From: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org (eda-thoughts-digest) To: eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Subject: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #174 Reply-To: eda-thoughts@smoe.org Sender: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk eda-thoughts-digest Friday, April 28 2000 Volume 03 : Number 174 * If you ever wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * eda-thoughts-digest-request@smoe.org with ONLY * the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #xxx or the like gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [ET: Re: turning pain into love] [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] ET: Re: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #171 [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] ET: free will and values ["Platt, Caroline" ] Re: [ET: free will and values] [genben@usa.net] ET: defending the burning of my mothers bra [Katherine Alexandra > What are you saying here? That people should do whatever they want depending on their choice? How about if I choose to kill you? Or what if a guy chooses to rape a girl? No one's opinions matter when it comes to moral rights and wrongs. Killing a baby is wrong, period, and evverything should be done, at all costs, to stop the murder of any children. no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:44:40 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: ET: Re: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #171 abortion does nothing but cause a woman pain and misery. Nothing good comes from abortion. If you don't understand that then you have never experienced abortion first hand. no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:01:02 -0700 From: "Platt, Caroline" Subject: ET: free will and values << But Joe, how does what YOU, as a Catholic, believe is right, have anyhting to do with the right to choose anything for 130 million American women? >> What are you saying here? That people should do whatever they want depending on their choice? How about if I choose to kill you? Or what if a guy chooses to rape a girl? No one's opinions matter when it comes to moral rights and wrongs. Killing a baby is wrong, period, and evverything should be done, at all costs, to stop the murder of any children. A: You have yet to answer my question as to how a collection of cells inside a womans bosy that is not a sustainable life form outside of her body is a "child" seperate from her with seperate rights. B: "Everything at all costs should be done to stop (name bad crime here)". So we should just let people live there entire lives without any freedom of movement or choice, on the off chance they might commit a crime? Like ALL men should be castrated so no more rapes occur? EVERYONE should have their index finger removed so no one gets shot? We should all give up our civil liberties so people like you can dictate what is right and not right? Are those acceptable costs Joe? Not to me. I care to retain my freedom to choose any action at any time. C: "No one's opinions matter when it comes to moral rights and wrongs." Well, then how do you know what is right and wrong? Shouldnt people live by their own values? Who decides? That statement is utterly nonsensical, as everything is someone's opinion at some point. When you accept someone else's, (like the Pope's, for example) that is your choice, but it does not make anything absolute. Nothing is ever absolute truth, it is all just human opinion. So on the contrary, EVERYONE's opinions matter, particularly with regards to right and wrong. ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 00 14:16:31 EDT From: genben@usa.net Subject: Re: [ET: free will and values] "Platt, Caroline" wrote: > B: "Everything at all costs should be done to stop (name bad crime here)". > > So we should just let people live there entire lives without any freedom of > movement or choice, on the off chance they might commit a crime? Like ALL > men should be castrated so no more rapes occur? EVERYONE should have their > index finger removed so no one gets shot? We should all give up our civil > liberties so people like you can dictate what is right and not right? Are > those acceptable costs Joe? Not to me. I care to retain my freedom to choose > any action at any time. I applaud this statement. I find it interesting, Joe, that you rant and rave about Clinton and Reno being oppressive (although not as bad as Castro), and yet you seem, by some of your statements, perfectly willing to take away people's right to choose how to live their lives. There is a certain point at which you have to trust people to make well-informed decisions, and taking away their ability to choose is not the answer to helping them make well-informed decisions. "laws" are not going to keep things from ahppening, they are just a way for society to feel better about itself when someone does something against the norm. If you don't want people to have abortions, then do all the wonderful things you talk about, like providing food and shelter for unwed mothers, supporting adoption programs, etc. Your theory about birth control is also way off-base. While I personally agree with you, Joe, that people should hold sex in a higher regard than they do, I think your idea that people will simply stop having sex when they get better morals is absurd. People are going to have sex. Period. So let's teach them how to do it safely, by using birth control and staying clear of risky behavior. Teach them about the hardships that people endure when faced with an unexpected pregnancy or sudden infection with an STD. Education is the key to prevention. Telling people they have no choice is not the answer, because they know they still do. > C: "No one's opinions matter when it comes to moral rights and > wrongs." > > Well, then how do you know what is right and wrong? Shouldnt people live by > their own values? Who decides? That statement is utterly nonsensical, as > everything is someone's opinion at some point. When you accept someone > else's, (like the Pope's, for example) that is your choice, but it does not > make anything absolute. Nothing is ever absolute truth, it is all just > human opinion. So on the contrary, EVERYONE's opinions matter, particularly > with regards to right and wrong. Amen. People's opinons are what morals and values are based around. The idea that the world is one big objective experience is kinda silly. People see things differently. People have different value systems. The fact is, telling people that they don't have the option to do something that they obviously DO have the option to do won't solve anything. ben ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:52:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Katherine Alexandra Subject: ET: defending the burning of my mothers bra ok this just really got on my nerves....i'm sorry but femeinism didnt create this problem at all. IT'S NOT THE WOMAN'S FAULT THAT SEX TURNED INTO FUCKING. you know why? bc it has ALWAYS been that way. i hate it when people are so naive that they believe that somehow before the burnings of bras that life was better, that children were happier and that men treated women better bc we tend to forget a lot about all the repression that was going on. i will defend my mother till the day i die when it comes to her involvement in the feminist movement. my mother was pregnant at 19 and no, she didnt have the abortion, she had my brother. but she had a hell of a time with this. her bf left to vietnam, he didnt make it back. she was trying to do something that very few women had done before, raise a child on her own, completely. she has taught me and my sisters (and so has my dad) the importance of being a female. and yes there is a glass ceiling. and if you are that naive not to notice it, put it this way, i can get the same degree, similar experiance and statisticly speaking, lower wages. but this is the thing: in a woman's life if she stays at home to raise a child she looked down on bc she isn't being a "progressive female" yet if she goes to work and tries to take care of her child she is always being looked down on for trying to be a "supermom" and for not always be able to go to her daughters soccer practice. and yes it is EXTREMELY hard to be a female. i hate it when people go off about the feminist movement bc WOMEN COULDN'T VOTE, WOMEN WERE SECOND CLASS, women were considered stupid, to stay at home, wash the dishes barefoot, get fat, or always stay pretty with a smile. it's bc MEN FEAR WOMEN. during WWII women went out to the factories, they loved it. men came back, to back their jobs. but that's the thing, there is a complete fear. by going off about the womens movement it's similar to going off about the civil rights movement. it had to happen and it was an amazing time in our culture, for people to protest and be heard. this is something that i am so proud about when it comes to america, that peoplen came together and fixed what was wrong. but next time you bitch about the feminist movement, just consider all the smart chicks that you know going to college and not being able to use their degrees. or about females feeling guilty for sexual feelings. the females that had to sit back and allow the men to talk for them. it was an amazing movement. kat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:45:38 EDT From: JewelAng@aol.com Subject: Re: ET: the right to choose In a message dated 4/27/00 9:58:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cymbaline76@hotmail.com writes: << Drugs are illegal, but they still happen. But they're harder to come by. If they were legal, it would be so easy, and so common. Even more so then they are, being illegal. >> I don't know about that. US has a really bad drug problem. More so, I think, than places that have legalised it. But going back to abortions... Now if we make them illegial, they will still happen, but they will be less safe. Is that what you all want? Is it REALLY your choice to stop abortions? It is the woman's OWN choice. Rebecca - -------------------------------- http://www.envy.nu/ophelia Ophelia Spins http://nettrash.com/users/majesticramblings .majestic.ramblings. http://www.envy.nu/souls Common hearts with common dreams (cliques) http://www.angelfire.com/yt/horns My horns keep up my halo (webring) - ----------------------------------- Into the night of the heart your name drops slowly and moves in silence and falls and breaks and spreads its water *Pablo Neruda* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:53:04 EDT From: JewelAng@aol.com Subject: Re: ET: Re: abortion and rape In a message dated 4/27/00 11:39:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RedWoodenBeads@aol.com writes: << My deepest sorrow for what you weant through. There is nothign worse than when a male is cruel to a female. Your points where wonderful. I cannot agree with you more. Often, so it seems, many of these women (or girls) are afriad and don't know what to do. They feel as though they have no way out, and so these anti-life people get them in a weak situation and try to convince them to abort. It's horrible. >> They aren't ANIT LIFE!!!! This is pissing me off! They are PRO-CHOICE!! Meaning they think a woman should CHOOSE!! They are not awful demons who go around telling women to abort their children! Rebecca - -------------------------------- http://www.envy.nu/ophelia Ophelia Spins http://nettrash.com/users/majesticramblings .majestic.ramblings. http://www.envy.nu/souls Common hearts with common dreams (cliques) http://www.angelfire.com/yt/horns My horns keep up my halo (webring) - ----------------------------------- Into the night of the heart your name drops slowly and moves in silence and falls and breaks and spreads its water *Pablo Neruda* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 16:11:49 EDT From: JewelAng@aol.com Subject: Re: ET: Re: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #171 In a message dated 4/28/00 1:47:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RedWoodenBeads@aol.com writes: << abortion does nothing but cause a woman pain and misery. Nothing good comes from abortion. If you don't understand that then you have never experienced abortion first hand. >> Neither have you Joe!!! Rebecca - -------------------------------- http://www.envy.nu/ophelia Ophelia Spins http://nettrash.com/users/majesticramblings .majestic.ramblings. http://www.envy.nu/souls Common hearts with common dreams (cliques) http://www.angelfire.com/yt/horns My horns keep up my halo (webring) - ----------------------------------- Into the night of the heart your name drops slowly and moves in silence and falls and breaks and spreads its water *Pablo Neruda* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:20:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason Vierling Subject: ET: Re: birth-control will never cure abortion Ok, I know I am asking for a world of hurt by getting into this discussion, but there is alot of odd assumptions being drawn here. I see alot of passionate personal belief and associative logic being used in place of fact on both sides of this whole discussion. As such, I now feel completly free to add my own biased and uncorroborated viewpoint. > Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 00:44:29 EDT > From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com > Subject: ET: Re: birth-control will never cure > abortion > When was the last tiem anti-life people opened a > home for un-wed mothers, > huh? When did they ever stand up for the weak? Off the top of my head...Becky's house in San Diego...battered womens shelter...provides shelter and rape counseling to victimized women and their families....started by two "leftist liberal" radio dj's in response to a caller's need for safety. > The answer to ending abortions doesn't lie in more > birth control either. Right..because if people used more birth control we'd have lots more abortions...no wait...hmmm.... > Birth control, abortion, it all lies behind the same > type of thinking. It's > this thinking that sex is something to toss around, > a joke, a party, a > whatever. So if my wife and I decide to PLAN on when to have children....responsibly...and within our ability by using birth control...this is treating sex as a JOKE? Even if we weren't married? Man...this must be the most immoral I've been in years. > There was a time when sex was something sacred, when > people didn't treat it > like "fucking", and all that jazz. People actually > took responsibility for > their actions, because there was a chance you could > get preagnant. Men > respected women because of this, and family life was > strong. When was this? I mean can you give a timeframe even generally? This is nostalgic "golden days" hogwash. This is what our parents and grandparents feed us in order to lend credence to what they tell us to do in our lives. This is also what our leaders tell us so we can be convinced we need THEM to lead us "back" to that "time". The simple fact is that sex has always happened married or-unwed as long as people have had genitals. Did society used to have harsher reactions to unwed pregnancy/sex? YES. I referance the popoular american phrase "shot-gun wedding". While it's literal execution was not as widespread, the practical application was often enforced by families/society in response to unwed pregnancy. Also, until very recently (in terms of history) pregancy (married or not) carried at best a 50/50 survival rate for mother and child, so one might argue that medicine is to blame for allowing more of ALL types of pregnancies to come to term vs back in the "olden, wonderful, zippity-do-dah days" > So where did this whole "sex is whatever" attitude > come from, eh? From > feminism. I'm not talking about women's sufferage, > that's toatlly different. > Feminism is basically this. Have sex all you want, > and don't worry about a > thing! Just slap a condom on, or drop a pill and you > can party all night. This is where I get lost in the rant. I am a male and admit I don't fully comprehend the nuances of the feminist movement. However, If part of that struggle for equality is for the is the right to behave as foolishly with their bodies as males have throughout history, then more power to them. The fact is that you can only ASK people to be responsible. The only thing society can in fact enforce is a ragged form of accountability. The two are not the same. > And if you do get preagnant, no problem there either, > just kill the kid. Birth > control doesn't end abortions, in fact birth-control > always has to have > abortion to back it up, because if it fails (and > believe me, it does), then > the preagnancy still must be eliminated. hmmm.....we seem to have come back to this point again. Birth control is immoral because it is one step better than abortion. Sorry...less unwanted pregnancies = less abortions. Birth control may not SOLVE the "problem" of abortion, but it does abate it. > The cure to this abortion disease is simply this. > People need to return to > that respect for sex. Sex needs to be sacred. And > for that to happen, people > need to put their family first. Afetr all of my nitpicking...I totaslly agree with this last bit. If everyone had a sense of value for life and the responsibility to comport themselves with a respect for the balance of life, then the world would be much easier place to live in. I share your sense of sadness over the loss of these children, I have a daughter that was born at 25 weeks gestational age. It horrifies me to think that her stage of development is still open for termination, but that is my view based on my life's experience and love for my child. It pains me to think that there are women in the world in such dire straits (real or imagined) that they feel that abortion in a neccesary step. But then again I haven't walked a mile in their shoes........... Thanks for letting me ramble :) Jason V ===== EveryDay Angels Foundation (visit at www.edaf.org) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ End of eda-thoughts-digest V3 #174 **********************************