty sensitive to this. I see stereotyping all over the place that I think is destructive. What I do about it is present myself, openly and honestly, as a human being and not a cutout, because I think that's one of the best ways to fight stereotype thinking. It's generally a lot more difficult to hate an individual than an objectified group with set traits. > Its funny to see right wing law and order/ gun lobby jerks like >Heston, Mel Gibson, and Schwartznegger preaching about how society is >falling apart because of perverts and subversives Hear, hear! Hi! My name is Susan, and I'm a pervert and a subversive. Who has never committed a crime or killed anyone, nor romanticized the doing thereof. Can you claim the same in all good conscience, Monsieur Heston? >like Lethal Weapon or Total Recall which glamorise violence, vengeance and >gun culture and then they have the nerve to pontificate about others moral >codes . I think that's exactly why they do it. They feel defensive because they do know that that's occurring, or at the very least, that others perceive that to be the case. So they wanna go pin it on someone else so they can feel better. I personally would rather see loving sex than a guy getting decapitated by a surfboard. Why is the former often X and the latter R or PG? Why is SEX ALWAYS BAD and a guy getting shot up by a nailgun merely harmless entertainment? Those were two examples deliberately chosen from a "Lethal Weapon" movie I was once dragged to, incidentally. >won't rent the films to anyone under 18 , many parents get these films for >their kids to watch, and I had a class of year 8 kids once who all had seen >the Texas Chainsaw Massacre, which I don't relly feel is mandatory viewing for >all 13 year olds ) I agree that this is disturbing. I remember once a friend of my SO's, giggling over the way her daughter would imitate "Buffalo Bill" from "Silence of the Lambs". Her daughter is 7. We both were a bit shocked at the notion of a seven year old watching this movie at all, let alone imitating the character, let alone the mother thinking it was all pretty funny. I asked her about it, and she seemed to be under the impression that it was all in good fun, and that since her daughter was the world's brightest child *grin* OF COURSE she understood that Buffalo Bill was the bad guy. I for one am not so sure. Anyway, I wonder if there is not a lot of this adults attributing too much discernment to the child- the adult knows that something like "Chainsaw Massacre" is way over the top and in its way, a satire, and perhaps this is SO obvious to them they don't quite realize that a child might not read it that way. >is probably the muddiest issue of all time. lets face it , we could argue this >one out for the next six months and still find >something new to say, its a biggie. On this we DEFINITELY agree, with no caveats what so ever from this end :). Love on ya, Susan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:07:30 -0500 From: David Librik Subject: Re: annoy me! woj said: >ah, but for all the wrong reasons. it's an alright song on the album and >fine in moderation, but uncle bobby turned it into a novelty encore and >beat it to a pulp. and the audience laps it up. that's what's annoying >about it. Ah, you're just saying that because you've been to a zillion shows and heard tapes of the other two zillion. :) The first time I heard RH was in a crowd of 1,000 students who knew nothing beyond "Balloon Man" and "bizarre cult artist" and "there's nothing else happening this evening so we might as well go." To see him win over this whole crowd into singing gleefully along with an obscure track from an odds-and-sods compilation was a fantastic experience for an isolated Feg Fan. The same goes for the marine-life stories and "Uncorrected Personality Traits," no matter how trite they may seem to y'all now. That treatment of "Message" made sense when each show was a fresh new unconverted crowd. I'm a bit surprised that now, when he realizes his audience is mostly die-hard fans, he keeps playing really similar sets. ("I'm Only You" again, anyone?) - - David Librik ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 17:49:37 -0500 From: Zloduska Subject: Re: Crop Circles Are Go! Hello~ I've never posted on the list before; I don't think I even qualify as a "lurker" since I haven't subscribed for long either. I'm glad I did though. Recently I revealed to a friend that "It is ALL One Big Galactic Coinkydink!!!". On a semi-relevant note, I just wanted to mention this: Yesterday I received a package in the mail from the Geraldine Fibbers, one of the best bands in the world and nearly my favorite (hey, I'm not biased!). Included with the "stuff" was a biography on the band, pretty much the standard interrogation forced by the label for promotion. Anyhow, I had to chuckle and think of Fegmaniax when I saw it was written by one 'Ned Sporin', in "EARLIPS ARE GO!" magazine. Earlips are go...heh. Fibbers fans are obscure and well-hidden. Perhaps there may be one in the woodwork of this list that would come out for me? I haven't heard them mentioned yet. thanks, ~kjs (a Feg and a FoG!- {Fan of Geraldine Fibbers}) ;-) ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V7 #266 *******************************