From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org (fegmaniax-digest) To: fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Subject: fegmaniax-digest V7 #162 Reply-To: fegmaniax@smoe.org Sender: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk fegmaniax-digest Monday, April 27 1998 Volume 07 : Number 162 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Album Titles [Terrence M Marks ] re: another brain teaser [Ed.Doxtator@ssa.co.uk] Re: album title [Aaron Mandel ] re: another brain teaser [Russ Reynolds ] Re: another brain-teaser? [Mike Runion ] gabriel...unofficial names? [Marshall Joseph Armintor ] Re: another brain teaser [hal brandt ] re: brain teaser [griffith ] 100% political (long, and rather disjointed) [Christopher Gross ] re: brain teaser [Bayard ] Re: 100% political (long, and rather disjointed) [Terrence M Marks ] Roughly 60% political ["JH3" ] another degrees of RH quiz [nicastr@idt.net (Ben)] SF Gigs: Good News/Bad News [Tom Clark ] Re: peter gabriel [Eb ] more real short band names [Christopher Gross ] Re: unnecessary political rant [Rich Plumb ] Really unnecessary political rant ["Chris, the missing years." any] he stuck in his thumb, and pulled out a *what*? [Bayard Subject: Re: Album Titles 1) KMFDM has one of those all-symbol album titles. (I'm instinctively trying to tell you which one, but I can't, because the album title is just a bunch of symbols.) 2) The Incredible String Band's "U" ought to at least tie for first in that "shortest album title" thing. (And as a decent example of how fringe religions and bands don't really mix) Terrence Marks normal@grove.ufl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:30:37 +0100 From: Ed.Doxtator@ssa.co.uk Subject: re: another brain teaser Mmm... The first Echobelly album, "EGO" (short for "Everybody's Got One") Elastica's "2:1" - -Doc ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:55:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: album title On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Ben wrote: > Has anyone else released any albums with symbols for titles? KMFDM did recently; i think the title was something like . and Lotion seem to be waffling on whether their new one is or "The Telephone Album". short titles: Toiling Midgets, _Son_; Colin Newman, _CN1_. long song titles: i'm not sure whether the intangible concept of fairness someone mentioned has disqualified some of the longer entrants, so i'll suggest "I Just Took My Two Sleeping Pills And Now I'm Like A Bridegroom Standing At The Altar" by American Music Club, who also did "In My Role As The Most Hated Singer In The Local Underground Music Scene" and "What Godzilla Said To God When His Name Wasn't Found In The Book Of Life". a ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 98 08:19:00 -0800 From: Russ Reynolds Subject: re: another brain teaser three character (or less) album titles... besides the U2 omissions which have already been mentioned there's these million sellers: Ten Vs. Bad and this several-thousand seller: 154 Another album which quite a few people bought--Led Zeppelin's 4th album (commonly refered to as Zoso)--actually has no title, unlike the multitude of "self titled" albums. There must be dozens more. Glen will probably be along with a list shortly. - -russ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:23:28 -0700 From: Mike Runion Subject: Re: another brain-teaser? A few more obvious ones... Rio 4 Ten Vs. Hot Sap (if EP's count) - -- Mike Runion Cocoa, FL, USA /******************************************************************\ | VCM: http://www5.palmnet.net/~mrrunion/cones.htm | | Fegmaps: http://www5.palmnet.net/~mrrunion/fegmaps | | Spoken Word Tape: http://www5.palmnet.net/~mrrunion/wordtape.htm | \******************************************************************/ "Wait a minute. Time for a Planetary Sit-In!" - Julian Cope ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:35:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Marshall Joseph Armintor Subject: gabriel...unofficial names? I'm not a Peter Gabriel fan as such, although I do have a couple of his records (shouldn't everyone?), and the unofficial naming convention for his untitled records is, I think, to use the brief description of the album cover to refer to that album. So, the first one is colloquially known as "Rainy Windshield" (or something), the second "Fingernails," the third "Melting Face". Their "official" (catalog) designation is that they're all self-titled. The fourth one was untitled as well when released in the UK (and still is, I think, right?), but the American distribution label slapped the title _Security_ on it...not Peter's idea at all. marshall ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:58:47 -0400 From: "Chaney, Dolph L" Subject: RE: gabriel...unofficial names? Actually, regarding those first 3 Gabriel albums, that "unofficial" habit of calling the albums by their artwork is almost official. The designations "Car," "Scratch," and "Melt" for each of the first three solo albums appear on http://realworld.on.net/pg/discography/menu.html, the discography page on Radio Real World, the official PG website. I've also seen "Car," "Scratch," and "Melt" on a _So_-era poster. Dolph ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:44:44 -0600 From: hal brandt Subject: Fun w/ Enhanced CD's > Hey, there's a thread: What's everyone's > favorite CD-extra? Todd Rundgren's "The Individualist" features a game set to the tune "Cast The First Stone" that gives the player the opportunity to hurl rocks at Pat Buchanan, Rush Limbaugh, and scary televangelist Robert Tilton. Let's see Nintendo 64 top that'n! /hal ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:57:27 -0600 From: hal brandt Subject: Re: another brain teaser > three character (or less) album titles... > > There must be dozens more. RA by Utopia. /hal (w/2nd Rundgren post in a day) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:22:27 -0700 (PDT) From: griffith Subject: re: brain teaser would all of those albums by Chicago qualify? I seem to remember that ALL of their albums are just numbers. griffith np - "Royal Queen Albert & Beautiful Homer" - RH (got my copy over the weekend - glad I did not have to pay for it). = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Griffith Davies hbrtv219@csun.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:31:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: 100% political (long, and rather disjointed) Last week I helped start the current political debate, but then I decided to let it drop. This was in part to avoid an unpleasant argument and in part to avoid getting on anyone's shit list while I'm still a newbie. However, the debate has continued without me, and now, my willpower eroded by Monday morning grumpiness, I can no longer resist adding my own comments. On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Capitalism Blows wrote: > "overwhelmingly more horrifying" than those of other countries. Depends > on your criteria for horror, I guess.> > again, sorry. i meant, taken in total. considering we've been at it > for two hundred years -- compared with hitler's twelve, for example. and > considering that we've been the only global hegemon in history, and that > we've had the most destructive weapons in history at our disposal. > we're also obviously responsible for crimes carried out with our weapons > and approval. and for crimes made possible or facilitated by our > intransigence in the u.n. and let's don't forget economic warfare, > which is often every bit and even a little more destructive than > incendiary warfare. finally, classical/neoliberal economics (and imf > enforcement of same) are probably even more destructive still. the u.s. > isn't solely at fault for imf/world bank crimes, but we certainly lead > the way. > if, taking the whole ball of wax into account, you still disagree, i'd > genuinely like to know why (off list, o' course.) Well, it's too late for your off-list debate, I'm afraid.... In a sense it's pointless to debate whose crimes are worse, at least when we're talking about whole countries and societies. The scale is too large, the circumstances too different. But having made that disclaimer, I would argue that there's a difference between the *number* of crimes (to use the word crime as a shorthand term for "morally bad acts, whether or not illegal") that a country has committed, and the *severity* of those crimes. In this respect, the Nazis still stand supreme and untouched: they are the only modern regime to have made complete genocide, in this case against the Jewish "race", official state policy. Even though other countries have also committed de facto genocide, few have gone so far as to say "we're going to kill every last [X] in the world." On the other hand, the crimes that the US has committed -- the conquest of the native peoples, slavery, imperialism, attacking civilians during wartime -- are morally no different than those that many other countries have committed over the course of history, though the scale of some of them may have been unusually large. I'm not saying the US is innocent, but I reject the idea that the US has been worse than everyone else. I'm also sceptical of Eddie's assertion that "classical/liberal economics" is so evil. In my opinion, no other system would be any better. As the old joke goes, "Under capitalism, man exploits man; under socialism, it's the other way around." At least under capitalism the right to private property, which I think fulfills a natural human need, is respected; and the more successful capitalist economies have produced better standards of living than in any socialist country. As for having the most destructive weapons in history, I assume you mean nuclear weapons. When's the last time we used them, eh? Over half a century ago, wasn't it? And then it was at the end of a desparate conflict that had already seen far worse atrocities. I think that shows more restraint than the average military superpower has displayed. Finally, you say it's "obvious" that "responsible for crimes carried out with our weapons and approval," but I think matters are more complicated than that. There are degrees of responsibility. Just because we supported El Salvador's right-wing regime over the Communist guerrillas doesn't mean that we are responsible for every peasant killed by the death squads. You could say the US bears some responsibility for not stopping it, but that's not the same as actually causing it. (Does the US bear responsibility for Stalinism because we helped the USSR fight the Axis in WWII?) On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, Rich Plumb wrote: > > and considering that we've been the only global hegemon in history, and that > > we've had the most destructive weapons in history at our disposal. > I would call the Romans a global hegemon in their day. A relatively much > more horrifying regime than ours. We've only used our weapons once and > it was justified. I would also say it was justified for us to have > been a participant in the cold war and arms race. I'd disagree that Rome was a global hegemon, but really the two situations are so different that it's hard to compare. I do agree that we were justified in the Cold War, but the rightness of our cause doesn't excuse some of the acts that were committed in its name. > The fact that the US has always been a beacon of freedom and opportunity > to the rest of the world as well as an inspiration cannot be denied. > You can of course find all sorts of exceptions and dwell on the negatives, > but it has been an overwhelmingly positive force in the world. While we might be on the same side, I think you're going too far here. Again, though, it's a judgement call. How much good does it take to overwhelm X number of crimes? Maybe if you took out the "overwhelmingly" your statement would be easier to accept. On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Alex Martin wrote: > I will concede that america has never done anything as genocidal to it's > own people as > hitler did. However you came close with the de facto aparteid that existed > in america until the 1950's. The massive illegal bombing of Laos and > Cambodia in 60's and 70's the Iran Contra, Nicaragua Grenada etc. stuff in > the 80's and the repeated attacks on Iraqui civilians in the 90's. I don't agree that any of this "comes close" to Hitler's Final Solution. See above. > When the romans conqered a territory they introduced aqueducts, libraries > ,education etc. and they also extended roman citizenship to many of the > conquered peoples. With the exception of Japan and Germany everywhere > America used force has been the worse off for it. Korea? [in response to Rich Plumb] > No. Imperialisim is acceptable as long as it is the U.S. that has the > empire in question. This is not what he meant, and I suspect that you know it. On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, tanter wrote: > "Always?" hardly. The US has NOT been a beacon of freedom and opportunity. > The Americans were blasted by the Europeans for not stopping slavery > earlier, for example. Our years of huge immigration were not caused by > people desperate to come here, they were caused by the insane oppression > faced by those people in their homelands. The US allowed them to come > here, so they came. The Dick Whittington myth is just that, a myth. I'm afraid this doesn't make sense. If people were oppressed in their homelands and saw immigration to the US as a way out, as you say, then how can you say immigrants weren't desperate to come here? And in my historical studies, most immigrants didn't get off the boat muttering "America sucks, we're gonna be oppressed here." America wasn't (and isn't) perfect, but it still offered most immigrants a better life than they had at home. > Freedom and opportunity have only been available, in their true forms, to a > small percentage of the population. Umm, how do you define the "true forms" of freedom and opportunity? > Who > still looks to us for inspiration? Do any fegs from other countries long > to live in the US, to become US citizens? Why or why not? A-ha! So you admit that people once looked to the US for inspiration.... But seriously, the US is no longer such an inspiration because lots of other countries have caught up with us. A hundred and twenty years ago, we were about the best there was, all our faults notwithstanding. Okay, I feel better now that I got all that off my chest. You can all feel free to tear my ideas to shreds, either on the list or in private e-mail. I promise not to take it personally! - --Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:01:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: re: brain teaser On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, griffith wrote: > np - "Royal Queen Albert & Beautiful Homer" - RH (got my copy over the > weekend - glad I did not have to pay for it). if you're glad you didn't have to pay $20 or whatever, i can understand. but if you mean it's not worth a red cent, give it a few more listens. both bob dylan and robyn come out of the concert looking darn good. a ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:17:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Bayard Subject: re: brain teaser On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Aaron Mandel wrote: > On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, griffith wrote: > > > np - "Royal Queen Albert & Beautiful Homer" - RH (got my copy over the > > weekend - glad I did not have to pay for it). > > if you're glad you didn't have to pay $20 or whatever, i can understand. > but if you mean it's not worth a red cent, give it a few more listens. > both bob dylan and robyn come out of the concert looking darn good. it's a good show but if they wanted to release it they could have at least recorded it well. and the cover-- black on brown? what were they thinking? ObBrainTeaser-- Sunscreem have an album called O3 (that's the letter o and a subscript 3.) Dread Zone have one called 360^ but the degrees symbol may not be allowable depending on how strictly the rules are enforced. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:00:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Terrence M Marks Subject: Re: 100% political (long, and rather disjointed) > > When the romans conqered a territory they introduced aqueducts, libraries > > ,education etc. and they also extended roman citizenship to many of the > > conquered peoples. With the exception of Japan and Germany everywhere > > America used force has been the worse off for it. > > Korea? Just because no-one else bothered with the rilly obvious ones: California has, I think, been improved since we took it from Mexico. Puerto Rico? Guam? The Canal Zone? America used force against Vichy France in the 1940s, and I'd imagine that the French people are vaguely appreciative of that. (And since my other post appears not to have gotten through, The Incredibel String Band had an album called 'U', which was more-or-less the beginning of their decline into Scientology.) Terrence Marks normal@grove.ufl.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 98 14:28:38 -0500 From: The Great Quail Subject: peter gabriel Marcy writes, >Well....what about all those Peter Gabriel albums that were untitled? >Where do they fit in? Well, I don't actually think they were untitled, nor really considered "peter gabriel 1, 2, 3, and 4." The first four PG albums are all called just that -- "peter gabriel." I am pretty sure (reaching back to my prog rock heyday) that's how it works. And by the way, the fourth PG album is not really called "Security." That was something the label demanded get added to the cassette spine -- it is nowhere on the real album. It, like the preceding three, is just called "peter gabriel." Of course, to continue this mythology, the fifth PG CD was called "So" and was the first to have a perfectly clear picture of Gabriel on the cover. Perhaps an ironic wink. Now, aren't you all happy to know that? (By the way, since Robert Fripp and Tony Levin played on Gabriel CDs, I will leave connecting PG to RH as an excercize for the student. Perhaps as a break between sessions of America bashing.) - --The Quail n.p.: What else?! The new Philip Glass CD ("Symphony No. 2") came out! Oh, and along with the new Kronos/Adams CD -- I am in minimalist heaven! (Which is probably a lot like the Talking Head's song when you really think about it.) PS: And, yes Eb, you'll be happy to know that the photo of Phil on the CD has him staring pensively, with his fingers making arcane gestures by his face. - ---------------------------------+-------------------------------- The Great Quail, K.S.C. | Literature Site - The Libyrinth: TheQuail@cthulhu.microserve.com | www.rpg.net/quail/libyrinth www.rpg.net/quail | Vampire Site - New York by Night: riverrun Discordian Society | www.rpg.net/quail/NYBN 73 De Chirico Street | Arkham, Orbis Tertius 2112-42 | ** What is FEGMANIA? ** "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents." -- H.P. Lovecraft ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:40:22 -0500 From: "JH3" Subject: Roughly 60% political Christopher Gross wrote: >In this respect, the Nazis still stand supreme and untouched: >they are the only modern regime to have made complete genocide, in this >case against the Jewish "race", official state policy. The Nazis were almost certainly the worst, but please don't forget the Turks' genocidal policies against the Armenians. (Not *quite* as modern, but still during this century.) I'd also consider the Pol Pot regime's genocidal activities to have been just as official as the Nazis'; after all, the Nazis did try to keep the holocaust a secret from the rest of the world. And there are lots of other recent examples that are more or less arguable, such as Iraqi persecution of the Kurds. On a totally unrelated note, does anybody here remember a band called Punishment of Luxury? I'm looking for someone who has a copy of Nevilluxury's only (?) solo album (rare and long since out of print) who wouldn't mind dubbing it for me in exchange for, you know, whatever. John H. Hedges III ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:05:42 -0500 From: nicastr@idt.net (Ben) Subject: another degrees of RH quiz This one can be done in 3 steps: Robyn Hitchcock to Stevie Ray Vaughn ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 98 12:50:34 -0700 From: Tom Clark Subject: SF Gigs: Good News/Bad News Attention those attending the SF festivities this week: Good News: I'll be seeing Hitchcock on Tuesday night. Bad News: It's Ken Hitchcock, coach of the Dallas Stars. They're in town getting their butts kicked by the Sharks in the NHL playoffs. Good News: I'll be at Robyn's show on Wednesday night. Bad News: I volunteered to find a place to meet up before the show, but I can't find anything decent within walking distance to the GAMH (except, of course, for the O'Farrell Theater 8^). Can any SF Fegs advise? I don't think we should attempt dinner since it's a genral admission venue, so we probably want to be there when the doors open. Besides, they have a decent kitchen anyway. I see there are a couple of hotels in the area - maybe one has a bar we could crash. Anybody know anything about the Richelieu on Van Ness & Geary? How about the Lombard on Geary & Polk? thanks much, - -tc ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:13:19 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: peter gabriel The Great Quisp wrote: >Well, I don't actually think they were untitled, nor really considered >"peter gabriel 1, 2, 3, and 4." The first four PG albums are all called >just that -- "peter gabriel." I am pretty sure (reaching back to my prog >rock heyday) that's how it works. Yes, that's true. They're not UNtitled -- they're SELF-titled. I've read Gabriel talking about this -- his conception was that his early albums were conceived to be like issues of a magazine, hence they all have the same title. Neat. >And by the way, the fourth PG album is not really called "Security." That >was something the label demanded get added to the cassette spine -- it is >nowhere on the real album. It, like the preceding three, is just called >"peter gabriel." Right. I bought the record when it was new, and it had a "Security" sticker on the shrinkwrap and (I THINK) didn't say "Security" anywhere else. I traded in the vinyl for a CD awhile back, so I can't be sure now. One of my all-time favorite albums -- even beats Underwater Moonlight. Hell, I like it better than most *Beatles* records. >PS: And, yes Eb, you'll be happy to know that the photo of Phil on the CD >has him staring pensively, with his fingers making arcane gestures by his >face. But of course. Although I must say, I saw a hourlong special on the making of Paul Simon's Graceland a few days ago, and (Hearts & Bones collaborator) Glass was interviewed and seemed like an OK guy. I can't remember if he was able to keep his hands off his face -- it's a grave affliction, but hopefully the tragic case of Richard Lewis will bring this disease more into mainstream consciousness. By the way, I was just playing a new double-disc compilation of the Paul Butterfield Blues Band. If any of you godforsaken Deadheads haven't heard Butterfield's song "East-West" (13 minutes of raga-esque blues jamming), you really oughta. Cuts anything I've heard by the Dead to ribbons. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:24:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Gross Subject: more real short band names I don't think any of these have been mentioned yet, but then, my memory is erratic at best.... Foreigner's _4_ Front 242's _Off_ (unless you consider its title to be _05:22:09:12 Off_) Avogadro's Number, an extremely local (ie, small-time) College Park, MD-area band from the early 90's, had a cassette called _One_ Meat Beat Manifesto's _99%_ 311's self-titled album And yes, Virginia (or whoever mentioned it), there was a Pigface album titled _Gub_ - --Chris ______________________________________________________________________ Christopher Gross On the Internet, nobody knows I'm a dog. chrisg@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:40:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Rich Plumb Subject: Re: unnecessary political rant I'm sorry to create all this ranting and raving, but I felt I needed to respond to any who call the United States the most horrible nation in the history of the world. I know this country has committed a tremendous number of terrible crimes, many of which have been mentioned. I know we throw our weight around. I know there are still horrible inequities in our society. I'm sure that we could do better in many areas, but I think we've done pretty well. A few specific responses: 1) The UN - I think Jesse Helms is the one holding up things, but the main reason is that the UN is mostly a welfare program of useless bureaucrats doing nothing to which we are asked to pay a disproportionate share. 2) New Zealand - I agree the nuclear thing was an abomination from the wretched Reagan administration, but weren't an awful lot of Maoris slaughtered in your past and aren't they still mostly living in poverty. 3) American Indians - I'm part Indian and I think it's quite tragic what happened to my ancestors. However that's the way things were then. The whites were stronger. 4) Beacon of freedom - While I'm sure it's a joke for more sophisticated Europeans, this country still has 1.5 million immigrants a year many from Europe and the Antipodes. Millions have come to escape from various wars around the world in the last half century and have thrived. Oh well I wish I was in San Francisco seeing the Robyn film and his performance (as well as catching a Giants game or two) and maybe having a chance to argue in person with eddie. I used to be a bomb-throwing communist, but at some point my philosophy changed and now I prefer to look at the good and do something about changing the bad which I'm attempting to do. rich ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:56:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Chris, the missing years." Subject: Really unnecessary political rant Heya-- > I'm sorry to create all this ranting and raving, but I felt I needed > to respond to any who call the United States the most horrible nation in > the history of the world. Paleez, children. All this talk of "politics" is causing problems. You see each time I get one of these messages I cannot delete it fast enough. This cause a long time illness of mine to resurface--spontaneous projectile vomit syndrome. So far, I have managed to contain the mess, but with much more of this I cannot say. So please, we have said our piece and that is good enough--let's not rank or sift through the burdens of history. Thanks. Cleaning my keyboard, .chris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:14:10 -0400 (EDT) From: dmw Subject: >any Front 242's _Off_ (unless you consider its title to be _05:22:09:12 Off_) F U I K Off? sure that's not a funny-looking "3??" i rather think that has an implicit title. cryptosickly, - -- d. n.p. dirty three _ocean songs_ p.s. _in the aeroplane..._ hit me full force this weekend. dunno why it took so long to "get" it. - - oh,no!! you've just read mail from doug = dmayowel@access.digex.net - - and dmw@mwmw.com ... get yr pathos at http://www.pathetic-caverns.com/ - - new reviews! tunes, books, flicks, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:15:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Bayard Subject: he stuck in his thumb, and pulled out a *what*? I'd just like to chime in and say that Rich is one of the coolest guys to hang out with. He has great taste in music and brews his own (excellent) beer. (late last year it was a little something he called "Black Christmas".) I've seen some awesome concerts with him. And all he's really done is respond to some strong opinions in kind, having taken exception to what he no doubt saw as two unprovoked attacks (Eb's hissyfit last week, and Eddie's parallel twixt America and the Third Reich.) So next time you chance to think "What's up with this Rich Plumb guy?" I hope you will then remember "Oh-- but Bayard likes him. That makes him ok in my book." We now return you to your regularly scheduled Robyn Hitchock list. - -Nerdy Grover ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:10:17 -0400 From: kenster@MIT.EDU (Ken Ostrander) Subject: political schmitical >You are deluded. We've never in our history done anything as heinous as >Hitler. just remember that the winners write history to make themselves look good. >>Of course slaughtering the Indians seems pretty nasty in this day and age, >>but imperialism was common before the 20th century and not considered the >>crime against humanity it is today. > > For those who ARE part indian, you bet the hell it is! speaking as one, i can say "fuck'um no'count land grabbers." and a few tribes making it big in the casino industry doesn't come close to taking it back. people use the term "indian giver" as someone who gives a present and then takes it back. in reality the american indians would loan out parcels of land to members of the tribe to work on it for a season. the earth was always considered "a common treasury for all to share" to quote mr. william bragg. >>In this respect, the Nazis still stand supreme and untouched: >>they are the only modern regime to have made complete genocide, in this >>case against the Jewish "race", official state policy. > >The Nazis were almost certainly the worst, but please don't forget the >Turks' genocidal policies against the Armenians. (Not *quite* as modern, but >still during this century.) I'd also consider the Pol Pot regime's genocidal >activities to have been just as official as the Nazis'; after all, the Nazis >did try to keep the holocaust a secret from the rest of the world. And there >are lots of other recent examples that are more or less arguable, such as >Iraqi persecution of the Kurds. though i can't be sure, i seem to remember stalin's perpetual elimination of anyone he considered dangerous (or just didn't like) over the many years he was in control add up to more than any of these other bastards. some other recent slaughters that haven't been mentioned could include pinochet's chile and the massacres in rwanda, former yugoslavia, and east timor. >> and let's don't forget economic warfare, which is often every bit and >> even a little more destructive than incendiary warfare. >this is a real stretch. what is the US supposed to do roll over? if you think that global economic policy isn't repressive, take a close look at the third world and how these countries are unable to thrive in a "free-trade" economy. many people think that the u.s. operates as such; but alas, no. there are so many checks and balances that it couldn't be farther from the truth. of course, when we deal with newly developing countries (really just countries with no nuclear arsenal or economic power) they MUST open themselves up to outside corporate investment. no discussion. whether this happens democratically or through some puppet dictator is of no consequence. the bottom line is economic imperialism. >And one day, we'll all be dead, the earth will cease to exist and what will >it all have meant anyway? or as the great zen buddist teacher once said, "whatever." KEN "No, Ken. NO! DON'T DO THAT! IT'S RIDICULOUS!" THE KENSTER ------------------------------ End of fegmaniax-digest V7 #162 *******************************