From: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org (eda-thoughts-digest) To: eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Subject: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #173 Reply-To: eda-thoughts@smoe.org Sender: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk eda-thoughts-digest Friday, April 28 2000 Volume 03 : Number 173 * If you ever wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * eda-thoughts-digest-request@smoe.org with ONLY * the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #xxx or the like gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. Today's Subjects: ----------------- ET: Re: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #172 [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] ET: Re: pro-choice is a lie, baby's don't choose to die [RedWoodenBeads@a] ET: Re: judging [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] ET: Re: birth-control will never cure abortion [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] ET: jennie and her abortion [Katherine Alexandra ] Re: ET: jennie and her abortion ["~* cymbaline *~" ] Re: [Re: [ET: Re: turning pain into love]] [genben@usa.net] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 00:21:37 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: ET: Re: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #172 In a message dated 4/27/00 9:02:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org writes: << In a message dated 4/26/100 11:02:00 PM EST, owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org writes: << well, through God all things are possible. maybe it was a sign from God, through the baby, giving thanks for saving its life, rather than aborting it because it had a disease it had no control over! >> Well, maybe it's all horseshit. But hey, you believe it, that's fine. >> Wow, aren't you just too cool. no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 00:24:39 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: ET: Re: pro-choice is a lie, baby's don't choose to die In a message dated 4/27/00 9:02:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org writes: << Dear Angels, If it's the woman's choice, then she should be able to do exactly whatever the hell it is she wants to do. Court >> Well, gee, shouldn't we all be able to decide who lives and dies then? How about if I decide you should die, eh? You know, I imagine, that in the billions of murders through abortions that have occured, the person who was going to cure AIDS was aborted somewhere along the line. no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 00:26:15 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: ET: Re: judging In a message dated 4/27/00 9:02:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org writes: << i think each woman should make her own choice. it is not up to anyone to judge the situation of rape, ESPECIALLY. and i am sorry joe, but i am extremely touchy when men start judging women on the topic of abortion. >> I am not judging any woman. I am saying that killing a baby is murder, period. That's the end of it. It has nothing to do with what I think, or what anyone else thinks, it's just the way it is. no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 00:44:29 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: ET: Re: birth-control will never cure abortion In a message dated 4/27/00 9:02:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org writes: << "they call her a sinner, a killer and a whore. try to stand in her shoes, and then maybe you would understand how hard it is too choose"....it's something like that... anyhow....what i am trying to say is, i understand if you are against abortion, but you dont' know their situation. and abortion is going to happen, illeagly. perhaps we should work with the core of the problem, make it so that birth control is more widely avaible, maybe parents need to be more honest with their children and not live in denial, BUT sex is going to happen, abortions are going to occur. you really dont know the situation that the person is in, until you are in it. i have a friend that got pregnant prom night her senior year. she has this bf, he went into the army. a real ass. you know what? he fucking poked holes in the condom. he's not there for her at all. this girl is a mess, she was the sort of person that would break down in tears if she couldn't find a dress that fit inside the mall. i know it sounds terrible, but she is a horrible mother. i have spent a great deal of time with her, it's such a hard job. esp. when the man isn't there (and in most cases he isn't). i am just saying that you can't stop abortions from happening, they will, legalized or not....but perhaps if we could find the root of the problem, if parents could get closer to their children...DECREASE abortions, you can't stop them though. love, kat >> God, Everlast is lame. I mean really, that dude is plain lame. I am so sick of mainstream music, it is just such crap. And on top of it, his lyrics suck. He doesn't have any ides what he is talking about. The pro-life people I know never scream at anyone, or call anyone a whore. They start homes like The Madonna House and Catholic Charities where preagnant women and girls are welcome with open-arms, regardless or their creed, beliefs or whatever. They provide for these people. When was the last tiem anti-life people opened a home for un-wed mothers, huh? When did they ever stand up for the weak? When I was like 8 or 9, and I used to pray with my friends and family in front of abortion clinics, anti-life people used to throw crap at us, call us names, say we should all die, and basically treat us like shit. So there's the difference. Everlast can go play his lame open-chord bar-less progressions to sythetic beats up where it ain't shining. As far as Kat's post, well, here ya go. You raised soem good questions. But regardless of whether abortions will happen or not, they should still be COMPLETELY, 100% ILLEGAL. post-birth murders may happen, rape may happen, crime may happen, but the law must be against it. The murder of children can never be perceived as within law. The answer to ending abortions doesn't lie in more birth control either. Birth control, abortion, it all lies behind the same type of thinking. It's this thinking that sex is something to toss around, a joke, a party, a whatever. There was a time when sex was something sacred, when people didn't treat it like "fucking", and all that jazz. People actually took responsibility for their actions, because there was a chance you could get preagnant. Men respected women because of this, and family life was strong. So where did this whole "sex is whatever" attitude come from, eh? From feminism. I'm not talking about women's sufferage, that's toatlly different. Feminism is basically this. Have sex all you want, and don't worry about a thing! Just slap a condom on, or drop a pill and you can party all night. And if you do get preagnant, no problem there either, just kill the kid. Birth control doesn't end abortions, in fact birth-control always has to have abortion to back it up, because if it fails (and believe me, it does), then the preagnancy still must be eliminated. The cure to this abortion disease is simply this. People need to return to that respect for sex. Sex needs to be sacred. And for that to happen, people need to put their family first. no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 21:49:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Katherine Alexandra Subject: ET: jennie and her abortion i knew this girl in high school, she was quiet and didnt have many friends. we would talk in french class sometimes, mostly surface conversations. she got pregnant by her bf, she didnt tell anyone. it was this secret, she told me one day in class through a note. all i could this was, i cant believe someone is telling me something this life-altering through note passing. we would talk about it, her parents were extreme radical christians, they would flip that she even got pregnant, her bf was obviously not able to handle a child (a big druggie) and she has been suicidal. she would come into class a mess. she was being weighed down by problems, that me at 16 didnt fully comprehend. she asked me to take her to the clinic, it was one of the hardest choices i have ever made, bc i felt as though i could never fully help her through this. we went, there were about 3 people protesting, but they did yell. jennies eyes were welled up, she was crying bc she felt like such a whore. i felt horrible for her, i felt as though people lacked something incredibly important and that is compassion. jennie would cut herself, she hid behind big clothes, she knew that this was too much for her to handle. she went through the abortion, i was in the waiting room. jennie thought this out, it wasn't a choice that she just decided on out of nowhere. and it was a hard choice, and jennie would cry about it. she ended up transfering to another school when people started finding out and her bf broke up with her. but she showed me something that i didnt fully understand, it might not be something you would do, and perhaps your morals are against it, but it is the right for a person to choose their own morals and decide if it is right for them. my sister was raped at 15 and she was afraid to tell anyone. we found out bc she contacted an STD which she will have for the rest of her life. she tells me the hep. is a constant reminder of what happened to her. rapists don't use condoms, they dont stop and think, "WAIT! what if i get her pregnant! or give her my disease?" it's not like that. and i am sorry to stay, but most boys leave once the girl has a baby. they go on with their life, they may play with the child sometimes and send money...but their life hasn't stopped, they dont have to put things on hold....and yes it is ok to be selfish when you are young. just my thoughts and person experiance. kat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 01:48:43 -0400 From: "Seth D. Fulmer" Subject: Re: ET: Re: abortion and rape Ok, I've tried to stay out of the abortion thing because I feel so strongly about it, but(yes you knew there was a but) there have been mentionings about if a woman is raped...that it's not the baby's fault and someone pointed out "It's not the woman's fault either". So why make the woman suffer as well? Perhaps because I am a male and won't ever have a baby(*prays that I don't have to undergo that torture*), but knowing, or rather viewing the appearance of what pain having a baby is, I would not make a woman do that if she didn't want the baby in the beginning...like she planned to have sex(not have the baby per se). If she planned to have sex but didn't want a baby..that's her own fault. However rape is not even planned for the women. If she has it done in the first month or so, I find no problem with getting an abortion. Waiting too long to me moves the blame to the mother and I'd tell her to have the baby then(as a sort of punishment but it's not really punishment so much as "you had your chance"). Sure, letting the baby be born would be good for the kid, but in the very beginning after the egg is fertilized...any bio or premed majors might want to correct me but I'm pretty sure the life form in the uterus has no "neural activity" yet so it's not like there's any "torture" involved. In my eyes, the rapist was the murderer then because he deprived the possible lifeform that would have formed half from that egg of an existence because he didn't get the woman's consent first. Perhaps it's insensitive. I frankly don't care. My life is governed partly by placing blame and how much pain is involved in various tracts. If the woman is raped, and the abortion is done early enough,...the mother feels nothing, the life form in her uterus(I refuse to call it a baby because "it" (a) has no sex yet and (b) doesn't even have a semblance of a brain yet) feels nothing, and the rapist feels nothing physical(I'm not talking about his legal punishments, or mental distress for anyone here). As for mental distress, the lifeform doesn't have anything to be mentally distressed WITH so none for the unborn lifeform, as I've stated before. I don't know about the mother, as I'm male and not a female and won't ever have a baby. The rapist only has mental distress by way of the law and if the woman chooses to have the abortion, the woman. Rape is about the only time in my mind I think it's ok to have an abortion. If 2 people are having unprotected sex, it's their problem. If 2 people are having sex to have a baby, find out it's the "wrong" sex and want it aborted, I wouldn't go with that either. If a teen is having sex and "something happens"...that's their fault as well. A baby is not a cookie jar and can't just be fixed before the mommy and daddy find out. Anyhow, I'll stop my ranting and get to bed. Take care and Have a Great Day!! :) Seth D. Fulmer mailto:kaosking@voicenet.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:47:29 GMT From: "~* cymbaline *~" Subject: Re: ET: jennie and her abortion >it's not like that. and i am sorry to stay, but most >boys leave once the girl has a baby. That is a stereotype! When a boy "loves" a girl, sure he will leave her! But thats just the bastard he is! When a guy LOVES a girl with his heart and soul, he sticks by her. Yoiu shouldn't judge "most guys" on the fact some guys are simply assholes. Another story about a girl I knew. She was dating her boyfriend for a while, then she got pregnant. Well, she told her parents (Catholics), and they were upset at first, but they were very supportive. Well, Kate and her boyfriend were so happy about this baby... even though it was unplanned. And even though they were seniors in HS, they were gonna keep it, and take care of it. Her boyfriend would have been with her today... but he left her: HE GOT KILLED! He was flying to see relatives over Christmas break, and his plane crashed in the mountians. She was 6 months pregnant. She gave birth to a beautiful baby boy... >and yes it is ok to be >selfish when you are young. Says who? Selfishness is terrible. No matter how old you are kelly ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 12:02:54 -0400 (EDT) From: courtney gordon Subject: ET: poem Ode to her Childhood is supposed to be flowers and jumpropes and mudpies in the sand-box in Molly and Travis's back yard. It's not supposed to be the world has teeth and it can jump out and bite you with them whenever it wants, and it does. It's not supposed to be maybe if I hide in the closet he won't find me. maybe if I pretend I'm sleeping he'll ignore me and stop touching me. I am a nobody because I don't believe God cares about me. It wasn't supposed to be I'm going to carry this for the rest of my life because jacking off just isn't quite good enough for him He won't let me have friends over when he's there because they might see him touch me I only tried to stand up for myself once for a minute there, I almost had a name. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Comments and praise always welcome, no ciritcism on this one, thanks yall! Courtney Unlock the silence ------------------------------ Date: 28 Apr 00 12:25:26 EDT From: genben@usa.net Subject: Re: [Re: [ET: Re: turning pain into love]] RedWoodenBeads@aol.com wrote: > Hmm, I have told you about like two people from Holy Family Catholic Church > where I go? You know what, you are a real nasty person. I share my personal > experiences on an issue that I have been impassioned for and had experiences > with for years, and you act like I'm some kind of jerk for it. i'm not trying to be nasty, joe, and i apologize for sounding that way. i'm saying that the stories you keep telling me/us about all these people you know are too convenient for your point of view. do you know anyone who has had an abortion? you say you know poeple who have 'gone through this' but they all seem to support your own ideas. what i'm curious about, and i admit i was rude about it the first time around (which i apologize for), is whether or not you have ever personally known anyone who represents the opposite point of view. for example, a young girl who aborted an unexpected pregnancy and got through high school an college and went on to a happy life, never forgetting the sacrifice she had to make to do so? there are those stories out there, too. > I am deeply > sorry I ever shared some of my friendships with women who have gone through > this. The fact, is I have spent a lot of tiem at The Madonna House here in > Tulsa. and by the way, i apologize for thinking you were from st louis. i don't know why i thought that. sorry i got my facts wrong > When I was little I used to go help my mom plant flowers there. I've > been involved in the pro-life movement. I have prayed outside of abortion > clinics with my fellow Catholics while anit-life-ers throw stuff at us and > cuss us out. Sorry that you don't like the fact that I actually am able to > prove you wrong and so you have to personally attack me. Sigh. i still don't see A) how you've "proved me wrong" B) why you equate "pro-choice" with "anti-life". this is one of the problems with the abortion question. I AM NOT ANTI-LIFE. i cannot stress this enough. anyone who knows me knows that i value life over any other thing in the world. i got out of my way every day not to harm any other living thing. i never judge anyone else's choice, though. i feel that the only way to project your activism and promote your way of life is to practice what you preach and teach by example. force-feeding people your ideas will never change their mind, and it is offensive to do so. > All I am saying is that children have the right to live and no one has the > right to murder them. I am sorry, but I don't feel that sucking an infant out > of his/her mother's body and then throwing their corpse in a trash can is > right. so don't. you don't have to. and you can say that you think abortion is bad all you like. but the fact is that you are being intrusive and judgemental by telling other people what to do. we all are guilty of a "holier than thou" attitude at times (i know that i am), but the important thing is not trying to impose your will on others. >> you are simply not makig a whole lot of sense. >> > I'm not? And what, your personal, hateful attacks are making sense? i don't hate you joe. some of the things you say do hit a nerve with me and i have lashed out. i apologize if i offended you. the fact that you say things that offend me is no excuse for me doing the same. but what i am disputing with you is whether or not it is your place to make decisions for other people. the point i made earlier that you haven't mentioned any encounters with people whose experience runs AGAINST your belief is the reason that i feel you are coming from a one-sided perspective. if you want to show me evidence to the contrary, that is marvelous. but until you do that, i'm going to assume that your black-and-white assesment of this issue stems from the fact that you really haven't had diverse experience regarding the issue. ben > no longer cradled in gravity's memory > still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness > spinning in torment into the garden of light > -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" > http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ------------------------------ End of eda-thoughts-digest V3 #173 **********************************