From: owner-fegmaniax-digest@ecto.org To: fegmaniax-digest@ecto.org Reply-To: fegmaniax@ecto.org Errors-To: owner-fegmaniax-digest@ecto.org Subject: Feg Digest V5 #53 Fegmaniax Digest Volume 5 Number 53 Tuesday March 18 1997 To post, send mail to fegmaniax@ecto.org To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@ecto.org with the words "unsubscribe fegmaniax-digest" in the message body. Send comments, etc. to the listowner at owner-fegmaniax@ecto.org FegMANIAX! Web Page: http://remus.rutgers.edu/~woj/fegmaniax/index.html Archives are available at ftp://www.ecto.org/pub/lists/fegmaniax/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Today's Topics: ------- ------- Re: Rarities Re: 3/3/97 TREE STRUCTURE raoul's gig Re: Rarities (one more time) Corrections and Specifics HELP!!! recent Robyn DATs? Re: 3/3/97 TREE STRUCTURE Re: Corrections and Specifics Re: Rarities building a collection tape trees and copyright Re: Tape trees and copyright taping legality/ethics pit of souls Re: Rarities (one more time) Re: Corrections and Specifics Iron (Sledge) Horse show Re: tape trees and copyright Re: Rarities (one more time) Re: Tape trees and copyright Re: tape trees and copyright ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 17:02:32 -0500 From: "Gene Hopstetter, Jr." Subject: Re: Rarities Jay said: >Here's a novel idea: Why doesn't somebody re-issue Two Halves For The Price >Of One and Live At The Portland Arms for Christ's Effin' Sake!!! I know >we've been over this before, but if everyone (including Robyn, it seems) is >so damned interested in releasing "Product," then why not these items that >are of genuine interest and were once officially sanctioned? Well, I'm under the impression that Robyn *does not want* these reissued. I don't doubt he has access to the master tapes and that they're in good enough condition for re-mastering, but it seems like Robyn would just assume pretend he never recorded that stuff (he must regard them in the same light as the "Greasy Quiff" album, whose existence he flat out denies. I should know, I asked him about it myself). A shame, really, because that's the stuff I'd really love to have reissued. It would make a splendid box set, too. There are also several unused cuts from the Queen Elvis sessions which I would love to see reissued: "Hanging Out With Dad", "Mr. Rock and Roll", etc. Oh well. +++++++++++++++++ + Gene Hopstetter, Jr. + "I like to sleep." -- Slovenly +++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ From: Terrence M Marks Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 17:23:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: 3/3/97 TREE STRUCTURE Hmm...dunno. They've never done that before, though... Terrence Marks Second Student in the Tendo Kasumi School of Philosophy -Seeking enlightenment through normalcy. normal@grove.ufl.edu On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Ross Overbury wrote: > > Just curious -- what's to keep Sincere Management from collecting the > list of names published and harassing some or all of the people on the > tree? > > -- > Ross Overbury > Montreal, Quebec, Canada > email: rosso@cn.ca > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 17:36:58 -0500 From: mr bean jeans Subject: raoul's gig maine-fegs, tickets for the raul's gig on march 20th are on sale now for $10 at strawberry's records or the cd authority in south portland. the club's phone number is (207) 773-6886. call for more info. +w ------------------------------ From: Hedblade@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 18:52:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Rarities (one more time) << Well, I'm under the impression that Robyn *does not want* these reissued. I don't doubt he has access to the master tapes and that they're in good enough condition for re-mastering, but it seems like Robyn would just assume pretend he never recorded that stuff >> This is all well and understood (and I'm not attacking the posting party), but didn't Uncle Bobby feel the same way about Groovy Decay? Seems re-releasing *that* after years of fans clamoring for it didn't "hurt" so much. I'd venture a guess that Gravy Deco fell behind only You and Oblivion in the sales department as applied to the Rhino re-issues (in other words, second best seller of the lot). I find it hard to believe that Two Halves and Portland Arms are so horrible they don't deserve a re-issue, or that they fall in the same category as Greesy Quiff or Maureen And The Meatpackers. Quite frankly, some of the "Alternate Version" dross on the Soft Boys re-issues should turn our man's face a shade of red before Two Halves and Portland Arms! This isn't mindless fan requesting, it's basic discograpy. I for one would prefer these releases to more rarities from the 4-track porta studio. For me, that stuff is most fun when distributed via tapes. OK- this is my LAST post on this silly subject. All apologies to Robyn, Rhino, Ryko, the list, and whoever for my cranky disposition. Love, Jay ------------------------------ From: Hedblade@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 18:55:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Corrections and Specifics normal@grove.ufl.EDU made some valid points: << > "Old Pervert (Disco Version)" > From "I Wanna Destroy You" 7" single Isn't this on Gravy Deco?>> You're thinking of "Night Ride To Trinidad" and "Kingdom Of Love" which both get a disco treatment on Gravy Deco. <<> "The Asking Tree" > From the "Only The Stones Remain" 7" Different from version on Invisible Hits?>> Hmmmm, I know I didn't pull this one out of the air, but I can't place now why I was under the impression that this version is different. Anyone out there that can help me remember? <<> "The Pit Of Souls" (country version) > From Brenda's Iron Sledge 12". Midnight Music Dong 17 (1985)>> The "Country Version" should be taken off- my mistake. The version on Invisible Hitchcock is the country version; the one on the Brenda 12" is NOT a country version, and hasn't been released elsewhere. At least that's the info I've received- I don't own it, so I can't check. Anyone? Thanks for the correction!!! Sincerely, Jay ------------------------------ From: Hedblade@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 15:42:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: HELP!!! A while back I ordered this from a store in New York at which a list member works (sorry- forgot who you were). There were several in stock as reported at the time, but I never received mine. My order was phoned in and my credit card number was given. If the kind member of the list could contact me, I'd appreciate it! <<"Deck Of Cards" (performed by The Soft Boys) b/w "Flesh Number One" (performed by Robyn Hitchcock) From Bucketfull Of Brains magazine (1988) flexi.>> Sincerely, Jay ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 15:49:39 -0500 (EST) From: Rob Gronotte Subject: recent Robyn DATs? Looking to trade for DAT recordings of the most recent 2 tours, or possibly even some older DATs if anyone has some I don't. Have two DAT masters, one from a few weeks ago and one from last year, plus a few older things to trade. Rob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 18:47:14 -0500 From: mr bean jeans Subject: Re: 3/3/97 TREE STRUCTURE Ross Overbury wrote: >> Just curious -- what's to keep Sincere Management from collecting the >> list of names published and harassing some or all of the people on the >> tree? and terry writes: >Hmm...dunno. They've never done that before, though... actually, they have, though they were very selective about who they contacted. i was not one of the lucky ones, but at least one person who was let me know about it. they *are* aware of the robyn traders out here and are willing to take legal action. they appear to be concerned primarily with those whom them perceive to be inclined towards selling shows, but that's just my impression of what little i've heard. woj ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 19:04:36 -0500 From: mr bean jeans Subject: Re: Corrections and Specifics also sprach jay: >normal@grove.ufl.EDU made some valid points: > <<> "The Asking Tree" > > From the "Only The Stones Remain" 7" > > Different from version on Invisible Hits?>> > >Hmmmm, I know I didn't pull this one out of the air, but I can't place now >why I was under the impression that this version is different. Anyone out >there that can help me remember? i can't confirm this either way, as i do not have the single in question, but the old fegmaniax (fan club, not mailing list) discography lists these versions as different. can anyone out there with a copy of the single clarify? woj ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 19:20:12 -0500 (EST) From: Tracy Aileen Copeland Subject: Re: Rarities On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 Hedblade@aol.com wrote: > There are also PLENTY of items that were left off of the Ryko and Rhino > re-issues [including] > "The Pit Of Souls" (country version) > >From Brenda's Iron Sledge 12". Midnight Music Dong 17 (1985) > This is the EP with the comic strip adaptation of "Brenda's Iron Sledge" on the cover, right? To my ear the full-length "Pit of Souls" there isn't any different from the one on the Rhino _Fegmania!_ reissue. Am I missing something? Tracy "no I'm not missing *that*, I just had some" Copeland ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 19:21:30 -0500 From: Bret Subject: building a collection ok, for a friend's bday back home, I'm going to attempt to collect a copy of as many of these east coast show tapes as possible, all I'm sure of right now are the Carrboro, Nc and Atlanta, Ga shows, are there any more floating around out there (BTW I may have missed this if it was posted but did anyone get any of the Knitting Factory shows)....... much thanx!!!!!! -----Bret ------------------------------ From: tanter@econs.umass.edu Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 19:43:19 -0500 Subject: tape trees and copyright My understanding of the law is that as long as there is no money changing hands for the tapes, it's OK. (Paying for the cost of the tape and postage is OK, it's not OK when there's profit.) Marcy ------------------------------ From: Ross Overbury Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 20:13:50 EST Subject: Re: Tape trees and copyright Marcie said: > > My understanding of the law is that as long as there is no money changing hands > for the tapes, it's OK. (Paying for the cost of the tape and postage is OK, > it's not OK when there's profit.) Is that everywhere, or just in the US? -- Ross Overbury Montreal, Quebec, Canada email: rosso@cn.ca (ca as in Canada, not Cali) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 20:23:19 -0500 (EST) From: Bayard Subject: taping legality/ethics woj sez: [sincere...] > are willing to take legal action. they appear to be concerned primarily > with those whom them perceive to be inclined towards selling shows... as well they should, imho. last i heard though, RH himself had no problem with fans taping and trading. he even emailed me after the last gig at the old 9:30 so he could get a clone (his DAT tape ran out.) if RH gives permission for us to trade his unreleased stuff, i know of nothing his management co. would (or could) do to us (the different countries' laws could come into play, i suppose.) in my view, the ethics are more important, and I think trading is perfectly morally sound. (though it's not right to trade stuff that is, or will probably be, released.) those who sell this stuff, on the other hand, deserve to get hammered. =b ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 20:28:33 -0500 (EST) From: Bayard Subject: pit of souls tracy "five letters, starts with "t" sez: > > "The Pit Of Souls" (country version) > > >From Brenda's Iron Sledge 12". Midnight Music Dong 17 (1985) > > > This is the EP with the comic strip adaptation of "Brenda's Iron > Sledge" on the cover, right? To my ear the full-length "Pit of Souls" > there isn't any different from the one on the Rhino _Fegmania!_ reissue. > Am I missing something? the rarer one (rereleased on _feg!_) has four movements, a la "a saucerful of secrets" (sorta.) "terribly self indulgent," says robyn. as you know, the "country version" (invisible hitchcock) is so called b/c it was done in the sussex countryside, not b/c (as i thought might be the case before i heard it) it's the sequel to "ye sleeping knights of jesus" =b ------------------------------ From: Terrence M Marks Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 20:29:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Rarities (one more time) Hmm... 1) I could see being a bit embarassed about Portland Arms. It's kinda amateurish, but it's really fun. It's *NOT* as bad as the Radar stuff...(I don't have Radar, but I've got some other early Soft Boys that's unlistenable) 2) Two Halves? Why not sell it? I mean, it was the last SB's album, and it was good. (Admittedly, a third of it is now Underwater Moonlight bonus tracks)...I could PA+2/2 selling fairly well as a two-fer.... I'd buy it, personally. Terrence Marks Second Student in the Tendo Kasumi School of Philosophy -Seeking enlightenment through normalcy. normal@grove.ufl.edu ------------------------------ From: Terrence M Marks Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 20:32:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Corrections and Specifics > <<> "The Pit Of Souls" (country version) > > From Brenda's Iron Sledge 12". Midnight Music Dong 17 (1985)>> > > The "Country Version" should be taken off- my mistake. The version on > Invisible Hitchcock is the country version; the one on the Brenda 12" is NOT > a country version, and hasn't been released elsewhere. At least that's the > info I've received- I don't own it, so I can't check. Anyone? Thanks for > the correction!!! The non-country Pit of Souls is now on the Fegmaniax re-ish... Or is there a third version? Terry ------------------------------ From: mrd@world.std.com (Mitchell R Dickerman) Subject: Iron (Sledge) Horse show Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 20:37:48 -0500 (EST) Just thought I'd mention that I'll be the well-dressed guy with the sports equipment tie at the Iron Horse Wed. night. I'll be going right from work, hopefully be able to get a good table. Come say hello and chat if you see me. Re: rarities. I dunno, alternate versions don't really do that much for me, and I'm a pretty rabid collector. I think the stuff on _Invisible History_ pretty much covers the rest of the RELEASED stuff (not counting _Portland Arms_). As someone pointed out, there's still some cool stuff like "Hanging Out With Dad" and "Evil Guy" from the QE sessions as well as the A&M covers tape. I'd love to get the latter on CD. Mitch ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 20:35:51 -0500 (EST) From: Tracy Aileen Copeland Subject: Re: tape trees and copyright On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 tanter@econs.umass.edu wrote: > My understanding of the law is that as long as there is no money changing > hands for the tapes, it's OK. (Paying for the cost of the tape and postage > is OK, it's not OK when there's profit.) > According to the Copyright Myths FAQ that's regularly posted to news.announce.newusers, unauthorized copying is copyright violation whether or not money changes hands. The amount of money charged may affect the damages assessed by the court, but if the trading is found to have hurt the commercial value of the work - for example, if the Albert Hall tape tree had been competing with an official recording of the show - the damages can still be substantial. I know that Hitchcock has occasionally told people it's fine to tape. However, he may not have the right to do so. I'm a little out of my depth here, but depending on his contract with his management or Warner Brothers, he may have effectively sold his rights to the concert so that it's not his to give away. I know that this can happen with songs (remember McCartney trying to buy back the Beatles' songs some years ago?) but I don't know how it applies to individual performances. In general, people only get sued for copyright violation if they're making money off of it or somebody's getting hurt. Sincere has apparently been fairly friendly about taping and trading; the only person I know of who's gotten a warning letter was already on less than cordial terms with Sincere, and since they hadn't done any trading for years the warning may just have been meant as a continuation of an ongoing bitchy correspondence. So I doubt anyone's going to get busted for trading tapes (and if Sincere does decide to crack down they'll probably tell you to cease and desist and only take legal action if you refuse). However, this is because Sincere's being agreeable (or just can't be bothered), not because tape trading is legal. Tracy "I don't care who made it, the toast is MINE MINE MINE" Copeland ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 20:21:12 -0600 (CST) From: Truman Peyote Subject: Re: Rarities (one more time) On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Terrence M Marks wrote: > 2) Two Halves? Why not sell it? I mean, it was the last SB's album, and > it was good. (Admittedly, a third of it is now Underwater Moonlight bonus > tracks)...I could PA+2/2 selling fairly well as a two-fer.... > > I'd buy it, personally. This brings up another question. How well did the Rykos sell, and which of those was the best-selling? Just wondering if maybe this is a factor in the decision. If they didn't do that well that might explain why we aren't seeing more material. Ryko isn't quite like Rhino- they seem to be a bit less, shall we say, flamboyant- and seem to be a bit less likely to want to push what they may feel is a lost cause (I notice they haven't tried nearly as many gimmicks as Rhino, in fact, they've tried none that I know of- no posters, no samplers, nada). Also, given the availability of some these tracks elsewhere (as UW bonus tracks or on the '76-81 set) maybe they think only real diehards would buy a Two Halves re-release. Love on ya, Susan ------------------------------ From: tanter@econs.umass.edu Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 21:29:18 -0500 Subject: Re: Tape trees and copyright On Tue, 18 Mar 1997, Ross Overbury wrote: > Marcie said: > > > > My understanding of the law is that as long as there is no money changing hands > > for the tapes, it's OK. (Paying for the cost of the tape and postage is OK, > > it's not OK when there's profit.) > > Is that everywhere, or just in the US? > I don't know. I know that some copyright laws differ in the UK (and probably Canada, too) but I don't know why this would be different. It's personal use--if you buy a CD and tape it and don't broadcast it and make a profit, it's OK. They don't like you to make tapes for your friends, but if you don't make a profit, there's nothing they can do. Even with the tape trees, no one is making money off them so there's no violation of the law. Marcy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 21:39:01 -0500 (EST) From: mr bean jeans Subject: Re: tape trees and copyright also sprach Tracy Aileen Copeland : > According to the Copyright Myths FAQ that's regularly posted to >news.announce.newusers, unauthorized copying is copyright violation >whether or not money changes hands. put simply, copyright entitles its holder (not necessarily the creator of the work) control over its distribution. >The amount of money charged may affect the damages assessed by the court, perhaps. the potential revenues from sale of the work will be the overriding factor though. some trader may charge $3 per tape, but the $15 per album will be the rate-controlling step. (note that the fact that most traders and collectors are fans and would have bought a legitimate release anways is not a tenable defense.) >my depth here, but depending on his contract with his management or Warner >Brothers, he may have effectively sold his rights to the concert so that >it's not his to give away. i've always felt tempted to legally defend taping on the basis that the audience paid for the performance and is, thus, entitled to a personal copy under fair use. of course, i'm not a lawyer and wouldn't have the cojones to try it even if i was. ;) >However, this is >because Sincere's being agreeable (or just can't be bothered), not because >tape trading is legal. as i see it, this is the bottom line: tape trading is not a legal limboland, but a financial one. we don't get tagged because there isn't any incentive for copyright holders to go after traders since they are usually deep pocket-less. point-proving is the only benefit i can see from cracking down on the small players in this game. however, that said, i tend to agree with bayard in that i feel the ethical and legal questions around this are not dependent on each other. the legal issues have been tweaked to the copyright holder's benefit, and i don't see how swinging the pendulum back the other way a little is either harmful or unethical. woj ps. it's been a while since the last bootleg thread, huh? ;) n.p. wfmu ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- The End of this Fegmaniax Digest. *sob* .