From: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org (eda-thoughts-digest) To: eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Subject: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #175 Reply-To: eda-thoughts@smoe.org Sender: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk eda-thoughts-digest Friday, April 28 2000 Volume 03 : Number 175 * If you ever wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * eda-thoughts-digest-request@smoe.org with ONLY * the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #xxx or the like gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: ET: Re: abortion and rape [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] Re: ET: Re: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #171 [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] Re: [ET: free will and values] [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] ET: Re: free will and values [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] RE: ET: Re: abortion and rape ["Platt, Caroline" ] ET: Re: caronline, open your mind [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] ET: RE: free will and values ["Platt, Caroline" ] ET: sorry ["Platt, Caroline" ] ET: Re: blindness [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] ET: Re: free will and values [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] Re: ET: Re: abortion and rape [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] ET: "can't win" topics: Abortion, religion, politics [Mike Connell > They aren't ANIT LIFE!!!! >> They are against the life of a child. There are two side: pro-life and anti-life. Like it or not, that's how it is. no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 16:54:14 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: Re: ET: Re: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #171 In a message dated 4/28/00 1:11:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, JewelAng writes: << << abortion does nothing but cause a woman pain and misery. Nothing good comes from abortion. If you don't understand that then you have never experienced abortion first hand. >> Neither have you Joe!!! >> Yes I have. I know two women who have had abortions. They have suffered tremendously because of it. I have also known women (through the Madonna House) who were contemplating abortion, but later decided not to kill their child. no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 17:05:49 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: Re: [ET: free will and values] In a message dated 4/28/00 11:16:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time, genben@usa.net writes: << I applaud this statement. I find it interesting, Joe, that you rant and rave about Clinton and Reno being oppressive (although not as bad as Castro), I don't rant and rave about anything. I make points about the crimes Clinton and Reno have commited. By your personally attacking my character shows that you are afarid of my arguements. and yet you seem, by some of your statements, perfectly willing to take away people's right to choose how to live their lives. You know what, I don't understand what it will take to get you guys to figure this out. This is basically what you are saying: I am pro-choice. I think that someone should have the choice to rape if they really feel the need to do so, and I feel that people should be trusted with the decision whether or not to rape. I personally could never rape, because I couldn't put someone through that, but I don't believe my morals and beliefs should be enforced upon those who might choose to rape. >There is a certain point at which you have to trust people to make well-informed decisions, and taking away their ability to choose is not the answer to helping them make well-informed decisions. >> See above no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 17:07:18 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: ET: Re: free will and values In a message dated 4/28/00 10:58:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Caroline.Platt@wbr.com writes: << A: You have yet to answer my question as to how a collection of cells inside a womans bosy that is not a sustainable life form outside of her body is a "child" seperate from her with seperate rights. >> Well you have yet to answer my question about how, a heap of flesh and skin, with blood flowing through it and various menora dwelling within its intestines, which cannot survive without a grocery store, (such as yourself), is viable. no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:11:53 -0700 From: "Platt, Caroline" Subject: RE: ET: Re: abortion and rape actually, there ARE two sides. pro-choice, and fascist. :) Joe wrote: There are two side: pro-life and anti-life. Like it or not, that's how it is. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 17:08:51 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: ET: Re: caronline, open your mind I know more people than you do, trust me. Open my mind? To what? Murder? Rape? Death? Destruction? The desecration of human life? You open YOUR mind. no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:13:53 -0700 From: "Platt, Caroline" Subject: ET: RE: free will and values i can go to my farm and grow food to eat. i can walk and pick seeds, and fruit off of trees, and i can drink water where i can find it, without any other human beings, if i so choose. that is how i am alive, and a fetus is not. - -----Original Message----- From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com [mailto:RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] Sent: April 28, 2000 5:07 PM To: Caroline.Platt@wbr.com; genben@usa.net; eda-thoughts@smoe.org Subject: Re: free will and values In a message dated 4/28/00 10:58:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Caroline.Platt@wbr.com writes: << A: You have yet to answer my question as to how a collection of cells inside a womans bosy that is not a sustainable life form outside of her body is a "child" seperate from her with seperate rights. >> Well you have yet to answer my question about how, a heap of flesh and skin, with blood flowing through it and various menora dwelling within its intestines, which cannot survive without a grocery store, (such as yourself), is viable. no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:18:07 -0700 From: "Platt, Caroline" Subject: ET: sorry i would like to apologize for clogging the list with a debate that should/can go private. (back to lurking mode). caroline ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 17:28:07 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: ET: Re: blindness In a message dated 4/28/00 9:28:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org writes: << Date: 28 Apr 00 12:25:26 EDT From: genben@usa.net Subject: Re: [Re: [ET: Re: turning pain into love]] RedWoodenBeads@aol.com wrote: > Hmm, I have told you about like two people from Holy Family Catholic Church > where I go? You know what, you are a real nasty person. I share my personal > experiences on an issue that I have been impassioned for and had experiences > with for years, and you act like I'm some kind of jerk for it. > i'm not trying to be nasty, joe, and i apologize for sounding that way. i'm >saying that the stories you keep telling me/us about all these people you know >are too convenient for your point of view. You cannot judge me like that. I'm sorry you feel that way about my experiences. I don't feel compelled to dress up my walk through life to fit how you feel it should look, and I don't care if you are so threatened by what I am saying that you have to pretend that there is something wrong with me personally, and that I am lying to you. That is your problem, and your problem alone. >do you know anyone who has had an >abortion? I certainly do. A woman in her 40's now who had an abortion when she was in her 20's. She has suffered greatly due to this, and she has regretted this decision she made since the day after she did it. She comes to Mass everyday, and she works at the Madonna House sometimes. I know another woman who had an abortion who has never said she regrets it, but her life has been quite damaged. She got preagnant at a tiem when she and her husband were not expecting to. A shrink urged her to abort because of her career, which would have been forced to be put on hold. Following her abortion, she experienced manic depression and sleeplessness. She sought conciling, but it never helped. A year after her abortion she and her husband split, and her life has been filled with sorrow. I feel deeply sorry for her, and I wish she hadn't been brought into this anti-life dilema she is in the psychologist who encouraged her to have an abortion. >you say you know poeple who have 'gone through this' but they all >seem to support your own ideas. what i'm curious about, and i admit i was rude >about it the first time around (which i apologize for), is whether or not you >have ever personally known anyone who represents the opposite point of view. >for example, a young girl who aborted an unexpected pregnancy and got through >high school an college and went on to a happy life, never forgetting the >sacrifice she had to make to do so? there are those stories out there, too. Well if there are, they sure haven't reached me. Ever think, Einstein, tha a lot of the way I think has been formed by the fact that my experience has been the way it has been? I have yet to come across anyone, who has had an abortion and is today living a happy life. That just doesn't happen. Sorry dude, but when a woman kills her baby, she isn't happy. Not at all. > I am deeply > sorry I ever shared some of my friendships with women who have gone through > this. The fact, is I have spent a lot of tiem at The Madonna House here in > Tulsa. >and by the way, i apologize for thinking you were from st louis. i don't know >why i thought that. sorry i got my facts wrong > When I was little I used to go help my mom plant flowers there. I've > been involved in the pro-life movement. I have prayed outside of abortion > clinics with my fellow Catholics while anit-life-ers throw stuff at us and > cuss us out. Sorry that you don't like the fact that I actually am able to > prove you wrong and so you have to personally attack me. Sigh. >i still don't see A) how you've "proved me wrong" B) why you equate >"pro-choice" with "anti-life". this is one of the problems with the abortion >question. I AM NOT ANTI-LIFE. i cannot stress this enough. anyone who knows >me >knows that i value life over any other thing in the world. i got out of my way >every day not to harm any other living thing. i never judge anyone else's >choice, though. i feel that the only way to project your activism and promote >your way of life is to practice what you preach and teach by example. >force-feeding people your ideas will never change their mind, and it is >offensive to do so. Yeah, you're right. I mean, you have to be open-minded about this. I am pro-choice. I mean, I personally would never murder an old lady, but that doesn't mean I should force my values on other people. Others have to be trusted with the decision whether or not to murder an old woman, and I should respect those who feel the need to kill and aged woman. > All I am saying is that children have the right to live and no one has the > right to murder them. I am sorry, but I don't feel that sucking an infant out > of his/her mother's body and then throwing their corpse in a trash can is > right. > so don't. you don't have to. and you can say that you think abortion is bad > all you like. but the fact is that you are being intrusive and judgemental by >telling other people what to do. we all are guilty of a "holier than thou" >attitude at times (i know that i am), but the important thing is not trying to >impose your will on others. You could not be more right. I mean, I would never rape a woman. I just couldn't do that. But I wouldn't want to force my "holier than thou" attitudes onto some other man and try to stop him from making the choice to rape. People should be trusted with these decisions. You shouldn't impose your will on others. If a man feels the need to rape he should have that choice. For him not to have that choice would be a violation of his freedom. no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 17:30:04 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: ET: Re: free will and values In a message dated 4/28/00 2:11:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Caroline.Platt@wbr.com writes: << i can go to my farm and grow food to eat. i can walk and pick seeds, and fruit off of trees, and i can drink water where i can find it, without any other human beings, if i so choose. that is how i am alive, and a fetus is not. >> A fetus can be placed in a live support system. There is now technology which allows a fetus to grow and mature outside of a woman. An unborn child, is very much alive. Sorry that bothers you. no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 17:31:55 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: Re: ET: Re: abortion and rape In a message dated 4/28/00 2:08:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Caroline.Platt@wbr.com writes: << actually, there ARE two sides. pro-choice, and fascist. >> Actually, there are two sides: pro-life and facist, which is the same thing as liberal. What Hitler did to the Jews is very similar to Abortion. In addition, the Nazi Party was a socialist state. Don't try to tell me it was right-wing, cause that's BS. The Nazi's were in the left, and that's history. no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 17:42:03 -0400 From: Mike Connell Subject: ET: "can't win" topics: Abortion, religion, politics It's safe to say that I am older than any other person subscribed to this list, so I have had more experience in life in many areas. (less I am sure, in some) If there's ONE thing I've learned through the years, is that when it comes to *passionate* subjects (i.e. abortion, religion, politics etc), most people have their strongly stern/set beliefs, and will go way out of their way to convince others that they are right and the others are wrong. In conjunction with this observation, I have RARELY, if ever, seen anyone convince someone with different beliefs in one of these passionate topics to even slightly alter their beliefs, much less change them. It's hard enough face-to-face, which is a truly interactive medium, to change someone elses' beliefs. In an email forum, I'd venture to say it's totally impossible. We have ALL heard opposing arguments on these topics long before they came up on this list. Same goes with the Elian Gonzalez situation......I NEVER thought I'd be so sick of a topic I'd be YEARNING for news about OJ or Monica ;-) We all have our thoughts on this Elian topic, have heard every possible opinion from friends, relatives, e-buddies, TV & radio personalities, at least 25 times over. Both sides of the abortion "arguments" have been heard long before any of you were even born. Nothing is new. The point of all of this? I honestly believe that the overpopulation, abortion, Elian talk here has run its' course and is now wasting time and space for each of us. I am asking as a fellow ist member, and NOT as list owner.......how about we move on from all of this? No one is winning, and no one is going to win. Mike :-) P.S. One request AS list owner though....please edit your replies more carefully, and choose carefully WHO you send replies to. If your reply really is more personal than public, send it privately to the person rather than the whole list (especially the "one liners"). If, of course, your reply can benefit the whole list, by all means send it on to the list. If you quote someone's post in your reply, edit out as much of it as you can, while still supporting your point. It's RARELY necessary to send on an ENTIRE quoted post in your reply.  : \    / :                    -- o -- :                      /    \ :                             .---.           .---. :                           /      \  @    /      \ :                         / / /     \(   ) /    \ \  \ :                       //////  /    '     `       --\\\\ :                     / /   /  / :         :   --\  \  \ \ :                    //  / /   /   /`     \     --\\ \   \\ :                  / /   /  /  / /  . .  . \ \  \    \   \ \                     We are everyday angels. :) ------------------------------ End of eda-thoughts-digest V3 #175 **********************************