From: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org (eda-thoughts-digest) To: eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Subject: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #165 Reply-To: eda-thoughts@smoe.org Sender: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk eda-thoughts-digest Wednesday, April 26 2000 Volume 03 : Number 165 * If you ever wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * eda-thoughts-digest-request@smoe.org with ONLY * the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #xxx or the like gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. Today's Subjects: ----------------- ET: elian [Katherine Alexandra ] Re: [ET: Re: Re: underpopulation] [genben@usa.net] Re: [ET: abortion pic?] [genben@usa.net] Re: ET: elian ["Seth D. Fulmer" ] ET: Re: killing babies [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] ET: Re: beautifully put [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 08:45:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Katherine Alexandra Subject: ET: elian elian... i live in fl and when the whole elian thing happened, it actualy just sounded like another incident. most of my friends in palm beach were cuban and came on rafts, i spent most of time as a child in their houses hearing stories of cuba, learning about the culture, going to their celebrations. we would always go to little havana bc the rest of their family was there. i learned a great deal about cuba from this experiance. this is the thing though, i also have lived in a post communist country. i realize that russian communisim is different then cuban, but both forms have americans yelling: BETTER DEAD THEN RED! and it does go against everything, as a nation, we believe in. BUT i dont think it's our right to say where a little boy belongs when his biological parents wants him and is still alive. the father relationship is so important, a third cousin and uncle can't give it to him, elian needs his dad. and i know, cuba isn't exactly what we consider great, they make $12 a month, the whole thing, but there aren't school shootings in cuba, there is low crime, and no matter what, it doesn't really matter where a child is brought up as long as the child has love surrounding him. and yes, i think the child will have love from his father and step mother. just bc we dont agree with their political views, just bc it is an election year, we shouldn't stop a child from being with his father. in my opinion the miami relatives were the ones brainwashing him with their tommy clothes, interviews, disney, and that video tape of him telling his dad off...please that was obviously staged. i just believe, claiming the virgin mary is in his house is brainwashing, not going home to his dad in cuba. also this has to deal with sensationalism. keep that in mind, we blow things out of proportion in the media constantly. things are turned into the countries favorite. we thrive off of this entertainment news, we get stuck on one subject and obess over it as a nation. that's the real root of the problem here, the media gets involved, which is their job and they are basicaly giving what the people are asking for, with supply and demand. but just keep that in mind. love kat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 00 12:15:45 EDT From: genben@usa.net Subject: Re: [ET: Re: Re: underpopulation] "Kevin B. Pease" wrote: > But, as for whether or not we should be sending the boy back to an > "oppressive country", there's a rather interesting parallel between the > oppressiveness of a communist government and the oppressiveness of our "Just > Do It, Hungry Why Wait, Do The Dew, Kid Tested Mother Approved" capitalist > society, isn't there? Choose your form of mind control: industry or > government... > let's be honest -- is there much > difference in the degree of "oppression" and "mind control" little Elian > would be subjected to, regardless of where he lives? An excellent point for discussion. I recommend a book by a Canadian (tara?) journalist named Naomi Klein called 'No Logo'. It's all about the use of brands in today's advertising community. Basically, it overviews the massive shift of corporate resources (money, basically) away from production and into marketing. Essentially, consumers are getting progressively lower-quality product that is ever-increasingly marketed to them (did you read my post on advertising/propaganda?). It's a very interesting book. As for my opinion on the subject, well, I have a few. Cuba is a difficult situation. It is another country where the relatively intelligent idea of communism was put in to effect by a militarily-led government and the experiment failed to produce the desired response. I subscribe to the idea that communism cannot work if there are people "in charge." I believe that the commune is an important social unit (as well as a natural one), but that state-run communism is destined to fail. Only when people voluntarily enter into a commune will it have even a chance of success. When they are forced to do so by people who then exploit their labor (a la capitalist "fat-cats"), the system simply cannot work. Fidel Castro was a visionary, but his vision didn't quite come off. He was better as an opposition leader, a figure to rally a revolution around, and has turned out to be a poor excuse for a national leader. As far as the American climate, well, to put it simply: We the People have no idea what is done with the money we give to government and corporations on a daily basis. The "global economy" and "global community" that many Americans champion are deadly for many people on this globe. There are plenty of organizations (the US government, the UN, NATO, IMF, WTO, I could go on) that go out of their way to harm people in developing (third world, opressed, underpriveleged, whatever) countries. This is the TRUTH. Do not simply belive people who say "Well, it's more complicated than that." It isn't. Well, it is, but not really. Government and international organizations and corporations have decided that their pockets and power and portfolios are more important than people. The "global community" is harsh and dictatorial, and the United States is at the forefront of it. If you examine the practices of this, Our Fine Nation, in conflict situations over the past, oh, FOREVER, you will notice that we have killed LOTS OF PEOPLE, and mostly for reasons of expanding industry, political power, capital growth and financial gain for those in positions of so-called "power." Most of the people/nations we clash with (Hussein, Marcos, Noriega) are people/nations we have armed ourselves when it was convenient for us. We supplied Iraq with weapons to fight Iran in their long-standing war! Now they use those weapons against us, and we are outraged! Examine this link for more on this: www.middleeast.org My essential point is that we are led by a bunch of people, both corporate and political, who feel no moral obligation to anyone. We are not going after Elian because we care about his welfare, we are going after him because it is a good opportunity to do some Castro-bashing. The fact is, we jump at any opportunity to send harsh words and deeds to our enemies. If we suddenly discovered that Cuba had tons of oil underneath of it that it was willing to sell to us at really cheap prices, we would be hailing Castro as a liberator of people form the opressive regime of yore. Trust me, it's all about business. This is a topic I never tire of discussing (obviously). I realize I've been taking up some serious space today, and I thank any of you who bother to read what I have to say. Any of you who would like to talk about this stuff, send me some mail. ben ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ------------------------------ Date: 26 Apr 00 12:34:43 EDT From: genben@usa.net Subject: Re: [ET: abortion pic?] mandabear4@juno.com wrote: > i didn't see that pic but i would think it's really gross. Know what > makes me mad? instead of showing dead fetus's and such, i think the media > should show real live babies...happy healthy ones and then ask the > question of abortion. I am 100% pro-choice...but instead of putting down > ppl who want abortions and showing dead babies i think it would be better > to show the positives of having the baby...show ppl what they could be > missing out on...i tihnk there are more tactful ways to get the message > across then showing bloody and dead fetus's Thank you! I am pro-choice mainly becuase I don't think it's any of my business. But I am pro-life for myself, because I think that I would never make the choice to kill any animal life, be it fetal or not. However, I am not a woman. I will never have to make this choice. So I am pro-choice. I don't think any government has the right to tell anyone what they can and can't do to themselves (or at all for that matter). I do feel that the message should be positive rather than negative, and I'm glad to see that someone agrees with me. the pro-life movement has been centered around morbid thought (dead babies, killing doctors) for too long. Why not accept that people have a choice in this matter and then try to educate them about ways in which they can safely bring children in to this world? To simply deny that people have the option to abort a pregnancy is a weak solution to a complex problem. ben ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 13:52:17 -0400 From: "Seth D. Fulmer" Subject: Re: ET: elian Ok, you can all read Kat's message below if you so wish :) My tiff isn't with Communism. Communism is an economic system. I don't care how you run your pocketbook, but my thing is with the dictatorship. If the US suddenly decided to go to a Democratic(or Republican or whatever term we're using now for our government) Dictatorship, I'd simply have to go France or England. Admittedly in England you don't have as many rights as in America(very little free speech from what I understand, but I don't know for a fact), but I believe that people should be allowed to live and have whatever rights they so choose within their private space(which you do have in England to a degree). In America: (provided these activity does not "leak" out of the private space) 1.) minors can drink(alcohol) if permitted by adults within a private household. Adults can drink as well, as people know but to drink in public you need a liquor license. This is an acceptable tradeoff. 2.) Anybody can smoke, swear, curse the government down, commit blasphemy, heresy, any form of religious sin(with the exception of murder) within a private household under their ownership or granted permission. 3.) Anybody can listen to whatever music at whatever volume they wish, speak whatever language they wish, write whatever they wish, participate in any form of communication. 4.) Americans are granted the right that whatever communication occurs over the telephone lines, whether vocal or binary data(internet), or sent via the postal service will not be used to turn them into an enemy of the state, provided they don't participate in other criminal activities to warrant those communications monitored. People even perform such activities as S&M, which performed in public would be considered assault and battery, yet within the home unless one of the persons don't agree with it, it's fine. If you sell something from your home, your home is no longer a private place. If you buy something, it's in a public place(as per the last statement) and hence must be legal. It's legal to produce things in your home though that are illegal if you have the proper materials. However, in most dictatorships, the government can simply change laws without notification or right to appeal. People in dictatorships have rights only because the dictator(s) grant(s) them, not because they're human law. I could care less what the economic system is, but everybody should have the certain inalienable human rights. Kat, I see your point however about the media. I guess I'm not getting the whole story but I have always been against the Cuban government since I heard that in (I believe) 5th grade, just didn't have a reason to get upset about it. The father and son should be together I agree. That's why I pointed in my essay that the father should come to America, but then again it's none of my business as it's their life. It's the rights that Elian will be living with(i.e. no rights) that I disagree with. But there's nothing I can do, nor should I either, so I will step down off my podium. Take care and Have a Good Day! :) Seth D. Fulmer mailto:kaosking@voicenet.com ============================================ At 08:45 AM 4/26/00 -0700, Katherine Alexandra wrote: >this is the thing though, i also have lived in a post >communist country. i realize that russian communisim >is different then cuban, but both forms have americans >yelling: BETTER DEAD THEN RED! and it does go against >everything, as a nation, we believe in. BUT i dont >think it's our right to say where a little boy belongs >when his biological parents wants him and is still >alive. the father relationship is so important, a >third cousin and uncle can't give it to him, elian >needs his dad. and i know, cuba isn't exactly what we >consider great, they make $12 a month, the whole >thing, but there aren't school shootings in cuba, >there is low crime, and no matter what, it doesn't >really matter where a child is brought up as long as >the child has love surrounding him. and yes, i think >the child will have love from his father and step >mother. just bc we dont agree with their political >views, just bc it is an election year, we shouldn't >stop a child from being with his father. in my opinion >the miami relatives were the ones brainwashing him >with their tommy clothes, interviews, disney, and that >video tape of him telling his dad off...please that >was obviously staged. i just believe, claiming the >virgin mary is in his house is brainwashing, not going >home to his dad in cuba. > >also this has to deal with sensationalism. keep that >in mind, we blow things out of proportion in the media >constantly. things are turned into the countries >favorite. we thrive off of this entertainment news, we >get stuck on one subject and obess over it as a >nation. that's the real root of the problem here, the >media gets involved, which is their job and they are >basicaly giving what the people are asking for, with >supply and demand. but just keep that in mind. > >love >kat > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. >http://invites.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 10:42:44 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: ET: Re: killing babies In a message dated 4/25/00 9:01:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org writes: << killing babies. thought my title would grab a little >attention. this just my thought about the abortion >debate: we shouldn't have one. it's an extremely >passionate debate and i have rarely seen anyone really >listen to the other party when it comes to this. Yes, I suppose we could've not talked about the Jews and Christians being murdered by Nazis here in America back during WWII, or I suppose we could keep quiet about slavery back in the days of the Civil War as well. >personaly, i am prochoice. i understand prolife but i >think that takes away my right to make that decision. No one, I repeat NO ONE has the right to choose whether or not another human being lives or dies, that right belongs to God (however you look at God) and God alone. I suppose the law against murder takes my right away to choose whether or not I have to have an annoying neighbor or a mother-in-law I can't stand. >but i know this debate could go on forever bc it is >extremely complex (it is not as cut and dry as wanting >a child or not, or how long the women is pregnant. It's very simple. Children deserve to live and that's all there is to it. I don't understand how anyone can defend abortion. It is the indefensible. > some people are so against it they refuse to use birth >control, others are so for it that they don't believe >there should be a cut off date). i just wanted to say >that it seems a bit absurd for us to get into this >debate, just trying to stop flames before they really >start. ok, i'm a coward. but i really just want some >safe conversation for a little bit. >> I have been involved in the pro-life effort since I was like 9 years old. This is not an issue to be quiet about. The murder of children will never be justified no matter how quiet you are about it. I'm sorry, bu murder is murder, whether you're -9 or 90. no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 10:43:57 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: ET: Re: beautifully put In a message dated 4/25/00 9:01:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org writes: << Its not gross. Its beautiful. Its amazing. >> Beautifully put. no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ End of eda-thoughts-digest V3 #165 **********************************