From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V7 #260 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Thursday, July 9 1998 Volume 07 : Number 260 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Every man and woman is a star [Stewart Russell 3295 Analyst_Programme] Re: Rowans (eerie D#-like symmetry...) [Eb ] Re: Crop Circles Are Go! [David Librik ] Re: annoying music [David Librik ] "I'm huge!" [Natalie Jacobs ] Sebadoh and good to be back ["Chaney, Dolph L" ] RE: John McLaughlin. ["Chaney, Dolph L" ] Re: "I'm a huge Triffid!" [Jon Fetter ] Re: B.A. Fegtivities [Eleanore Adams ] Re: "I'm huge!" [Bayard ] Re: "I'm a huge Triffid!" [Gary Assassin ] RE: Ordo Templar Quailientis [amadain ] Re: "I'm huge!" [Eb ] Re: annoying music [Eb ] Those Annoying Crop Circles ["JH3" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:39:12 +0100 (BST) From: Stewart Russell 3295 Analyst_Programmer Subject: Re: Every man and woman is a star >>>>> "Natalie" == Natalie Jacobs writes: Natalie> Re. Robyn's middle name: rowan, also known as mountain Natalie> ash, is considered a powerful antidote to witchcraft. Natalie> Make of that what you will. And even yet, quite a few Scottish house have rowans at the gate. I grew up in a 1937 house with two big rowan trees outside, and many and hilarious were the rowanberry fights... - -- Stewart C. Russell Analyst Programmer, Dictionary Division stewart@ref.collins.co.uk HarperCollins Publishers use Disclaimer; my $opinion; Glasgow, Scotland ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 02:55:42 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Rowans (eerie D#-like symmetry...) >>>>>> "Natalie" == Natalie Jacobs writes: > > Natalie> Re. Robyn's middle name: rowan, also known as mountain > Natalie> ash, is considered a powerful antidote to witchcraft. > Natalie> Make of that what you will. > >And even yet, quite a few Scottish house have rowans at the gate. I >grew up in a 1937 house with two big rowan trees outside, and many and >hilarious were the rowanberry fights... From the 1982 edition of the Rolling Stone Record Guide: "THE ROWANS [albums rated from one to five stars] *The Rowans *Sibling Rivalry *Jubilation Jerry Garcia called this group of Marin County wimps the California Beatles when the boys' first album was released in the early Seventies. One presumes he was tripping at the time. The most godawful hippie mindlessness since It's a Beautiful Day. -- Dave Marsh" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 06:16:01 -0500 From: David Librik Subject: Re: Crop Circles Are Go! Ben wrote: >he's never really lost the flair for the weird or intense... "Trilobite","I Am >Not Me", "As Lemons Chop", etc. all songs from his last pair of releases. >Even in the jangly guitar days of "Queen Elvis" and "Globe of Frogs" you >had stuff like "The Devil's Coachman" and "Sleeping With Your Devil Mask". Eb responded: >Hell, Celine Dion is "intense." Not really the same thing. And I don't see >any of the above songs having that positive "annoying" quality which I'm >speaking of. Being unusual isn't the same as being annoying. Being unusual >doesn't tap into our aggressive side, and get our adrenaline flowing. >There's no physical catharsis inherent to "weird" music. Although not annoying, "Sleeping With Your Devil Mask" and the track that follows it, "Unsettled", have always been two of my favorite examples of why Robyn Hitchcock, at his best, taps into my "aggressive" side, gets my adrenaline flowing, and provides physical catharsis. Of course, the degree of "edginess" it takes for a song to do that probably varies with the listener's expectations. I'd be interested to hear what you think of them, since you're the first person to nail exactly why I like them. Both those songs -- and others like "Insanely Jealous" or "Brenda's Iron Sledge" -- have always perfectly captured a certain familiar teenage emotion: a sort of furious egotism, misanthropy; a fierce intellectual/bookish "geek"'s disdain for the tawdriness of the world. Sneer and shout along with Robyn! (And then go back to burying your nose in M. R. James or Lovecraft stories.) Nowadays, of course, Hitchcock has specifically renounced rock'n'roll, so I can't get any of that anymore. He's taken up acoustic folk (sometimes rock-arranged), but not with the requisite "fuck folk!" sneer which endears Ani (& others) to people who long ago decided that Pentangle was passe. On the whole, though, I can't agree with your call for more Can Of Bees in Robyn Hitchcock. I fell in love with Hitchcock's music in the mid-80s when I realized that, in a world that seemed to surround me with angry, unpleasant noise, that there was someone very modern (and even, at times, "edgy") working in a language I knew and loved: melodic psychedelic rock. I mean -- I think it's been conclusively proven, probably some time in the 80s if not earlier, that it's possible to make real real noisy records, stuff without any melody at all, thirty-seven untuned guitars all going at once, endless tape loops, No Wave experiments that sound better on paper (in the Trouser Press guide) than on vinyl. "Annoying" / "difficult" / "uncommercial" has been pushed to its limits in many different ways, and the result is boring and no fun. Now can we hear something enjoyable? - - David Librik p.s. More on "good annoying" in the next message. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 06:36:19 -0500 From: David Librik Subject: Re: annoying music Eb wrote: >The annoyance factor in modern music has always fascinated me. I think that >many, many groups owe a sizeable chunk of their success to their "annoying" >qualities. Being annoying helps a band get under your skin, helps a band >resonate and stand out. Whether it's an annoying voice, an annoying guitar >solo, an annoying lyric or an annoying production texture. To take a few good examples you should be familiar with: Jeff Mangum's voice. (That's what makes it so much fun to sing along to NMH. "Eeach wunn a little mower thenn heee could daayre to TRRRIIIIYYYYY...") For that matter, Robyn's voice; would even his recorded stories be as much fun without that distinctive English sneer? (I now find I can't read Edward Gorey without hearing him in The Robyn Voice.) Or Syd Barrett's guitar. (Strum that chord. Over. And over. And over. Wait ... change chords!) >But as for annoying music, how about... (List deleted, but what a list!) Other than Napoleon XIV (more Dr. Demento than really annoying) and Shonen Knife/Cibo Matto (only annoying if goofiness in pop turns you off), this list of names has done me a huge favor: it's given me a whole roster of bands I now know I can avoid. :-) You've provided a public service! But you did leave off one great example of annoying music. See, I have a friend who is very into the sort of stuff you describe. We drove out to Seattle together last year (for Bumbershoot), and in the car she played me probably 1/4 of Eb's Annoying Band List. (Half Japanese I remember as particularly irritating.) But standing out among the rest is the magnificence of SEBADOH! (You're quite safe, Mr. Barlow: no matter how low the Record Industry sinks to promote "product," no one is ever going to sell you out with a song that goes "WHY DO YOU CUT OFF YOUR SLEEEEEEEEEEEEVES? WHY DO YOU CUT OFF YOUR SLEEEEEEEEEEEEVES?" over and over for what seems like forever.) I began to doubt my friend's sanity until I realized that I wasn't expected to "get into" this the way one might get into a good rock song. This is music designed to be pathetic and unbearable. Once I got into the right mood along with her, things made much more sense. I still don't understand why anyone would like it, but at least I don't think everyone who digs it is insane anymore... and now I can see that a big part of the appeal is the idea that it's pushing at the boundaries. - - David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:48:09 -0400 From: Natalie Jacobs Subject: "I'm huge!" >Speaking of voices, there is nothing irritating about Rufus Wainwright and >the annoyance factor doesn't apply to him at all. Says you. I finally got to hear some of his stuff last weekend and found his voice extremely nasal and irritating. This is coming from someone who likes Gordon Gano's voice, mind... >Natalie nicely summed up my thoughts about what happened to MST3K when >Mike stepped in--weak japing, lame bits written for sixth graders. I didn't say that. I said the host segments ain't what they used to be. But they're still pretty good - like the Ingmar Bergman joke, which was fucking hilarious. ("When you're out of slits, you're out of pier.") >..hey. Any follow up on Robyn's legs? Long enough to reach the floor, last I heard. Jonathan Demme said Robyn was fun to film "because he's got such long legs!" Is it just my imagination, or are Brits generally not into wearing shorts? I lived in England for a year and only saw one person wearing shorts, and that was because he was going to play tennis. Maybe it's the weather...? >sorry, Linden Arden stole them. Linden means lime tree, not to be confused >with Rowan, which means mountain ash. Number 23 - the Larch Strangely enough, lime trees do not bear limes. But Schubert wrote a nice song about a lime tree. I had a Robyndream last night. It started out as a "Babylon 5" episode. Captain Sheridan had called a bunch of people into a room for a meeting, but then it turned into a Robyn concert all of a sudden, except Robyn wasn't on stage, he was sitting right in front of me, chatting with everyone. He was very friendly. He had black spiky hair and wore a black T-shirt with some sort of design on it. (Too bad I can't remember the design - we could use it for the Feg shirt.) n., who brought a mullein plant into work today (a very large, fuzzy plant with a big spike of yellow flowers, that looks like a Triffid) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:58:59 -0400 From: "Chaney, Dolph L" Subject: Sebadoh and good to be back Hi kids. I'm freshly back from Brazil and over what I thought might be dengue fever but turned out to only be a voracious type of flu or something but anyway this sentence is getting quite long so let me go to the next thank you. Nice to be back in the States and online. Sebadoh. Sebadoh Sebadoh Sebadoh! The thing to keep in mind about Sebadoh is that it's like an artist's collective, with each member's work pretty clearly delineated from the others'. The most clear division imho is found on III and BUBBLE AND SCRAPE, with the lineup of Lou Barlow (sad melodic slow-ish pop), Eric Gaffney (nnnoooooooooiiiiizzzzzzzzze), and Jason Loewenstein (apprentice to each). Those are also my two favorite Sebadoh records, though I am foremost a Lou fan. BAKESALE and HARMACY are brilliant, but Gaffney left during the making of the former, and it threw the balance off. Jason's become a better writer on those two records, though, a real partner. Robyn ("I Saw Nick Drake") ---> Nick Drake <--- Sebadoh (covers "Pink Moon" on SMASH YOUR HEAD ON THE PUNK ROCK) Dolph p.s.: I have a live radio broadcast of Lou Barlow from last year, during Sebadoh's tour. tradeworthy? well, hear Lou play "Natural One" on acoustic... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:36:59 -0400 From: "Chaney, Dolph L" Subject: RE: Ordo Templar Quailientis a bit of early morning only-one-cup-of-coffee-albeit-Brazilian-in-origin-yum! quibble: Susan says "Anti-Christian, that's just fine..." Well, um, gee. Is it? Anti-Semitic, anti-Muslim, anti-Hindi, anti-Shinto, anti-Buddhist, etc. are not just fine. I am a Christian, and I'm not one of the sort that equates all religious systems, so therefore, I do not personally subscribe to any faith but Christianity. However, I am not "anti" any faith. My question is always "what DO you believe?" rather than "what DON'T you believe?" Life's too short to worry about what you don't believe. I see Susan's larger point and I'm sure she was just trying to speed past that sentence and get on with what she REALLY wanted to say. It just kinda *got* me, and I thought I'd throw this in the pot. Dolph floaters not sinkers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 98 9:29:41 EDT From: Ross Overbury Subject: Re: John McLaughlin. > > A few days ago, when I a pizza deliveryman noticed my electric bass guitar > and asked what sort of music I played. I said that it was late 60's > California psychedelic, rather like Spirit or the Electric Prunes (if > anyone who has a copy of GF has a better description, I'd really dig > hearing it.) He nodded in recognition, said I was rather young to have > heard of those bands, and suggested that I check out John McLaughlin (sp?) > Why on earth would he recommend '70s rock/jazz fusion music to you because you're a fan of '60s psychedelia? What have you heard of John M. already? I was introduced to his music in the '70s by a friend, and I'm grateful for that introduction, but not because I ended up a fan of John M. The band was Mahavishnu Orchestra, and it featured Billy Cobham and Jan Hammer. I love Cobham's "Crosswinds", and Hammer's "Oh Yeah" got lots of play on my turntable. "Crosswinds" is jazz/rock fusion with a much jazzier sound (like there's trombone, man) than Mahavishnu and "Oh Yeah" is tinged (stained?) with that disco beat. I played it for a friend who liked disco, asking why they couldn't dance to stuff like this instead. She had no ready answer, but I now think the vapidity of disco was an essential part of its attraction to the public. "It's got a good beat *and* it's real stoopid; I give it an 8." There's a connection via Cobham/Duke to Zappa, although the Cobham/Duke stuff is much less satisfying to me. As for John McLaughlin, I haven't heard much of his recent stuff, but from the bits I've read in guitar magazines he seems as self-indulgent as ever. > I've decided to do so. To avoid repeating what happened when I rushed out > to buy a Teardrop Explodes album and came home with Wilder, what albums of > his do you-all reccomend? If you must hear John with Billy and Jan, get "Birds of Fire". I'd strongly suggest you find a music store that lets you hear the discs before you buy them. It's not the Electric Prunes, not by a long stretch. - -- Ross Overbury the proggie Montreal, Quebec, Canada email: rosso@cn.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:53:04 -0400 From: "Chaney, Dolph L" Subject: RE: John McLaughlin. The Inner Mounting Flame and Birds Of Fire are both just way too great. I haven't heard any post-Cobham Mahavishnu, but this stuff is just killer. I personally prefer the compositions on the former My engineer has an album called Extrapolation, which is McLaughlin's first recording as a leader (produced by Giorgio Gomelsky, producer of the Yardbirds, who featured Clapton... who ate lunch with KEVIN BACON!!!). High on atmosphere, low on wank. guitar, saxes, bass, drums lineup. Extrapolation is available cheap ($8.33 at Music Boulevard) from Verve on CD. Dolph ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 23:48:00 +0800 From: Jon Fetter Subject: Re: "I'm a huge Triffid!" >n., who brought a mullein plant into work today (a very large, fuzzy plant >with a big spike of yellow flowers, that looks like a Triffid) Gonna make some Triffid Tea? Strangely enough, whenever I've met people who've raved about how great "The Lathe of Heaven" movie was, they would always mention the Triffids movie. Then they would make the Triffid sound. "The Day of the Triffids" is a good sci-fi book which suprisingly had little to do with the Triffids. Jon, who is cursed to never see either movie - ------------------------------------------------------------------- "They are grubby little creatures of a sea floor 530 million years old, but we greet them with awe because they are the Old Ones, and they are trying to tell us something." --Stephen Jay Gould ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 09:49:15 +0000 From: Eleanore Adams Subject: Re: B.A. Fegtivities Mark_Gloster@3com.com wrote: > I've decided to cc: the feglists in hopes that we might attract more fegs > out of the woodwork for any and all of the following events. Delete this > message now if the thought of rubbing elbows with the unwashed fegmasses > curdles your tentacles and causes fuzz to grow on your dusty bees... > > 1. LUNCH Wednesday, July 8, somewhere in the south bay. I'm thinking about > doing a brew pubbish place. I plan on bearing inconsequential gifts for > lunch participants. Faultline near Lawrence/101 OK? > > 2. Double Secret Glass Flesh 2 recording project (my house) AND Dinner + > Dan Bern Show Saturday, July 11. Please let me know if you plan on > participating. This will be a fairly laid-back day and should involve > either sushi dinner (MOBO) or mexi (EL PALOMAR) dinner downtown Santa Cruz > b4 the show. > > 3. I want to hear your feelings about hosting the next FEGPARTY. It might > serve as a great bookend to the summer with the Quail's party if it occurs > on Labor Day. Since I would like some help from y'all keeping Bayard's head > out of the bean dip (he likes those bobbing games) and other such nots, so > I'm asking about your date preferences. Also, I will need to work with the > experts (Tom, Glen) on beverage advice. I hope to be able to reward throngs > of fegs for their travels by not serving Brown Derby Light, or worse. There > will be plenty of non-alcoholic bevvies too. Sydney, is Boone's Farm v1998 > a good wine? Maybe I'll need some help with wine too. Guitars. Beaches. > Swimming Pools. Movie Stars. South Park episodes. Scary stories. Hmuhs (I > hope). Okay, not swimming pools. > > That's it fernow. Hope to see y'all soonlike. Please, if other (California) > Bay Area fegs want to always be on the bay area activities list, please > (re)mind me. I seem to have misplaced mine. > > Thanks, > > -Sharkboy I am usually a lurker, but I just wrote Karen about the joys of living in the bay area. There are at least two more Fegs around here - myself Eleanore, and my freind Luke in Santa Cruz. (I live in Emeryville, under the Bay Bridge) I was at the GAMH show, but being a lurker, did not meet any of you guys. I dragged my husband to the show and he is NOT a RH fan. I have been a fan since about 85', since high school. You guys talk about stuff that I am interested, from placentas to the Prisoner. What fun!!! Eleanore ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:56:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Bayard Subject: Re: "I'm huge!" > >Speaking of voices, there is nothing irritating about Rufus Wainwright and > >the annoyance factor doesn't apply to him at all. are you being facetious? I hesitated to say it, but at times those clips you pointed us to sounds exactly like they're being sung by that little guy in red from South Park. I don't get cable, but I have seen things on the net of him singing. I swar eb, I am not just tweaking (or roasting) your annoy-me Gene. And cartoon voice notwithstanding, those are some catchy melodies! I like Rufus, except that that's not the sort of music I like. Until now? > Says you. I finally got to hear some of his stuff last weekend and found > his voice extremely nasal and irritating. This is coming from someone who > likes Gordon Gano's voice, mind... I think Rufus is more epiglottal than nasal, myself... It's interesting. What about They Might Be Giants as a couple of annoying nasal whiners? I love those guys! > Anyone else here think Robyn is repeating himself? No =b ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:18:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Gary Assassin Subject: Re: "I'm a huge Triffid!" Antwerp! ------------------------------------ If you have a condom and sunscreen SPF 15 or greater, than it's safe to look at http://www.panix.com/~gsa/index.html On Thu, 9 Jul 1998, Jon Fetter wrote: > > >n., who brought a mullein plant into work today (a very large, fuzzy plant > >with a big spike of yellow flowers, that looks like a Triffid) > Gonna make some Triffid Tea? > Strangely enough, whenever I've met people who've raved about how > great "The Lathe of Heaven" movie was, they would always mention the > Triffids movie. Then they would make the Triffid sound. > "The Day of the Triffids" is a good sci-fi book which suprisingly > had little to do with the Triffids. > > Jon, who is cursed to never see either movie > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "They are grubby little creatures of a sea floor 530 million years old, but > we greet them with awe because they are the Old Ones, and they are trying > to tell us something." > --Stephen Jay Gould > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:26:11 -0600 From: amadain Subject: RE: Ordo Templar Quailientis >Well, um, gee. Is it? Anti-Semitic, anti-Muslim, anti-Hindi, anti-Shinto, >anti-Buddhist, etc. are not just fine. Well, no, not really. But I think you got my -general- point :). Seems to be my week for sloppy writing. What I meant was, concerning Crowley, that ok, whatever, he was anti-Christian, but why is that in and of itself a virtue, and why does that justify him knowingly going around being what I would call a false prophet? FINE was more in a tone of exasperation, actually, with people who would say anti-Christian -in and of itself- was this great revolutionary thing. So actually you and I are on a similar, if not the same, wavelength. Personally I think that if he wanted to teach spiritual enlightenment of the "godhead is in all of us" type, then why did he like being in effect - -the GOD- of his own temple so much? Seems to me that if that's what he really believed maybe he should have tried to teach his followers the real implications of such a belief, which would have left him as the head of a temple and grandiose spiritual sex-priestess-recruiting poobah RIGHT OUT. Most genuine teachers of such a philosophy (generally Eastern in nature, for those who might not be familiar with it) try very hard to avoid that very type of thing. Those that don't are handing out wooden nickels. Fake gurus, and people who knowingly lead others down a false path (which is more Crowley's thing) for -whatever reason- are a very thorny issue with me. No, I don't think it's at all funny or roguish or cute. It's rather ugly. And it involves taking advantage of the weak, the desperate, and the emotionally rudderless, which is a BIG PEEVE of mine. >I see Susan's larger point and I'm sure she was just trying to speed past >that sentence and get on with what she REALLY wanted to say. Pretty much. I just didn't bother because I thought it was obvious from the general tone. Thanks for pointing it out and giving me a chance to clarify. Love on ya, Susan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:18:26 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: "I'm huge!" Nattered: >>Speaking of voices, there is nothing irritating about Rufus Wainwright and >>the annoyance factor doesn't apply to him at all. > >Says you. I finally got to hear some of his stuff last weekend and found >his voice extremely nasal and irritating. This is coming from someone who >likes Gordon Gano's voice, mind... Very well. But your comment does nothing to contradict my contention that his appeal isn't based in "annoyance." You're only saying that you find him *negatively* annoying. Still, I am completely dumbfounded as to how anyone could react with such hostility to his voice. I wonder if perhaps you (and Bayard) are reacting more to his melodic phrasing than his actual voice -- you don't like all the sustained, drawn-out syllables. Who are The Tokens? Eb, who's "starfucking" someone very relevant in 15 minutes ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 11:18:26 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: annoying music David wrote: >To take a few good examples you should be familiar with: Jeff Mangum's >voice. (That's what makes it so much fun to sing along to NMH. "Eeach wunn >a little mower thenn heee could daayre to TRRRIIIIYYYYY...") Oh sure! Mangum's got it, big time. Not to mention those furious beeswarm guitars, and the nagging quality of his run-on-sentence phrasing. Some anti-NMH Feg (I don't remember who) once complained to me that Mangum's voice sounds like a kazoo. While I'm obviously not happy to hear Mangum being slagged, I thought that was an interesting criticism. That "kazoo" quality is precisely one of the things which I (and others, apparently) like. >For that >matter, Robyn's voice; would even his recorded stories be as much fun >without that distinctive English sneer? No, Robyn's voice doesn't have the annoying thing for me. It's too modulated -- it hardly ever cracks. You rarely hear physical strain in his singing. Very smooth. >But you did leave off one great example of annoying music. See, I have >a friend who is very into the sort of stuff you describe. We drove out >to Seattle together last year (for Bumbershoot), and in the car she played >me probably 1/4 of Eb's Annoying Band List. Heh heh heh. Is she dating anyone? ;) >But standing out among the rest is the magnificence >of SEBADOH! (You're quite safe, Mr. Barlow: no matter how low the Record >Industry sinks to promote "product," no one is ever going to sell you out with >a song that goes "WHY DO YOU CUT OFF YOUR SLEEEEEEEEEEEEVES? WHY DO YOU >CUT OFF YOUR SLEEEEEEEEEEEEVES?" over and over for what seems like forever.) Well, as Dolph said, Sebadoh has a radically diverse catalog of music -- sure, some of it has the annoying thing happening (particularly the Eric Gaffney tracks), but a lot of it doesn't. And I would say that Sebadoh's success is NOT due to being "annoying," but in spite of it. I mean, the song that really put Sebadoh on the map, "Soul and Fire," couldn't *possibly* be more beautiful. Sheer perfection! If not, how could they so accurately recreate the live excitement of: Porky Pig, Ed Sullivan, Edward G. Robinson, Bob Dylan, Louis Armstrong, George Jessel, Johnny Mathis, Anthony Newley, The Beach Boys, The Four Seasons, The Rolling Stones, and...The Tokens! Eb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:42:25 -0500 From: "JH3" Subject: Those Annoying Crop Circles This is obviously the *last* discussion I should ever involve myself in, but... >...this is exactly my point -- many music fans DO like to listen to >things that annoy them (including me). That's part of rock 'n' roll. The >irritation, the scratching of an itch, the agitation -- rock 'n' roll >unsettles you, puts you on edge. That's a central component of its appeal. Uh, this is just a question of semantics, isn't it? It seems like Eb is using the word "annoying" when he should be using words like "jarring" or "discordant" or maybe even just "loud". Unsettling you and putting you on edge, which aren't necessarily bad, aren't the same as annoying you, which is. Like Eddie said, Whitney Houston annoys me, so I don't listen to Whitney Houston. But I suspect he's using this word for a reason, maybe just to perk up the conversation. (I can't imagine it's because he can't come up with a better word.) >Rock 'n' roll fans don't want to listen to music that >relaxes and sedates them. Generally speaking no, though it depends on their mood at the time, I suppose. The problem is, by misusing the word "annoying" to describe the type of music they *do* want to listen to implies that Eb isn't a rock 'n' roll fan, which we know is not the case. >either you have the ANNOY-ME chromosome, or you don't. This might explain quite a bit... >It's easy to think of other groups whose vocalists lend the sound >an "annoying" quality which provides the hook. Think Perry Farrell. Think >Axl Rose. Think Frank Black. Think Ozzy Osborne. Jello Biafra. Mark E. >Smith. John Lydon. Or maybe the all-time best example, Robert Plant. "Distinctive", "unusual" perhaps, maybe even "unique" in some cases, but not "annoying", at least not to their fans. Only to their detractors. >And of course, the annoyance factor doesn't apply just to voices. I mean, >look at hardcore punk, for one thing. That's about nothing but trying to be >"good-annoying." An insistent guitar lick, a bludgeoning beat, vicious >lyrics, whatever. This is exactly what I mean - is there really such a thing as "good-annoying"? I don't think so. It's good because it's annoying people you don't like. It's not annoying you. Certainly when I myself am doing my best to be annoying, which is pretty much all the time, I'd hardly want the people I'm trying to annoy to think I was doing a good thing. Otherwise why would I do it? >Of course, for further illustration of the difference between good-annoying >and bad-annoying, see the Grateful Dead. Y'see, to me and many other anti-Dead types, the Dead's *music* isn't particularly annoying, just kind of sleep-inducing. What most of us find annoying about them (forgive me, Ben) is that there's this whole subculture built up around them and an almost religious reverence for them that they don't seem to deserve (at least not any more than dozens of other artists - Robyn H, for example). And while the reverence might really be based on appreciation of their music, it's difficult for those of us looking at it from the outside - i.e., people who don't like their music - to believe that, because the enormous cultural aspect of it gives the impression that their fans are just in it to be part of the community. (Otherwise, why would they all dress up like that?) Flame away. John H. Hedges PS. Last week I was flipping channels, and came across this show on The Discovery Channel called "What Sex Am I?"... at almost that exact moment the announcer says, "This is the domain of the 'she-male' - women from the waist up, man from the waist down"... and there they all were, reconciling their parents to them by becoming both at once. ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V7 #260 *******************************