From: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org (ecto-digest) To: ecto-digest@smoe.org Subject: ecto-digest V14 #179 Reply-To: ecto@smoe.org Sender: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-ecto-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk ecto-digest Thursday, July 2 2009 Volume 14 : Number 179 To unsubscribe: e-mail ecto-digest-request@smoe.org and put the word unsubscribe in the message body. Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: I have learned the name of the enemy [Jon Wesley Huff ] oh autotune, you silly little plugin [paul kim ] Re: I have learned the name of the enemy [Gregory Bossert ] Re: Question For The Hive Mind [Sue Trowbridge ] Re: Question For The Hive Mind [Jon Wesley Huff ] Re: I have learned the name of the enemy [Bernie Mojzes ] artificial voice manipulation [Michael Pearce ] Re: Question For The Hive Mind [neal copperman ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 13:14:32 -0500 From: Jon Wesley Huff Subject: Re: I have learned the name of the enemy That's hilarious! I can't imagine why anyone would care which it was. Heh. I remember them making a big deal about Vocorder's when her album came out because it was the biggest use of it in a while. On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Steve VanDevender < stevev@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu> wrote: > Jon Wesley Huff writes: > > I thought the Believe effect was a Vocoder. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocoder > > Ah, but: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autotune > > says that while Cher's producers claimed they had used a vocoder they > were apparently just doing so to keep secret that they had done it with > autotune. > > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 2:09 AM, Steve VanDevender < > > stevev@hexadecimal.uoregon.edu> wrote: > > > > > In the past year or so I've noticed some popular songs use a > > > vocal effect that sounds kind of like flanging. And I really, really > > > hate it. It's painful to listen to. > > > > > > Thanks to the Nova Science Now episode I saw earlier this evening, I > > > found out it's egregious abuse of "autotune" pitch correction. > Besides > > > a clip of the Cher song "Believe" which was apparently one of the > first > > > major examples of such abuse, they had clips from some other songs > which > > > showed this was exactly what I have been hearing and loathing. > > > Apparently it's a result of trying to do instantaneous pitch changes > > > with "autotune", rather than allowing some transition time when > > > changing from note to note. Although it also sounded like trying to > do > > > too much pitch correction also produced the effect I hate. > > > > > > So that's it. "Autotune" must be destroyed as a crime against music. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:35:58 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Question For The Hive Mind Hi, OK, so a friend of mine sent me this query and so far we've been unable to figure out the answer. I figure now it's time to get the ecto hive mind on the case. :) My friend was watching late-night tv a couple weeks ago and saw a musician whose name she missed, and she doesn't recall any lyrics, either. Now she doesn't remember which show it was either, as she was channel-surfing at the time. Here's her description of the artist: "She looked like a black-haired Twiggy with a cutesy-goth-influenced outfit on (no goth boots) with a big red rose, feathers and a picture of Edward Scissorhands on the shoulder. She played a guitar - no chords, just finger-picking. She had a few string players with her.... possibly a pianist. I have no recollection of any drums. .... there may have been some, but they were used minimally if at all." My first thought was maybe Priscilla Ahn, but we've ruled her out. Any ideas? Meredith :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:15:55 -0700 From: paul kim Subject: oh autotune, you silly little plugin I've found it interesting to see how Autotune has exploded into public discourse with T-Pain's usage of it in the past couple years...the handful of recent articles I saw in places such as the L.A. Times and online journals rarely if ever pointed out how long the software/hardware has been around and in use, and how prevalent it has been in the music industry. I know that I had just become aware of it around the time of Cher's "Believe" song and immediately thought that it was used in that case (although subsequent reports of it simply being a vocoder confused me). This was back in my Berklee days in the late 90's, and once I moved out here to L.A., I found that it was a required plugin for all Pro Tools systems in the studios. As others have stated, it is a tool and it can be used for good or for ill...when it's used for ill, hoo boy, makes you wanna smack someone, doesn't it? But its uses can be subtle as well. I'm neither a defender or a lover of it...I've used it, messed around with it a bit, didn't get comfortable with it before I stepped out of the music engineering thing. Still, I'd like to throw a few points out there: 1) Even really good, really trained singers may have their recorded performances Autotuned. You can run into the problem of spending too much time nuancing it so that every note is perfect, of course, but most of the time, when I was watching really talented engineers use it, they didn't nitpick the performance to death. What happened was they would take the comp'd vocal take (put together from the best parts of several different vocal takes), run it through the Autotune analyzer, and quickly nudge the notes to be a little closer to "perfect" while not making it strictly perfect. It wasn't a noticeable effect on single parts, but when you listened to vocal parts that were stacked or harmonized you could tell the difference: before the Autotune effect, the vocals sounded good; afterwards they were tighter and the harmonies popped. 2) I'm not sure how prevalent it's usage is outside of what I worked on...most of the music I was involved with was Hip-Hop, Rap, and R&B, so it might not be in constant use in, say, the indie rock or the singer-songwriter world for the purpose of tightening up a performance. But on nearly all the projects I was aware of in my studio days, it was invariably used by the engineer in this "sweetening" manner. 3) I have used Autotune on trumpet parts and bass parts, and I know others who have used it on other instruments, usually instruments that play single notes and not chords. 4) Autotune can and is used in live vocal performances...there's a standalone box that can sit in the rack of the Front of House mixer that you can run vocals through (or any instrument really, depending on what you're going for sonically). Dial in the settings, and it can subtly help the singer be in tune. 5) Of course, there are also the not-so-talented singers who HAVE to have this used on their vocals because otherwise you could never get a performance that was in-tune from them. It's very painful for me to hear those, especially on the radio...mostly I've heard them in movies and tv-shows where actors have to sing, and while they might have nice voices and be able to carry a tune, they need that extra help to get it to sound good. Useful tool? Can be. Used by tools? Sometimes. Fun to play with? Not when I was using it...it could be tedious. Paul ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:34:59 -0700 From: Gregory Bossert Subject: Re: I have learned the name of the enemy On Jul 1, 2009, at 12:09 AM, Steve VanDevender wrote: > So that's it. "Autotune" must be destroyed as a crime against music. you'll be glad to know that is a widely held opinion, in the music business and otherwise. so much so that Antares jokes about it itself: http://news.harmony-central.com/Product-news/Auto-Tune-Responds-to-Reports-of-its-Death it's extremely clever software, i should add, and can be used for good as well as evil. for example, i've used similar software to tweak an inexpensive, made-for-the-tourist-trade little marimba from Ghana into tune, and to match western instruments to a Balinese scale. recent versions of Antares Auto-Tune and Celemony Melodyne can be used very subtly, preserving vibrato and other deliberate pitch modifications and keeping formants in place while adjusting overall pitch. and they can be set for just a partial adjustment, instead of conforming 100% to an already out-of-tune equal-tempered scale. this can be used in an (arguably) reasonable way, for example, to fix one clam of a note in an otherwise great performance. if that seems like cheating, well, ever since tape recorders were invented, people have been comping together vocals from multiple takes or doing spot overdubs. music isn't gymnastics -- if it sounds good on the recording, and listening to it makes you happy, the fact that the performance wasn't completely "natural" doesn't matter. until you see the live show, that is ;-) the Believe effect, though, where the effect is cranked to 100% and any glissando and vibrato is squished flat, well i'm with Steve: it's evil. i seem to recall a Buffy episode that made that case... there was a buzz at the time in the industry magazines from producers and engineers who were upset at the track because it gave away the whole Auto-Tune secret, and was so overdone that after that one song it was almost instantly a clichi. not enough so, alas, that it doesn't still pop up on tracks. a good deal of modern popular music is fundamentally constructed in the studio. even in the earliest days of recording, before multitracking and editing, the choice of microphone placement created something new. artists like Bing Crosby and Frank Sinatra used the ability to boost a quiet vocal and the bass response caused by cardioid microphone proximity effect to create a whole new style of singing. things really exploded with Les Paul and overdubbing, Tom Dowd and his eight track systems, and came of age with the Beatles and George Martin around '65, creating music that *couldn't* be played live. i am all for that. people will always pick up a guitar and sing, and now there are also these new forms of music. you're as likely to get a good or bad song from either approach. so, don't blame Auto-tune, blame Cher. and producer Mark Taylor. and the six credited songwriters. and the radio stations that played the song to death. and Buffy's roommate. 'tah! - -g - -- www.suddensound.com -- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 15:12:15 -0500 From: Jon Wesley Huff Subject: Re: I have learned the name of the enemy I think what's just as sad as processing is when they cut and paste whole choruses. Sure, it's a way to cover-up a bum chorus in a recording session (although I think it's sad that some musicians apparently don't have time to re-record this) but for the most part it just makes the production bland. It's nice when even a chorus has a little bit of a different energy as you progress through a song. On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 12:49 PM, birdie wrote: > On Jul 1, 2009, at 7:27 AM, Bernie Mojzes wrote: > >> the interesting thing i've heard is that the dependence on autotune and >> other technologies that allow for very minute tweaking of sound is leading >> to a world in which people don't actually HAVE to train their voices or be >> precise musically - it'll get fixed later. which leads to a degradation of >> live performances, where people can't actually perform their own recorded >> work. >> > > > when digital software became available within post production for film, > some DP's had the attitude of "it can be fixed in post" - so if a scene was > shot slightly out of focus, no problem. > > What the hell? > > You gotta figure if you can't focus a camera, you shouldn't be working on > something dependent on focus that is costing millions to make. > > I mean, who hired that camera operator....... > > but so, digital, has lead to all kinds of people getting and having jobs > that work for less and have displaced really experienced & talented people. > > Film editors to singers. > > > Birdie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 16:41:34 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: oh autotune, you silly little plugin Hi, P-Kim just posted pretty much everything I was going to say about this ... I'm not an engineer so I've never used it myself, but I know of specific cases when Autotune has been used to tweak a stray note here and there. Even an accomplished vocalist can miss sometimes, and when expensive studio time is at a premium, if it comes down to doing an additional take or just tweaking that one oopsie, the choice is pretty much pre-made for some people. > 4) Autotune can and is used in live vocal performances...there's a > standalone box that can sit in the rack of the Front of House mixer that you > can run vocals through (or any instrument really, depending on what you're > going for sonically). Dial in the settings, and it can subtly help the > singer be in tune. I think if the world knew just how prevalent this is and on which tours it's been used on, the shock wave could impact the tides. Or just as likely nobody would care, like they don't care how much lip-synching goes on on those big flashy tours. Personally, I'd rather a vocalist attempt to do it live and get a little bit of help than just fake their way through the whole show... Meredith :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 13:47:15 -0700 From: Sue Trowbridge Subject: Re: Question For The Hive Mind Heh -- I actually caught this performance; it was Katie Melua on "Jimmy Kimmel Live" performing "If You Were a Sailboat." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2URkuLyykJ4 - --Sue On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 11:35 AM, meredith wrote: > Hi, > > OK, so a friend of mine sent me this query and so far we've been unable to > figure out the answer. I figure now it's time to get the ecto hive mind on > the case. :) > > My friend was watching late-night tv a couple weeks ago and saw a musician > whose name she missed, and she doesn't recall any lyrics, either. Now she > doesn't remember which show it was either, as she was channel-surfing at the > time. Here's her description of the artist: > > "She looked like a black-haired Twiggy with a cutesy-goth-influenced outfit > on (no goth boots) with a big red rose, feathers and a picture of Edward > Scissorhands on the shoulder. She played a guitar - no chords, just > finger-picking. She had a few string players with her.... possibly a > pianist. I have no recollection of any drums. .... there may have been some, > but they were used minimally if at all." > > My first thought was maybe Priscilla Ahn, but we've ruled her out. > > Any ideas? > > Meredith :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 15:55:01 -0500 From: Jon Wesley Huff Subject: Re: Question For The Hive Mind This might help narrow it down. It lists all the late night talk shows and their guests for the last few weeks. http://www.interbridge.com/lineups.html On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 1:35 PM, meredith wrote: > Hi, > > OK, so a friend of mine sent me this query and so far we've been unable to > figure out the answer. I figure now it's time to get the ecto hive mind on > the case. :) > > My friend was watching late-night tv a couple weeks ago and saw a musician > whose name she missed, and she doesn't recall any lyrics, either. Now she > doesn't remember which show it was either, as she was channel-surfing at the > time. Here's her description of the artist: > > "She looked like a black-haired Twiggy with a cutesy-goth-influenced outfit > on (no goth boots) with a big red rose, feathers and a picture of Edward > Scissorhands on the shoulder. She played a guitar - no chords, just > finger-picking. She had a few string players with her.... possibly a > pianist. I have no recollection of any drums. .... there may have been some, > but they were used minimally if at all." > > My first thought was maybe Priscilla Ahn, but we've ruled her out. > > Any ideas? > > Meredith :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 18:29:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Bernie Mojzes Subject: Re: I have learned the name of the enemy I'm reminded a bit of what Adam Stemple from Boiled in Lead said - "Pitch? Pitch is for wimps... If you're going to miss a note, miss it loudly." Also, trying to imagine applying the autotune beastie to Van der Graaf Generator - I imagine a couple minutes of Peter Hamill would have the thing smoking and shooting sparks. Being exactly on the mark all the time would be the death of music. If that was the goal, nobody would ever bend a note, and trombones would be outlawed... brni > I'm of two minds about this. > > On the one hand, I think training one's voice is important. To a certain > degree. For some things. Even here I'm wavering. I used to take lessons for > musicals and the like, so it's been ingrained in me pretty hard. On the > other, a great deal of my favorite artists haven't had formal training. And > it doesn't matter because their music absolutely backs it up. > > It's more psychological for me. I hear a song and my first question is "can I > trust this singer?" Which is troubling on several levels. > > The laziness aspect, I guess, is what frustrates me more. It's possible to > shoehorn a melody out of people who aren't even trying. (Yes, it is. There's > a popular video series on YouTube that does this with news anchors.) > > Quoting Bernie Mojzes : > >>> So that's it. "Autotune" must be destroyed as a crime against music. >> >> nonsense. it's just a tool. it's the misuse of it that should be condemned. >> if you want your song's narrator to be a robot, it's perfect. >> >> the interesting thing i've heard is that the dependence on autotune and >> other technologies that allow for very minute tweaking of sound is leading >> to a world in which people don't actually HAVE to train their voices or be >> precise musically - it'll get fixed later. which leads to a degradation of >> live performances, where people can't actually perform their own recorded >> work. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> brni >> >> i don't want the world, >> i just want your half. >> >> http://www.kappamaki.com/ >> http://brni.livejournal.com/ > - -- brni i don't want the world, i just want your half. http://www.kappamaki.com/ http://brni.livejournal.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 19:20:15 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: Question For The Hive Mind Hi, Sue Trowbridge wrote: > Heh -- I actually caught this performance; it was Katie Melua on > "Jimmy Kimmel Live" performing "If You Were a Sailboat." > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2URkuLyykJ4 Yes!! Thank you, mystery solved. Meredith :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 18:23:54 -0700 From: Michael Pearce Subject: artificial voice manipulation >the interesting thing i've heard is that the dependence on autotune and >other technologies that allow for very minute tweaking of sound is leading >to a world in which people don't actually HAVE to train their voices or be >precise musically - it'll get fixed later. which leads to a degradation of >live performances, where people can't actually perform their own recorded >work. Sort of like this: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a9c_1219341209 Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 21:43:14 -0600 From: neal copperman Subject: Re: Question For The Hive Mind Did you realize that is Sue's web page!! :) neal On Jul 1, 2009, at 2:55 PM, Jon Wesley Huff wrote: > This might help narrow it down. It lists all the late night talk > shows and > their guests for the last few weeks. > > http://www.interbridge.com/lineups.html > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 1:35 PM, meredith wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> OK, so a friend of mine sent me this query and so far we've been >> unable to >> figure out the answer. I figure now it's time to get the ecto hive >> mind on >> the case. :) >> >> My friend was watching late-night tv a couple weeks ago and saw a >> musician >> whose name she missed, and she doesn't recall any lyrics, either. >> Now she >> doesn't remember which show it was either, as she was channel- >> surfing at the >> time. Here's her description of the artist: >> >> "She looked like a black-haired Twiggy with a cutesy-goth- >> influenced outfit >> on (no goth boots) with a big red rose, feathers and a picture of >> Edward >> Scissorhands on the shoulder. She played a guitar - no chords, just >> finger-picking. She had a few string players with her.... possibly a >> pianist. I have no recollection of any drums. .... there may have >> been some, >> but they were used minimally if at all." >> >> My first thought was maybe Priscilla Ahn, but we've ruled her out. >> >> Any ideas? >> >> Meredith :) ------------------------------ End of ecto-digest V14 #179 ***************************