From: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org (eda-thoughts-digest) To: eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Subject: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #167 Reply-To: eda-thoughts@smoe.org Sender: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk eda-thoughts-digest Wednesday, April 26 2000 Volume 03 : Number 167 * If you ever wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * eda-thoughts-digest-request@smoe.org with ONLY * the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #xxx or the like gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. Today's Subjects: ----------------- ET: little elian and abortion [Katherine Alexandra ] Re: ET: Re: beautifully put [JewelAng@aol.com] Re: ET: Re: indie rock [JewelAng@aol.com] Re: [ET: elian] [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] Re: [Re: [ET: elian]] [genben@usa.net] RE: [ET: elian] ["Platt, Caroline" ] RE: [ET: elian] ["Platt, Caroline" ] Re: ET: elian [Summer Burton ] Re: [ET: elian] [Summer Burton ] Re: ET: Re: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #162 [zerocool@sunlink.net (Niki)] ET: to joe about abortion [zerocool@sunlink.net (Niki)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:01:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Katherine Alexandra Subject: ET: little elian and abortion alright, i have a huge term paper infront of me so this will be quick: seth, i see where you are coming from, and i think actualy we have similar views on this. i just think that the child, no matter what, belongs with his father. it's up to the father where he wants to be. i know castro is probably whispering in fathers ears, but the truth of the matter is, a child belongs with his biological parent. i think sometimes we get so ethnocentric in america that we tend not to see certain things like that as important anymore...just a dumbing down on the culture. mind you, i really do love america, i just feel that this is something that is a problem. with abortion....please people always keep in mind this, lets say you make abortion illegal, it's still going to happen. women are still going to have unwanted pregnancies. this has been shown time and time again (when abortion was illegal in america, un reports) that when we stop all abortion, abortions still happen just in the black market. this creates a very unhealthy situation, women get beaton, it's not even done by a proper dr, abortions are going to happen. i think everyone agrees that the radicals, on both sides (although the radical right has been much louder) are going through with this on the whole wrong approach. i am completely shocked each time a "proLIFE" shoots a dr. it just seems a little bit ironic there. anyhow, enough of this i need to go my work. kat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:04:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Katherine Alexandra Subject: ET: ani and joe you know what's kinda funny? just about all of ani's political songs joe would be against. just food for thought :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:23:12 EDT From: JewelAng@aol.com Subject: Re: ET: Re: beautifully put In a message dated 4/26/00 2:44:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RedWoodenBeads@aol.com writes: << << Its not gross. Its beautiful. Its amazing. >> Beautifully put >> Yes, that was beautifully put. Life is a wonderful thing. And then to see a tiny human life, who is still an embro, is even more amazing. You can see all the little details of this perfect human being. Okay, don't get me wrong, if you want an abortion, I think you should be able to have one. But *I* could never get one. I wouldn't be able to take away that little human life. But a woman should be able to choose. Rebecca - -------------------------------- http://www.envy.nu/ophelia Ophelia Spins http://nettrash.com/users/majesticramblings .majestic.ramblings. http://www.envy.nu/souls Common hearts with common dreams (cliques) http://www.angelfire.com/yt/horns My horns keep up my halo (webring) - ----------------------------------- Into the night of the heart your name drops slowly and moves in silence and falls and breaks and spreads its water *Pablo Neruda* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 15:24:36 EDT From: JewelAng@aol.com Subject: Re: ET: Re: indie rock In a message dated 4/26/00 2:45:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RedWoodenBeads@aol.com writes: << But Ani, god, the woman is a musical saint. What she has done as an indie artist is awe inspiring. >> Yes. Jewel is kinda packaged. I think she was more pure as a "folk singer" in 95. I wish I could go back in time and see her. But Ani, hell she has this energy and this talent that is AMAZING. Rebecca - -------------------------------- http://www.envy.nu/ophelia Ophelia Spins http://nettrash.com/users/majesticramblings .majestic.ramblings. http://www.envy.nu/souls Common hearts with common dreams (cliques) http://www.angelfire.com/yt/horns My horns keep up my halo (webring) - ----------------------------------- Into the night of the heart your name drops slowly and moves in silence and falls and breaks and spreads its water *Pablo Neruda* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 16:24:33 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: Re: [ET: elian] In a message dated 4/26/00 11:54:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Caroline.Platt@wbr.com writes: << it's no the U.S. itself, it is the leaders we have right now. Clinton is marxist. Reno is marxist. We are being run by marxists right now. how do you figure? in what way are reno and clinton marxist? >> They are completely Marxist in their thinking. Time and time again they have displayed their feelings of having a dominating government. In addition, Reno (under Clinton's aproval) killed an entire group of people in Waco. They're not just Marxist, they're evil. no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 00 17:02:12 EDT From: genben@usa.net Subject: Re: [Re: [ET: elian]] > << it's no the U.S. itself, it is the leaders we have right now. Clinton is > marxist. Reno is marxist. We are being run by marxists right now. > > > > how do you figure? in what way are reno and clinton marxist? >> > > They are completely Marxist in their thinking. Time and time again they have > displayed their feelings of having a dominating government. In addition, Reno > (under Clinton's aproval) killed an entire group of people in Waco. They're > not just Marxist, they're evil. I still fail to see what 'MArxist' things you are associating with These two individuals. Marxism is not based around 'dominating government' as you have put it. Marxism deals mainly with economic principles, specifically the idea that wealth should be evenly distributed throughout society and that there should be a powerful government in place to oversee this distribution. That's quite an oversimplification, but essentially I get the feeling that Marxism has something to do with Fascism, which it does not. Now, if you were to say that Clinton and Reno are Fascists, I would agree with you in a second. I cannot, however, begin to even fathom how you got the idea that they were marxists. ben ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:57:48 -0700 From: "Platt, Caroline" Subject: RE: [ET: elian] joe wrote: it's no the U.S. itself, it is the leaders we have right now. Clinton is marxist. Reno is marxist. We are being run by marxists right now. how do you figure? in what way are reno and clinton marxist? caroline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 13:39:33 -0700 From: "Platt, Caroline" Subject: RE: [ET: elian] Hi - Marxism is an economic system where the workers own the means of production, that is, where businesses are owned by the people who work at them rather than by "owners". Therefore, the workers keep the revenue of the company, rather than a third party, and thus are not exploited by the owners. If you think that Reno and Clinton are evil and dominating, that is an opinion, but it is unrelated to Marxism. Meanwhile, I think it could be argued that all American administrations have engaged in behavior as bad or worse than Waco, not just this one. I saw an interesting documentary called "The Panama Deception" that focussed on the various hypocrisy/lying/"evil" policy of George Bush from when he ran the CIA on down through his presidency. Shady, wrong governance is not unique to Clinton or Janet Reno. Stuff to think about (I am just starting to, myself), Caroline - -----Original Message----- From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com [mailto:RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] Sent: April 26, 2000 4:25 PM To: Caroline.Platt@wbr.com; eda-thoughts@smoe.org Subject: Re: [ET: elian] In a message dated 4/26/00 11:54:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Caroline.Platt@wbr.com writes: << it's no the U.S. itself, it is the leaders we have right now. Clinton is marxist. Reno is marxist. We are being run by marxists right now. how do you figure? in what way are reno and clinton marxist? >> They are completely Marxist in their thinking. Time and time again they have displayed their feelings of having a dominating government. In addition, Reno (under Clinton's aproval) killed an entire group of people in Waco. They're not just Marxist, they're evil. no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 14:34:31 -0700 From: Summer Burton Subject: Re: ET: elian > > >you've had a problem with that before. > >That was an rude personal attack. How was that personal? It was in reference to your debating style on an email mailing list. That's far from personal. You never did explain "your" paper or admit it's actual source. I'm still wondering. It makes me hesitate to debate with you, because I either don't know what your sources are or I wonder if they are legit. > > Now we get these fishy pictures that don't >even look like Elian. I don't know what's going on with Elian's new home, but >if he's so happy, then let's see a video of him. Jesus. They do too "look like" Elian. The idea that they're faked... grr. It sounds to me like something Fox Mulder would be pursuing. Conspiracy theories. > > > First of all, we only listen to children in custody battles when the > >parents say they want their kids to decide. Otherwise, the parents > >fight it out and the kids have no say. And sexual abuse is obviously > >a COMPLETELY differen thing than this seperation from a loving parent > >situation. > >What are you talking about? If a kid screams "ABUSE!", someone gets locked >up. Kids are listened to all the time. In custody battles they are asked > where they want to go. Elian has stated where he wanted to go. That's why >Reno didn't want this to go to family court. She knew she would lose. The case doesn't belong in family court. There is no question as to the rights of a child's legal guardian and biological father over the distant relatives that took him after a wreck. It's a ridiculous concept. Kids are listened to in sexual abuse cases because generally little girls and boys don't make up stories about sex. But they aren't really paid any attention to in most custody battles (an example much, MUCH more relevant to this case than sexual abuse -- geez) unless the parents specifically "allow" the kid to have some say. Otherwise, the courts really don't put much stock in where a child believes he'd be happiest. >Yoiu have no idea what you're saying. We're not talking about what state in >the U.S. a kid lives in, we're talking about whether he is free or a slave. >Would you send him back to Nazi Germany just because his dad was there? >Castro is the same as Hitler, exactly the same. There is no difference. I'm sorry, but no world leader since Hitler can be said to be "exactly the same" as him. That is offensive and disrespectful. Massive, prejudiced, world-wide genocide with the intention of creating a "master race" is NOT exactly the same as dictatorship of one country. - -Summer - -- "there's a river of people that runs past my eyes and it's beautiful enough just to watch it go by" - -ani difranco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 14:20:24 -0700 From: Summer Burton Subject: Re: [ET: elian] Whether I agree with this or not, since you're quoting law, I must argue with you on law-terms: Minors don't have the same rights as adults. Period. That's been made clear in court case after court case. From the obvious (little kids can't drink beer or vote or just take up and leave their parents legally) to the controversial (first amendment rights are basically superceded by a principal or authority in American high schools, curfew laws, etcetera) to the unknown and strange (parents can make any minor of legal working age work, and the money that minor makes is by law owned by the parents) -- it's been shown over and over and over. Really, the only rights that six year old boy has are the right to a non-abusive family. The rest of his rights fall into the hands of his legal guardians -- poppa, in this case. Now... this is complicated for me because personally I am an advocate of youth rights and some laws changing, particularly for older teens. But it is ridiculous to act like we are violating this six year old's "right to leave his country" when six year olds don't even have a right to leave their families or schools or wherever their parents want them to be. - -Summer At 12:54 PM -0400 4/26/00, genben@usa.net wrote: >Alright, here's a quick way to clear up the whole Elian issue. > >There is a document, which the United States is subject to as a part of the >United Nations, called the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, otherwise >known as the UD. Here is what the UD says on this issue, quoted directly from >the text: > >Article 13. >(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the >borders of each state. > >(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to >return to his country. > >Article 14. >(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from >persecution. > >(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely >arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and >principles of the United Nations. > > >Elian Gonzales is not enjoying his rights according to the Universal >Declaration of Human Rights. This is not surprising, because the United States >has constantly ignored the Articles of the UD ever since it was accepted by >the General Assembly of the UN (again, which we are a member of, although >we're way behind on our dues). This is simply another example of how our >government ignores international law when it is inconvenient for our purposes. >We do, however, go out of our way to exert force through the UN and NATO when >it's in our best interests. I would love to see anyone compare the behavior of >the US government towards Hatian refugees and the behavior of the US >government (and NATO) on behalf of the ethnic Albanian refugees in >Kosovo/Yugoslavia. We have a long history of hipocrisy on the UD, and this new >case is just another example. Please read the UD at this address: >http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html >I think it will be apparent to anyone immediately just how bad the US is at >following these guidelines. > >ben > >____________________________________________________________________ >Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 - -- "there's a river of people that runs past my eyes and it's beautiful enough just to watch it go by" - -ani difranco ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:52:38 -0500 From: zerocool@sunlink.net (Niki) Subject: Re: ET: Re: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #162 Well they are doctors...of course they know a fetus can move...and since it is called a fetus is was a little older than six weeks. Which still, in my opinion isn't very old. But what they were trying to say (anit-abortionsists) was that women were thinking the thing inside them didn't really have SHAPE... that is wasn't a 'baby' yet. So I guess they didn't feel as bad about killing it.. It has more to do with the emotion of what the baby did than with the scientific facts... know what I mean? > >Exactly how old was the fetus? I mean, babies can move when they reach a >certain age in the womb. Sure, they lack motor skills, but they do have the >ability to move. And it's not as if the baby started speaking to the doctor >or anything. Since when is a fetus completely immobile? How is moving >something that they've never known a fetus to do? I mean, did I miss >something? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:59:49 -0500 From: zerocool@sunlink.net (Niki) Subject: ET: to joe about abortion Hmmm... so what do you think about a women being raped and getting impregnated. And YES I know that if you go to the hospital they give you a 72 hr pill but what about those that are too scared?? Should they have to live with that reminder every day of their lives? And what about when they go to get married-if they already aren't-then what? And if they are married...can you imagine fathering someone else's child-some sicko's child who hurt your wife? In most other circumstances I think the child should live...and I think people should get smart and use protection and be responsibe and such... but what about rape... and what about if the child has some type of disease? What if the mother has AIDS and is pregnant... should she let her baby be born to live a tragic life? (not saying that all people with aids lead tragic lives...but they do go through a lot of painful things once full blown aids occurs) I mean full blown aids in a child could conceivable happen at ages 5-whenever... Are you going to take the chance of your baby going through that hell? Niki ------------------------------ End of eda-thoughts-digest V3 #167 **********************************