From: owner-edheads-digest@efohio.com (edheads-digest) To: edheads-digest@smoe.org Subject: edheads-digest V1 #41 Reply-To: edheads@efohio.com Sender: owner-edheads-digest@efohio.com Errors-To: owner-edheads-digest@efohio.com Precedence: bulk edheads-digest Saturday, August 29 1998 Volume 01 : Number 041 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: EFO:The Mystery of Taping- Explained! [jreiser@ecoutez.com (Jason A. ] speaking of taping.... ["Amy J. Putnam" ] Re: EFO:The Mystery of Taping- Explained! [Nicole Carlson PS: Andrew had some nice comments on taping. Some VCR's are digital and thus >reproduce digital quality sound. I would recommend anything that says Hi-Fi, >but as with everything, you get what you pay for. The $100 VCR will not be as >nice as the $500 VCR, but unless you have a really crappy VCR, I wouldn't go >spending a lot of money on any kind of new deck unless you are an experienced >and hopelessly addicted taper. In general, I wouldn't recommend that any serious taper run out and buy a VCR to tape shows. The VCR is something that most of us already have, and it's a great way to get started. If you're thinking of spending $500 on a VCR to tape shows, look at DAT or MD instead. However, even the midline $200 range VCRs sound pretty damn good. The better units tend to give far better video performance, but the audio does not vary much. And of course you'll get more features with a more expensive VCR - few of which will have anything to do with recording a live show. Just look for that HiFi label - it actually means a lot on VCRs. > As for tape speed...there is always loss of quality when you reduce the >size of the recording medium. A good computer comparison would be the >difference between tape speeds is the same as the difference between regular >and double density diskettes. Actually, the comparison doesn't really work in the digital domain. If I copy a 200k file to a regular or double density diskette, or countless other media storage devices, they'll all recall the data bit-for-bit identical to the original if working as designed. The 100th generation copy will be identical to the first. Imagine if it weren't - suddenly there would be information missing from this very e-ma In the analog domain, tape speed has always been a hot topic - and for good reason. I haven't played with analog in a while, so forgive any mistakes (can't find the one text I was looking for either.) With reel-to-reel for example, higher tape speeds were always used for a higher quality recording. This allowed for a better frequency response on the top end (by using a narrower head gap) and lead to better S/N ratio. Okay, I've confused everyone now. The point was just that, in analog, you got better quality by recording more non-redundant data per minute. The waveform you wrote to tape would therefore be a more accurate representation of the sound. In the digital world, yes - if you can actually write more data per minute, you would get a higher quality recording. However, if you just write the same data with redundancy, you do not gain quality. You *may* gain reliability. Look at this: 1010101 and this: 111000111000111000111 If you read every third piece of data on the second example, you have exactly the first. The data isn't any different, it's just redundant. My understanding of the two audio tracks on VHS is that the quality is not altered by changing speed. The video tracks clearly are. >In the digital domain, there's not much difference, but there IS a difference. If there were a difference, we'd be in very serious trouble. If I have an A>D converter that encodes a 48kHz digital signal, and I then upsample that output to 96kHz, I would write exactly twice as much data, and the two samples would sound absolutely identical. If, instead, I actually did the A>D conversion at 96kHz, *then* I would benefit from this higher sampling rate by writing more non-redundant data. This would be a more accurate representation of the original analog waveform. Think of the VCR as a device that's writing all the audio data it gets even when using the slow (EP) mode. By speeding it up, you'll gain nothing in on the audio side. Sorry, I'm not that familiar with the exact workings of the VCR technology, save for the fact that they use a heilical scan drum not unlike DAT. > Also, there are very few soundboards which have RCA outputs. If it has >them, it is probably a piece of ____. If you have a choice between RCA and 1/4" outputs, it's not necessarily an easy choice. Yes, the 1/4" output is likely to be the better sounding one, mainly because it's quite possible that the RCA outputs are stepped down to -10dB reference. Basically there are TWO separate line level standards: +4dB for pro gear, and -10dB for consumer gear. Most 1/4" and XLR outputs will be +4 or switchable. Most RCA will be -10dB or switchable. So while the RCA signal might be going through a pad (to reduce its level to the standard that your VCR will be happy with) it's likely the one that will give a more acceptable level. If Bob or CB are giving you a feed, they'll probably do their best to give you what you'll need. Many boards can be set to consumer levels, or the output you get might actually have its own level adjustment dial. Just because a board has a pair of RCA tape outputs certainly doesn't make it garbage. There are many truly excellent soundboards out there that have a tape loop. Sure, you'll probably get better sound quality from a 1/4" or XLR main out, or an AUX send if its available and the soundperson will go to the trouble for you, but the RCA might be the one that gets you the better levels for consumer gear. If you've got someone like Bob or CB giving you a patch, take their advice. >Bob and I try to have the proper >adaptors for you guys, but again, we are not perfect and many soundpeople are >not as taper friendly as we are. If you try this with some bands, you might >find that they don't have time to find the adaptor you need to tape. Good advice, indeed! Most soundpeople really don't want to deal with tapers. It's just too much of a pain in the butt while they're trying to work out issues with a monitor, mic, cable, whatever... Be patient, prepared and polite, and it'll take you a long way! >So it's >a good idea to always have them with you. XLR outs are rare, but they do pop >up now and again. It's a good thing to have particularly if there are several tapers already using other available outputs. Or perhaps the club is already using the RCA and 1/4" outputs and the only thing available is XLR. You can also get XLR>RCA adapters from most music supply places. For really serious soundboard taping, there are people out there running their own portable mixers (Mackie 1202s, Tascam M08s, Spirit Folios, Sampson Mixpads, etc) to combine the soundboard signal with a pair of microphones for a "matrix" mix. Some have also gone so far as to take individual channels (vocals, guitars, whatever...) from unused inserts on the soundboard and feed them to the portable mixer. Then you can make a mix better suited to tape than the house sound mix. 'course, it's also a huge pain in the ass, but sometimes its worth the effort. Thanks to CB & Bob for all they're doing for us tapers!! See ya, Jason jreiser@ecoutez.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 06:11:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Amy J. Putnam" Subject: speaking of taping.... i'm not a taper but i am wondering if anyone has a tape of the EFO show in boston on 21 march 1998? i dont have any EFO to trade, but i do have other artists (indigo girls, mary chapin carpenter, shawn colvin, some others) and some high quality black and white photos of the band (including from that night). thanks in advance.... _________ amy p. \ / Who holds your hand pegasus@crl.com \ / When you're alone monk@world.std.com \ / the original photo monk \ / --Patty Larkin http://www.crl.com/~pegasus ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 18:48:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Nicole Carlson Subject: Re: EFO:The Mystery of Taping- Explained! On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 EFOcrew@aol.com wrote: > Nicole, might I say it was very nice to meet you and all of the other CA and > Utah edheads last week. The band and I had a lot of fun. Hopefully we'll > get to do more recreational type activities next time. As for your request > for taping needs, here goes... Hi Carolyn! Likewise, it was great meeting you (Bob was the soundman last tour) and the rest of the gang. Hurry back... Re: taping Thank you all so much for your input on taping! I agree with CB that it'd be nice to see this info on the website. I probably already have many of the necessary ingredients (gonna look through the ol' cable collection this weekend), though I'll have to mosey on down to Radio Shack and get some adaptors. - --nicole twn p.s. Hi Jason! :) I didn't know you were on this list. ------------------------------ End of edheads-digest V1 #41 ****************************