From: owner-edheads-digest@efohio.com (edheads-digest) To: edheads-digest@smoe.org Subject: edheads-digest V5 #263 Reply-To: edheads@efohio.com Sender: owner-edheads-digest@efohio.com Errors-To: owner-edheads-digest@efohio.com Precedence: bulk edheads-digest Thursday, December 26 2002 Volume 05 : Number 263 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Robbie's show Friday ["just joe" ] RE: Robbie's show Friday ["Will Foy" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 23:35:41 +0000 From: "just joe" Subject: Re: Robbie's show Friday I'm not a taper, but I would love to have copies of some of the shows that are referred to on etree user pages. Do tapers accept anything else in trades besides other shows (e.g., computer equipment, lawn care services, etc.)? I know some will make a copy if you send them blank media and postage, but it seems they should get something in return for their labor. Thanks for info. Joe >From: >To: >Subject: Re: Robbie's show Friday >Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 11:37:12 -0600 > >did anyone tape it? And if yes who's got my copy? >http://db2.etree.org/twice _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 20:55:26 -0500 From: "Will Foy" Subject: RE: Robbie's show Friday Joe, Thanks for your question! As an old taper, I've fielded this one a lot... First, the technical answer: We simply cannot accept any payment for our "services"/"labor"/"work"/"fun"... It violates both the law, and the spirit of the taping and trading community. A portion of the US copyright law allows what we do, when the artists permit it. It's called "the doctrine of fair use." Fair Use allows us to do things like do photocopies of material we're writing papers on in college, or write a parody of Star Wars, or make backups of computer discs in case the original is damaged [ say, by a two-year old shoving it in the wrong drive door on a computer ]. Fair use also allows people like tapers, to record, in a strictly not for profit way, artists who allow themselves to be recorded. Enter EFO. Very open taping policy, but it involves us not taking money from their pockets. Similarly, we absolutely must trade items of like value, as to prevent any appearance of profit. Etree and similar sites all have policies dictated very clearly by the kingpins of trading cartel that seeks to oppose the rest of the RIAA's hegemony over recording artists and allowing fan taping. - just think, if people actually recorded say, [picking on a name, not on anyone's fandom] Britney Spears, and she sucked live, they might think that her music as a whole was overproduced pop garbage [ ok, this is actually how I feel, but anyway..], and stop buying her records. Most of the Big Music cartel's [ WEA, Bertelsmann, Vivendi Universal, Sony/Columbia...] money-making artists come from this pool of folks who record one hit album, then go away b/c they can't produce the level of quality, or in reality, aren't given the chance to do so b/c of record industry pressure of "give me more hits!!!"... Anyway, artists like Leftover Salmon, John Mayer, Dave Matthews Band, Phish, and the remnants of the Grateful Dead empire, who all support taping, all have clear rules about how it's done. Especially once digital or electronic mechanisms are used to distribute those recordings. Most websites having to do with Phish or the String Cheese Incident or the Dead must carry announcements somewhere on their site, in a prominent place, noting the compliance with that taping and trading policy. Phish's is clear that like items must trade hands. Blanks and postage to them must actually be blanks and return postage. I personally take a more liberal view, that someone could pay me the cash it would cost at present market value for the required blank media [ cd, dat tape, etc ], and return postage, but no more. That way, since I buy most of media in bulk, someone else could save a little bit as well. This applied more to DAT media when I traded on DAT predominantly, instead of the Shorten lossless compression format stuff on CD, which is very cheap for almost everyone [dat is too specialized for category killers like best buy to sell competitively to the niche players like cascade media or terrapin tapes]. These policies used to be informal, but due to folks REALLY abusing the system put in place by tapers and traders [I've seen several Vertical Horizon shows which I've taped, end up on ebay as horrible high generation copies b/c some trader somewhere down the line traded to someone who doesn't play the community's rules. ], many of these policies had to be put into writing. So, as a result of these policies, most tapers have grown accustomed and spent time in the community where a strict enforcement of b/p's is the rule. As I noted, many tapers, myself included, might be willing to trade items for like value, but it's usually something which is _demonstrably_ the same value. Ie, when I buy cd's [ rarely, b/c I'm so stocked up on blanks for the time being ], I usually buy a few hundred at a time, to keep them in stock for when I get going on DAT->SHN conversions, etc... Since I buy in bulk, the cost per item is lower. Let's say my cd's cost me 20 cents a piece when I get them in a batch of 1000. An EFO show usually requires two discs for audio or for a SHN copy [ not playable in a cd player, but guaranteeably bit-for-bit what the trader has... More info on www.etree.org for the curious. - and for the record, mp3 trading sucks for archival quality. The illustrious mr. bristol might have something to add about a lossless microsoft-based codec as well ]. So, that's 40 cents. Postage on 2 discs in a mailer with some kind of tyvek sleeve to protect them from scratches might be about 80 cents [ ballpark, check w/ the USPS ]. Total 1.20. Paypal and we're done... Makes things MUCH easier. On a larger trade, say 10 discs or so, it becomes a little more, and again paypal or a paper check or cash in the mail, and that's ok... With me. but again, the stated policies on this are clear. My personal policy violates the letter, but not the spirit of the "contract" that Phish and other artists use to allow taping. As a consequence of so many tapers starting with these "jam bands" and then moving around to find other artists like EFO, the community norms stick with them and they carry those policies, written or informal, to the newly formed or newly joined taping and trading community of the new artist. So, in short, the spirit of the trading community is often derived from the prime mover groups' policies, ie the most heavily taped, or the most heavily taped by new tapers learning the craft. However, there's another reason that "in-kind" trades as described in joe's email probably don't have a larger place in our trading world... Most of us are far flung fans. I happen to be in NC, specifically the Winston Salem area. I work in greensboring [ I mean greensboro ], and have considered the western/central portion of NC my home taping base. Yes, I travel for shows on occasion [ NYE w/ my friends in Everything @ the 9:30 club in DC for example ]. However, I'm not likely to go to DC to mow someone's yard in exchange for a few shows on cd. However... I guess in a locally formed trading group, there might be some inkind exchanges like this. For instance, I've had my brother-in-law's microphones for quite a while while my mike's were being repaired by the great folks at AKG. He's family, but whenever I finish doing a DAT->SHN or ->CD transfer process, I usually burn him a copy of bands I know he likes. This is more a process of doing favors for one another, and again, my personal feeling is that it does not violate the spirit of the trading community's rules... However, it's only likely to work in a locally formed trading circle. IE: Alice: I'm out of blank CD's until payday, can I do something else for you until then? Bill: Well Alice, I need some help painting my office this weekend, would you mind coming over? Alice: No, I'm free Saturday afternoon, why don't we get together for brunch and we can listen to the show after you've burned it for me. Actually, I think that's the kind of interaction that music is at least in part, all about. Helping forge the bonds between us. But, the actual "letter of the law" may contraindicate this... At least from highly restrictive taping policies. This is why I don't like them. Basically, it should say something like "We own this music, We poured our blood, guts, sweat, tears, time, and energy into making this work of art. Don't Steal it. We wouldn't steal your work, don't steal ours. We own this music, don't burn copies of the CD's we sell to support our ability to continue to make music for you. However, since we aren't hurt at all by your doing your own recording of our live performances, PLEASE come out and record us, give copies to your friends, or exchange them for other recordings of other performances. Just please don't sell it. It's really not yours to sell. Please don't profit from our blood, sweat, guts, tears, time and energy. Otherwise, just have fun and make communities!" And in essence, I think that sums up EFO's longstanding attitude towards tapers. We are free advertising for them, a way for potential fans to see what they're like live, come to a show [ paying the ticket fee, most of which goes to the band ], maybe buying a beer/beverage/food[ which supports the venue, and sometimes EFO by paying a portion of the bar proceeds to the band - some clubs do this, most don't... But at least it keeps the venue operating! ], and maybe a tshirt or hat or sticker or beer cozy...[which further supports the band, makes you look cool, and also is a bit of viral advertising!] Most bands whose live shows matter will at least consider allowing taping. This is what makes bands like EFO, Cowboy Mouth, Medeski Martin and Wood, and a whole slew of others allow taping, trading, and circulation of live material. Likewise, when EFO or others do a live album, taping isn't permitted b/c we'd be potentially taking away from their source material for a commercial release. Phish makes fans do this when they release a live album of a show [ usually all taken from a single date ] so they don't create a conflict of interest for the taper/traders. So... What DOES a taper, converter [ the person who might take a DAT or hifi master tape and make a cd out of it, a time consuming process, or work with a laptop-made recording ], or blanks and postage offering trader actually get for themselves out of the b/p process? My own reasons for taping are simple: I like having the recordings of performances I've attended, they're like my audio scrapbook album. They serve as touchstones of my life. I can tell you the exact date I met my late wife Carol b/c we met at an EFO show I taped. I can tell you the date that my car was totalled b/c I drove a rental car that night to a show in Charlotte for Agents of Good Roots. I remember the weekend I went with a friend to see Thanks To Gravity, Cowboy Mouth and Everything share a bill, and as a consequence, breaking down on the way back [ actually, we ran out of gas ] somewhre in the middle of nowhere, and getting a bit of car racing fuel from a delightful family of auto racing folks in martinsville , so we could refill. I remember these stories b/c I'm blessed with a good memory, and I also have the shows to help jog those memories. I also love to make sure that these musical one-timers can be preserved, almost like a historian. Those are my reasons for being a taper. Sharing the music, even with no profit very much benefits me in ways that profit never can. A converter probably has many of the same reasons. To ensure that others have a correctly transferred copy of the original recording, a bit-perfect, accurate representation of that which took place. A blanks and postage trader is probably interested in sharing the good time that he or she had with the music to someone who hasn't experienced that. Or, it's considered an act of good "karma." I don't personally believe in karma, but the concept of it, which is passing along a good work done for you, b/c chances are, somewhere along the way of joining the trading community, we've all had a blanks and postage offer, and been on the receiving end of it... We're just perpetuating the good work of someone else. We want to "pass it on." Love begets love. I know that's a long winded answer, but I hope it gives some insight into the inner workings of this wonderful group of folks I've come to know over the last 8 years and change, that is, the group of Tapers and Traders. It's easy to join, and once you're hooked, it's hard to leave the community. I can honestly say that as much fun for me as being a taper and trader is, and being able to have a wall full of recordings here in my home office and loads of memories. It's those memories, the friendships, and the community we've forged. Tapers who don't even know each other usually help "secure" the taping area from people who might spill beer, steal expensive equipment, etc. Traders often come to shows with a few freebie discs to give to other fans, just because it's a random act of kindness. I love being a part of that community, that brotherhood and sisterhood of people who really love music because it means something to us, and as a result, we want to share that love with others. Sure, it's an expensive hobby [ especially the being a taper part... My rig right now is probably valued at well... Let's say, over $4k. ], but it's a hobby. It's no one's responsibility but mine to pay for that hobby. No trader or taper should ever expect to be paid for their hobby. It's just flat out wrong. Anyway, if you're just starting a collection of live matieral, I highly recommend the services of http://db.etree.org to help you keep a list[when you trade, you want a list, so a) you'll know what you have, and b) so others will know what they don't have that you have that they want!]. It's REALLY easy to setup and I'm constantly adding setlists of shows I've taped and converted, so we'll know who has what show in circulation! Best of all, it's FREE! Although, I'm sure they'd welcome donations of bandwidth and other services to help them keep afloat. But otherwise, a totally free service from the folks at etree. I hope more folks will consider trading EFO stuff, and that we'll have more tapers join the fold. It can be easy to do with some minor pieces of equipment you may already have! I'm happy to field any questions as always, and otherwise, enjoy! Oh, and Dave B/Geoff, if you've read this far, lemme know where I can upload the rest of the neighborhood theatre 10.18.2002 2nd set/encore, as it's converted to bits now from the DAT. We can finish a complete seed of the show. Namaste, happy holidays, and be safe! -will Opportunities are a tricky crop, with tiny flowers that are difficult to see and even more difficult to harvest - Brian Herbert - -----Original Message----- From: owner-edheads@efohio.com [mailto:owner-edheads@efohio.com] On Behalf Of just joe Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 6:36 PM To: edheads@efohio.com Subject: Re: Robbie's show Friday I'm not a taper, but I would love to have copies of some of the shows that are referred to on etree user pages. Do tapers accept anything else in trades besides other shows (e.g., computer equipment, lawn care services, etc.)? I know some will make a copy if you send them blank media and postage, but it seems they should get something in return for their labor. Thanks for info. Joe >From: >To: >Subject: Re: Robbie's show Friday >Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 11:37:12 -0600 > >did anyone tape it? And if yes who's got my copy? >http://db2.etree.org/twice _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ End of edheads-digest V5 #263 *****************************