From: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org (eda-thoughts-digest) To: eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Subject: eda-thoughts-digest V1 #130 Reply-To: eda-thoughts@smoe.org Sender: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk eda-thoughts-digest Wednesday, August 19 1998 Volume 01 : Number 130 Today's Subjects: ----------------- ET: i forgot!! [moonsong@ix.netcom.com (Us)] ET: RE: hmmm... [Karen Miller ] ET: perfection [genben@usa.net] ET: Oh yeah [genben@usa.net] Re: ET: Re: Everything that is me ["Kevin Pease" Subject: ET: RE: hmmm... i mean why in the hell are we hurting are selves anbd calling are selves ugly anf fta and over weight ect. thats what i mean.. p.s.whats os hot about jon send me a pic if he's that hot what do you mean, Holly? We're just having a pretty damn interesting conversation if you ask me? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 20:42:26 From: genben@usa.net Subject: ET: perfection Hey, alright, so I'm really kinda upset that I've been working and drunk for the past few days and unable to respond to any of this. I almost got involved, but, oh, well, bygones. I just have one short thing to say here. When Sam asked 'What is Perfection?' I thought about something that I truly beleive and I think really fits into this discussion. We are all perfect, because there is only one of each of us, and therefore there is no standard by which to measure ourselves other than ourselves. (e.g.-Seth, you are perfect, because there is only one Seth, and therefore everything you do is perfect for Seth.) You can't lose! No matter what, you're perfect! Okay, everybody got that? We're all perfect, no question. You can't be less than anyone else, because they aren't you. Period. you are who you are, and if you are the only you, then how can you not be perfect. I feel like I'm doing a geometry proof or something here, with theorems and postulates, or a logic exercise. Assuming that (a) is unique, then (a) is perfect because there is no comparison between (a) and (b,c,d, et. al.). That's what I think, Ben ps- I'm really sorry to all who I owe mail to, I'm just fucking slow, that's all. ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 20:57:52 From: genben@usa.net Subject: ET: Oh yeah Hey, so I forgot about the poem I wrote today that I was going to send. I can't even remember the last time I posted a poem. It's just so beautiful outside today (these days are VERY few and far between in DC during the summer) that I had to share my feelings about it. I wish we could all go out on a picnic or something so we could share the day, but I guess this will have to do *wednesday* treacherous beauty saved from the imbalances of life fading colors brought vivid by the morning sky mechanical environment humanized by a cool breeze imperfect forms cast perfect shadows in the sunlight at 10:37 AM on a beautiful day So there you go. I hope your day is as pretty as mine has been =) Ben PS- I've never heard 'Iris' or the GooGoo Dolls at all for that matter. Is it really that good? Do I need to remedy this situation? ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:26:09 -0400 From: "Kevin Pease" Subject: Re: ET: Re: Everything that is me >>Seth Fulmer writes: >Well, the underside of the railing I would never paint. If it's not going >to be noticed, hurt someone, or help someone, then I don't see a reason in >doing it. You know, for a self-proclaimed perfectionist, that's an awfully "laissez-faire" type of attitude. :) >But it is though. If an apple tree has 1 apple and 1 snake, I'm going to >leave it alone. But if it has a dozen apples, I'm going to give the snake >a chance and go towards the apples. If I can get rid of the snake or put >it to sleep or something while I'm at it, then that's better...but I take >the good and the bad and weigh it out. That works for you, and that's how you approach things... but why do you assume that everybody else must look at things that way? You can't see yourself as other people see you, and you can't make them see you as you see yourself... you can only put your good qualities on display, and hope that they'll like what they see. If they don't like it, F' them. >Well, I guess I have the attitude that you don't stop until either your >dead or you've attained your goal. Admittedly the goal that has been >coming back up again and again is my long term goal, but I have a lot of >short term goals as well. So why not be proud of your accomplishments towards those short-term goals? You've been busily telling us how you don't live up to this or that standard that you hold for yourself... what about the standards that you have lived up to, and the goals you have reached? Aren't those worth mentioning, and being proud of? If you achieve all your goals by the time you're 25, then you've set your sights way low, anyway. Nobody's achieved all their goals here, I don't think... and if they have already, I'd suggest they go out and get some new goals. :) >Also, I don't obsess on my bad qualities so >much as devalue my good qualities. Ok, people(my mom and grandmom) tell >me that I'm good with computers. But they're also people that have no >clue where the power button is(no offense to my mom and grandmom of >course). And those people make up a good portion of the population, Seth. Trust me when I say this, there are people at the computer company where I work now that wouldn't know where the power button was without three calls to the IS department and a call to tech support. :) Computers are still very much a new field, and there's a lot of people out there that don't know their asses from their elbows when it comes to a computer. If you have computer skills, be proud of them. >There are a LOT of other people who can program MUCH better than >I am...so my abilities aren't very useful if someone can better me. Well, that's assuming that there's only one job available in the computer industry, and one computer available to program on, and all that. If you have skills in programming, you will be valuable to a computer company - you don't have to be able to program the "Perfect Operating System" in your spare time over the space of a week... (I'd respectfully submit that the people who can do so are also lacking in a lot of crucial areas, as well... most noticeably, personal hygiene & social skills.) If you can program, and program well, then your skill is valuable, period. Look at me, I couldn't program my way out of a wet paper bag with half a dozen holes already in it, and I'm still working in computers - I write test plans, release notes, and organize test runs of the software, which are a couple of things that I've found I'm actually pretty good at, and can do fairly easily. If I'm valuable to someone in the computer industry, I have no doubts that you'll find a company out there that will snap you right up. >I knew I would be happy making a lot of money as a computer programmer and >I was right about that over Co-Op just this past Fall and winter. I've >simulated it out in my mind, watched people(in real life) go about their >daily business(so I know how it's supposed to go), and now I'm pretty >sure, that unless my values change, I probably would not be happy(at least >not yet) in a marriage situation. Wait, you mean you got a job that paid well with your "worthless" computer skills? Hmm... maybe I'm not smoking as much crack as you think. :) I still think that you're making an awful lot of assumptions about things when you "simulate it out" in your mind. No matter how hard you try not to, in our minds, we're always going to try to glamorize things, and make it fit our expectations. There's a lot more to living the life than just storyboarding it in your head. And who knows, you may have been watching people on an exceptionally good week? The only way you'll really know whether or not it's for you is by actually going out, taking a risk, and trying it out. >Pretty much because even though that is great and all...but it's not 100% >what I want so it's not good enough. I mean...my dad, if he orders a >steak and it's not the way he asked for it, he'll send it back. I don't >like steak that much(unless my dad makes it), but if I'm in the right >mood, I'll send it back. There's a very big difference between a steak and a life, though. :) You can't tell your parents, "Take me back - this isn't what I wanted." There's nothing wrong with wanting better things in your life, but to refuse to accept (or to devalue) the happiness and goodness that's in front of you in the hopes of something better "somewhere down the line" is sort of silly. >Oh, I'm happy as anything too...I don't have a car or a girlfriend(never >had one, never will have one), Is this a case of - "don't want one?" or "none will want me?" If it's the first, well, okay, I guess we can't force that. :) But if it's the second, again, I think you're undervaluing your own good qualities. Obviously, you're a fairly sensitive, intelligent guy, I've seen you crack jokes, so I'm assuming that means you have a sense of humor, and you're certainly literate. Right there, while that may not make you James Bond, it certainly makes you worthy of *somebody's* notice. >But at times, just seeing that brick wall at the end of >the tunnel instead of that light in my future really makes my day go >dim...Life just recycles itself. You do the same thing day after day, >with a vacation every now and then. Finally, you die sometimes with >people spitting in your coffin even. That brick wall I think is present in your mind more than it is a real obstacle to any future happiness. I've never had a day run exactly the same as the day before (well, there was the couple of days after I had my wisdom teeth extracted, and I was under the influence of severe Tylenol with codeine, but that was the drugs, it had to be the drugs. :), yes, a lot of the motions are the same, but there's a whole lot of room for variation. >I'm laid back as well. I don't really care anyway if someone reads my >poetry. It's to get my feelings out a lot of time. And yet I find myself thinking that the "who cares" attitude is more of a defense against hearing anything critical said about it. It can be scary revealing something of yourself to others, and you can get mule kicked in the teeth sometimes, but if you stay in hiding all the time, then nobody will notice you because they're going to think you don't want to be noticed. The potential benefits more than justify the risks of some insensitive ass making fun of your writing. >I get upset sometimes >because if I wanted to, I could sit in my home, go to work/school, or out >to the movies by myself and if I don't call my friends, they won't call >me. I went a month and a half last summer and when I finally called my >friends they said they were trying to get in touch with me. But how do you know they're not sitting at home saying, "Gee, I wish Seth would give me a call, I want to do something tonight, but I bet he's not home?" It takes two people to communicate, and if you're sitting at home waiting for someone to call you, then you're not communicating... don't waste time dancing around with protocol about who should call whom - if you want to do something, call up your friends, and tell them, "Hey, let's do something tonight!" Simple as that. >Because it's more useful. Let's say the world was plunged into a war >suddenly...That person who can play soccer...his skills can be adapted to >war. Poetry might, but even so, as I was saying to someone the other >day...I don't want to be the "understudy", the backstage person who is >useful but isn't noticed. I want someone to be able to say "Seth Did >that!"(and it be something I can be proud of instead of evading >punishment :) hehe) Actually, there's a lot of room for literary types in a wartime situation, as propagandists, journalists, and other "public relations" types of jobs. And really, what's more useful - somebody who writes a propaganda pamphlet that causes 50,000 enemy troops to surrender (thereby saving their lives, and the lives of the other soldiers they would have had to fight), or some hardcore GI Joe who used to play soccer who goes out and kills 5 men and grows studly chin stubble? There's a need and a purpose for any skill someone has, don't kid yourself. Kevin - ---------- Kevin Pease kbpease@boston.crosswinds.net (ICQ UIN: 3106063) (AOL Instant Messenger: kbpease) http://www.crosswinds.net/boston/~kbpease "I feel like a quote out of context, withholding the rest, So I can be for you what you want to see; I got the gestures, sounds, I got the timing down, It's uncanny, yeah you'd think it was me; Do you think I should take a class to lose my southern accent? Did I make me up, or make a face 'til it stuck? I do the best imitation of myself..." -----(Ben Folds Five)----- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:58:02 -0400 From: "Seth D. Fulmer" Subject: Re: ET: Re: Everything that is me Ya know...unless there's any problem out there, I don't see why we can't continue this on the list. This seems like a good discussion and if it can help, I'm interested in working it through. At 03:26 PM 8/19/98 -0400, Kevin Pease wrote: > You know, for a self-proclaimed perfectionist, that's an awfully >"laissez-faire" type of attitude. :) Well, what good is it going to do me or anyone else if a part of it that's not going to be seen is painted. I mean...if someone specifically asks for it to be painted then I'd paint it but until that point, to my knowledge it's not helping or hurting anyone. > That works for you, and that's how you approach things... but why do you >assume that everybody else must look at things that way? You can't see >yourself as other people see you, and you can't make them see you as you see >yourself... you can only put your good qualities on display, and hope that >they'll like what they see. If they don't like it, F' them. I don't really care how they look at things. I mean...when I'm in public, like at a party or something, I could care less what Sally over in the corner or Joe who just walked in thinks about me, or my behavior. I care what I see me do and if I would be disgusted by someone that did the same things then I would stop(or not even do them if they're that obvious). :) > So why not be proud of your accomplishments towards those short-term >goals? You've been busily telling us how you don't live up to this or that >standard that you hold for yourself... what about the standards that you >have lived up to, and the goals you have reached? Aren't those worth I haven't achieved any goals yet. I've come close to a lot but as it's a common euphanism..."Closeness only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades" :) >mentioning, and being proud of? If you achieve all your goals by the time >you're 25, then you've set your sights way low, anyway. Nobody's achieved >all their goals here, I don't think... and if they have already, I'd suggest >they go out and get some new goals. :) My goals are still in the status of being achieved...getting a girlfriend/wife, having a successful carreer...and I could go on and on really > And those people make up a good portion of the population, Seth. Trust >me when I say this, there are people at the computer company where I work >now that wouldn't know where the power button was without three calls to the >IS department and a call to tech support. :) Computers are still very much >a new field, and there's a lot of people out there that don't know their >asses from their elbows when it comes to a computer. If you have computer >skills, be proud of them. I can't use them as what they need computer programmers for...I don't want to do that(i.e..Year 2000 bug fixing)...I mean...For what it's worth, my computer's safe from the bug and all the rest of the computers in the world can go to &#@#. What I want to do, game programmer for like Nintendo, Squaresoft, Sega, etc....I can't get a job for them until I get out of college but still...it's not rocket science. Any 2 year old can use a computer and it ashames me that my mom looks at me boggle-eyed when I say "Mom, I just bought myself 2 MB of RAM" and she's like "You bought 2 what of what?". > Well, that's assuming that there's only one job available in the >computer industry, and one computer available to program on, and all that. >If you have skills in programming, you will be valuable to a computer >company - you don't have to be able to program the "Perfect Operating >System" in your spare time over the space of a week... (I'd respectfully >submit that the people who can do so are also lacking in a lot of crucial >areas, as well... most noticeably, personal hygiene & social skills.) If Well, I'll have to agree with you on the Perfect Operating system thing but that would be the sort of thing I'd enjoy doing. Yeah, I take showers but like my one friend and I tried to make a text adventure game overnight once...We got almost done but we fell asleep at like 5 AM so it was a complete failure of an experiment. > Wait, you mean you got a job that paid well with your "worthless" >computer skills? Hmm... maybe I'm not smoking as much crack as you think. >:) I got a job through the University as a CoOP internship experience. I learned everything I needed to know on the job and everyone on the job thought I was a genius because when I left, I was the only one who knew how to use the language that I, myself learned in the first place...It wasn't that difficult. I'm sure a student in elementary or middle school could have handled the project as well. > I still think that you're making an awful lot of assumptions about >things when you "simulate it out" in your mind. No matter how hard you try >not to, in our minds, we're always going to try to glamorize things, and >make it fit our expectations. There's a lot more to living the life than >just storyboarding it in your head. And who knows, you may have been >watching people on an exceptionally good week? The only way you'll really >know whether or not it's for you is by actually going out, taking a risk, >and trying it out. I think we're getting each a different picture of "simulate". Like, when my friend Steve(a brother from my chapter), another brother and I went to the movies Sunday night,...heck...any time I go with him driving, I'm running through what possibly could happen and how to resolve the situation. It's only a short time in the future but this is so that if something would come up we could fix it. Well, in my free time, I take a situation that I've been in, say a party that I was at recently...and reform the sequence of events in my mind. Then, doing that possibility analization, I go through until I reach a "perfect solution"...and until I do, I correct what I did over and over. There have been situations that I realized that I just could never fix so I stopped after a while...but I do that as well with movies, family members, friends, etc. When I'm reading a book or watching a movie, In my mind, I'm actually in the movie. Admittedly I haven't been through every situation so I'd really like to go through some of them to find out if my simulations were correct...like my simulation of having a baby and my simulation of my first kiss....not that the first will ever happen(nor do I ever want it to happen) :) hehe > There's a very big difference between a steak and a life, though. :) >You can't tell your parents, "Take me back - this isn't what I wanted." >There's nothing wrong with wanting better things in your life, but to refuse >to accept (or to devalue) the happiness and goodness that's in front of you >in the hopes of something better "somewhere down the line" is sort of silly. Well, I did tell my mom several times already that I regretted that she ever had me. I wish she would have had an abortion January or February of 1977...She just slaps me or ignores me and walks away. > Is this a case of - "don't want one?" or "none will want me?" If it's >the first, well, okay, I guess we can't force that. :) But if it's the >second, again, I think you're undervaluing your own good qualities. Actually, it's more of the 2nd but partly the first. I've made a declaration upon my 20th birthday that if I didn't have even 1 date by my 30th birthday, I wouldn't accept a date request from even a goddess afterwards. Admittedly that would cramp things up a bit if like the day afterwards, I became beautiful and someone asked me out but that's the price I pay. >Obviously, you're a fairly sensitive, intelligent guy, I've seen you crack >jokes, so I'm assuming that means you have a sense of humor, and you're >certainly literate. Right there, while that may not make you James Bond, it >certainly makes you worthy of *somebody's* notice. Well, like you were saying in another email about being laid back and stuff...well, I was thinking about how I react in a Party situation and why so. Well, basically I tend to hang with people I know or sit by myself because if I walk up to someone, talk to them and they ask me something like "Who the h&#@ are you?" or "Why should I talk to you?" like I've been asked in one form of another...ya know, those "Why" questions...I'd have no reasons. There is absolutely no reason anyone should speak to me or anyone else. Now, I could be a wisea$$ and make some crack about something but that's not me :) > That brick wall I think is present in your mind more than it is a real >obstacle to any future happiness. I've never had a day run exactly the same >as the day before (well, there was the couple of days after I had my wisdom >teeth extracted, and I was under the influence of severe Tylenol with >codeine, but that was the drugs, it had to be the drugs. :), yes, a lot of >the motions are the same, but there's a whole lot of room for variation. Well, even going to work every day...even if you go a different way each day...isn't enough change. It's still the same ol' boring day. I'm looking for adventure which I got every now and then in my job this past fall, but still not enough. A couple of weeks ago in July, I went to see an up-and-coming singer/songwriter and I had no clue how to get there except what train stop to go to and then that it was by a mall(a friend from my chapter told me that). I went, and thought I'd look and if I didn't find it at least I got an adventure out of it. I looked, I didn't find it at first so I went to see a movie. Afterwards I found I had an hour to blow so I looked more and found the singer's gig. I got a movie and a gig out of it. That sort of adventure....the sort where you're a little afraid but more curious and afterwards you want to do it again but in a different way. > And yet I find myself thinking that the "who cares" attitude is more of >a defense against hearing anything critical said about it. It can be scary >revealing something of yourself to others, and you can get mule kicked in >the teeth sometimes, but if you stay in hiding all the time, then nobody >will notice you because they're going to think you don't want to be noticed. >The potential benefits more than justify the risks of some insensitive ass >making fun of your writing. I see what you mean...but still somebody telling me they like a certain poem...still does me no satisfaction because that's not what I wrote the poem for. Someone told me the other day that they liked this one poem and I REALLY wanted to tell that person "But that poem sucked...Like this poem better"(as an imperative rather than a request)...That isn't me so I didn't do it but it bugs me when people like other stuff that I didn't intend...and in reality I wrote the literature(poetry and compositions) for the purposes of feelings not getting recognition. > But how do you know they're not sitting at home saying, "Gee, I wish >Seth would give me a call, I want to do something tonight, but I bet he's >not home?" It takes two people to communicate, and if you're sitting at >home waiting for someone to call you, then you're not communicating... don't >waste time dancing around with protocol about who should call whom - if you >want to do something, call up your friends, and tell them, "Hey, let's do >something tonight!" Simple as that. Well, the thing is...Even now, I'm ALWAYS calling them up and setting things up. They're always telling me "Oh, I'm too tired" or "I don't have money"(so I offer to pay for them), or some other excuse...and this summer I've set up 2 outings and the one person that didn't go to either of them set up one of his own that I went to...Andy(my one friend back home) says to page him but when I do he never returns a call. That brother Evelyn from my fraternity lives in Plattsburgh, NY and she wants me to call her but when I call a girl up, it's like "Why am I calling? Why am I wasting $40 of my parents(or my) phone bill?" > Actually, there's a lot of room for literary types in a wartime >situation, as propagandists, journalists, and other "public relations" types >of jobs. And really, what's more useful - somebody who writes a propaganda >pamphlet that causes 50,000 enemy troops to surrender (thereby saving their >lives, and the lives of the other soldiers they would have had to fight), or >some hardcore GI Joe who used to play soccer who goes out and kills 5 men >and grows studly chin stubble? There's a need and a purpose for any skill >someone has, don't kid yourself. Well, soccer does have a use and poetry does have a use as well as you showed...but even a propagandist...do you really think if that pamphlet caused the troops to surrender worked...(or if it didn't) that the person who made it would get the credit? I doubt it. :=) Seth Fulmer mailto:usfulmer@mcs.drexel.edu mailto:st96t879@post.drexel.edu mailto:kaosking@voicenet.com webpages: http://www.voicenet.com/~kaosking Cool Quotes and stuff :) "So don't tell me why he's never been good to you So don't tell me why he's never been there for you Don't you know that why is simply not good enough Oh...So, just let me try and I will be good to you Just let me try and I will be there for you I'll show you why is so much more than good enough" - "Good enough", Sarah McLachlan ------------------------------ End of eda-thoughts-digest V1 #130 **********************************