From: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org (eda-thoughts-digest) To: eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Subject: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #166 Reply-To: eda-thoughts@smoe.org Sender: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk eda-thoughts-digest Wednesday, April 26 2000 Volume 03 : Number 166 * If you ever wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * eda-thoughts-digest-request@smoe.org with ONLY * the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #xxx or the like gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: ET: elian [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] ET: Re: indie rock [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] Re: [ET: Re: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #158] [genben@usa.net] Re: [ET: elian] [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] Re: [ET: elian] [genben@usa.net] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:21:31 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: Re: ET: elian In a message dated 4/25/00 9:07:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time, summer@boingyboingy.com writes: << OKAY. I have a lot to say to disagree with you (surprise!)... Go ahead, buddy, shoot >First of all, what the governemnt (The Clinton/Gore Administration) did was >not only completely uncalled for, but a crime against this child and his >family. >First of all, this child's "family" is most immediately his father >and young half-brother. The "relatives" we're talking about are >second cousins and great uncles -- I have trouble remembering the >names of my second cousins, and they are certianly not family to me >with the same intensity that my dad is.> Well you don't come from a country of slavery. You grew up here in freedom with your parents. Elian didn't have freedom. Instead, his mother gave her life to bring her son to freedom. Here, he found freedom among his extended family, who have been the most loving family he's known, and these are the people he has chosen to be with. I don't know about you, but I remember being six, and I understood a lot. The justice department is acting like six-year-olds are chimpanzees that can't think. In addition, his mother CHOSE America for him, and gave up her life so that he might be here. Have some respect for this woman's sacrafice. We all agree that he should be with his dad, but what we don't want is for him to live with a brick wall in his face in Cuba. Ultimately, his Dad has no freedom. He is being used as a puppet by Castro. Ever seen pictures of this poor man? His eyes are black and weary. He looks like he hasn't slept in days. If Clinton had the courage of an ant he'd tell Castro to screw himself, and then allow this man to live here in America, rather than allow Cuban officials to hold him as a prisoner in Washington. God, this administration is so immoral. >What CNN won't tell you is that more children were found washed ashore at the >same time as Elian, and they were allowed to remain here, despite the fact > that several of them had parents/a parent back in Cuba. > First of all: you say CNN "won't" tell us that, but you don't tell us >where YOU heard it. Bad debate style. Always quoth your sources, It was reported on Fox News whent hey first found him. >you've had a problem with that before. That was an rude personal attack. > him back, and so, Castro, not the father, demanded Elian be returned to Cuba. >I'm pretty sure his dad wanted him back "too". His dad has nothing to say about anything. If Castro tells him to jump, he asks how high. Do you not understand that this is a man who lives without freedom? This is a man who has no say about any aspect of his life. > from the family who he loves, and take such good care of him. >See above. Besides, he loves his dad too. That's obvious. You're right, he does love his Dad, but this little boy has said time and time again that he wants to be with his Dad, but not in Cuba. You see, Castro wants them both in Cuba. I'm sure if his father had freedom, then he would choose to live in the U.S. But Castro won't allow it. >The government began negotiating with Reno and with Cuban Ambassadors. Elian >was happy where he was, and said himself he wanted to say. >Mmm... Well, first of all most republicans were saying a few years >ago that children SHOULD NOT have the right to "divorice" their >parents unless there was a physical abuse situation. It's stated >pretty plainly in the contract with America that parents, unless >physically abusive (which Elian's father wasn't, obviously) know >what's best for their kids, and their rights should be upheld. >Now there's a turnaround, simply because they like to disagree with Clinton. This has nothing to do with that. We're talking about whether or not a little boy can live a life of freedom or slavery, happiness or utter sorrow. In Cuba the kids spend their mornings in indoctrination camp, then they go out a work in potato fields the rest of the day. At night they have political indoctrination speeches. He won't ever even see his father. In Cuba children belong to Castro. I don't understand why this is so hard for liberals to understand. No offense, but please, WAKE UP! >Second of all, of COURSE Elian was told to say that. Duh. That >"family" wanted him, and a six year old boy is a pretty moldable >thing. I don't think he was given all the facts. Hmm. Well, he spent his life as a young child in slavery. Now he's had a taste of freedom, and these are the people he trully loves. Where was his father when his mother was in despair, and going out into the ocean to escape with her little boy? Hmm? To act like this Miami family, who has been overwhelmingly loving to this child is involved in some kind of brain-washing thing is utterly shameful. Back when he was with them, we saw videos of a happy, joyous little boy everyday. Now we get these fishy pictures that don't even look like Elian. I don't know what's going on with Elian's new home, but if he's so happy, then let's see a video of him. The reality is, he's probably miserable. Any child who was taken from the people he loves and violently at that, would be severely scarred. God, this is evil. >If we listen to >children in countless sexual abuse and custody battles, then why not listen >to Elian's wishes? > First of all, we only listen to children in custody battles when the >parents say they want their kids to decide. Otherwise, the parents >fight it out and the kids have no say. And sexual abuse is obviously >a COMPLETELY differen thing than this seperation from a loving parent >situation. What are you talking about? If a kid screams "ABUSE!", someone gets locked up. Kids are listened to all the time. In custody battles they are asked where they want to go. Elian has stated where he wanted to go. That's why Reno didn't want this to go to family court. She knew she would lose. >understandable. But this is not what Reno wanted, She wanted to have the >child handed over amidst armed guards and Cuban officials. >This isn't logical. it's very logical >As a writer, I know that every character, even >the "bad ones", have to have some motivation. Do you really think >Janet Reno is "evil" and "wanted" the child to be handed over amidst >armed guards? No, there's details you are leaving out. That doesn't >make sense. The truth is, Reno is a marxist. She has proven this time and time again in her political poistions and in her actions (remember waco?). Her motivation is that she wants to be all nice and chummy with Castro, cause he's a Marxist like her. Reno's biggest problem is that she doesn't care. She doesn't care what happens to this boy, she just wants to make Castro happy.Can you imagine Reagan? Reagan would've told Castro to go eat it. This child would be happy and free right now if it wasn't for Clinton/Gore and their corruption. >We haven't heard the last >of this little boy. >Well, he seems pretty happy and quite frankly... there's really no >more issue, now that he's back with his daddy. It doesn't matter what >country dad lives in, he has all the rights by both countries laws. Are you trully so blind? Have you fallen for the governments lies? This dad has no rights in Cuba. In Cuba, the parents are given no rights. The constitution states that children of all ages belong solely to the government. You have no idea if this child is happy. Those pictures are so fake, it's a joke. For one thing, Elian was very tan in those videos back in Miami. His hair was shorter too. In those pictures his skin is almost white and his hair hangs down over his fore-head. If this kid is so happy, then let's see videos of him, like we did in Miami. We knew he was happy there. > It doesn't MATTER if these distant relatives can "provide" for Elian >"better" in a "better" country. My great uncle and second cousins >might be able to prove in some court that they have more money and >live in a better state than my parents, but it doesn't mean anything. >You can't just take a little boy away from his dad because someone >else can take care of him "better". It's wrong. It's so wrong.. Yoiu have no idea what you're saying. We're not talking about what state in the U.S. a kid lives in, we're talking about whether he is free or a slave. Would you send him back to Nazi Germany just because his dad was there? Castro is the same as Hitler, exactly the same. There is no difference. And this isn't the end. Congress is going to begin an investigation and hearings. I for one hope that this boy is granted the freedom he and his mother wanted for him. -Summer >> - -Joe no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:34:41 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: ET: Re: indie rock In a message dated 4/26/00 8:24:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, genben@usa.net writes: << She is pretty indie. >> Yes, I totally agree. I wasn't really talking about her, I meant like Jewel. I tend to look at Jewel as somewhat packaged. But Ani, god, the woman is a musical saint. What she has done as an indie artist is awe inspiring. Well, I am real into a lot of British stuff. 4AD Records is great, especially their older stuff like Pale Saints, Lush, The Pixies, Throwing Muses and what not. Ofcourse, that's all legendary stuff now. New 4AD like Mojave 3, Tanya Donelly and The Breeders is awfully wonderful, you oughta carry it. I also like a lot of stuff on Shelflife Records, such as The Arrogants. Then ofcourse, Sonic Youth is brilliant. One thing you really need to carry is these three albums: 10,000 Maniacs THE EARTH PRESSED FLAT (Bare/None), The Innocence Mission BIRDS OF MY NEIGHBORHOOD (Kneeling Elephant) and Freedy Johnston BLUE DAYS BLACK NIGHTS. This is the best new indie rock coming out. I don't know if any of you lsiten to new 10,000 Maniacs stuff, but it is damn awesome. I think you should carry stuff by Paige and Colorwall, both fabulous indie bands from L.A. And then, nothing is as good as The Sundays. Catherine Wheel just released a new album called "Wishville", perhaps you should look into that. Then, I love The Smashing Pumpkins, their older stuff more than the new, but their newest album is really the best thing they've done since SIAMESE DREAM. Take care Joseph no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 00 11:23:55 EDT From: genben@usa.net Subject: Re: [ET: Re: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #158] RedWoodenBeads@aol.com wrote: > > << That's why I'm so grateful to people like Jewel and Ani Difranco, > who try to further this "higher conciousness" effort >> > > How is that? To a lot of people, their exposure to the music and images of people like Jewel and Ani is their first taste of people who believe in the triumph of the human spirit and express it in their music. > I would say the real artists that get the higher awareness are the indie > bands, and I mean the REAL indie stuff. How exactly is it that you don't classify ani difranco as "REAL indie"? I happen to manage an independent record store. While I am not particularly an Ani fan, i do enjoy her early, more folk-oriented stuff, particularly her self-titled album. I also love both of the records she made with Utah Phillips, who is one of my personal heroes. She has run her own record label for about ten years now, doing most of her own distribution for the first five or so years. She is now distributed by Koch International, which is hardly one of the 'majors' (in the record business, the 'majors' essentially are Sony, BMG, WEA [Warner Brothers], and Universal). She recently released an album by Arto Lindsay, a brilliant musician with ties to some of the most influential bands and musicians in the history of indie and avant rock, as the first non-ani release on Righteous Babe (her label). She is also releasing a recording of a Woody Guthrie tribute concert soon. She is pretty indie. However, I am curious. I like to know what people listen to, seeing as how it's my job and all. What bands are you in to? Any labels in particular that you follow? I'm honestly interested in this, by the way, I'm not trying to lure you in to some sort of "let's make Joe look stupid" trap. I have seen your site, and while i also love most of the bands you mention (mazzy star rules. hope sandoval is a goddess), they are mostly major-label bands. A lot of them made records for Elektra, Geffen, and related labels. These are precursors of the sound we call "indie rock", but there are a million bands out there working overtime touring, promoting their own releases without the benefit of big-time budgets and tour support. They book their own shows, they sell their own records, they work hard as hell. this, to me, is indie, and I admire it. I mean, Frank Black (Black Francis, Charles Thompson, whatever) puts out sub-par records (the first one was okay, and each has a few good tracks, but i mean overall) now and sells most of them simply because of the Pixies' fame. Kim Deal signed with Elektra for the Breeders' stuff she did post-Pixies (although Kim and her sister Kelly did have the Breeders before Kim was in the Pixies). The Pixies were one of my favorite bands of all time (any of you ever see them live? a truly religious experience), but I must say that after they broke up, they did do a bit of selling out. Not much, but a bit. anyway, I'm done rambling. ben ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 14:06:51 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: Re: [ET: elian] In a message dated 4/26/00 9:55:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, genben@usa.net writes: << I think it will be apparent to anyone immediately just how bad the US is at following these guidelines. >> it's no the U.S. itself, it is the leaders we have right now. Clinton is marxist. Reno is marxist. We are being run by marxists right now. This administration cannot end soon enough. no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 00 12:54:40 EDT From: genben@usa.net Subject: Re: [ET: elian] Alright, here's a quick way to clear up the whole Elian issue. There is a document, which the United States is subject to as a part of the United Nations, called the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, otherwise known as the UD. Here is what the UD says on this issue, quoted directly from the text: Article 13. (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state. (2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country. Article 14. (1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution. (2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations. Elian Gonzales is not enjoying his rights according to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This is not surprising, because the United States has constantly ignored the Articles of the UD ever since it was accepted by the General Assembly of the UN (again, which we are a member of, although we're way behind on our dues). This is simply another example of how our government ignores international law when it is inconvenient for our purposes. We do, however, go out of our way to exert force through the UN and NATO when it's in our best interests. I would love to see anyone compare the behavior of the US government towards Hatian refugees and the behavior of the US government (and NATO) on behalf of the ethnic Albanian refugees in Kosovo/Yugoslavia. We have a long history of hipocrisy on the UD, and this new case is just another example. Please read the UD at this address: http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html I think it will be apparent to anyone immediately just how bad the US is at following these guidelines. ben ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ------------------------------ End of eda-thoughts-digest V3 #166 **********************************