From: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org (eda-thoughts-digest) To: eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Subject: eda-thoughts-digest V2 #123 Reply-To: eda-thoughts@smoe.org Sender: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-eda-thoughts-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk eda-thoughts-digest Thursday, April 29 1999 Volume 02 : Number 123 * If you ever wish to unsubscribe, send an email to * eda-thoughts-digest-request@smoe.org with ONLY * the word unsubscribe in the body of the email * . * PLEASE :) when you reply to this digest to send a post TO the list, * change the subject to reflect what your post is about. A subject * of Re: eda-thoughts-digest V2 #xxx or the like gives readers no clue * as to what your message is about. Today's Subjects: ----------------- ET: poems [winters ] ET: guns kill people [winters ] Re: ET: guns kill people ["Chris Sylvester" ] Re: ET: guns kill people [Trexd5@aol.com] Re: ET: guns kill people ["Kevin B. Pease" Subject: ET: poems untitled i'm trapped in this small room with tubes up my nose and medicene flowing through my veins (i'm alone) a flower arrangement given to me by a stalker pieces of me are going into these beige walls this nondiscriptive comformed square is killing my soul and i wonder, how did i even get here? it's at times like these when your wearing a blue smock that doesn't cover the back fully times like these when you re forced to think about breathing, isolation and death it's times like these when i want to run naked around these dull halls and put life back into the hospital the fear that entered my toenails 24 hours ago when my oxygen was a thousand miles from my body i felt an unfateful shiver a fear that i have denied for years how i wish i didn't feel 11 again with parents crying and balloons losing air how i wish i wasn't staring at my mundane expression from the dusty mirror, how i wish this wasn't my reflection taking pieces of me into these beige walls i want out. REACTION i tried to dial your number today my fingers trembling and weak i couldn't recall the last 4 digits so i just hung up if only i could find the strength inside to take back my reaction to the words that you used on me. LOSING MYSELF i prositute myself just so i can receive a smile from your eyes those algae colored empty openners to the soul i know you feel nothing but my breasts yet i still search for some smile twinkling back at me the passion in the laundry room padded by dirty clothes means nothing to you i stare at you wasting your life away there is nothing i can do or say but listen in my silence in hope you will see why my kisses are more then stimulants to someting bigger to come but my worries and fears are hitting me, the realization that i will be the one who will get hurt the one who runs into fetal position under the coffeetable with a bong on top instead of a 7-11 french vaniella steyromfoam cup my morals turning into mold inside of your orange carpet how i just want to melt away right here because deep down i want you to stare (at only me) & notice the pain that i have endured i want you to hold onto me and be the man who you aren't. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 00:57:38 -0700 From: winters Subject: ET: guns kill people ummm.... the whole point of a handgun is to kill another person. not a single one of those pipe bombs killed anyone at the school. the guns did. i doubt they could have killed so many people by knives. countries like england and canada constantly show the violance rate going down, because they see the point of guns. and why guns shouldn't be in society. lets say you have an unloaded gun, in a box, the key in the other side of the house, child proof. everything is the way it is supposed to be. this is a psychological thing, it can't help you. some evil person sneaks into your home, you wont have time anyway to get the gun and everything. it's all in the mind. get a dog. get a secruity system, but don't get a gun. people kill people with guns. little children kill themselves playing with daddy's guns. big men think they are slick and cool, they go out and hunt with guns. how can that possibly be a sport? it's compeletly unequal. it's violance. every 10 hours someone dies in this country from a gun shot. most of the time accidental, maybe the shot was meant there, but the person that triggered it didn't mean death. what i'm trying to say is, is it really worth having a gun for your own psychological protection (bad karama anyone?) so that you can have that second admendment the right to bare arms? we don't have militia's anymore, it's a pointless law. it's saying it's perfectly legal to kill someone. that's the point of a hand gun. with every gun, in ten hours someone will die. it doesn't equal up. just think, is it really worth it? england had guns like we do. it's a smaller country, so not to the extent. but england had the problems, and they stopped the problems. it's very rare to hear about gun deaths in england.it happens, but people aren't desensitised to it like we are here. just something to think about. kat ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:26:13 PDT From: "Chris Sylvester" Subject: Re: ET: guns kill people 1) guns are not meant only for killing. i'm a very avid TARGET SHOOTER myself. i spend 4 hrs a week shooting my daisy 853sporter at a paper target. any gun can also be purchased for shooting a target. that's what the NRA and ASAS(USA Shooting) leagues are all about. olympic shooters: clay shooting with shotguns. i just wanted to make that point clear: GUNS HAVE ALTERNATE USES 2)we don't keep our gun locked up with the ammo on the other side of the house. it's in a readily accessible location. we also have a dog, but if the bad guy has a gun, he'll just kill my dog. then, i'd hunt his arse down and kill him in a more brutal way than shooting would ever be. i love my dog. she's my best friend, and confidant. face it: guns are a nessicary evil (sp doesn't really matter). 3)what's wrong with hunting? God created animals. God created man. God gave man authority over animals. Man can kill animal for food. It's simple really. 4)the right to keep and bear arms does NOT grant the right for murder. it grants the right to protect ourselves, shoot targets, hunt, and it helps us keep another right: the right to not have soldiers quartered in our homes. as long as society is armed, the government cannot become tyrannical. we are protected. take away the protection, and it all falls apart. 5)the bombs didn't DIRECTLY kill anybody (that the biased media has told us....), but the fear and panick they caused distracted the innocent people, making them easier targets for the two people with guns. 6)those guns don't scare me. it takes the psycho behind the muzzle to kill me. a gun can't get up off a table, come find me, and shoot me. it takes a person to do that. i hope i've enlightened you, or started an interesting debate, at least. ~Chris, the angel who'se just learning to fly _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:07:13 EDT From: Trexd5@aol.com Subject: Re: ET: guns kill people Guns may kill people.... but so no knives... and so but bats... and other things... If you take away guns you only loose a form a protection.... People are going to use other weapons it doesnt matter if guns are there or not.... If the guns are taken away then you take away one of our rights.... And thats not what our country stands for... Thats why the havnt mad Abortion illegal yet... Because we have the freedom of choice... Just like we have the right to bare arms... !!!!!!!!!! Taking away guns isnt going to do any good..... ~Dan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:53:36 -0400 From: "Kevin B. Pease" Subject: Re: ET: guns kill people >> Chris Sylvester writes: > 1) guns are not meant only for killing. [...] > GUNS HAVE ALTERNATE USES Entirely true... a gun is a gun is a gun, and the gun is, in and of itself, a totally inert piece of metal, it's the intent behind the use of the tool that makes it dangerous. But, the tool is made to fire a penetrating projectile at high speeds at a target the shooter chooses. The problem comes in when people decide to point that projectile at another human being. And, people being people, you can't rely on everyone to do the responsible, sensible thing. And the problem is, a gun makes it *very very* easy to act on a stupid whim and hurt someone. You can't go out and buy a gun that will "only" fire at a paper target, can you? They have alternate uses, but the primary, original purpose behind the development of guns was as a weapon, and they always will primarily be weapons... the development of gunpowder did not bring about the advent of the rod and gun club, my friend. >[...] face it: guns are a necessary evil (sp doesn't really matter). I won't even get into this point. Ain't no such thing as a "necessary" evil, if you ask me. > 3)what's wrong with hunting? God created animals. God created man. > God gave man authority over animals. Man can kill animal for food. > It's simple really. This point presupposes a belief that: a) God exists. b) God created man. c) God gave man dominion over the animals. I'm not going to bust on your particular set of beliefs, but this point doesn't really further your argument about guns. I'm not all that religious, and I'm not a hunter, so this does very little to convince me. Honestly, I'd much rather get my meat at the market if I want a hamburger... why go out and chase it and kill it if I don't have to? And for the record, I've shot guns (M16 several times, and a 9mm and an M60 once each) on more than one occasion, and didn't really find it all that pleasurable, either... the actual range firing was pretty boring. Here's a typical range firing exercise with an M16: Lay facedown or sit down on hard packed dirt & rocks. Wait. Load magazine. Wait. Chamber round. Wait. Squeeze trigger 20 times. Wait. Reload. Wait. Chamber round. Wait. Squeeze trigger 20 times. Wait. Walk down range to retrieve target. Begin cleaning. Oh yeah... that's a thrill a minute... it's *almost* as much fun as collecting the rare 33 cent US stamp... and don't even get me started on the cleaning... by the time THAT was done, I was wishing I had been one of the targets. So, what can we learn from this? Firing guns is primarily a very boring activity that offers about as much visceral excitement as watching paint dry... personally, I'd rather be watching the Dawson's Creek, and I really don't like Dawson's Creek. :) > 4)the right to keep and bear arms does NOT grant the right for > murder. it grants the right to protect ourselves, shoot targets, > hunt, and it helps us keep another right: the right to not have > soldiers quartered in our homes. as long as society is armed, the > government cannot become tyrannical. we are protected. take away the > protection, and it all falls apart. Several points here, and let's be factual about it. The second amendment reads: "A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." First: I see the words "Security," and "Well Regulated Militia". Where does hunting and shooting targets come in there? Those are luxuries, not necessities. Second: A militia in colonial times was analogous to today's armed services... look at it this way, if the government decides it's going to be tyrannical, it's not going to call out the military and issue them muskets, it's going to give them tanks, and machine guns, and rockets, and bombs, and it's going to be tyrannical no matter how many bb guns you've got. Ever see the effect of small arms fire (smaller than say, an M60) on an armored vehicle? (Hint: It's exactly NONE... sure you may scare one or two of the guys inside for a moment, but you're not going to *stop* them.) SO, if a militia is necessary to preserve us from the depredations of our government that's about to tyrannize us, how come I can't go out and buy an Abrams tank, or an F-16, or a Stinger missile, or an AT-4 rocket to preserve the security and freedom of my country? If the government wanted to tyrannize us, it would've tyrannized us already. Third: The third amendment is the one that deals with quartering soldiers in private homes, and it actually says it shall only be done in times of war "in a manner prescribed by law." If a squad of soldiers with weapons shows up at your house and says, "we're staying here or we're shooting you," I don't care how good a shot you are, if they want to live in your house, they're going to live in it... you have two choices - deal with it and live, or argue it and die. Personally, my brother's a B-52 pilot... I've never felt the urge to throw him out, he's always welcome at my place. :) > 5)the bombs didn't DIRECTLY kill anybody (that the biased media has > told us....), but the fear and panic they caused distracted the > innocent people, making them easier targets for the two people with > guns. Ever try firing at a target that's moving unpredictably while you're surrounded by all sorts of chaos? Those bombs that caused panic may very well have saved more than a few lives... if the students were panicking and running around, they weren't easy targets by any means... staying cool and level-headed under fire is great if you have something to fight back with... if you don't, running like a maniac isn't such a bad alternative. Of course, with a shotgun, you don't have to be a good shot, you just have to be reasonably close... so this point could very well be moot. > 6)those guns don't scare me. it takes the psycho behind the muzzle > to kill me. a gun can't get up off a table, come find me, and shoot > me. it takes a person to do that. Hey, I'll be brave enough to admit it... guns scare me. The thought that any moment some psychopath could pick up a weapon and kill me, or someone I love - I just don't like it. Yes, the same psychopath could come at me with a knife, or a lead pipe, or a damned letter opener... and yes,they could conceivably kill me with a knife, or a lead pipe, or a letter opener. But it's going to be much harder for them to do so. Why make their craziness easier to act on? Just because "it could still happen" doesn't mean that we should make it easy to do. Kevin - ---------- Kevin Pease kbpease@boston.crosswinds.net ICQ UIN: 3106063 AOL IM: kbpease http://www.crosswinds.net/boston/~kbpease/ "And I can't help but remember you / Morning high, midnight low / I don't want to dance with your memory / But somehow I can't let you go..." ---(Chris Knight, "The Band Is Playing Too Slow")--- ------------------------------ End of eda-thoughts-digest V2 #123 **********************************