From: owner-edheads-digest@efohio.com (edheads-digest) To: edheads-digest@smoe.org Subject: edheads-digest V4 #207 Reply-To: edheads@efohio.com Sender: owner-edheads-digest@efohio.com Errors-To: owner-edheads-digest@efohio.com Precedence: bulk edheads-digest Tuesday, September 18 2001 Volume 04 : Number 207 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Into the Wild [rdfinch@mindspring.com] Re: September 11 ["steve roane" ] Re: September 11 ["steve roane" ] Re: OT: Observation ["steve roane" ] Boston Folk Festival ["Liam Sullivan" ] OT: Observation and Catch-up [Sarah Withanh ] Re: Into the Wild [Jess ] Re: OT: Observation [Jess ] Re: OT: Observation [Jess ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:06:59 -0400 From: rdfinch@mindspring.com Subject: Into the Wild Interesting. There's a song called "Walk Into the Wild" by Harrod and Funck which is also about Chris McCandless. Huh. If memory serves, I don't think it's an original song but I don't have the liner notes with me at work to confirm. Or maybe in the liner notes, they talk about the song being based on the book/article. I don't know. Looks like I definitely need to add this book to my list of things to read just out of interest from what it has inspired. And now I need to check those liner notes when I get home from work since they'll have more meaning now. - - rox ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:24:51 -0400 From: "steve roane" Subject: Re: September 11 Ok, I can't think of a good way to explain this but here it goes (and I'm at work, so I didn't have to time to proofread)I'm going to start at the beginning so I don't forget something: Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan which the US was against because we didn't want communism spreading. US decides to help rebels with intel and CIA training--a piece of this was bin Laden because he was rich and could recruit people. Bin Laden recruits Arabs from all over to join the Mujadeen (which I just misspelled) {Bin Laden spent the war hiding in the Sudan, but make no mistake he was still involved, even without being physically present). Soviets, who like the British years before them, found Afghanistan impossible to take over and left, but left a puppet government in Afghanistan. The US decided that since there were no more troops, why waste any more time there. This is when a bad situation got worse. The Afghan rebels didn't have a George Washington type leader--they were a bunch of fractured groups. Afghanistan descended into chaos--fighting both the Soviet puppet government and themselves. On the border is Pakistan, who until the last few years, has been a fairly consistent US ally. Both Pakistan and the rebels thought that since the US helped expel the Soviets troops, they would stay to help get rid of the puppet regime and help set up the new government, but once the last Soviet troop was gone, the US was like "Afghis--who?". Which of course pissed people off. So Pakistan is trying to figure what to do if Afghanistan doesn't stablize. To stabilize Afghanistan, Pakistan helped create and train the Taliban. They hoped that the Taliban would defeat the other groups, thereby stabilizing Afghanistan on Pakistan's terms. Which sort of happened, but the Taliban turned out to much more radicalized then orginally planned (in my belief). This in turn has led to yet another civil war currently being fought against the Taliban. The oppostion Northern Alliance controls roughly 10% of the country but is highly fractured, even more so now that the charasmatic leader, who had been keeping the factions together, was killed last week via suicide bomb. There has already been talk of the US arming the Northern Alliance which to me seems repeating the cycle that began in the 1980s. I tried to be as brief as possible, and obviously, this is not a complete history. But I stand by my belief that the failure of the Reagan adminstration to follow through on our initial involvement in the region: laid the foundation for the Taliban regime, a regime that if it didn't exist, the involvement of Bin Laden backed terrorism against American and Western interests could have been stopped; and, a reason that many in the region (including our allies) are suspicious of us. But in absolutely no way, shape, or form, think this is justification for what happened. Basically everyone in the region, except Iraq, want the Taliban gone. I think to get rid of them, US support is needed to out Middle Eastern allies; I question our ability to stick with our allies to do this and so do they--otherwise there wouldn't hesitation on their part to allow us to go in and wipe the Taliban off the slate. Steve PS--I failed to mention earlier and it is worth saying, that after the US left, and the chaos began to lift, Bin Laden left the Sudan to return to Afghanistan like a conquering hero. The interesting thing is that he was welcomed as such, and thus Afghanistan had their hero figure. >From: YourPalCM@aol.com >To: , >CC: >Subject: Re: September 11 >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:36:05 EDT > >Question though...(and I apologize in advance for my ignorance. Not that >it's an excuse, but I think I'm like most Americans in that I haven't paid >nearly as much attention to what has been going on outside of the U.S. as I >should have - until now, of course.)...When we aided Afghanistan in their >fight against the former Soviet Union, is it not true that Bin Laden was >not IN Afghanistan and the Taliban had not essentially taken control of the >Afghani government? If that is the case, that the Taliban was not in >Afghanistan during the Soviet conflict, isn't the outrage that we aided >Afghanistan in the past and now they are our enemy kind of off-base? > >Your Pal, >Chris Mal _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:45:33 -0400 From: "steve roane" Subject: Re: September 11 Slight correction from the long post. Bin Laden spent part of the 80s in the Sudan and part in Afghanistan. US troops in Saudi Arabia did set him off, but he also suffered a humilating blow before that--he offered the former Afghani rebels to Saudi during the Gulf War years and they basically said "No thanks, we'd rather have the Americans." My problem was just the opposite, I spent too much time during the 80's reading Time and Newsweek instead of studying Algebra. Algebra isn't any more fun the second time around. Steve >Hi > As far as I know Chris is correct. I believe that Bin Laden was >still in Saudi Arabia at the time we were supporting the Afghan resistance. >I recall hearing, on the news, that what pushed him over the edge was the >presence of American troops in Suadi Arabia during the gulf war conflict. >I cannot comment as to when the Talleban came into power but it was after >the war with the former Soviet Union. There are still forces in >Afghanistan that violently oppose the Talleban, and one can only hope that >that country will come under the leadership of more levels heads in the >years to come. I wish that I knew more about the political history of the >region. Unfortunately I was too busy learning algebra to pay attention to >foreign policy in the early 80s. Perhaps no amount of diplomacy would >subdue a "nut case" like Bin Laden. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:04:46 -0400 From: "steve roane" Subject: Re: OT: Observation It's kind of sad in a way, that in talking about our different opinions on music or whatever, that we see differences as an affront. We are all guilty at times--it's just human nature I guess. Steve >From: YourPalCM@aol.com >To: >Subject: OT: Observation >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:27:49 EDT > >What I find comical is that I'm on four different e-discussion lists for >musical groups and all of them are filling my mailbox with bickering over >how someone said something that some thought was uncalled for. I'm not >sure what my point is, I just find it curious. (For the record, this is >NOT a complaint about off-topic mail, I'm just making an observation.) > >Your Pal, >Chris Mal _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:07:50 -0400 From: "Liam Sullivan" Subject: Boston Folk Festival So...is anyone going to the Boston Folk Festival this weekend? EFO is playing the mainstage on Sunday. Unfortunately I might have to work on Sunday, but I'm signed up to volunteer on Saturday morning. I hope many Boston-area Edheads can make it to the festival. peace Liam _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:47:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Sarah Withanh Subject: OT: Observation and Catch-up - --- YourPalCM@aol.com wrote: > What I find comical is that I'm on four different > e-discussion lists for musical groups and all of > them are filling my mailbox with bickering over how > someone said something that some thought was > uncalled for. Gosh, e-mail discussion lists flooding people's mailboxes with bickering? Whod've thunk it? ;) Just think, 3-4 weeks ago this list was a ghost town in terms of messages... I've been away for 3 days and I come back to like 50! I'm just surprised there haven't been any "unsubscribe" messages yet. :) Meanwhile, I have had an Edhead-synchronous weekend. We spent 2 nights camping in Yosemite, and all I could think about was "that guy" I had heard about who died in his bus somewhere cold... guess who that turned out to be? Chris McCandless, which I learned thanks to the ever-intelligent edheads. Then, just about half those songs on that banned list we listened to on CD in the car. Guess I'm just super-detached or something that I could deal with all those "questionable lyrics." Weird, huh? Anyway, off to buy my tickets for Berkely and Santa Cruz now... thanks, sarah ===== *** sarah with an h *** sarahrobeson at yahoo dot com __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:41:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Jess Subject: Re: Into the Wild I can only say that the book is really well written, an interesting read, and you can learn much from it. But then I think .v.ryone should read everything. :) - -Jess ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Whiting Brown E LVCTVS SPES "And after the break, a shark catcher who caught a shark today. Stay put, you don't want to miss this." - -The LA 11:00 news anchor __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:42:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Jess Subject: Re: OT: Observation ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Whiting Brown E LVCTVS SPES "And after the break, a shark catcher who caught a shark today. Stay put, you don't want to miss this." - -The LA 11:00 news anchor __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:53:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Jess Subject: Re: OT: Observation *Pontification ahead, not intended to offend* With any deep shock/ trauma, people are going to have very different ways of reacting and expressing their emotions. That's sort of axiomatic I guess, but given the nature of this event, people are taking offence far more easily than I expected. The only statement that I can add to this discussion, on this issue, is that everyone (from our esteemed leader, to the people who don't even know that anything happened) should step back and think before reacting. Reacting to the tragedy, or to others reactions. I can't imagine that anyone on this list is conciously trying to offend or hurt, but we all need some time to process what is being presented to us in the media and in correspondences. i just ask that before you press the send button, reread what you've written and assume that the most insecure, upset, traumatized (by this event) person is on the list. Think about how they will react to your message. You, of course, have the right to say what you think, but please think of others. *HUGO* Jess, who is so so scared ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Whiting Brown E LVCTVS SPES "And after the break, a shark catcher who caught a shark today. Stay put, you don't want to miss this." - -The LA 11:00 news anchor __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ------------------------------ End of edheads-digest V4 #207 *****************************