From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V7 #250 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Saturday, July 4 1998 Volume 07 : Number 250 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Rattling on 1, RH Content 0 [fred is ted ] Re: more gary, etc. [nicastr@idt.net (Ben)] Re: folkie stuff,revelling in evil? [MARKEEFE@aol.com] Re: folkie stuff,revelling in evil? [amadain ] from randi - re: capacity for evil - 44% RH content [Tim Fuller ] Re: much stuff ["Wookie Conscious" ] annoying music ["Wookie Conscious" ] MST3K [dwdudic@erols.com (David W. Dudich)] Re: tell me about your... [M R Godwin ] Re: annoying music [Capuchin ] Re: shadowy [amadain ] Re: from randi - re: capacity for evil - 44% RH content [amadain Subject: Rattling on 1, RH Content 0 - ---Aaron Mandel wrote: > > one of my flatmates has a habit of watching "Talk Soup", a daily summary of things that happened on talk shows that day. the smug announcer invites > viewers to laugh at the poor slobs that watch this stuff "for real" and> yet (a) there you are on the couch watching talk shows, albeit in> bite-size chunks and (b) most of his derision is actually spent on the > guests, who like as not are getting pooed on for being different. drives me crazy. On the nosey. Greg Kinnear--funny Jim Henson--*not* funny. > > (i don't like sounding like i think i'm british, but "apartmentmate" is> long and clunky, and "roommate" and "housemate" are inaccurate. any suggestions would be welcome.) Roommate is the accepted generic term. Worry instead about global warming :). I suspect you really ARE British! Buzz off limey, or we'll dump ya back in the Haaabuh just like in 1773. Where's my warpaint? Time to get buzzed and watch the explosions down in the park! Live free or die, Amerifegs! Columbus, one day ahead of the rest of the US of A. Ted "yeah, we get high on music." Kim Deal _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 18:48:07 -0500 From: nicastr@idt.net (Ben) Subject: Re: more gary, etc. >(He also looks just like Dave Kendall, who I'm sure >most of us remember introing Robyn videos with that great accent...:-)) > -luther Not me! :) I am puzzled whenever I hear Balloon Man refered to as Robyn's "hit".... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 21:09:37 EDT From: MARKEEFE@aol.com Subject: Re: folkie stuff,revelling in evil? In a message dated 98-07-03 12:20:25 EDT, you write: << being Michael Caine is different from being the character he created in "Dressed to Kill". I was really referring to the former. >> Wow, and I thought I was the only person who referred to being Michael Caine! I'm always sayin' stuff like, "Listening to Bach is like being Michael Caine" or "Eating a banana is like being Michael Caine." Whaddya know! Welcome to the Michael Caine club, Susan! ;-) - ------Michael K., who's going to have to go home and listen to that Madness song now. "Hello, my name is Michael Caine." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 20:48:57 -0600 From: amadain Subject: Re: folkie stuff,revelling in evil? >In a message dated 98-07-03 12:20:25 EDT, you write: > ><< being Michael Caine is different > from being the character he created in "Dressed to Kill". I was really > referring to the former. >> > > Wow, and I thought I was the only person who referred to being Michael >Caine! Ok alright, you got me on ten counts of sloppy usage :). I trust everyone knew what I MEANT :). Love on ya, Susan not a Michael Caine, but I play one on TV ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 00:41:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Fuller Subject: from randi - re: capacity for evil - 44% RH content > Well again, I agree with susan when she said: > Finding the limit of one's capacity for evil is an important > aspect of imagining human limits in general > I have more sympathy for Orson Scott Card than I would for a writer > who refuses to "go there," because I find that artistically and humanly > timid. I think that the only way to be a good writer is to explore one's dark side. Again, I spoke to Robyn about this once upon a time, and he said he had to explore the feelings within himself, as opposed to being afraid of them. One day, when I grow up, I hope to be a published writer. Right now, as some of you know, I am working on a book about Crohn's and Colitis {Inflammatory Bowel Disease} for teens. But first I had to accept the fact that I was ill, and the destructive tendencies it could bring out of me - especially when there is too much pain - and I used to wish I was dead - now I look at it as "choosing to be alive." I don't know if Timothy Findley is well know outside Canada - he wrote "The Wars," "Headhunter," "Famous Last Words," "Last Of The Crazy People" - I'm not sure which of his many books would ring familiar to you - but he had similar comments to Susan's. I was reading at a 'poetry reading' a couple of years ago, and afterward Mr. Findley came up to me - I almost passed out - he is like a g-d to me...mostly because of the honesty of his writing. So he comes up to me. and says "I know your pain, and if I were DoubleDay {a publisher here in Canada} I'd sign you right this minute." I almost passed out - but the point of the story is I was reading what might have been thought of as S&M poetry, but I was *really* talking about the internal struggle between myself and my Crohn's {who is male}. Mr. Findley expressed that you have to totally explore the dark side before you can write anything good. He is someone who explored the 'dark side' by being in and out of psychiatric wards, and drinking for long periods of time. That is not my idea of explore one's evil side, I do it clean and sober, but my writing has only improved since I took Mr. Findley's words to heart and explored some stuff in me I just wanted to hide inside forever. No substance abuse to do it, just hard determination, and the knowledge that if I delved deep inside, Mr. Findley said he would edit my book for me. Well, in a way, for me, that's a drug. If Robyn said "practise your guitar and we'll jam next time I'm in Toronto," I suppose that would be equal incentive ;} But I have respect for authours like Timothy Findley and J.G. Ballard because I know the struggles they went through - and thus the honesty of their writing. I know how scary it is to explore the full reality of one's brain - I just don't think one needs drugs or alcohol to do it - but again - could just be my personality. And it could be the reason I find some of the songs on "Moss Elixir" the most honest and personal Robyn has ever recorded...it kills me every time I hear the last song on that album... He's had aspects of honesty in his lyrics ever since he met Cynthia and recorded "Eye." Not everything - don't scream those of you who hate the A&M years - but if you ignore the production - "she doesn't exist" and "earthly paradise" - "autumn sea" - "the yip song," "railway shoes," and "then you're dust." And it always freaks me out when Robyn sings "You and Oblivion" - especially the way he looks {live} when he sings "just like the death train got my pa." The way he talks about Maisie one day in her hi-chair, the next driving a sports car, I find that to be amazingly honesty...and it stimulates me artistically too. I'd better stop right here ;} fading back into yesterday before tomorrow comes, Randi *what scares you most will set you free* - Robyn Hitchcock *There are also quite a few people who I would like to kill or at least injure, upset, or demoralise in some way. You know who you are - no doubt the feeling's mutual* - Robyn H. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Jul 1998 23:02:21 -0700 From: "J. Katherine Rossner" Subject: shadowy >From: dlang >Perhaps I am being obtuse, but isn't this what serial killers >do,revelling in their capacity to do evil and pushing the boundaries all >the time ? Or are you just speaking theoretically?Is it ok to know your >capacity for evil by reading about it , or imagining it ? because in >some people even that may lead to an dangerous obsession . Really, the >only advantage i could think of knowing ones capacity for evil would >be so you could avoid indulging in that capacity. Mostly I agree...but I did want to clarify that I don't think Card is a (real or even potential) serial killer. But I do find a *prurience* in his work--that's what I was trying to get at with the hound-sniffing-at-shit image. "Revelling" would almost imply more wholesomeness than I find in this voyeurism of depravity. I read Card, and--despite the fact that he does construct prose quite well--end up feeling the same sort of covered-with-muck that I do when I can't resist reading the National Enquirer at the check-out stand. >From: amadain >This may reflect a different perception of human nature on your part, as >well. I personally believe that everyone has some evil, some selfishness, >some weakness, some ugliness in them. It is far better to try and deal with >it and understand it, and know where it comes from and what it is when you >see it, than it is to just blindly act out. Yes, I'm going to agree with this side of the argument too--I'm all in favor of recognizing and dealing with one's shadow side! But, Susan, do you see the difference between that (on the one hand) and (on the other) sniffing around and saying "eww, gross, lookatitlookatitlookatit" and at the same time "but *we're* the good guys, so we're just going to point self-righteous fingers at it"? I see the latter as precisely the opposite of dealing with one's own stuff... Katherine Greg Greenway, MUSSOLINI'S HEAD (not as good as SINGING FOR THE LANDLORD, alas) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 01:26:34 -0500 From: "Wookie Conscious" Subject: Re: much stuff new person lorelei asked: > Can any of y'all recommend anything else for me to be obsessed with? > you should definately become obsessed with the residents. - --shane ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 02:28:24 -0500 From: "Wookie Conscious" Subject: annoying music sorry to post twice when one would have handled it, but mentioning the residents reminded me of something... i have come to the conclusion that i really enjoy listening to annoying music and i enjoy making the lives of people i don't like or people i'm angry with listen to annoying music too. actually, i don't find the music annoying at all. here's some examples: the residents ween severed heads all my moog stuff tom waits (doesn't seem fair to me) (the man's a genius) philip glass (my wife hates him anyway) harry partch (even i find this annoying) captain beefheart zappa (some anyway) tall dwarfs einsturzende neubauten (or however you spell that) negativland throbbing gristle (chris and cosey, etc) aphex twin (wife really hates him) eugene chadbourne snow makes me sad ok, that's long enough. i've forgotten some obvious ones i'm sure. i know these are all 'annoying' for different reasons, but i'm wondering if any of you could recommend anywhere else i should look. does this even make sense? pretty annoying in his own way, shane ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 15:39:36 GMT From: dwdudic@erols.com (David W. Dudich) Subject: MST3K On Fri, 3 Jul 1998 01:17:03 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: >EVE Ems.; Bless your heart for mentioning "Manos, the Hands of Fate." >Best MST3K *ever*. Honest to god, Robyn stole the dinky horn riff >that constitutes/plagues the incidental music for "Manos" and used it >on "It Sounds Great When You're Dead." >Joel Hodgson--*funny* >Mike Nelson--*not* funny (as host) Joel was a lot better, wasn't he? Mike has moments, but NONE as funny as Joel. He had a dark sarcasm...anyone know what he has done since? Btw- other MST3K highlights- "here comes the circus". -luther P.S. I didn't think I would ever see the Fegmaniax list looking like the Gary Numan list! :-) Any of you Numanites ever hear his 1991 single, "My world Storm" off the album 'Outland'? Pretty good song... Definately NOT robyn-esqe, though! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 20:11:26 +0100 (BST) From: M R Godwin Subject: Re: tell me about your... Just catching up on a few stitches here and there: On writing by the mad, bad and dangerous to know: I think the Orwell essay on Swift gives a good perspective. He argues that by 'normal' standards, Swift is misanthropic and unhinged. But we all have moods where we feel that Swift is right, and he expresses those moods so well that we enjoy reading him. On drugs: the important thing about drugs is that they change the artist's output. Any fule kno that "From Me To You" is produced on different fuel from "I'm only sleeping". The question is whether the fuel is being used creatively or just for wasting time. And whether the artist controls the fuel or the fuel controls the artist. On the Knights Templar: I'm sure they weren't druids, but they certainly weren't MoR churchgoers. Didn't the King of France convict them of witchcraft? Or was he just trying to get his hands on their assets? To my mind, all those military monks are a bit sinister. - - Mike Godwin PS Look what happened to the Knights of the Teutonic Order in Alexander Nevsky... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 15:12:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: annoying music On Sat, 4 Jul 1998, Wookie Conscious wrote: > i have come to the conclusion that i really enjoy listening to > annoying music and i enjoy making the lives of people i don't like or > people i'm angry with listen to annoying music too. actually, i don't > find the music annoying at all. here's some examples: [snipped list of somewhat grating musicians] > ok, that's long enough. i've forgotten some obvious ones i'm sure. i > know these are all 'annoying' for different reasons, but i'm > wondering if any of you could recommend anywhere else i should look. > does this even make sense? While I question your motives and find your goal somewhat morally objectionable, I think I understand what you're talking about. Annoying music that is good for listening. Something that grates on you so much, but you really learn to dig it. I've mentioned him on list before, brought it over to Michael K.'s for listening once (oh yeah, he was annoyed) and even sang bits of it in the car on the way to SF with eddie and Karen (oh yeah, they begged me to stop). You must buy a copy of Brian Dewan Tells The Story. He's great. He has a really creepy voice. He plays a loud electric zither. His songs scare you to death. He's harsh and grating at times, and wonderfully calming at others. The beast of it is that no matter how painful the music, his melodies and lyrics will keep you humming them all day. I love him to death. He opened once for They Might Be Giants here in Portland and I thought there was going to be a riot. Half the audience loved him and dug the songs fully while the other half was about to jump on the stage and beat him until he stopped. Damn, I think I'm going to listen right now. Je. ________________________________________________________ J A Brelin Capuchin ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 17:32:06 -0600 From: amadain Subject: Re: shadowy >But, Susan, do you see the difference between that (on the one hand) and >(on the other) sniffing around and saying "eww, gross, >lookatitlookatitlookatit" and at the same time "but *we're* the good guys, >so we're just going to point self-righteous fingers at it"? I see the >latter as precisely the opposite of dealing with one's own stuff... At that point I'd gotten quite far away from the original post (wherein I incidentally said that I'd never -read- Orson Scott Card and didn't know jack about him) and was making more general arguments. In that first post of yours concerning him, I was more taking off from something your description reminded me of than commenting specifically on him or what you had written about him- this whole evil argument thingie kinda launched from there. I think I have been saying all along that I wasn't a big fan of "merely rubbernecking" or of the attitude of "I'm attracted to that but that attraction scares me, so I'm going to waggle my finger at it a lot as I give you lurid descriptions". The former attitude is IMO anyway, somewhat natural and not reprehensible really unless you make a big habit of like, say, catching "COPS" whenever it's on. The latter attitude is very twisted. IMO it's one of the reasons that right-thinking persons dislike the ethos of daytime talk shows. Love on ya, Susan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 17:59:43 -0600 From: amadain Subject: Re: from randi - re: capacity for evil - 44% RH content >I think that the only way to be a good writer is to explore one's dark side. > >Again, I spoke to Robyn about this once upon a time, and he said he had >to explore the feelings within himself, as opposed to being afraid of them. And that he does. Although I think you may not be -entirely- right about one thing. Although I do agree that a definite change came about somewhere around the time of "Eye", which is painful in its honesty, I would argue that GD is this kind of darkside exploration too. I always thought that one reason RH might have hated it, aside from the making of it being a horrible memory, is that it really seems to dredge up some inner ugly that he doesn't necessarily want to revisit. "St. Petersburg" seems to me to be one of the most revealing songs he's ever written. >pain - and I used to wish I was dead - now I look at it as "choosing to >be alive." I think you are an extraordinarily brave person. Making this choice says a lot about you, of which all is good :). >I don't know if Timothy Findley is well know outside Canada - he wrote >"The Wars," "Headhunter," "Famous Last Words," "Last Of The Crazy People" - Has anyone else here read these? Can you tell me more about them (possibly in private offlist mail if you're not sure the list would be interested) and who publishes them in the US, availability, &c.? He sounds like my kind of writer. >I almost passed out - but the point of the story is I was reading what >might have been thought of as S&M poetry, but I was *really* talking >about the internal struggle between myself and my Crohn's {who is male}. Interesting that you would personify your disease, and choose the male gender. I knew someone once who had had some very invasive surgery and carried a large and very painful incision around for weeks afterwards. She used to call her incision "I-Man", e.g., "my I-man is being extremely nasty today" or "my I-man is fighting with me". Anyway, I also find it really interesting and insightful that you would comment that it "might have been thought of S/M poetry". Since for me S/M has a lot to do with coming to grips with power relations as well as coming to grips with suffering. I'm thinking that you were probably writing about both. >I know how scary it is to explore the full reality of one's brain - I just >don't think one needs drugs or alcohol to do it - but again - could just >be my personality. Er, this depends. Personally for me, speaking only for me, that isn't what I was doing with alcohol. I was actually trying to blot pain -out-. Also trying to make the paranoid introvert and the communication hungry attention slut inside of me balance out and get along. Also trying to slacken the strings of a personality so highly strung that I jump at the drop of a pin. Lots of things. But it was very very -passive-. And not in the end especially effective, since nothing was getting resolved that way. It was for sure not an active exploration of anything, and maybe for some people it is a conscious exploratory choice, but not me. Surprisingly when I began to come to grips with my S/M orientation, that was one of the key steps on my personal road to wellness. And that -is- a way of exploring the edges of the map, as well as of catharsis, of finding my own inner strength, of claiming experiences for my own. An active way. The things I learn I can keep and use, and for sure the effort required is much greater, but then, the reward is much greater than a splitting headache and the vague feeling I did something really dumb. Love on ya, Susan ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V7 #250 *******************************