From: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org (eda-thoughts-digest) To: eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Subject: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #144 Reply-To: eda-thoughts@smoe.org Sender: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk eda-thoughts-digest Wednesday, April 19 2000 Volume 03 : Number 144 * If you ever wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * eda-thoughts-digest-request@smoe.org with ONLY * the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #xxx or the like gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. Today's Subjects: ----------------- ET: Re: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #143 [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] ET: Re: population [RedWoodenBeads@aol.com] ET: overpopulation, gays, thoughts [Katherine Alexandra ] ET: Re: eda-thoughts-digest [Cassidy831@aol.com] Re: ET: #140, gays, religion, aids, kara [zerocool@sunlink.net (Niki)] ET: 'nother question [RJonthego@aol.com] RE: ET: just some thoughts [courtney gordon ] ET: the joys of packing [Katherine Alexandra ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:23:15 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: ET: Re: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #143 In a message dated 4/19/00 11:54:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org writes: << what i meant by "everyone is bi" is, i highly doubt that someone has absolutely never, ever been in some way attracted to the opposite sex. some people flip out and are like, "oh my god, i'm gay!" (as if that's a bad thing, but i won't get into that.) but come on now. i mean, i can think girls are pretty, dig some girls more than others, or whatever—it may mean something and it may not. this culture is so so so incredibly stressed out about gender roles. i agree with whoever was saying this...that girls are allowed to be much more open than men. why can't guys ever say other guys are hot? they end up saying "well i don't notice that stuff," but then why don't they notice it? why can't they touch each other other than to hit each other or high-five? the standards are so vastly different, and i must say that in this case i think we women have the better hand. i can BE physical with my girl friends, (and guy friends too, though that can be different,) without being bi/gay/whatever. >> Your post was rather interesting, in that it seemed to be completely focused on sexuality as a constant aspect of life. Have you ever thought that sex isn't something constantly running through everyone's mind while they are hanging out with their friends? You say: "why can't they (guys) touch each other other than to hit each other or high-five?". Who says they want to? The reason guys don't do that isn't because society forbids them to, it's cause they don't want to. I don't understand what it is with all of you saying "well, everyone has same-sex attractions at some point", because I never have, and I doubt a huge number of people really have either. The reason girls touch eachother and act all "girly" is because they're girls. This may be a little suprising, but there are differences between males and females, in fact there are HUGE differences. You can sit in front of a little boy or little girl with a toy truck and a doll and the boy will take the truck and the girl will take the doll. That's just how it is. Girls like to giggle and touch and stuff that girls do, guys like to hang out and slap eachother high fives. It has nothing to do with society, it's the way people are. Think about it. What is society? Is it some big monster making people act a certain way? Society is people, and people make their own society. As a general rule, people have rejected homosexuality and embrace heterosexuality, because that's what they want, not because "society" makes them. Let's get past this illusion that society "hampers" people sexuality. no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:29:29 EDT From: RedWoodenBeads@aol.com Subject: ET: Re: population In a message dated 4/19/00 11:54:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org writes: << > The over-population thing just isn't legit. There aren't as many people in > the world as the EPA would have us think. Oh pray tell, give us your sources... where can you prove that there aren't over 6 billion people in the world? Who says that, other than you? How did they get their information? Why is the EPA lying? It's obvious, the world is huge. We could never overrun it. The EPA is a waste of tax dollars. > In addition, a heterosexual couple > bringing children into the world is never a problem. Every human being is of > infinite value, and there are never "too many". Every LIFE is of infinite value, and by overrunning the world with our species, we're bringing down many more, who are just as valuable (objectively) as our life. Human life is more valuable than animal life. We can't sustain ourselves like this very long, so I guess you're saying that everyone having kids (and not adopting) now should be able to because those children's lives have value, but 400 or 1,000 years from now when the human race destroys itself, those lives that will be lost AREN'T valuable? The human race will destroy itself? My, now isn't that a radical statement. Pray tell, do you have any EVIDENCE to back up this wild theory? I don't neccesarilly think that individuals in American choosing not to have one or two kids helps much, but not considering the population explosion a problem is ridiculous. >> What's rediculous is abortion (the murder of a child) being legal while smashing an eagle's egg will send you up the river for years. no longer cradled in gravity's memory still in and spinning in spiral drifts of endlessness spinning in torment into the garden of light - -Pale Saints "A Thousand Stars Burst Open" http://www.chickpages.com/musicmania/joepages ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:29:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Katherine Alexandra Subject: ET: overpopulation, gays, thoughts ok...with the overpopulation thing: YES THIS IS A HUGE PROBLEM. but it is a larger problem in underdeveloping countries bc that is where most of the growth is going on. one main reason is lack of birth control, which is becoming easier to access but because of beliefs, a lot of people feel it is "wrong" to use birth control. the most common situation now, i believe in brazil, is that women have to secretly take birth control or their husbands hit them and get angry. they believe this is against the bible and they are very religious. what can we do about it? mainly just education and wider accessibility towards birth control. but it is a problem bc we are overwhelming the planet. WE REALLY DONT NEED THIS MANY PEOPLE. SAM...awesome post. also kelly and summer. i just feel that we, as a nation, are very prejudice bc of not allowing marriage with homosexuality. you would think that by now we would be a bit more progressive. kat gays,. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 16:27:45 -0500 From: "Summer Burton" Subject: ET: Re: Re: population > It's obvious, the world is huge. We could never overrun it. The EPA is a > waste of tax dollars. That's the most ridiculous thing you've said so far. The world is a very concrete size and it's like an elevator -- that weight an elevator will support may seem like a lot, but when you're crowding people in there the numbers add up. There is not infinite space on our planet. > Human life is more valuable than animal life. Maybe this is something you just take for granted cause it's been fed to you from day one, but... WHY? I understand you as an individual valuing your own species over another, but unbiasedly, why is human life more valuable than animal life? > The human race will destroy itself? My, now isn't that a radical statement. > Pray tell, do you have any EVIDENCE to back up this wild theory? Not that radical. Let's poll scientists and see if they think that unless we drastically change some of our behaviours, we will eventually destroy ourselves. I think they would say yes. > What's rediculous is abortion (the murder of a child) being legal while > smashing an eagle's egg will send you up the river for years. Well, starting from MY belief that all life is equal, eagles are threatened and humans are overpopulated, so that makes perfect sense. Besides, a mother ending the development of their own fetus is different from one species deliberately destroying the fetus of another. Whether or not I think abortion is morally right (I don't) or should be legal (I do) is beside the point -- the two acts aren't comparable (not to mention not related to our discussion). - -Summer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 19:04:55 EDT From: Cassidy831@aol.com Subject: ET: Re: eda-thoughts-digest ~Not saying i agree or disagree with what anyone has said so far about this ~topic but I'm going to throw in something connecting this topic and the ~religion topic. In the Bible, God punished a town full of homosexuals. ~Some people seem to think this is where aids came from...like an early ~version of it... Just wondering what everyone thinks of that... Nothing ~against homo/heterosexuals... :) I've got a gay uncle ralph... kewl ~guy. And I would be interested in hearing some male opinion on this ~topic... later! :) ~Nik Alright, I've basically just skimmed through the posts about religion and such, because I didn't want to offend anyone. But, I just can't pass this one up. Nik, I'm sorry, and I've never spoke to you in my life, but I'll tell you right now if you actually think that there was a town full of homosexuals, God found out and then punished them because you read it in the Bible, then you have problems that I couldn't begin to identify. If you're just bringing up a different view, then I'm sorry. Sex is sex. Why should it matter if it's homosexual, bisexual....I mean, I'm not saying you should run out and fuck a monkey(ew!), but come on. ~if i fall in love with someone, it's for the ~person not for their penis or vagina. does that make ~any sense? i understand how people could only think of ~people of the opposite sex, but i think it's important ~to ask why. is it bc you have been brought up to only ~have feelings for the opposite? Kat, I have to agree with you here. I am by no stretch even the slightest bit bisexual, (dont get any ideas James) but I can understand not wanting to limit your chances of love to any specific group of people. There's a movie called Chasing Amy. If you haven't seen it, I seriously think you should rent it. It deals with exactly what we're all talking about here. It is impossible to pick out each and every way that religion has effected the way we've all grown up. I'm not talking about going to church, or even what religion you are. The basis of society is built around church values. The fact that there are people in the world who actually believe that AIDS came from homosexuals, and that a God would not approve of the love between two women or men makes me sick. But this is how things are, and no amount of posting is going to change the fact that there will always be these kinds of idiotic beliefs. Phew! Well everyone sorry that my first *real* post had to be so negative, but I couldn't resist. :o) James, I'm moving up, now you've got to get me to write, post, AND run. ha! - --Cassie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 20:07:49 -0500 From: zerocool@sunlink.net (Niki) Subject: Re: ET: #140, gays, religion, aids, kara and when you >quote the bible...does it really matter? bc if you >dont believe in the bible, then quoting doesn't really >change anything, ya know? I believe the Bible...just didn't want to offend anyone. > >religion and gays...i think sometimes we are so afraid >of homosexuality bc we all get those feelings. afraid of WHAT feelings? I know people who are homosexual. And that's it. They just like people of their own sex... that's fine for them. >aids...gays creating aids? i hate that arguement. I said that in the Bible God sent a disease upon a community of gay men. They all died from it. Some people believe it was an early form of AIDS. Gays didn't create it. God created it to punish them for being gay. ****************************************************************************** Check out my Website at: >http://www.refmaker.com/members/legomoney.shtml ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 20:39:59 EDT From: RJonthego@aol.com Subject: ET: 'nother question I was wondering... does anyone have any good writing excercises/prompts that they use? I was missing my copy of Writing Down The Bones by Natalie Goldman (a MUST read) and thought that maybe some of you have good starters or ideas for some. just a-wonderin' roya "hey jupiter, nothing's been the same..so are you gay are you blue, thought we both could use a friend to run to.." tori amos ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 20:44:15 -0400 (EDT) From: courtney gordon Subject: RE: ET: just some thoughts Dear Angels, This is really just a response to Kat's post, but I decided why not post it because this could turn into another conversation. That, and I have very little to no shame anyway. I know some of this will be TMI for some of you, but I don't really care. I know what Kat means about girls feeling obligated to shave their legs. I don't see the point, and I don't unless I have some big night planned and/or have someone to impress. In which case I don't, because every guy and girl in my life likes me either way. And I'm not ashamed of having my period because why on earth should I? It's not like no other girl gets their period so I don't see it as a hush hush kind of thing. And about the gay marriages... who has the audacity to keep two people from being married if they love each other? What gives that person the right to say "Well, fine you love each other, but you're both girls or you're both guys, so you can't be married." Really now, that sounds just about ridiculous. if I someday fall in love with a woman (or get back together with my ex girlfriend) I want to know that if I want to, I can marry her. just a random thought Courtney ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 19:00:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Katherine Alexandra Subject: ET: the joys of packing THE JOYS OF PACKING pieces of me scattered on the floor into brown square boxes every moment that i thought somehow wouldn't go away that corsage from prom 2 years back now nicely put away what once was reality is now a memory all distorted and edited and forgotten i held so tightly onto the past. my first shoes the one's that i got when we were living in colorado and i wouldnt wear em' until daddy put bells on the laces. i still carry them around with me. the trophy i got for participation the poster from my first play the duck that we stole from my neighbors yard, the boxes from poland the bottlecaps, urgent napkin poems everything all the chains that hold me back all the moments of glory wrapped up in bubble paper taped, put away, hidden why do i carry these memories along with me? i want to let go of those shoes with the bells and those photos of me when i was little, laughing with her, when she was pretty i want to let go of those bottlecaps and dolls i want to forget how it hurt how he pressed how you held my hand. i want to forget these pieces of who i have become i want to let go of who i was __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 22:26:55 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: kara garbe Subject: ET: Re: eda-thoughts-digest V3 #143 i'm sorry to everyone who is sick of this conversation. i wanted to let this topic die, but i just couldn't let some of these statements pass. those of you who don't want to read any more of the homosexuality/culture discussion, just ignore this post of mine. joe wrote: > Your post was rather interesting, in that it seemed to be completely focused > on sexuality as a constant aspect of life. Have you ever thought that sex > isn't something constantly running through everyone's mind while they are > hanging out with their friends? You say: "why can't they (guys) touch each > other other than to hit each other or high-five?". Who says they want to? The > reason guys don't do that isn't because society forbids them to, it's cause > they don't want to. the point isn't that sex is going through everyone's minds all the time. don't you like to be physical with your female friends? doesn't giving someone a hug, or getting one, make you feel better? it's human nature to crave physical closeness to others, and the fact is that it's socially acceptable for women to hug while it's rather questionable for men to hug, because any physical contact becomes sexualized, perhaps unconsciously. but, the fact is that if most people see two men walking with their arms linked, they're going to wonder if they're gay. if they see two women walking with their arms linked, they're probably not going to question that. > I don't understand what it is with all of you saying > "well, everyone has same-sex attractions at some point", because I never > have, and I doubt a huge number of people really have either. I've actually never been attracted to women either, but a large enough portion of the list has stepped forward to admit homoerotic thoughts (or homosexual experiences) that i'm believing that there's credibility in the claim that most (*most*, not all) people have such thoughts. and i'm not entirely sure that my non-homosexual thoughts are simply just because it never even crossed my mind to think about women that way. since this conversation got started, it's made me think about bisexuality and actually start to wonder if i could ever be attracted to women, something that i've never seriously considered. by the way, if i was a subscriber to freudian thought (or whoever's psychological theory this is), i'd probably say that you're homophobic and perhaps a repressed homosexual given the vehemence with which you've been denying same-sex attraction. > The reason > girls touch eachother and act all "girly" is because they're girls. that's QUITE an oversimplification. that's like saying the sky is blue because it's blue. that's ridiculous. > This may > be a little suprising, but there are differences between males and females, > in fact there are HUGE differences. You can sit in front of a little boy or > little girl with a toy truck and a doll and the boy will take the truck and > the girl will take the doll. That's just how it is. you are completely wrong. do you honestly think that if two little kids who had never seen a truck or a doll before just sat down, the girl would intuitively go for the doll, and the boy for the truck? that's ludicrous. do you know that in other cultures little kids don't play with dolls and trucks at all? or that dolls are actually religious objects rather than objects to play with? there's nothing inherent about kids that make them play with certain things. the fact is that most adults give girls dolls and boys trucks, so the kids learn that they're supposed to play with those things. when i was a kid, i hated barbie, and i loved g.i.joe. does that mean i'm masculine or confused or something? no, i just thought dolls were stupid and boring, and g.i.joes had lots of cool little parts. > Girls like to giggle and > touch and stuff that girls do, guys like to hang out and slap eachother high > fives. It has nothing to do with society, it's the way people are. Think > about it. What is society? Is it some big monster making people act a certain > way? Society is people, and people make their own society. As a general rule, > people have rejected homosexuality and embrace heterosexuality, because > that's what they want, not because "society" makes them. Let's get past this > illusion that society "hampers" people sexuality. again, you are absolutely wrong. you shouldn't make claims like this unless you've actually studied the subject. society, or rather, culture, is constantly being remade in usually small ways, but we primarily "inherit" our culture and must learn how to live in it when we are very young. children have to be taught what is good and proper because things like table manners, dress, toys, etc. aren't inherent in us as humans. by the time you're old enough to start having a memory, you've pretty much become acculturized unconsciously because for years, you've been watching your parents (or whoever raised you) and other people behaving in the society that you'll one day know inside out. culture is so ingrained in us that we can't even see it. we think the world is simply a certain way, because we can't imagine that it could be another way. in fact, as for homosexuality, while i believe that it has had negative connotations for quite some time, every once in a while something happens that makes people actively reconstruct it as bad. for instance, in the nineteenth century during the industrial revolution in europe, society was quite shaken up due to the massive class changes going on because of industrialization. the classes were shifting and people's ways of life were totally changing and being brought into question. as a result, people began to place emphasis on the family as the focus of stability, since to look outside the family at the social structure was to induce confusion. the family needed to be stronger than ever in this time of turbulence. and the family at this time, of course, was headed up by men, on whom a heavier burden fell to be leaders, to be strong for their families. homosexuality was thus a HUGE threat to the family and there was a conscious effort on the part of religious and political leaders to emphasize proper masculine behavior, which quite directly said that homosexuality was bad. after all, if all the men went off and found other men instead of "proper families," where would the society be? of course, that is an exaggeration, because most men aren't going to do that anyway, since i don't think that homosexuality is that rampant. however, that was the exaggerated sort of fear, the worst case scenario, for the leaders of the country (mainly great britain, i think), who needed to inspire strength in the men. so, actually, culture IS a very strong presence in our lives that changes the way we view so many things. another example is our conception of time. this is something that we don't question, right? the future is in front of us, the past is behind us. good things are yet to come. this is sort of an american ideal. well, in some other cultures around the world, the future is behind us, and the past is in front of us. the past is what you face. in yet other cultures, time is a river that flows past us and we remain standing still, whereas in the US we tend to view time as something that we move through. colors are different, too. in vietnam, for example, there's no distinction between green and blue. just like we call both light blue and navy blue simply shades of "blue", in their culture, green and blue are simply shades of one color. but can you imagine looking at leaves, and then looking at the sky, and seeing them as a continuum? no. because you learned colors in the united states, and you learned different names for those two colors, even though in reality they are just parts of the huge color spectrum. cultures are really quite fascinating. i suggest that if you go to college, you take some anthropology courses. it really opens you up to the world and makes you willing to question your own ideas and discover what you believe for yourself, rather than regurgitating ignorant and blind ideas of "truth." sincerely, kara garbe ------------------------------ End of eda-thoughts-digest V3 #144 **********************************