From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V7 #193 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Tuesday, May 19 1998 Volume 07 : Number 193 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: sinatra [Tom Clark ] Why Rutles second album is different (no RH content) [AMS5 ] Sonic Youth [donald andrew snyder ] Re: James' apt Sinatra statement [KarmaFuzzz ] Re: Why Rutles second album is different (no RH content) [Eb ] Re: James' apt Sinatra statement [Aaron Mandel ] Re: James' apt Sinatra statement [sdodge@midway.uchicago.edu (amadain)] Re: Skoolz for Skumbagz [Viccicraig ] Re: James' apt Sinatra statement [Viccicraig ] Re: James' apt Sinatra statement [Sean Hennessey ] Re: James' apt Sinatra statement [Sean Hennessey ] James' apt Sinatra statement [Ross Overbury ] soul and head [dwdudic@erols.com (David W. Dudich)] good old floyd [dwdudic@erols.com (David W. Dudich)] Re: James' apt Sinatra statement [Alfred Masciocchi ] hurt yourselves (100% metal machine music content) [dwdudic@erols.com (Da] Re: soul and head (RH meets RT) [nicastr@idt.net (Ben)] Re: James' apt Sinatra statement [Ethyl Ketone ] Re: Various [Ethyl Ketone ] Re: hurt yourselves (100% metal machine music content) [Eb ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 May 98 13:25:01 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: Re: sinatra On 5/18/98 1:36 PM, Russ Reynolds wrote: >ben opined: >>I think most people on the list don't care about the death of Frank Sinatra >>because the guy was a scumbag. > >I like scumbags. I'd venture to say that scumbags make up a sizeable chunk >of my record collection. I'm thinking about becoming a scumbag myself >someday. Is there a trade school maybe? It's called the mainstream music industry, which is why I'm surprised you're not a scumbag. I guess you just need to work harder... - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:52:15 EDT From: AMS5 Subject: Why Rutles second album is different (no RH content) I read an interview recently with Neil Innes where he talked about the financial nightmare of the first Rutles album. Innes said that the songs on the first album were different enough to avoid litigation (I'm not an attorney, so I'll take his word for it). Although it was very very clear which Beatles songs inspired which Rutles songs, Innes altered chords and tweaked everything to make a set of songs that sounded like Bizzaro Beatles from an alternate universe. The Beatles and Apple were not amused. They THREATENED legal action. Fearing that a defense would be prohibitive (even though it probably eventually could be succesful), Innes, his publishers, and the record company gave in to the 800-lb Apple Gorilla. So the Beatles got an enormous stake in the publishing from the original Rutles songs (I believe it was more than half). As a result, Innes made almost no money from the Rutles. When Archology came out, Innes didn't want to make the same mistake again. So the batch of songs on the second album are suggestive of broader Beatlesque styles instead of specific Beatle songs. No lawsuits, no threats of lawsuits, no splitting the publishing. Although I enjoy the second Rutles album, it's not as enjoyable as the first. Alex ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:27:15 -0500 (CDT) From: donald andrew snyder Subject: Sonic Youth On Mon, 18 May 1998, JH3 wrote: > n.p. new Sonic Youth CD - quite strikingly good, I must say Saw them this weekend and they played almost all new stuff. I wasn't the least bit disappointed (though I kept waiting for Teenage Riot). The songs seemed pretty good, and they rocked despite being 40somethings. Not too noisy either -- even when Kim joined the others on guitar. - -Andy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 18:45:44 EDT From: KarmaFuzzz Subject: Re: James' apt Sinatra statement In a message dated 98-05-18 11:48:30 EDT, suggs@tiac.net writes: > Sorry to get on it like that, but I heard more laments for singers of > minor-cult punk bands (which are a tragedy, yes) on this list. well, dying at 27 or 39 or 50 or maybe even 60 is more tragic than 82 merely because it means that there could have been more. Sinatra was completed. > And keep in mind, the man have hated rock 'n roll, but he said that the > Beatles' Something was one of the most beautiful songs he'd ever heard... he always said it was his favorite Lennon/McCartney compostion ;) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 16:05:21 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Why Rutles second album is different (no RH content) >Innes said that the songs on the first album were different enough to avoid >litigation (I'm not an attorney, so I'll take his word for it). Although it >was very very clear which Beatles songs inspired which Rutles songs, Innes >altered chords and tweaked everything to make a set of songs that sounded like >Bizzaro Beatles from an alternate universe. > >The Beatles and Apple were not amused. They THREATENED legal action. Fearing >that a defense would be prohibitive (even though it probably eventually could >be succesful), Innes, his publishers, and the record company gave in to the >800-lb Apple Gorilla. So the Beatles got an enormous stake in the publishing >from the original Rutles songs (I believe it was more than half). As a >result, Innes made almost no money from the Rutles. I didn't know this. It kinda surprises me, considering that George Harrison makes such a good-natured cameo in the Rutles film. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 98 16:46:00 -0800 From: Russ Reynolds Subject: Re: Why Rutles second album is different (no RH content) ======== Original Message ======== >Innes said that the songs on the first album were different enough to avoid >litigation (I'm not an attorney, so I'll take his word for it). Although it >was very very clear which Beatles songs inspired which Rutles songs, Innes >altered chords and tweaked everything to make a set of songs that sounded like >Bizzaro Beatles from an alternate universe. > >The Beatles and Apple were not amused. They THREATENED legal action. Fearing >that a defense would be prohibitive (even though it probably eventually could >be succesful), Innes, his publishers, and the record company gave in to the >800-lb Apple Gorilla. So the Beatles got an enormous stake in the publishing >from the original Rutles songs (I believe it was more than half). As a >result, Innes made almost no money from the Rutles. I didn't know this. It kinda surprises me, considering that George Harrison makes such a good-natured cameo in the Rutles film. Eb ======== Fwd by: Russ Reynolds ======== George also played a major role as a consultant for the film, which is one of the reasons the visuals were so perfectly recreated. However, at the time there were three other Beatles and law suits were popping up everywhere between them (Stig even sued himself accidentally). I find it hard to believe that ANY of the beatles were not amused. The people who controlled their money undoubtedly had sticks up their butts, though. - -rr ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:50:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Sean Hennessey Subject: Re: James' apt Sinatra statement On Mon, 18 May 1998, KarmaFuzzz wrote: > In a message dated 98-05-18 11:48:30 EDT, suggs@tiac.net writes: > > > Sorry to get on it like that, but I heard more laments for singers of > > minor-cult punk bands (which are a tragedy, yes) on this list. > > well, dying at 27 or 39 or 50 or maybe even 60 is more tragic than 82 merely > because it means that there could have been more. Sinatra was completed. Yes, that's true, but the loss of a cultural icon, and like him or loathe him, Sinatra was a cultural icon, is always a sad thing. He meant a lot to millions (me being one of them, and I'm a young-un, so it's not *completely* generational). In the end I just think it's a thing about respect rather than necessarily liking him. > > And keep in mind, the man have hated rock 'n roll, but he said that the > > Beatles' Something was one of the most beautiful songs he'd ever heard... > > he always said it was his favorite Lennon/McCartney compostion ;) Well, accurate he wasn't! :) At least he credited for something! And for something he blantantly knew sod all about (or refused to), it's an easy mistake! (I can hear my 12 year old sister saying George Who? in the back of my head, not that someone of her age and his should be compared!:). In the end, I still think it's sad that someone who meant a lot to a lot over *generations* gets ignored because of a shite ending to a admitedly brilliant show. tara - Sean ******************************************************************************* Sean Hennessey, President of Boston Reds, http://members.tripod.com/~boston_reds/red_army.html Member and co-admin of the Red Devils list: red-devils@pipeline.com e-mail: suggs@tiac.net or giggs@tiac.net ICQ: 9288628 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:07:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: James' apt Sinatra statement On Mon, 18 May 1998, Sean Hennessey wrote: > I thought I was the only one who noticed this. Fan or no, a person who > has changed more lives that just about any pop singer you can name has > passed, and he's been over shadowed by a f*cking telly show?!? Hang on, we're now obligated to give respect to artists based on how many OTHER people like them? I hated Sinatra's music and, from what I hear, he was a venal, petty, violent man. Among the things I cared more about this weekend than his death: the boring Seinfeld finale, the intriguing X-Files finale, a library book sale, a party I went to, some friends I talked to (who aren't dead) and making sure my cat got fed. I don't will that everyone else do so, but I stand by my right to have never cared about Sinatra. aaron ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:03:35 -0500 From: sdodge@midway.uchicago.edu (amadain) Subject: Re: James' apt Sinatra statement >Yes, that's true, but the loss of a cultural icon, and like him or loathe >him, Sinatra was a cultural icon, is always a sad thing. Well said. That's actually what I was -about- to write, but you beat me to it. It's a bit like the death of Andy Warhol, in the sense that this was the death of a symbol, and quite a lot of people might think -that's- worthy of comment whether or not they were fans or thought highly of that individual as a human being. As for Sinatra the artist (leaving the human being aside), I actually think in general Sinatra was a better actor than singer, but that is probably a minority opinion. I'm not really so much a fan of Sinatra the singer but I am a big fan of Sinatra the actor. If you've ever seen "The Man With The Golden Arm" or "The Manchurian Candidate" you know some of what I'm talking about. He was a believable dramatic actor and he also had really good comic timing. I get a huge kick out of the Rat Pack flicks. "Robin and The Seven Hoods" is hysterical. And "Guys and Dolls" is still one of my favorite movies despite the fact that neither Brando nor Sinatra had sterling character, 'k? :) Love on ya, Susan yeah, so I agree this is more important than Seinfeld :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 21:17:19 EDT From: Viccicraig Subject: Re: Skoolz for Skumbagz In a message dated 98-05-18 16:27:37 EDT, jh3@alternatech.net writes: >>I'm thinking about becoming a scumbag myself >>someday. Is there a trade school maybe? > >I think Microsoft runs one, but it's supposed to be mostly for their >marketing people... > >-JH3 > >n.p. new Sonic Youth CD - quite strikingly good, I must say > > actually you are mistaken, its AOL who run the scumbag school, i believe they have openings.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 21:16:17 EDT From: Viccicraig Subject: Re: James' apt Sinatra statement In a message dated 98-05-18 15:15:42 EDT, nicastr@idt.net writes: >>I thought I was the only one who noticed this. Fan or no, a person who >>has changed more lives that just about any pop singer you can name has >>passed, and he's been over shadowed by a f*cking telly show?!? And a >>shite one at that (I loved the series, mind). Sinatra has a body of work >>that's absolutely amazing, and in one thing he's lucky it's that he'll be >>remembered for that. He was a great man (if often not a always a good >>one, *if* you believe the rumours), and I think it's appaling that ......etc To be honest i would have to agree with whomever posted about Bing Crosby vs Frank Sinatra....I dont like Sinatra, i am more the ella fitzgerald sorta gal....i am sorry for all who lost him who care deeply about him, but it isnt enough to make me manufactuer a desire or need for him in my life, where before he did not exist... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 21:49:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Sean Hennessey Subject: Re: James' apt Sinatra statement Hallo all, Viccicraig wrote, > To be honest i would have to agree with whomever posted about Bing Crosby vs > Frank Sinatra....I dont like Sinatra, i am more the ella fitzgerald sorta > gal....i am sorry for all who lost him who care deeply about him, but it isnt > enough to make me manufactuer a desire or need for him in my life, where > before he did not exist... It's a fair point, all I was saying is that it's sad that a telly show was more important that Sinatra's death. I can respect not liking him, but the death of a person (and I'd guess I'd have to say any person, cultural icon aside), is always a sad thing. But you hit the nail on the head by saying that you're sorry for all the people who cared deeply about him. *That is* what makes it importnat, just as the death of Elvis (someone else brought this up) or Kurt Cobain (I don't give a toss about Elvis, asides from the early days where he and Scotty Moore did ground-breaking stuff (even if mostof it was stolen, Moore himself re-defined guitar), and I cried when Cobain died). I don't mourn for the loss of Sinatra - he had had a full life, but I am sad, because I do love much of what he gave us, and I empathise with those who *really* feel his loss. tara - sean ******************************************************************************* Sean Hennessey, President of Boston Reds, http://members.tripod.com/~boston_reds/red_army.html Member and co-admin of the Red Devils list: red-devils@pipeline.com e-mail: suggs@tiac.net or giggs@tiac.net ICQ: 9288628 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 21:55:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Sean Hennessey Subject: Re: James' apt Sinatra statement On Mon, 18 May 1998, Aaron Mandel wrote: > Hang on, we're now obligated to give respect to artists based on how many > OTHER people like them? I hated Sinatra's music and, from what I hear, he > was a venal, petty, violent man. Among the things I cared more about this > weekend than his death: the boring Seinfeld finale, the intriguing X-Files > finale, a library book sale, a party I went to, some friends I talked to > (who aren't dead) and making sure my cat got fed. I don't will that > everyone else do so, but I stand by my right to have never cared about > Sinatra. Fine for you. I don't ask you to respect or like him, but respecting other people's feelings about the passing of an artist isn't too much to expect, is it? Whether you care or not means sod all, because he was an icon. End of story. I don't like many of the now dead musicians and artists that have been mentioned on this list, but I do try to empathise with their fans, that's all. A little respect for the other people isn't much to ask. Beyond that, you can dance on the ashes of whatever albums of his you can find for all I care. Does little to dimish the fact that many of us were hurt when he died. tara -Sean ******************************************************************************* Sean Hennessey, President of Boston Reds, http://members.tripod.com/~boston_reds/red_army.html Member and co-admin of the Red Devils list: red-devils@pipeline.com e-mail: suggs@tiac.net or giggs@tiac.net ICQ: 9288628 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 98 22:14:33 EDT From: Ross Overbury Subject: James' apt Sinatra statement I hope you're happy now, James. I'll be praying for the health of Meatloaf tonight. - -- Ross Overbury Montreal, Quebec, Canada email: rosso@cn.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 02:32:28 GMT From: dwdudic@erols.com (David W. Dudich) Subject: soul and head Those comments from Robyn were great. Actually, anything from the Shambala Press is really good, if you are into spiritual (especially Buddhist) teachings. > >PS - am I the only one who thinks it's odd that when a message comes in >saying that Sinatra died and the final episode of Seinfeld sucked, 99% of >the replies were about Seinfeld? It's a show - the actors will go on to >other things, and y7ou'll get to see more of their work. But ol' blue eyes >is gone for good. I think that's more worthy of comment, and hell, I wasn't >even a fan! It says a LOT about our culture, don't it? Besides, if there is any show to cry about losing, it is Murphy Brown, which just ended a half hour ago after 245 episodes- 10 years. anyway, on to RObyn: Shall we call a feggathering at the Rams Head? For those who have never been there, it is a WONDERFUL place. It is not a dive at all! just the contrary! And plus, Richard Thompson has played their too, so it MUST be a good venue! :-) -luther ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 02:37:21 GMT From: dwdudic@erols.com (David W. Dudich) Subject: good old floyd On Mon, 18 May 1998 16:28:27 -0400 (EDT), you wrote: >just waiting for it to be official. we knew Seinfeld was leaving the air, but >we didn't know the last chapter yet, and obviously a lot of people were >startled/upset by it (personally, i think it was the perfect idea, but the >script could have used another rewrite; series finales are almost always >somewhat mediocre anyways; it's just the nature of the beast). agree- great idea, VERY poor execution. Anybody here ever hear of a New York CBGB's band called Suicide? I have been trying to get a tape of them. Also, since there seems to be a large early Floyd contingent on the list (gee, I wonder why :-) ), I was wondering of anybody, in their collections, had a radio broadcast from 1970, I think, from the 'Meddle' tour. It had on it "Embryo" (done electric), "Echos", in all its 20 minutes of glory, "If", "careful with that AXE" and other goodies. I lost my copy in college years ago, but have really been missing it as of late. In trade, I have some robyn/RT (radio broadcasts and board tapes, mostly) I can trade. -luther ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:34:46 -0500 From: Alfred Masciocchi Subject: Re: James' apt Sinatra statement Aaron Mandel wrote: > > On Mon, 18 May 1998, Sean Hennessey wrote: > > > I thought I was the only one who noticed this. Fan or no, a person who > > has changed more lives that just about any pop singer you can name has > > passed, and he's been over shadowed by a f*cking telly show?!? > > Hang on, we're now obligated to give respect to artists based on how many > OTHER people like them? No, that would be ridiculous, not to mention, it's not what Sean said. > I hated Sinatra's music Which, I would venture, puts you in a distinct minority. The majority, BTW, includes people like Dylan, Springsteen, and Elvis Costello (who wrote a wonderful tribute in today's Manchester Guardian). Anyone who can truly say they "hated" Sinatra's music has zero credibility. One cannot care for music and say they "hate" Sinatra's music. I find it hard to believe one can have a pulse and say they "hate" Sinatra's music. The same would go for many other artists. One cannot care about music, one cannot love music and "hate" the music of Sinatra, Presley, the Beatles, Hank Williams, Robert Johnson, Dylan and countless others. Not your cup of tea - okay. Like someone else more - okay. Take it or leave it - okay. But "hate" - that's absurd. > and, from what I hear, he > was a venal, petty, violent man. Hear from whom? What unimpeachable source was this? And based on your own silly logic, what would it matter what you hear from others? If you care to look, you will find many statements that Sinatra integrated Las Vegas, refusing to perform until the casinos changed their policies and allowed blacks to use the restrooms and pools and other facilities. These were blacks like Sammy Davis Jr., who could perform on the stage in Vegas but couldn't use the swimming pool. Until Sinatra changed all that. You also find that Sinatra had a key role in the establishment of the state of Israel (don't take my word for it, check out www.israelvisit.co.il/BehindTheNews; quoting from the ISRAEL RESOURCE NEWS AGENCY "Frank Sinatra was proud to be one of the Americans who volunteered to help Israel gain its independence against all odds against the British empire after World War II, when Sinatra became a key operative in that gun-running operation for Israel. Teddy Kollek, later Jerusalem's mayor, was at the time a top intelligence aide to the man who would become Israel's first prime minister, David Ben Gurion. In one instance, Kollek recalled how a certain gunship from the US had to pay bribes to Mexican intermediaries who would otherwise would not let the ship leave the port. Kollek remembered that the man whom the Zionists could get the cash payment from was Sinatra, and how Kollek arranged to meet the singer in a night club in New York, get the cash and somehow get the money to Mexico, thereby assuring delivery of the arms cache to Israel in time for the Jewish state's war of independence against the British. Yet Frank Sinatra, who played a Jewish warrior for Israel, also managed to become a hero to Israeli Arabs, when he donated his salary from CAST A GIANT SHADOW to complete the Frank Sinatra Jewish-Arab youth center in the heart of Nazareth, the Christian Arab village in Israel's lower Galilee region. That center, the initiative of Israel's labor federation, had captured Sinatra's imagination, way before it became popular to champion the cause of Jewish-Arab reconciliation. During the filming of the movie, Sinatra took time off to take the entire movie cast to watch him dedicate the center, only one year after Israel had lifted the military government over the Israeli Arabs of the Galilee. At the dedication of the FRANK SINATRA JEWISH-ARAB YOUTH CENTER in Nazareth, Sinatra, always "young at heart", gave a little speech, in which he said, "Never grew up enough to really understand adults, but I think I understand kids. If we can get them together when they're young enough, maybe when they get big, they'll be smarter than we have been". Frank Sinatra, accomplished in death what very few people see in their lifetime - He was mourned both by Arabs and Jews in the Israel.). And his countless acts of charity will only now start to come to light. And none of it, the good or the bad even if all of it is true, has anything to do with Sinatra's music, talent, impact, or place in the music world. > Among the things I cared more about this > weekend than his death: the boring Seinfeld finale, the intriguing X-Files > finale, a library book sale, a party I went to, some friends I talked to > (who aren't dead) and making sure my cat got fed. I don't will that > everyone else do so, but I stand by my right to have never cared about > Sinatra. All fine and dandy and all irrelevant to Sean's point as I saw it. Didn't say you (or anyone else specifically) had to care about Sinatra or his death. Didn't say you had to care less about feeding your cat. Simply voiced surprise that there was more commentary on Seinfeld than on Sinatra. And given that this is a list about a musician, it's surprising to me as well. Certainly, comments on Sinatra's passing would be more germane than comments on Seinfeld. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 03:42:44 GMT From: dwdudic@erols.com (David W. Dudich) Subject: hurt yourselves (100% metal machine music content) For you lou reed fans, a shrine (with audio samples!) to his most psychotic record EVER. http://www.netads.com/~meo/music/mmm/ from the liner notes: "my week beats your year." I don't think THIS was a major influence on Robyn Hitchcock, Patti SMith, or indeed, any sane person in the history of time. :-) Now, if only somebody can direct me to a site for the New York band 'Sucide'... -luther ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:52:32 -0500 From: nicastr@idt.net (Ben) Subject: Re: soul and head (RH meets RT) > Shall we call a feggathering at the Rams Head? For those who >have never been there, it is a WONDERFUL place. It is not a dive at >all! > just the contrary! And plus, Richard Thompson has played >their too, so it MUST be a good venue! :-) > > -luther AND... Richard Thompson is playing at Wolf Trap the night before Robyn plays the Ram's Head! Hmmm... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 21:44:33 -0700 From: Ethyl Ketone Subject: Re: James' apt Sinatra statement At 20.34 -0700 5/18/98, Alfred Masciocchi wrote: >All fine and dandy and all irrelevant to Sean's point as I saw it. >Didn't say you (or anyone else specifically) had to care about Sinatra >or his death. Didn't say you had to care less about feeding your cat. >Simply voiced surprise that there was more commentary on Seinfeld than >on Sinatra. And given that this is a list about a musician, it's >surprising to me as well. Certainly, comments on Sinatra's passing >would be more germane than comments on Seinfeld. OK, I'll add to the fire... Who the hell is Seinfeld? No, seriously, I don't watch TV. Precisely because viewers get so wrapped up in the most amazing unreality that it takes over their lives (and also because the last intellegent thing I saw on the tube before I gave up and turned it off was The Prisoner). But Sinatra? Can't really get away from that exposure can we? Add to it the fact that many of us on the list (I'm guessing but probably not far off) had parents who were teens at least in the "war" (yeah, the 40s) and have heard Sinatra in the years growing up. I did. And the stories. And a certain mystique grew. I hated the stuff and embraced all else until one day I sat and listened to some old 40s recordings. Bingo. I don't know anything about the guy, his politics, his friends, his attitude, his suit size, even his history. I just know a few vintage recordings. So the point? I can't grieve for an 82 year old human with a more than full life behind him. But I can recognize and appreciate his influence on this centuries music. Period. Whatever your opinion, there is no denying he was a force behind the growth of modern (aka 20th century) music. And yes, I'd rather hear Sid's "My Way" anyday! - - carrie ps: flame on!! "Questions are a burden for others. Answers are a prison for oneself." **************************************************************************** M.E.Ketone/C.Galbraith meketone@ix.netcom.com cgalbraith@psygnosis.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 21:53:19 -0700 From: Ethyl Ketone Subject: Re: Various At 7.52 -0700 5/18/98, normal@grove.ufl.edu wrote: >3) I don't believe that The Firesign Theatre has been mentioned on this >list, so I'm mentioning them now. Oh my god...I had hoped they would and would not be mentioned. Bittersweet. Usually their fans are quietly avid and their non-fans very vocal. But having mentioned before the recently acquired turntable allowing for the return to vinyl hidden in closets for years, I have begun to intersperse old Floyd with, yes, old Firesign Theater. Reminders of the "Firesign Theater Show and Costume Ball" that happened every year at "the same old place in Santa Barbara." Saw them a couple of years ago on a "25th anniversary" tour and they still hold their own and even had new material (and updated old material). My comment was only that it's the same old Firesign Theater crowd, just that now they drive Volvos and Beamers. Oh, and a majority showed up wearing, you got it, clown noses. ("Go ahead kid, give the wheeze a squeeze"). Cheers, - - carrie "Questions are a burden for others. Answers are a prison for oneself." **************************************************************************** M.E.Ketone/C.Galbraith meketone@ix.netcom.com cgalbraith@psygnosis.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:26:15 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: hurt yourselves (100% metal machine music content) >Now, if only somebody can direct me to a site for the New York band >'Suicide'... I don't think there is one. About the best you could do would probably be the entry on the Trouser Press site. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 00:06:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Capuchin Subject: Re: James' apt Sinatra statement This post is meant to be exactly as reasonable as the one to which it is replying. Most of the opinions are mine, but some are exaggerated just a touch. On Mon, 18 May 1998, Alfred Masciocchi wrote: > > > I hated Sinatra's music > > Which, I would venture, puts you in a distinct minority. So? > The majority, > BTW, includes people like Dylan, Springsteen, and Elvis Costello (who > wrote a wonderful tribute in today's Manchester Guardian). So? Even cool people can have bad taste. > Anyone who > can truly say they "hated" Sinatra's music has zero credibility. In what dimension? I can't fucking STAND Sinatra's music. The songs he DID write were boring, out of time tunes that do nothing for me on the emotional level, zero for me on the poetic verse level, absolute dick for me on the inovatively inspiring level, and just plain bore me to tears on the interesting melody level. Some of the big band music is somewhat fun and exciting, but I could do without the toneless crooning of the prettyboy with the mic. He was a pretty good actor, yup. He suited his day's theatrical style to be sure. His music drives me up the fucking wall. > One > cannot care for music and say they "hate" Sinatra's music. Wait a minute... then I don't care for music! Oh, that must be it. That must be why I pay so much attention to it and strive to create my own and admire greatly the folks who do it well. I don't care about it... I must not, because I hate Sinatra's music. > I find it > hard to believe one can have a pulse and say they "hate" Sinatra's > music. Either you're staring incredulously or I'm dead. Dead and typing. > The same would go for many other artists. One cannot care about > music, one cannot love music and "hate" the music of Sinatra, Presley, > the Beatles, Hank Williams, Robert Johnson, Dylan and countless others. Hate it, hate it, appreciate it, dig it, appreciate it, don't know 'nuff about it... but I must say I don't get anything from what I HAVE heard. I must REALLY not care about music. > Not your cup of tea - okay. Like someone else more - okay. Take it or > leave it - okay. But "hate" - that's absurd. I cringe at Sinatra and Elvis Presley (with the exception of Devil In Disguise for purely nostalgic novelty value). I find Debbie Gibson's early work more interesting, musically (though lyrically, they're on par). Largely intolerable. Can that be called hate? It's stronger than "take it or leave it". I must be absurd and irrational. Yup. I'm one of the least ordered minds in the world, I'd say. > > and, from what I hear, he > > was a venal, petty, violent man. > Hear from whom? What unimpeachable source was this? And based on your > own silly logic, what would it matter what you hear from others? I'm pretty sure the original poster didn't care what others opinions might be. I'm also pretty sure that the above statement by the original poster meant to state that the poster's opinion of Sinatra's actions (as related by others for the poster has no first-hand knowledge of Sinatra's actions for whatever reason of proximity and social circles) was that those actions are those of a petty, venal, violent man. Yeah, I didn't know the guy either, but I've heard he did some things that I'd call pretty rotten. Case in point: > You also find that Sinatra had a key role in > the establishment of the state of Israel > "Frank Sinatra was proud to be one of the Americans > who volunteered to help Israel gain its independence against all odds > against the British empire after World War II, when Sinatra became a key > operative in that gun-running operation for Israel. Israeli independence from Brittain? Yeah... there was this Jewish state of Israel until the British came in and took over! There wasn't a Palestinian state that was then overrun and appointed as a Jewish state by the newly formed UN... No no... that's not what happened at all. Oh... and running guns isn't my idea of humanitarian work. > Teddy Kollek, later > Jerusalem's mayor, was at the time a top intelligence aide to the man > who would become Israel's first prime minister, David Ben Gurion. In one > instance, Kollek recalled how a certain gunship from the US had to pay > bribes to Mexican intermediaries who would otherwise would not let the > ship leave the port. Kollek remembered that the man whom the Zionists > could get the cash payment from was Sinatra, and how > Kollek arranged to meet the singer in a night club in New York, get the > cash and somehow get the money to Mexico, thereby assuring delivery of > the arms cache to Israel in time for the Jewish state's war of > independence against the British. OK... bribery, money laundering and gun running for a group of religious extremists. Boyo, he was a great man. Him and David Koresh. > At the dedication of the FRANK SINATRA JEWISH-ARAB YOUTH CENTER in > Nazareth, Sinatra, always "young at heart", gave a little speech, in > which he said, "Never grew up enough to really understand adults, but I > think I understand kids. If we can get them together when they're young > enough, maybe when they get big, they'll be smarter than we have been". > Frank Sinatra, accomplished in death what very few people see in their > lifetime - He was mourned both by Arabs and Jews in the Israel.). And > his countless acts of charity will only now start to come to light. Sounds like the actions of a guilty soul. Too little too late, in my book. > And none of it, the good or the bad even if all of it is true, has > anything to do with Sinatra's music, talent, impact, or place in the > music world. Yeah, because if it did, he'd've been stopped dead at the border. I know I wouldn't let that crap in my country. Remember how many records Celine Dion sells. That's why I don't believe in Democracy. > Didn't say you (or anyone else specifically) had to care about Sinatra > or his death. But we can't hate his music unless we resign our appreciation for ALL music. Sensible. > Didn't say you had to care less about feeding your cat. Phew. If I cared less about feeding my cat than I do about Sinatra, I'd have a dessicated feline corpse atop my monitor instead of this lithe little bastard. > Simply voiced surprise that there was more commentary on Seinfeld than > on Sinatra. And given that this is a list about a musician, it's > surprising to me as well. Certainly, comments on Sinatra's passing > would be more germane than comments on Seinfeld. This is a list about a musician. So we could limit ourselves to talk about musicians, music, and musical instruments. This is a group about a mostly clever man who makes poignant and sometimes funny observations about the mundanity of existence. So we could limit ourselves to talk about people who make poignant and sometimes funny observations about the mundanity of existence, the mundanity of existence itself, and poignant, sometimes funny observations. One says never talk about Seinfeld. One says never talk about Sinatra. I say this is a group of people with three things in common (the love of Robyn Hitchcock, a desire to share and listen to others share what they're thinking on or off that topic because of the first commonality, and an email address. Many of us also have heaps of spare time and a love of music in general, but I wouldn't say that's all of us by a longshot. Probably somewhere near the percentage of us that can drive a car, but that's not all of us. Nope. Not all). And we talk about whatever we want. And when two things are brought up at the same time, odds are pretty good that one of them is going to get a little more coverage than another. Now, Seinfeld's put out about 85 hours of TV. I'm guessing Sinatra's topped that a bit between records, movies, and TV. Seinfeld did it in 9 years. Sinatra did his in 60. Guess which one has impacted me more within my lifetime? The idea that the death of a person (any person, no less!) is more important than some particular television show is ludicrous to me. A television show is the result of years of hard work by a team of dozens of individuals. There is a creative force there and a will to make something worthwhile that shapes others' lives. What comes out could be cool or crap. A human being is the result of a few minutes of lustful grunting and nine months gestation. What comes out of that could be cool or crap. It all depends on your persepective. I don't really care one way or another, to tell you the truth. I think it's stupid that people get worked up about whether or not I care more about this or that. Pipe up and say you care and it matters, don't just bag on the folks that don't. It's easy to sit back and say we're all heartless shits for not wailing over Sinatra when you didn't wail over either until you had some other person about which you can whine. If you're upset that more folks talked about Seinfeld than Sinatra, maybe you should learn to post more about the things you like and not let the things you don't fill this list. Don't bitch at me for what I post, just post something more interesting and sway the conversation your direction. That is all. J. ________________________________________________________ J A Brelin Capuchin ________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V7 #193 *******************************