From: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org (eda-thoughts-digest) To: eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Subject: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #181 Reply-To: eda-thoughts@smoe.org Sender: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk eda-thoughts-digest Tuesday, May 2 2000 Volume 03 : Number 181 * If you ever wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * eda-thoughts-digest-request@smoe.org with ONLY * the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #xxx or the like gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. Today's Subjects: ----------------- ET: Re:who's to say I have to follow that societies rules? [RedWoodenBe] ET: Sara' Song [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] ET: moral words [Katherine Alexandra ] ET: morals ["stephen" ] ET: pale mornings [Mango Ara ] Re: ET: Re:who's to say I have to follow that societies rules? ["Seth D. ] Re: ET: morals ["Seth D. Fulmer" ] ET: bedtime sessions v.1 [genben@usa.net] ET: sunglasses [genben@usa.net] ET: reflection [genben@usa.net] ET: Wow...it's certainly been a while... [Oblivia15@aol.com] ET: my sister's tears [Katherine Alexandra ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 00:15:57 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: ET: Re:who's to say I have to follow that societies rules? In a message dated 5/1/00 9:02:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time, owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org writes: << I believe what was meant by everyone makes up their own morality is just that. So Joe, you're correct in that whatever you decide is moral, is moral in your world, but you're still responsible for the morality in the society in which you live. The morality of a society is the consensus of the moralities of each and every participant in the society. If a large enough majority of the society believes canibalism to be "moral", and you enter into that society, well I'm sorry but you're out of luck. If you were on your own island and someone entered into your "society", then they have to follow your society's morals, which would be exactly the same as your own personal morals. If there is no consensus of morality in a society, then anarchy exists. I do believe it is wrong to place a "holier than thou" attitude, but It is not my place to tell that to anyone, or I am no better than they are. I will tell people if I agree or disagree with what they do, but I will not tell people what they're doing is wrong unless it hurts me(directly or indirectly). Take care and Have a Great Day! >> Well who's to say I have to follow that societies rules? That seems like a violation of my right to choose, if you ask me. no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 00:29:57 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: ET: Sara' Song Alright, these are the lyrics to a song I wrote about a girl named Sara who died from the use of coke. Half of it is me talking, half of it is her family talking, and something to that effect, I think. When her parents, who are really great people, went to ask this ministry service (I guess it was like a couple of preachers or something) to conduct her funeral, they told them that she was without a doubt it hell because of her drug use, and that a funeral was out of the question. This was such a horrible, as well as false, way to treat a family. In addition, Sara's not in hell, I know she's not. Anyways, this isn't really the best of lyrics, but hey, might as well share it. I'll post some of my better stuff sometime. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sara's Song The programs ate her alive Before a funeral for this baby They insist upon their slime And so the schools stay in slavery On a summer afternoon She is still right there with you Moving across your porch She blows the flowers down To let you know she's still around Don't buy into the preacher You ran away too fast And never got back home The questions you could ask Would leave a deafning drone In the room It's always you Nothing else would ever do They never should have come Lay your hands upon my face And let us reach across the distance Bob Jones may condemn your soul But he can't take the fire within it I am telling you That nothing they could ever do would Make me believe your daughter's in hell She was the kind of light Burning up this endless night And we are left to dwell The way they beat her down After she had gone Leave her family in peace To love her even more As they always would We see her face Up among the sky's white grace Take your arrogance and go So you know the answers To all of the questions But how can you play into these fields of dreams When these are sour times? These are sour times I am telling you That nothing they could ever do would Make me believe Sara's in hell This is a new day And I feel her with me everyway She's smiling like a child Oh, Sara, I love you no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 22:31:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Katherine Alexandra Subject: ET: moral words "we have two kinds of morality side by side: one which we preach but do not practice and the other which we practice but seldom preach" betrand russell "morality is the theory that every human act must be either right or wrong and that 99% of them are wrong" h.l. mencken personally i believe that we choose, invent, create our own morals and we live by that code. some people choose the bible, others do not. i dont believe this world is black and white, there is a grey area in between. morality is complex. for instance, sex before marriage, i believe there is nothing wrong with sex before marriage. although i believe that, personaly i would never sleep with someone without truly caring about the person. this is for my own self-respect. i understand why someone would want to wait until marriage, but i dont think that works for everyone. i have friends that will drink but wont smoke pot. or will smoke pot but not cigerettes....they say that something is against their "morals", like i said there is a grey area in all of this. if you drink, you are impairing your though process, you are doing the same with pot. some people say that pot is horrible and immoral bc it is against the law...that is really the only reason....so they are allowing the country to decide their morals. bc if you really are anti-pot then you would also be anti-alchol or anti-caffine bc these are other substances that affect you in such away that is mood altering. about sex, some people do "everything but" and consider themselves virgin. but the scientifc def. yes they are, but personally i think they know...there is that grey area inbetween where you have to decide. your parents can't for you, your gov't, your culture, your religion, you have to look at everything and use critical thinking and consider if for yourself. just my thoughts. kat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 01:42:13 -0400 From: "stephen" Subject: ET: morals maybe morality is the wrong word to use... how about common sense.. how about the lack of stupidity if you base your morals more on what makes sense then your life and the others around you will benefit.. drinking alcohol is wrong.. period.. there is no reason people should drink except to cover up their feelings or give them something they don't know how to produce on their own.. like being social.. it destroys everything it touches to some extent.. but i know people that drink and i don't preach to them about it.. i just don't drink.. if they do that's fine.. 2+2=4 always. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 23:42:33 -0700 From: Mango Ara Subject: ET: pale mornings i just want to say, ben, you are a god. those poems were absolutely...beautiful. simple, and beautiful. i think they should go in our book. ~samara ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 09:17:08 -0400 From: "Seth D. Fulmer" Subject: Re: ET: Re:who's to say I have to follow that societies rules? Joe(and whoever else may be interested), You don't have to follow society's rules. It's not like some lightning bolt or force from God is going to strike you down. However, if you wish to keep your ass out of prison or from being executed or assassinated, you will follow society's rules. I am using Cuba only because it works so well here. I may not agree with Cuba's laws and/or System of government, but if I so choose to be within their borders, I must follow their morality code. Sure, the U.S. would probably bail me out, but in my mind, that is wrong. Plus, If you don't agree with society's rules, change them. You're part of society. The morality of a society are contained within the laws, norms(something which is an accepted practice in society and is looked down if not followed, e.g.: taking your hat off when pleding allegiance to the flag), fads, mores(pronounced "moray" and means a rule that one might be looked down upon if broken, but not like killed necessarily...e.g.: stealing), and taboo(a societal rule that if broken could mean death or banishment) of that society. Elect someone to office to change the laws. Write papers in the public eye that ethically prove the incorrectness of a taboo, norm, more, or fad. Or if you don't want to do that and still feel so strongly against the rules of the society, move to some land yet ungoverned by anybody on this planet(if you can still find one) and whatever you choose is law, morals, taboo, etc. Note I'm not telling you to do this...just saying it's an option if you're so against society's rules. Take cares and Have a Great Day everybody! :o) Seth D. Fulmer mailto:kaosking@voicenet.com ==================================== At 12:15 AM 5/2/00 EDT, RedWoodenBeads@aol.com wrote: >Well who's to say I have to follow that societies rules? That seems like a >violation of my right to choose, if you ask me. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 09:59:38 -0400 From: "Seth D. Fulmer" Subject: Re: ET: morals Hey Stephen, At 01:42 AM 5/2/00 -0400, stephen wrote: >maybe morality is the wrong word to use... how about common sense.. > >how about the lack of stupidity > >if you base your morals more on what makes sense then your life and the >others around you will benefit.. Ok, I agree up until this point. What makes sense will make your life better. However Common Sense is not so "common". What makes sense to one person does not seem natural to another. It may seem common sense to put your seat belt on before you drive a car. How many people don't though. And I can also make an argument against putting your seat belt on in the fact that while it may save lives, why should I care about my life? Note I do...but I have taken that stance on things in the past. I'm just saying...common sense is not so "common" but what makes sense to a person specifically is usually what ends up their morals as you said :) >drinking alcohol is wrong.. period.. >there is no reason people should drink except to cover up their feelings or >give them something they don't know how to produce on their own.. like being >social.. >it destroys everything it touches to some extent.. but i know people that >drink and i don't preach to them about it.. i just don't drink.. if they do >that's fine.. There are your own morals and beliefs. I don't believe drinking alcohol is wrong. In France at least(perhaps more countries), people drink wine with every meal. To my understanding, in Germany it's sorta the same custom except with beer(I may be incorrect as I haven't stepped a foot inside a German class...it's all hearsay). I personally believe drinking alcohol TO EXCESS is wrong, but as I said..That's a personal belief of mine. And you said no reason "except"...So drinking to cover up their feelings or give them something like socialness is correct? In part of my mind I think it's wrong to drink to give myself socialness, but I still do it anyways because I want to be social and I'm not by nature. Others would say it's wrong to use alcohol to cover up feelings, yet I don't consider it wrong at all as there are no other avenues to follow to accomplish such a task. As for whether it destroys anything, only in excess. My belief(from sticking 2 and 2 together from what I understand otherwise) is that it destroys because the brain is drowned from the alcohol. You can "not drink" as it's your choice. I'm just pointing out that what you said about alcohol being wrong wasn't an opinion statement but that it appeared you to be saying that it's absolutely wrong. Take care of yourself anyhow :) Seth D. Fulmer mailto:kaosking@voicenet.com ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 00 12:18:47 EDT From: genben@usa.net Subject: ET: bedtime sessions v.1 i want to write until there is no paper fill volumes with poems and professions of love and lust and longing i want to see daylight while the moon is high and feel a cool breeze while the sun rises i want green fields to play in and dark rooms to laugh in and plot the future from shady corners with subversive allies whose idea of utopia is just not having to say you're sorry i want to find jesus and tell him i like his sandals i want to meet mohammed and listen to his tale i want to sit with buddha under a huge tree and smell lotus blossoms from my lap i want life to be poems and i want love to be within reach... i want laughter in this heart - -ben ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 00 12:21:26 EDT From: genben@usa.net Subject: ET: sunglasses i saw your sunglasses on the table that morning after you left and i thought of the beach and seeing my reflection in them i thought of your eyes hiding and i thought of your heart hiding and i thought of the things i hid and how if you came back i wouldn't do that anymore. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ------------------------------ Date: 2 May 00 12:26:50 EDT From: genben@usa.net Subject: ET: reflection reflection building on a still pool of memory as windows blurred by the dust of years cease to produce impressions left by the important things and past love is left standing in the rain lost without an umbrella or a bus stop to stand in sounds litter the city streets and echoes dance on the wind throughout a mind filled with empty feelings and lonesome tears sad songs fill ears that long for meaning and impressionable children that are our souls feel light and free... ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ------------------------------ Date: Tue May 02 14:06:40 2000 From: Oblivia15@aol.com Subject: ET: Wow...it's certainly been a while... Hullo hullo everyone, I have decided to come out of my "shady cloister" (shakespeare, ahh...)and participate a little bit and perhaps share some thoughts on life... It's truly been interesting to sit back and watch you guys chat back and forth, but I think I'm ready to join in now... So, I'll leave you guys with some poetry......Comments are always more than welcome, and, as always, enjoy..... Love hugs and faerie dust!! Jackie xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx shuddering pen that hesitates to pour elated passages onto this page. tremoring mindscapes which slide down to crash silky waves against a cautious heart. the ink wants to spill a thousand words of love, but jinxes lie within the eager letters and the point stops short of the scrawled utterance. would this confession of happenstance and the dizzying rush it inspires condemn reality to a memory? and is capturing a love's expression worth the penalty of speaking too soon? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Why can't you see that each step you take back and each fit that you throw and each word that snaps from your mouth knocks me over into the very pool of pain you so meticulously lifeguard? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ He was feening, he told her, so he was going to have to be mean for just a little while. He wasn't going to care as much, and his words would probably feel a little bit like daggers. And, who knows, maybe under that skin somewhere there was a little bit of violence waiting to emerge though both of them denied it. All he needed was her - -after he was sated. After all, what could be more important that his one-true-love-and (shove) she was right back at the bottom, the glass emptying quickly so that she could fall against his lips. §§~all poems by Jackie Vaughn~§§ xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 11:07:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Katherine Alexandra Subject: ET: my sister's tears it's weird, how you can debate about something with a whole group of people, and then the next day, a subject which was somewhat remote, hits your life. my sister called in tears, her world just went spinning, and she needs some help. i know a lot of you are prolife, and i understand, but listening to jenn on the phone reminded me of the very reason why i am prochoice, bc it is her life, it is up to her, and this is something that she will live with. but i can't sway it any other way. MY SISTER'S PAIN you called today at 9:30 am, i knew it was important. you talked to me in a whisper, an underground hush. paralyzed from the phone line i listened to you tell me about him. there are so many things that i want to say to you, about how i know he hurts you, how i know he hit you, how i know he is going to come back and ask for your forgiveness. and how i know you are going to let him back in, with black eyes and questions, that will recieve no answer except some flowers and empty promises. but instead i listen in silance while you sob, how he left you for your best friend, how marriage means nothing when you have your ceremony at the local ship and pack. you told me in between breaths that you are pregnant again. silance. everything is spinning in your world and i know superglue can't fix this problem. i just want to go back to the long summers and lazy sundays. i want to return to mothers hands and ice cream cakes. but now months have turned into years and tragidies have proven their end result of harder pain. through the angry picket lines i am going to watch you hide your pigtails and try to do what you know is best. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of eda-thoughts-digest V3 #181 **********************************