From: owner-edheads-digest@efohio.com (edheads-digest) To: edheads-digest@smoe.org Subject: edheads-digest V4 #200 Reply-To: edheads@efohio.com Sender: owner-edheads-digest@efohio.com Errors-To: owner-edheads-digest@efohio.com Precedence: bulk edheads-digest Sunday, September 16 2001 Volume 04 : Number 200 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Addendum (WTC) ["AJ Putnam" ] Re: Addendum (WTC) ["Ron Rosen" ] Ahem. ["Nicole Ryan" ] Re: Addendum (WTC) ["AJ Putnam" ] Re: Ahem. ["Ron Rosen" ] Re: Ahem. ["Nicole Ryan" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 14:18:46 +0800 From: "AJ Putnam" Subject: Re: Addendum (WTC) - -----Original Message----- From: "Ron Rosen" Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 18:51:57 -0700 To: Subject: Re: Addendum (WTC) > > I'm not advocating beating up Moslems. Nothing of the sort. You don't know me. My > father marched in Selma, Alabama in 1965 and almost go himself killed. When I was 15 > I got to meet two heroes: James Baldwin and Martin Luther King. I have my > credentials and I've paid my dues. you're right that i dont know you, but i dont think that really matters here. i think we have all paid our dues in various ways.. i am a lesbian. there are dues i must pay for that, too. i'm not sure if your comments are meant to set you apart somehow, but i think credentials, as you put it, are irrelevant in that what is happening affects all of us, not just people who have paid any sort of "dues".... > > My post was changing the subject. What I'm saying is that you need to understand > that what happened on Tuesday is an attack on your way of life. Not by > Moslem-Americans, but by fundamentalist Moslem fanatics. You need to understand that > the major focus of your energy in the years to come will be how to preserve your > culture and your country. Because the country you love, the country that accepts > people of all cultures, the country that lets you worry about whether you will get a > decent seat at the next EFO show, is going to be a very different place unless we > resolve to figure out how to locate, wipe out, and continually fight the very real > war that was dropped on our doorstep on Tuesday. i quite well understand that tuesday changed my way of life. i really dont need you to tell me that. i didnt leave the house on wednesday. whenever i heard sirens on thurs, i was freaked (i live in boston). i realized i was experiencing some PTSD based on an armed robbery i went through years ago. that robbery forever changed me, and this event did too. as for preserving my culture and country, i stand by what i said before in accepting my neighbors who are of arabic descent. i think you and i simply differ on what we consider to be "side issues". for me, i cant relegate the treatment of arab-americans or arab immigrants as a side issue. that phrase makes me feel like it is made secondary. part of preserving this country, for me, is making sure no citizen is made secondary based on some part of their heritage. i'm becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the war language that is on the rise. i agree that action needs to be taken to stop terrorists, not just now but in a way that "ends" terrorism. i think, though, that it is also naive to think any war campaign will end terrorism permanently. we have to take steps aside from war to reduce the attraction of terrorism to fanatics. we need to wage peace. as a nation, we need to examine our policies and how they affect other parts of the world so we can become less of an enemy to others. no matter what, there will always be extremists. we have them in our own country among our own citizens. i believe that part of what is important now is not just to answer those who attacked us with action, but to continue to work on tolerance, acceptance, etc within ourselves and in how we approach the world. when people like jerry falwell attempt to say that pagans, gays and lesbians, and feminists are partly responsible for what happened, i v! iew that as a terrorist campaign against me, within my own country. i am all of those things and i am american. if falwell and his ilk had his way and imposed his morals on everyone, regardless of the constitutional separation of church and state, people like me would become definite second class citizens, or worse. ending terrorism ultimately is far more than waging battles on foreign lands. it is also about really learning tolerance and acceptance right here at home. that, to me, is definitely not a side issue. amy p. - -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 06:22:46 -0700 From: "Ron Rosen" Subject: Re: Addendum (WTC) > you're right that i dont know you, but i dont think that really matters here. i think we have all paid our dues in various ways.. i am a lesbian. there are dues i must pay for that, too. i'm not sure if your comments are meant to set you apart somehow, but i think credentials, as you put it, are irrelevant in that what is happening affects all of us, not just people who have paid any sort of "dues".... > My comments were intended for no other purpose than as a quick way of trying to get it across, in demonstrable fashion, that I don't come from a place of bigotry and that my comments should not be seen in that light. I'm sorry that you saw them as an attempt to somehow say, "I'm better than you." > i quite well understand that tuesday changed my way of life. i really dont need you to tell me that... i think you and i simply differ on what we consider to be "side issues". for me, i cant relegate the treatment of arab-americans or arab immigrants as a side issue. that phrase makes me feel like it is made secondary. part of preserving this country, for me, is making sure no citizen is made secondary based on some part of their heritage. > That is definitely what America stands for, and perhaps the term side issue did not do it justice as I reached for a quick way to make a point. My point is that there are fanatical people who want to destroy this country and its way of life who showed on Tuesday just the beginning of how far they are willing to go, and that they have the power to inflict untold damage. If these people are not stopped and systematically destroyed, we won't have a place where the rights and treatment of minorities can be protected. > i'm becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the war language that is on the rise. i agree that action needs to be taken to stop terrorists, not just now but in a way that "ends" terrorism. i think, though, that it is also naive to think any war campaign will end terrorism permanently. we have to take steps aside from war to reduce the attraction of terrorism to fanatics. we need to wage peace. as a nation, we need to examine our policies and how they affect other parts of the world so we can become less of an enemy to others > While I wish I could agree with you, it's becoming very clear that radical Moslem fundamentalism is not something that can be addressed by "being less an enemy to others." These people hate us just for what we are (in their eyes) - a decadent, over-sexual, evil, culture that is not Moslem and does not subscribe to the values they would like to impose - which are the values of the Taliban in Afghanistan. As an analogy, if Jerry Fallwell waged a campaign to wipe all gays and lesbians off the face of the earth, would you be saying, "we gays and lesbians need to examine our policies so we can be come less of a threat to him?" No. And my point is that radical Moslem fundamentalism wants to wipe Western Culture off the face of the earth. It's not about our policies. Although I acknowledge that we need execute our policies carefully so as not to drive more an more Moslems, most of whom are not radical fundamentalists, into their camp. > iew that as a terrorist campaign against me, within my own country. i am all of those things and i am american. if falwell and his ilk had his way and imposed his morals on everyone, regardless of the constitutional separation of church and state, people like me would become definite second class citizens, or worse. ending terrorism ultimately is far more than waging battles on foreign lands. it is also about really learning tolerance and acceptance right here at home. > Fallwell is definitely an SOB, and would be just as dangerous in power as some of the radical Moslem regimes. They want to return the world to how it was a long time ago. Fallwell types have waged actual terrorist campaigns against abortion clinics. On the other hand, just for the sake of intellectual clarity and honesty in the use of language, I think it's best to refer to Fallwell's rhetoric as something other than "terrorism", which is the random infliction of actual violence. This is a good discussion, Amy, and all others who are participating. I hope it is seen as an honest sharing of views and not an attempt to put anyond down. That is not my intent. My concern, which is probably different from many people on a folk list who are somewhat younger than I, is that we are in for a long, protracted, bitter struggle, the likes of which we haven't seen since World War II. This is not "war talk." It's an attempt to honestly evaluate a new situation. The last 20 years of luxury and technology have enabled us to focus on many issues, that although important, and seemed very important at the time, will suddenly become less important when the very nation and culture are under attack. What I'm hoping is that, as a people, we unite in defending the nation and culture so that we can defeat this threat. My concern is that some of us have become to accustomed to seeing the bad things our govenment and country does, which is a luxury of peace and prosperity. Whether we like it or not, we are at war and we need to figure out how to proceed as a country. Try to understand, that no matter what you think of George W., he really loves this country and he wants desparately to preserve it. And although he's not a friend of gay rights and many of the other causes you fight for, he wants to defend you from people who would execute you on the spot. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 00:08:30 +0800 From: "Nicole Ryan" Subject: Ahem. I am sticking my neck out here. But I fell that sitting here arguing semantics, politics, and by extension anger and the need for revenge is actually quite futile right now. Think of your neighbors. Keep an eye on them. Make sure they are okay. Talk to your families, tell them you love them. Rejoice in the fact that you are alive. If not for yourself, then do it for those who can do it no more. If you still have this burning energy, turn it towards helping raise funds and supplies for the people of NYC and DC right now, and for the families of those who lost loved ones in PA as well. Make something good result from this tragedy, not more bickering and infighting-- Because when we begin that, we begin to weaken, and the forces against us begin to win. Peace to all of you, Nicole - -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 01:00:54 +0800 From: "AJ Putnam" Subject: Re: Addendum (WTC) (side note to nicole et al... i dont mean to protract things, but i think this is an example of healthy discussion. thhere are points i want to address here, and then if you wish, i will keep silent.) - -----Original Message----- From: "Ron Rosen" Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 06:22:46 -0700 To: Subject: Re: Addendum (WTC) > > While I wish I could agree with you, it's becoming very clear that radical Moslem > fundamentalism is not something that can be addressed by "being less an enemy to > others." These people hate us just for what we are (in their eyes) - a decadent, > over-sexual, evil, culture that is not Moslem and does not subscribe to the values > they would like to impose - which are the values of the Taliban in Afghanistan. they are also only one faction of terrorists, if you will. i think that re-examining our nation's policies and approaches is only a part of what is needed. i dont believe it is the only thing, nor do i think it will solve everything. i didnt mean to give that impression. once we "deal with" the extremist muslims, there will be other groups to take their place. part of mediating the threats, if you will, comes with not only force but reason. i dont have the answer. i dont know what it will take. but i do firmly believe it takes more than force. we are already perceived by many as the world's bully, and bullies always have someone who wants to stand up to them. As > an analogy, if Jerry Fallwell waged a campaign to wipe all gays and lesbians off the > face of the earth, would you be saying, "we gays and lesbians need to examine our > policies so we can be come less of a threat to him?" No. And my point is that > radical Moslem fundamentalism wants to wipe Western Culture off the face of the > earth. It's not about our policies. Although I acknowledge that we need execute our > policies carefully so as not to drive more an more Moslems, most of whom are not > radical fundamentalists, into their camp. > if falwell waged a more forceful anti gay campaign (he's long been waging a campaign already), i would believe that gays and lesbians will continue to need to come out and be seen and heard. this is already happening. more and more people re-examine their anti-gay sentiments when they hear of people in their own familes, work places, churches, etc. while i dont think reasoning with falwell himself will help, helping others who arent yet in his camp to see we arent the evil beings he wants us to be will help keep people *from* his camp. on this point, based on your last sentence, you and i quite agree. that's part of waging peace.. coming to some sort of common understanding with people who may see us as opposite them. On > the other hand, just for the sake of intellectual clarity and honesty in the use of > language, I think it's best to refer to Fallwell's rhetoric as something other than > "terrorism", which is the random infliction of actual violence. here we simply have a divergence of view. when someone's language/rhetoric compels someone else to act ou aginst someone with an act of violence, that is terrorism. the very word is defined in my oxford dictionary as the use of violence and intimidation. when a gay person (or anyone else perceived as a "bad other") is attacked for simply being, that is terrorism, IMO. a gay person doesnt generally know when an attack is coming, anymore than the poor souls in NY and DC did. bascially it's largely a result of inflammatory rhetoric. What I'm hoping is that, as a > people, we unite in defending the nation and culture so that we can defeat this > threat. My concern is that some of us have become to accustomed to seeing the bad > things our govenment and country does, which is a luxury of peace and prosperity. whil i agree with this for the most part, my own qualification to it is that, again, this means we have to still remain aware of our neighbors. we cannot be singularly focused on the "other" outside of us who has been attacking us. defending our nation and culture must include continuing to work against hate crime and intolerance wihtin our own borders. we cannot be a truly united nation if we are "allowed" to attack each other. Try to understand, that no matter what you think of George W., he really > loves this country and he wants desparately to preserve it. And although he's not a > friend of gay rights and many of the other causes you fight for, he wants to defend > you from people who would execute you on the spot. i wish i could take this on faith, but i'm a bit too cynical for that. that's my own issue. i agree we need to stand together with the president while this crisis/conflict/whatever you want to call it is upon us. since there are people *in* this country who would love to execute the likes of me on the spot... well, that's not a discusson for this time or place. amy > - -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 10:45:10 -0700 From: "Ron Rosen" Subject: Re: Ahem. I am going to speak out here. Loudly and clearly. Never on the internet have I ever told anyone what to discuss or not to discuss, when or when not to discuss it, or what better things they could, in my opinion be doing. I think we had a rather good discussion here, and I will not be deterred by anyone who doesn't like what I have to say. You have a delete button and a kill file if you don't like something. We are not in the same room disturbing each other's space. I am miffed at the sort of message that you sent, Nicole. I am disturbed by the place it comes from. You come from a group that thinks the world should be exactly the way you want it to - no anger, no conflict, no argument. "Don't say anything that might offend anyone, even at the expense of the truth." I believe this position is dishonest, because you are not free from conflict and anger, you just want to pretend to yourselves that you are. You are not free from prejudice and bigotry either, although you pretend to yourselves that you are. You advocate politically correct speech as a way of fostering the illusion that everything is lovely. Speech control and thought control are valid to you, as long as it serves your "we a just wonderful" agenda. Frankly, it's all a dishonest and very destructive of the kind of values that make America great. Ever hear of freedom of speech? >Make something good result from this tragedy, not more bickering and infighting-- Because when we >begin that, we begin to weaken, and the forces against us begin to win. The greatest thing that will weaken us in the face of the forces against us is people who refuse to acknowledge conflict, to discuss, to argue, who live in a world where there is no such thing as legitimate striking back when you are attacked, who believe that appeasement of those who want to destroy you is the way to go. Hopefully, you are a small minority, or we are really in trouble. > Peace to all of you, Yeah, right! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 02:04:18 +0800 From: "Nicole Ryan" Subject: Re: Ahem. Thank you, Ron. Thank you SO much for telling me who and what I am. I never once told a single soul how to think, but I for one do not find bitterness and hatred to be productive. You want to see what hate and anger produce? Turn on the news. Look into the faces of the husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, children and relatives of those who died on Tuesday. Look into the pile of rubble that was the WTC. THAT is what hate and fear beget. I am not at ALL advocating that everything is lovely. You'd have to be a dunce to do so. But I am also not going to stand by and let this list of perfectly capable people dissolve into a bunch of fighting when it could be doing so much more. Maybe before you reply next you should take a deep breath and add some clear and level thought to your email. Remember, you reap what you sow. My choices were laid out before me on Tuesday when I had to spend the day on the phones trying to get a hold of loved ones for people so they could have the peice of mind to know that they were okay. I had to tell people their loved ones were confirmed dead. I am doing something good with my anger. Tell me, what are you doing with yours? - -----Original Message----- From: "Ron Rosen" Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 10:45:10 -0700 To: Subject: Re: Ahem. > I am going to speak out here. Loudly and clearly. Never on the internet have I ever > told anyone what to discuss or not to discuss, when or when not to discuss it, or > what better things they could, in my opinion be doing. I think we had a rather good > discussion here, and I will not be deterred by anyone who doesn't like what I have to > say. You have a delete button and a kill file if you don't like something. We are > not in the same room disturbing each other's space. > > I am miffed at the sort of message that you sent, Nicole. I am disturbed by the > place it comes from. You come from a group that thinks the world should be exactly > the way you want it to - no anger, no conflict, no argument. "Don't say anything > that might offend anyone, even at the expense of the truth." I believe this position > is dishonest, because you are not free from conflict and anger, you just want to > pretend to yourselves that you are. You are not free from prejudice and bigotry > either, although you pretend to yourselves that you are. You advocate politically > correct speech as a way of fostering the illusion that everything is lovely. Speech > control and thought control are valid to you, as long as it serves your "we a just > wonderful" agenda. Frankly, it's all a dishonest and very destructive of the kind of > values that make America great. Ever hear of freedom of speech? > > >Make something good result from this tragedy, not more bickering and infighting-- > Because when we >begin that, we begin to weaken, and the forces against us begin to > win. > > The greatest thing that will weaken us in the face of the forces against us is people > who refuse to acknowledge conflict, to discuss, to argue, who live in a world where > there is no such thing as legitimate striking back when you are attacked, who believe > that appeasement of those who want to destroy you is the way to go. Hopefully, you > are a small minority, or we are really in trouble. > > > Peace to all of you, > > Yeah, right! > - -- ------------------------------ End of edheads-digest V4 #200 *****************************